Clearly we are all filthy anti-semites

[Swoop]

I remember Culloden...

Bloody hell! You are much older than I thought!

[McJim]

McJim, you can't be serious? How can we possibly "pork" it? That would not be kosher!!!

Yeah well I try not to be too shellfish either since it's definately not Kosher bro.

[motorbyclist]

A good joke is something funny. A poor joke is based on a racial stereotype.

oh i beg to differ

Personally, I think if Jews stopped being so bloody precious about their religion, tolerated questioning and criticism, and stopped automatically linking being anti-Israel to being anti-semitic, they might find people's regard of Judaism and its followers increase. But while you have these over-the-top reactions to anything the most-touchy Jew finds slightly insulting, people's general perception of Jews will continue to fall. There is nothing more guaranteed to foster dislike of a minority than that minority's habit of thinking of themselves as being better than everyone else and automatically being deserving of respect because of who they are...

+1

[Sanx]

Have to split this in two. I'm writing too much.

Here comes a leap from issues of ethnicity to faith. Sanx, I know it is your favorite subject, but what on earth has it got to do with the issue at hand?

It's entirely relevant to the point at hand. Take the advert and replace the word "Jews" with "vegetarians" or "trade unionists" or "people who play lawn-bowls". Would anyone have even questioned it? Probably not. But when you think about it, being Jewish is a lifestyle choice, in exactly the same way that being a vegetarian is. There's no legislation protecting someone's choice of diet, music or political view (Electoral Finance Bill notwithstanding) from ridicule. But as soon as you mention somebody's religious lifestyle choice, suddenly that belief must be respected. WHY?

Being a member of a particular ethnic group is not something you can choose; you can choose to identify with that group should you so please, but you can't change your genetic make-up. Although some people like to think as much (Hitler included, as it happens) being Jewish is not a genetic condition. If it were, I'd be Jewish, and I can assure you I'm far from it.

Wrong. It was never a question of faith, always of a lineage. Short version: "if you are jewish, half-jewish, or quarter-jewish, you are in a big fat trouble".

Actually, not wrong. "Aryans" (for want of a better term) who had converted to Judaism received the same cattle-truck treatment. There weren't many of them, of course, as Judaism isn't a religion that seeks converts. But there were some, and they got gassed just the same. And Gypsies / Romanies were exterminated on the basis of their lineage. Hitler regarded the Gypsies as a race in exactly the same way he did the Jews.

Why not? Forgetting history is the first step towards repeating it, you know.

There's a difference between forgetting, and constantly reminding.

Bull. No one discounts their deaths.But consider this: Some were massacred in the framework of nazi eugenics program. Others were rounded up for being transients (i.e. leading a nomadic way of life). Only Jews were exterminated solely for having Jewish, half-Jewish, or quarter-Jewish blood. It was genocide in its strictest academic definition - an extermination of the ethnicity. Herein lies the difference.

As I said earlier, not true. Whilst homosexuals, communists and other enemies of the regime were exterminated solely because of their beliefs or practices, Gypises were targetted by their lineage. Others, such as the disabled and mentally-unwell were simply 'put-down' so as to lessen the burden on the state. However, in the numerous commerorations (wrong word, I know) of the Nazi genocide, especially those carried out in Israel, no mention is given to the other victims of Nazi persecution. Just look at the Knesset's web page entitled The Holocaust - Historical Overview for proof - not one solitary mention of any of the other groups murdered by the Nazis. I have personally sat through two such Yom Hashoah events, one in England and one in Auckland, and was outraged each time when the congregation was asked to remember the Jews killed by the Nazis. Not the 'victims' or 'those who perished at the hands of the Nazis' but the Jews.

Here is something I agree with. It is a bit of a travesty. Germany was defeated, so saying it out loud was easy. No one on the other hand dared mention crimes perpetrated in Russia, especially given their contribution in the war against Nazi Germany. By the way, in terms of body count, Stalin did slightly worse than Hitler, if you do not take military losses during WWII into account. For almost entire period of his reign, Stalin was an equal opportunity murderer. He did plan a mass execution of Soviet Jews, but luckily, died hours before signing the order.

I was always under the impression he managed to exceed Hitler's body count by a fair margin, but I could be wrong. But yes, with the exception of his fellow Georgians who he targetted pretty ruthlessly, race didn't play much of a part when it came to handing out the death sentences.

