ABSOLUTE POWER - The Helen Clark Years.

[rainman]

P.l.a.g.i.a.r.i.s.m.

Skyryder

As in "a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work" (dictionary.com). Yep, that's my point. About Finn. Don't see where the same accusation can be delivered against me though? (puzzled look)

[Finn]

As in "a piece of writing that has been copied from someone else and is presented as being your own work" (dictionary.com). Yep, that's my point. About Finn. Don't see where the same accusation can be delivered against me though? (puzzled look)

This isn't an election idiot.

[rainman]

Getting a bit defensive huh? You don't need to try to prove anything to us. Best you focus on keeping that non-sustainable job post Sep.

Thanks for the good wishes. I agree the economic situation isn't looking too flash, but not to worry, I have a range of skills and options and I'm not afraid of hard work, so I won't starve even if the new govt prove worse than the present one

Of course, there's a chance a National govt post-Sep might make my job slightly easier, but it depends on their policies, which I've yet to see much of. I'm not having too many troubles now, nor are most of my customers, despite the many weaknesses of the evil crypto-Klarkist communist socialist dictatorship that I keep hearing about on KB....

[rainman]

This isn't an election idiot.

Well, yerss, that would involve voting, and stuff. I would ask what's your point but I'm not sure you have one, and I'm getting bored with this, so I'm off to do something more diverting with what's left of my evening.

Go for a ride or something, might make you less grumpy. I certainly plan to tomorrow (and it'll probably do wonders for my mental health too), think the weather should still be grand.

[Finn]

Thanks for the good wishes. I agree the economic situation isn't looking too flash, but not to worry, I have a range of skills and options and I'm not afraid of hard work, so I won't starve even if the new govt prove worse than the present one

Of course, there's a chance a National govt post-Sep might make my job slightly easier, but it depends on their policies, which I've yet to see much of. I'm not having too many troubles now, nor are most of my customers, despite the many weaknesses of the evil crypto-Klarkist communist socialist dictatorship that I keep hearing about on KB....

I doubt you would know the meaning of hard work. As for the evil crypto-Klarkist communist socialist dictatorship that you keep hearing about on KB, perhaps you should take note. These are real people from all walks of life who have had a guts full of an evil crypto-Klarkist communist socialist dictatorship. You've obviously got a hidden agenda and your so called "skills and options" rely heavily on leftist idealism.

Collected enough wood and supplies for winter?

[Finn]

Go for a ride or something, might make you less grumpy.

I'm pissed and the only bike I have left is a Street Magic until the MV is fixed. Kindly, my right wing friend has made well this summer and afforded himself the pleasure of an extra bike which he has graciously lent me for a trip to Gisborne tomorrow.

Also, I'd rather be grumpy than biter.

P.S. I thought you were off to do something with your evening...

[JimO]

For those of you interested in Politics or just a good read. Ian Wishart is about to release a book on Helen Clark.

Due to the introduction of Labours "Electoral Finance Bill", This book will probably be banned from sale within hours of its release. The author Ian Wishart may also be facing imprisonment once it hits the shelves.

You can secure yourself a copy by ordering online directly from the Investigate Magazine website. Once the book gets released, pre-ordered copies of the book will be released immediately.

But pre-order now, otherwise you most likely wont get a chance to see this book again.

http://www.investigatemagazine.com/newshop/enter.html

i will wait for the movie to come out

[Ixion]

I doubt you would know the meaning of hard work. As for the evil crypto-Klarkist communist socialist dictatorship that you keep hearing about on KB, perhaps you should take note. These are real people from all walks of life who have had a guts full of an evil crypto-Klarkist communist socialist dictatorship. You've obviously got a hidden agenda and your so called "skills and options" rely heavily on leftist idealism.

Collected enough wood and supplies for winter?

Arrggh. For the umpteenth time, the Labour government is not in any way Communist, more's the pity, nor is it even socialist.

A communist government would long ago have had Ms Clark and most of her cronies in front of a brick wall.

[rainman]

I doubt you would know the meaning of hard work.... You've obviously got a hidden agenda and your so called "skills and options" rely heavily on leftist idealism.

I strongly doubt you would know.

I'm pissed

That could explain it!

Hope you enjoy your ride to Gizzy.

Arrggh. For the umpteenth time, the Labour government is not in any way Communist, more's the pity, nor is it even socialist.

