Motorcyclists in dice with death

[Ixion]

Diesel + motorbike + velocity MAY = crash.

Irrespective of who is riding. The likelihood diminishes with experience, training etc - but it never disappears.

Well, yes.

But, ROAD + motorbike + velocity MAY = crash. Irrespective of who is riding. The likelihood diminishes with experience, training etc - but it never disappears.

Diesel is just another factor that a biker needs to take into account. It will be there sooner or later, Assume it IS there. Like Enid.

Diesel isn't some 'get out of gaol free' card. "Oh, yeah I crashed. But there was DIESEL". As if "Diesel" was a magical incantation that excused all. It's just like saying " Oh yeah, I crashed. But there was a CORNER".

Just as the wise rider allows for the fact that a corner may turn out to be one of those blasted decreasing radius off camber bumpy bastards, and makes appropriate allowance for it, so the wise rider allows for the fact that a given road surface may have less than optimum adhesion. Won't work every time, to be sure. But diesel isn't an excuse. Just means that you missed a cue. Understandable, we will all sympathise, no one can pick it 100% of the time. But no different to any other crash cause. You, the rider, fucked up. End of story.

[Katman]

Diesel + motorbike + velocity MAY = crash.

And what is the one factor responsible for the velocity of a motorcycle?

(Clue; I don't mean the motor.)

[Big Dave]

Name some.

If the military wanted examples of how to fell motorcyclists they should study some of New Zealand's road works.

Chris from Wellington - who won damages for improper signposting causing him to crash - Court said so - that would be a good example.

They decided that the fault was not with him and that there was nothing reasonable that he could have done.


The reason I posted this and continue the debate is that for all the spanking on I do about how cool motorcycles are - every now and then I just like to step back and say - motorcycles are dangerous stuff.

Be aware - stop and think about it - every time you put the keys in the ignition.

And then let's go and chuck some wheelies.

[Katman]

every now and then I just like to step back and say this is dangerous stuff.

And then let's go and chuck some wheelies.

Says it all really.

[Big Dave]

And what is the one factor responsible for the velocity of a motorcycle?

You don't need to give me clues.

The answer, however is still that without locomotion of any sort, and regardless of who/m is in control, there is no equation.

[swbarnett]

Name some.

Sniper?

But that's being silly. Although it did happen to a cyclist on the Coatesville-Riverhead road a few years back. Thankfully only hit their upper arm.

Seriously though, I both agree and disagree that motorcycles aren't inherently more dangerous than cars. I think the point is that it is possible to create a set of circumstances that would cause even the safest, most experienced motorcyclist to be killed where a car driver would likely survive. However, the probability of those circumstances occurring is so infinitesimally minute that, to all practical purposes it is the rider that is the determining factor.

So, while it's fun to do thought experiments about artificial situations, in the real world I agree with you.

[Katman]

The answer, however is still that without locomotion of any sort, and regardless of who/m is in control, there is no equation.

If there is no rider on the bike there is no locomotion therefore no equation. The equation arises as soon as the rider is added.

[Katman]

So, while it's fun to do thought experiments about artificial situations, in the real world I agree with you.

Not just fun - it will help keep you alive. I have 'what if' scenarios playing in my head all the time when I'm on the bike.

[Ixion]

The reason I posted this and continue the debate is that for all the spanking on I do about how cool motorcycles are - every now and then I just like to step back and say - (regardless of what katman says) - this is dangerous stuff.

Be aware - stop and think about it - every time you put the keys in the ignition.

.

Oh, aye , to be sure it is. Nobody ever disputed that what we do is dangerous. Bloody lunacy, in fact. That's why we do it, cos we're lunatics.

And proud of it.

Yes. It is dangerous. And some of that danger can never be mitigated or removed. But, a lot of it can. And it's ALL down to the dude who puts the key in the ignition. All Mr Katman is saying is that the person responsible for how dangerous it is, isn't some cager, isn't some council dude. It's the guy who puts the key in the ignition. The only person who gives a crap whether you live or die is YOU. And whether you live or die is up to YOU.

Even if you make every right choice there is , do everything absolutely right you may still die. Cos that's what we do, it IS dangerous. But if you DON'T make the right choices , you have a SHIT load greater chance that you'll die.

End of the day, it's down to YOU. Live or die, I don't care. Mr Katman doesn't care. The cager who runs over your head and smears it in a red pulp over the road doesn't care. The cops don't care. LTSA doesn't care. It's down to YOU. Noone else.

[swbarnett]

They decided that the fault was not with him and that there was nothing reasonable that he could have done.

Being reasonable is not the be all and end all of accident avoidance. While I agree that the placement of the signs was probably (as I don't know the details) an issue and the rider was not legally culpable, this does not mean that there was nothing they could've done to avoid the accident.

It's about taking responsibility for your own safety. If I come off I ask two questions - the first is "What could I have done to avoid the accident - reasonable or not?" and later, usually when making an insurance claim, "Who was legally culpable?". The two are completely separate.

[Big Dave]

If there is no rider on the bike there is no locomotion therefore no equation. The equation arises as soon as the rider is added.

The rider is only the catalyst.

[swbarnett]

Not just fun - it will help keep you alive. I have 'what if' scenarios playing in my head all the time when I'm on the bike.

Likewise (and not just on the bike).

[Katman]

The rider is only the catalyst.

And a catayst is something that causes a reaction to happen.

[Big Dave]

Being reasonable is not the be all and end all of accident avoidance. While I agree that the placement of the signs was probably (as I don't know the details) an issue and the rider was not legally culpable, this does not mean that there was nothing they could've done to avoid the accident.

It's about taking responsibility for your own safety. If I come off I ask two questions - the first is "What could I have done to avoid the accident - reasonable or not?" and later, usually when making an insurance claim, "Who was legally culpable?". The two are completely separate.

Short story is the guy got ambushed by roadworks - sued Daniverke council and won.

You reckon the courts judge agin the Govt instruments often?

[Ixion]

Being reasonable is not the be all and end all of accident avoidance. While I agree that the placement of the signs was probably (as I don't know the details) an issue and the rider was not legally culpable, this does not mean that there was nothing they could've done to avoid the accident.

It's about taking responsibility for your own safety. If I come off I ask two questions - the first is "What could I have done to avoid the accident - reasonable or not?" and later, usually when making an insurance claim, "Who was legally culpable?". The two are completely separate.
Reply With Quote

Exactly so. You have hit the nub of the matter.

if I am put into danger because of your actions, I am not going to say "Oh, well, it is your fault not mine, so I will crash , and then sue you". I will do whatever it takes to avoid crashing. If that means letting you get away with what you are not actually entitled to , so be it. Many motorcyclists seem to regard their entitlements as motre important than their lives.

But, if , despite my best endeavours, I do crash, then I will look at who was to blame. YOU were. It is YOUR fault. And I will sue you for every penny you have. But I would much rather not crash in the first place.