Does the term "Germans of Abrahamaic persuasion" ring a bell?

No - it doesn't actually, Doesn't ring Google's bell either, but your original phrase may not be entirely accurate. What are you referring to?

I am trully sorry, but are you quite sure that was the reason rather than an excuse? It is perfectly ok to attend a wedding during Shabbat, as long as you don't have to drive to get there. Nor there is a ban on attending non-Jewish weddings as long as it does not involve idol-worshiping (neither Christian, not Muslim traditions involve idol-worshiping according to Judaism).

They'd have had to drive. However, there are plenty of ways that particular rule can be bypassed, even it just means arranging a lift (with a gentile) in advance. Or even staying overnight near the venue provided you're there by sundown on Friday. However, I found it telling that their observance of the something that happens every seven days was more important than attending my wedding. Obviously one of the core tenets of Judaism - that you don't do anything that causes unnecessary hurt or suffering - took a back seat during that decision.

[Sanx]

And continued...

Wrong. Only military objects were targeted. Authorities were always notified in advance to avoid collateral damage.

Crap, as I'm sure the 200+ Jewish civilians killed when Irgun bombed the cruise ship Patria in 1940, would agree. Sure, Irgun intended only to disable the ship to prevent it leaving Haifa, but it sank in fifteen minutes. I'm sure that Count Bernadotte, the UN mediator assasinated by Lehi in 1946 would also agree; members of Lehi objected to his perceived pro-Arab stance during cease-fire negotiations. I'm also sure the non-combatant Arabs of Deir Yassin would also agree.

Again, not so (e.g. 90% of children from Tchernobyl were rehabilitated in Israel), but yes, most of the time they just airlift their own, as any other country would. If you blame Israel for that, why don't you criticize NZ embassy in China for not ordering to fill the planes bound for NZ with everybody in sight but rather rendering assistance to fellow Kiwis only?

But the Falasha were not their own. They were Ethiopians. They weren't Israelis. What singled them out for special treatment was they were also Jews. And the children of Chernobyl came to Israel not at the behest of the Israeli government, but through a not-for-profit charity, admittedly founded by a Rabbi.

Jews believe that it was their faith that kept the people alive for the last 4000 years. Those were not the most user friendliest years as you said yourself. Why would not they be protective about the culture that they believe was instrumental to their survival?

One could equally argue that their religion and culture were the things that caused them to be persecuted also. Surely that in itself would be a good enough reason for abandoning it, or at leas studying it a little to work out what it was about the culture that so pissed off the natives. And I'd say the last 2000 years, not 4000. 2000 years ago, the Jews were very firmly based in Israel and represented the dominant belief, if not the dominant military power. In fact, one could argue that it was down to one particular fundamentalist Jew of the time, whose name has temporarily deserted me, that the world has half the religious problems it does now. Shortly after the Roman ocupation of Palestine, the Jews were undergoing something of a renaissance, with new appreciation of Greek philosophy and an appreciation of science. The old rabbinical laws were being more and more widely ignored as the local population sought out ideas and explored other beliefs. This one Jew, however, decided to collaborate with the Romans and persuaded them to enforce rabbincal law as a method of keeping the local population under control. Had he not done so, it's entirely possible that Judaism would have quietly faded from history, thus rendering Jesus's teachings irrelevant. The world could have been saved from a whole heap of hurt.

Do you classify the particular ad that sparked this discussion as questioning or as criticism? There are boundaries. Besides, as I mentioned already, if the ad was mentioning anybody but Jews, there would have been a waterfall of apologies from the beehive the very next day. Just try to pull that sh!t with Maori.

I don't regard the ad as either criticism or questioning. I regard it as a harmless joke, albeit not a very good one. I doubt the Beehive would have responded any differently had the name of any other religion appeared on the ad, but certainly their would have been an almighty shitstorm if it had said "Maori". But, as I said earlier, being Maori is a matter of ethnicity; being Jewish is a matter of choice. If you're born of Maori parents, you'll always have Maori blood, no matter how much you identify with the culture of that group. But if you're born of Jewish parents, you can choose to be Jewish (as you have, choose to abandon the entire belief structure (as I have). You can even choose to be Jewish if your parents are typical WASPs. It's all down to choice.

So unless you subscribe to Hitler's theory that Jews are a race, rather than a group of people connected solely as a result of their beliefs, being Maori and being Jewish are two very different things.