A communist government would long ago have had Ms Clark and most of her cronies in front of a brick wall.

I wholeheartedly agree. But for those of a simplistic bent it's obviously just easier to repeat the litany.... tax cuts good, Klark and Liarbour evil, EFA an assault on democracy, this is a dictatorship, only Teh Blue Team is any good, everything Teh Evil Kommunist Socialist Red Team does is rubbish... Far, far easier than thinking for oneself, of course. (To be fair, there are sometimes mirror images of this problem in "the other camp", just fewer of them in my experience).

Sadly, this level of sophistication will determine the outcome of the next election. NZ needs to grow up a little, methinks.

[Skyryder]

I strongly doubt you would know.



That could explain it!

Hope you enjoy your ride to Gizzy.



I wholeheartedly agree. But for those of a simplistic bent it's obviously just easier to repeat the litany.... tax cuts good, Klark and Liarbour evil, EFA an assault on democracy, this is a dictatorship, only Teh Blue Team is any good, everything Teh Evil Kommunist Socialist Red Team does is rubbish... Far, far easier than thinking for oneself, of course. (To be fair, there are sometimes mirror images of this problem in "the other camp", just fewer of them in my experience).

Sadly, this level of sophistication will determine the outcome of the next election. NZ needs to grow up a little, methinks.

Yep it's the same old rhetoric masqerading as political nouse stemming from the far right and pretending to be an intellectual opinion. If there was some stimulating comment that could remove itself from the misconception that this government is socialist, communist etc I'd join in the discussion but past experiance has proven that those that espouse such views are as blind and deaf to this, equally as much as those that they denegrate for having an opposite view.

Skyryder

[Rogue]

What !! Theres an election this year

[Oscar]

I strongly doubt you would know.



That could explain it!

Hope you enjoy your ride to Gizzy.



I wholeheartedly agree. But for those of a simplistic bent it's obviously just easier to repeat the litany.... tax cuts good, Klark and Liarbour evil, EFA an assault on democracy, this is a dictatorship, only Teh Blue Team is any good, everything Teh Evil Kommunist Socialist Red Team does is rubbish... Far, far easier than thinking for oneself, of course. (To be fair, there are sometimes mirror images of this problem in "the other camp", just fewer of them in my experience).

Sadly, this level of sophistication will determine the outcome of the next election. NZ needs to grow up a little, methinks.

Whilst we're thinking for ourselves...
Explain to us peasants how the EFA isn't an assault on democracy.
While yer at it, name one other Western Democracy that has anything like it.

[rainman]

Explain to us peasants...

I wouldn't call you a peasant (assuming from your tone that you see the term as pejorative), Oscar, I don't know you.

...how the EFA isn't an assault on democracy.

Democracy is a somewhat blurry concept, with many definitions, but picking Larry Diamond's definition of liberal democracy (via Wikipedia) as a hopefully uncontroversial starting point:
1. Electoral outcomes are uncertain, opposition vote is significant and no group that adheres to constitutional principles is denied the right to form a party and contest elections.
2. The military and other democratically unaccountable actors should be subordinate to the authority of elected civilian officials.
3. Citizens have multiple channels for expression and representation such as diverse independent associations and movements which they have the freedom to form and join.
4. Individuals have substantial freedom of belief, opinion, discussion, speech, publication, assembly, demonstration and petition.
5. There are alternative sources of information (including independent media to which citizens have politically unfettered access).
6. Executive power is constrained by the autonomy of the government institutions such as an independent judiciary , parliament and other mechanisms of horizontal accountability.
7. Civil liberties are effectively protected by an independent non-discriminatory judiciary whose decisions are respected and enforced by other centres of power.
8. Citizens are politically equal under the law.
9. Minority groups are not oppressed.
10. The rule of law protects citizens from human right abuses.
11. The constitution is supreme.

The arguments I've heard against the EFA centre on the effects on #4 - that is, it's a freedom of speech debate. The core functioning of our democracy is unaffected - which is a critical point. None of my core freedoms are materially impacted - I still have "substantial freedom of speech" (and I have lived in places where I was subjected to material restrictions in my democratic freedoms so I know of what I speak). Re freedom of speech, two main (usually ideologically informed) perspectives exist: one favours almost no restriction on electoral speech, the other wants, as I think Metiria Turei put it, to protect the equality of the ballot from the inequality of the wallet. This is not a clear-cut debate, as should hopefully be obvious, neither side is absolutely right/wrong, but it's worth mentioning that restrictions on electoral spending have been in place for some time. The new act changes the detailed rules in significant ways, but not the principles.