Criticizing Israel is ok. Israelis are often quite vicious in their criticism of Israel. Singling out Israel for criticism and holding it to a different standard than everybody else is a textbook antisemitism.

No no no. Criticising Israel is not being anti-semitic. It's simply criticising Israel. Criticising Israel on the basis of the religion of the ruling body may be anti-semitic, but saying "I don't like Israel because they captured territory and now treat the inhabitants badly", whilst not mentioning China's continued occupation of Tibet (for instance) does not make someone an anti-semite. Too many Jews regard an attack on Israel as an attack on their religion. They are two different things. Take this for an example: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, president of Iran and former mayor of Tehran has repeatedly and vehemently expressed his wish to see Israel wiped off the map. Is that anti-Israel, anti-zionist or anti-semitic? He also makes regular charitable donations to one of the very few Jewish charity hospitals in the world, the Dr. Sapir Hospital and Charity Center, in Tehran. He also sent out the Revolutionary Guard to protect Tehran synagogues after a Tehran newspaper stirred up the local mobs by publishing a photo of Jews in an Israeli synagogue waving Israeli flags on Yom Ha'atzmaut, but saying it happened in Tehran. Are those the actions of an anti-semite, or an anti-zionist? Surely an anti-semite - someone who hates Jews and Judaism - would have happily let the angry mobs ransack the synagogues and would never dream of supporting a Jewish hospital?

[Mikkel]

I don't regard the ad as either criticism or questioning. I regard it as a harmless joke, albeit not a very good one. I doubt the Beehive would have responded any differently had the name of any other religion appeared on the ad, but certainly their would have been an almighty shitstorm if it had said "Maori". But, as I said earlier, being Maori is a matter of ethnicity; being Jewish is a matter of choice. If you're born of Maori parents, you'll always have Maori blood, no matter how much you identify with the culture of that group. But if you're born of Jewish parents, you can choose to be Jewish (as you have, choose to abandon the entire belief structure (as I have). You can even choose to be Jewish if your parents are typical WASPs. It's all down to choice.

Hmmm, I had actually gotten the impression that being Maori was solely a matter of identifying yourself with the Maori culture - not your genetic lineage. If that is indeed the case, it would be a lifestyle choice like any other...

[alanzs]

Jews make the best pastrami sandwich in the world. Check out this for a mouth watering treat: www.brentsdeli.com. Takes two hands to hold one of these beasts. Every trip back to LA, I go there for a meal. Amazing food!

I used to do a really hot Israeli girl, she could suck the chrome off a bumper and not even pause to breathe. I guess she learnt that trick in the army...

[CookMySock]

But as soon as you mention somebody's religious lifestyle choice, suddenly that belief must be respected. WHY?

We don't. But, its nice to, because people hold those beliefs very closely, and they mean a lot to them. It's like taking the piss out of your bike - someone may find it amusing, but done regularly its quite demoralizing.

Having said that, I don't think anyone has the right to demand that their beliefs are respected.

I'm writing too much.

Yes you are. Surely you have some cool thing to muck around with ? We can't change the internet.


DB

[Dave Lobster]

Hmmm, I had actually gotten the impression that being Maori was solely a matter of identifying yourself with the Maori culture - not your genetic lineage. If that is indeed the case, it would be a lifestyle choice like any other...

Heh heh.. when the redneck inlaws went to a 'cultural display' in Taupo earlier this year, two of the 'maoris' were white guys!!

[Mikkel]

Jews make the best pastrami sandwich in the world.

Now, let's not go bringing cannibalism into this matter too!

[Street Gerbil]

Sanx, I am really envious of your lifestyle. I really cannot afford spending that much time on those essays. And trust me, not everything in this world has something to do with religion. You know, even Freud sometimes had those ridiculous dreams that do not mean a damn thing!

...I'm sure the 200+ Jewish civilians killed when Irgun bombed the cruise ship Patria in 1940, would agree.

It was an accident (or sloppy job). It was not planned to happen this way and just shows the tendency of best laid schemes of mice and men to go to the dogs at the worst possible moment. And that if you fuck around with explosives, bad things happen. It served no benefit for the underground movement (I think it was Haganah, rather than Irgun, but I may be wrong on that one) to get all those folks killed.

Count Bernadotte, the UN mediator assasinated by Lehi in 1946 would also agree; members of Lehi objected to his perceived pro-Arab stance during cease-fire negotiations.

Pardon my french, but Mr. Beradotte was an asshole. He had it coming, although personally I think assassination of bad guys has a downside of turning them into martyrs.

I'm also sure the non-combatant Arabs of Deir Yassin would also agree.

I bet you believe in 'massacre of "Jeningrad"' too, do you? The Israeli side naively hoped that an imaginary massacre and a ridiculously inflated body count would serve as a deterrent.

But the Falasha were not their own. They were Ethiopians. They weren't Israelis. What singled them out for special treatment was they were also Jews.

Yes. Israel prides itself as being the only safe haven in the world for Jewish people. What's wrong with that?

Shortly after the Roman ocupation of Palestine, the Jews were undergoing something of a renaissance, with new appreciation of Greek philosophy and an appreciation of science. The old rabbinical laws were being more and more widely ignored as the local population sought out ideas and explored other beliefs. This one Jew, however, decided to collaborate with the Romans and persuaded them to enforce rabbincal law as a method of keeping the local population under control. Had he not done so, it's entirely possible that Judaism would have quietly faded from history, thus rendering Jesus's teachings irrelevant. The world could have been saved from a whole heap of hurt.

Wow! I should have known where you are heading. Do you realize that nature abhors vacuum? Granted, if Romans had succeeded in eradicating Judaism, Jews would have disappeared, thus saving KB from this boring and protracted discussion, but what all the people who in our reality chose to become Christians, would have worshiped? They would not have turned into atheists just because Jesus missed the train, you know. And worse yet, if not for Christians, who would have opposed Muslims in Iberia? How do you know that hellenization of Jews would have prevented pain instead of making it worse?

So unless you subscribe to Hitler's theory that Jews are a race, rather than a group of people connected solely as a result of their beliefs,

Ok, so when one is being born to a Jewish mom and Jewish dad, what does it make him/her? A Maori? In your previous posting you mentioned Sephards and Ashquenazis. Are they mythical creatures of Hitler's propaganda machine? What I can agree with is if you are Maori, you are Maori for life, but according to Jewish beliefs, if you worship idols you cease being Jewish. So don't be in such a hurry, Sanx. Have you worshiped at the altar of Moloch lately? Any child sacrifices? Wicca? For all I know you are still a Jewish lad yourself, just may be a bit misguided one :-))))))))

No no no. Criticising Israel is not being anti-semitic.
[...]
Too many Jews regard an attack on Israel as an attack on their religion.

This article in Wikipedia is highly enlightening on this matter.

Take this for an example: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, president of Iran and former mayor of Tehran...

I have no knowledge of his motives. It is entirely possible that he is a teddybear and has to put up a show to keep everybody happy as a part of job description. I have no idea. Nor do you, right? But it is said that every antisemite has a lap jew.

[Street Gerbil]

Now, let's not go bringing cannibalism into this matter too!

I have to admit the same thing crossed (circled) my mind too...

[Sanx]

Sanx, I am really envious of your lifestyle. I really cannot afford spending that much time on those essays. And trust me, not everything in this world has something to do with religion. You know, even Freud sometimes had those ridiculous dreams that do not mean a damn thing!

My wife's in Auckland. I'm in Brisbane, and I'm sharing a flat with a couch potato whose two hobbies are drinking and golf. What else am I meant to do?

It was an accident (or sloppy job). It was not planned to happen this way and just shows the tendency of best laid schemes of mice and men to go to the dogs at the worst possible moment. And that if you fuck around with explosives, bad things happen. It served no benefit for the underground movement (I think it was Haganah, rather than Irgun, but I may be wrong on that one) to get all those folks killed.

Yes - you're right. It was Haganah. But regardless of which particular Jewish terrorist organisation it was, claiming "Yes, sorry m'lud, we only meant to prevent the ship leaving the harbour. Accidents happen. Whatcha gonna do?" doesn't wash as a valid defence.

Pardon my french, but Mr. Beradotte was an asshole. He had it coming, although personally I think assassination of bad guys has a downside of turning them into martyrs.

So it's OK to assassinate anyone you don't agree with? Come on... But calling a diplomat who secured the release of 15,000 (including between 6,500 and 11,000 Jews, apparently, though the margin of error in those figures is a little bit suspect) prisoners in Nazi concentration camps an asshole is a bit rich...