Bear in mind that the bill came about as a response to abuses seen during the 2005 election, and that it is (mainly?) intended to close the loopholes that made the Exclusive Brethren thing legally acceptable. As is typical of politicians, they've cocked up the implementation a bit (as can be seen by the speed with which the first amendment is being advanced), but the prinicple is at least defensible: I agree there should be limits on what can be spent to promote a party and candidate for election, and think all donations to parties should be transparent, so as to avoid improper influence. For clarity: I think the act should go further than it does in some areas.

Freedom of speech is a complex area made more complex by new media and other factors (probably why the act is such a mess in the end) and the act is certainly influenced by them what wrote it. But it's a big piece of law, and shrill denouncement of it as "an assault on democracy" is just dumb. What bits do you object to, and on what basis?

While yer at it, name one other Western Democracy that has anything like it.

That's a good question. Short answer is I don't know, I don't have the time to exhaustively study all other "Western Democracies" - in itself a debatable definition, but never mind - and establish what their exact electoral processes are. FECA 1971 and BCRA 2002 cover some of the same ground (very different ideology behind it though, look where that got them), and there are various other laws around that are in the general area. Why is it relevant though? Name one other country with the same nuclear legislation that we have.

[Skyryder]

Whilst we're thinking for ourselves...
Explain to us peasants how the EFA isn't an assault on democracy.
While yer at it, name one other Western Democracy that has anything like it.

The "Lost" Thirteenth Amendment
by Lisa Guliani

“…If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive, or retain any title of nobility or honor, or shall without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office, or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince, or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them.”
~ The 13th Amendment to the Constitution ~


You need to research (ggogle) the implications of this but according to many who have some knowledge of American jurisprudence the above is still law. Well you did ask 'for anything like it.'


Skyryder

[Sanx]

The "Lost" Thirteenth Amendment
by Lisa Guliani

“…If any citizen of the United States shall accept, claim, receive, or retain any title of nobility or honor, or shall without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office, or emolument of any kind whatever, from any emperor, king, prince, or foreign power, such person shall cease to be a citizen of the United States, and shall be incapable of holding any office of trust or profit under them, or either of them.”
~ The 13th Amendment to the Constitution ~


You need to research (ggogle) the implications of this but according to many who have some knowledge of American jurisprudence the above is still law. Well you did ask 'for anything like it.'

Wikipedia says differently. Although approved by the Senate and Congress, the proposed amendment was not ratified by enough states and so never got accepted as an amendment to the constitution. The Thirteenth amendment is the one banning slavery (which as an interesting aside, was only ratified by Kentucky in 1976).

Secondly, the not-quite-an-amendment bears absolutely no relation to the EFA, unless you want to go down the well-trodden (and completely unsubstantiated) path by saying that Don Brash was simply doing the bidding of some shadowy American overlords. The not-quite-an-amendment was designed to stop american citizens being given or holding titles in foreign countries, thus splitting such citizen's loyalty. Although the US has never banned its citizens from holding multiple citizenships (I thought it had, but was wrong) the Oath of Allegiance says contains something rather similar in meaning to the not-quite-an-amendment:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen…

But again - sod all similarity to the EFA. Oscar had it spot on - there is no other western democracy that has anything similar to the EFA. It's not so much the monetary limits imposed on campaigning, it's the differentiation between sitting MPs and everyone else and the deliberate setting of donation limits to just above what Labour received and well below what National received. Oh, and the limiting anonymous donations clause; some people claim that having to declare donations makes the system transparent. Well, yes to some extent, but in which case why do we have anonymous ballots? If it's transparency everyone wants, why aren't the parties and candidates each person voted for a matter of public record? Why did the 'transparency' provisions of the EFA only affect those aspects of political operation that Labour didn't like? Why wasn't the link between the Unions and Labour targetted, for instance? The 'transparency' argument is simply spin designed to give somewhat legitimise to Labour's barely-disguised attempt at perpetuating their grasp on power.