I bet you believe in 'massacre of "Jeningrad"' too, do you? The Israeli side naively hoped that an imaginary massacre and a ridiculously inflated body count would serve as a deterrent.

I believe that something pretty bad happened there, but I imagine the true situation lies somewhere between what's claimed by both sides. Ariel Sharon certainly got his hands dirty though. Incidentally, you might be interested to know that the Deir Yassin incident was condemned by a number of groups, including Haganah themselves...

Yes. Israel prides itself as being the only safe haven in the world for Jewish people. What's wrong with that?

Nothing in particular...

Wow! I should have known where you are heading. Do you realize that nature abhors vacuum? Granted, if Romans had succeeded in eradicating Judaism, Jews would have disappeared, thus saving KB from this boring and protracted discussion, but what all the people who in our reality chose to become Christians, would have worshiped? They would not have turned into atheists just because Jesus missed the train, you know. And worse yet, if not for Christians, who would have opposed Muslims in Iberia? How do you know that hellenization of Jews would have prevented pain instead of making it worse?

Judah the Macabee. It wasn't him, but some relation or compatriot. Name still escapes me ... And why assume that there had to be an alternative something to worship? And if there hadn't have been Christianity and Judaism to rail against, who knows if there would have been Islam?

Ok, so when one is being born to a Jewish mom and Jewish dad, what does it make him/her? ...

It makes them a child of Jewish parents. Nothing more, nothing less.

In your previous posting you mentioned Sephards and Ashquenazis. Are they mythical creatures of Hitler's propaganda machine?

What are you on about? You're not making much sense in this paragraph... Ashkenazi and Sephardi are simply sects of Judaism (as are the Falasha), not races of people. In fact, the probably have more of a claim to be a race than "the Jews" simply because of the Jewish stigma against marrying out will have led to chronic inbreeding and therefore a very slight departure from the genetic average of the local population.

What I can agree with is if you are Maori, you are Maori for life, but according to Jewish beliefs, if you worship idols you cease being Jewish. So don't be in such a hurry, Sanx. Have you worshiped at the altar of Moloch lately? Any child sacrifices? Wicca? For all I know you are still a Jewish lad yourself, just may be a bit misguided one :-))))))))

No, all out of children to sacrifice this week... Well, Palestinian ones anyway. Need some blood to make some hamentashen. And white or Islander children don't taste the same.

But no - I don't need to worship anything - idol or otherwise - to happily claim I'm not Jewish. Being Jewish is a matter of belief, and I don't believe. Just because my mother's Jewish (she married out), does not automatically make me believe as well. She'd certainly like it to be the case, but she's reluctantly accepted I'm old and ugly enough to make up my own mind. But I'm certainly not misguided.

I have no knowledge of his motives. It is entirely possible that he is a teddybear and has to put up a show to keep everybody happy as a part of job description. I have no idea. Nor do you, right? But it is said that every antisemite has a lap jew.

That's the wierd thing; he made the same donations when he was merely the mayor of Tehran, and not on the world stage. Could it just be that he has made the distinction between anti-semitism and anti-zionism, and doesn't care that many (including, of course, many of the people he's preaching to) fail to recognise the distinction.

[Winston001]

Good stuff Sanx and Gerbil, saved me a lot of typing. At least you guys have a global and historical perspective, most posters here have no conception of anti-Semitism. Jewish people aren't noticed in NZ and are pretty safe.

Couple of points:

1. Being Jewish is both racial and religious. That is hard for us to get our heads around and I cannot think of another ethnic group it applies to - but that's the way it is. Of course a jewish person can walk away from both if they choose - provided the local population let him.

2. Jewish people have maintained racial purity far above any other population group over 2000 years. It's quite remarkable and demonstrated by DNA. Unfortunately, as Sanx says, as a group Jewish people have been insular and outsiders view them with suspicion. Unfair as it may be, this lies at the heart of anti-Semitic prejudice.

[imdying]

Jews make the best pastrami sandwich in the world.

They're a smart people alright... someone mentioned that the Intel P4 was developed by Israeli workers, well, the Core series of CPUs which replaced them was designed by them too!

They also do a mighty impressive job of defending their home given their limited resources. They've never admitted to to having nuclear weapons, but we're all going to enjoy watching them turn the rag heads into glass soon enough