Allan Kirk's at it again, this time its the older rider's fault!

**Pwalo** · 17th April 2008, 10:08

Originally Posted by chubby

Sorry that was so long and I realise that this study was put out some 8 years ago even if the facts were of a few years earlier.

As i see it, its our own abilities and judgements that put us in danger most of the time. Older people are getting involved in more crashes because there are more older riders returning to bikes and their training is largely by the seat of their pants and not by experianced trainers. It's not their reaction timing that is causing accidents but their skill level. ACC have recognised this and are getting ready to pump money into rider education and the costs of training should drop very soon.

Thanks cobber. It would be interesting to see what the results would be from a similar survey carried out now. (As you say this is an old study).

I would be interested to see if there was any difference ion the crash/injury rates between older riders (or riders in general) who ride every day, and those that only ride in the weekends, or more occasionally.

**WelshWizard** · 17th April 2008, 17:44

As can be seen from my original post it was selectively quote to stir up debate.

Personally I do not like Mr. Kirk, he is always jumping in making comments to the press in a manner that comes over as " I can get a bit of free advertising here" not even sure if he even believes what he spouts out.

As for older riders , Yes we do slow down, but in many ways we also slow down in our riding, and use skills gained over the years of riding,

one of the problems I found was
I have always ridden Norton, Triumph, BSA Jaw, CZ, Older Honda's, Suzuki and even Yamaha, I have also ridden for close on 45 years, on three continents and in many countries,
but my personal trouble came when I purchased a GS1200SS suddenly it was a riding position I had not used since my teens ( café Racer ) I ended up selling the GS for one simple reason, I was comfortable on my old style riding position bikes, not so with the GS and at my age the GS made me feel like a squid, ( and I find I ride a lot faster and better when on a bike with a riding position I am happy with.

As I have always ridden even though I have driven vans and lorries as part of my work as a service engineer in the past, I cannot really comment on the so called born again riders, as you first have to ask what was the last motorcycle they ever rode, I remember a lot of L platers in my youth that rode only a Bantam to pass their test on then stopped riding, so for them coming back into motorcycling at 40 with no real riding experience behind them going out and buying a GSXR1000, a Triumph Rocket 3, or a V Rod is crazy, but their again so was the test system they introed in my early days, ride up to a 250 till you pass your test and then go out and buy a Vincent Black Shadow the day after you passed your test, the two never handled the same and you were basically a learner again on the Vincent, but ego and bravado normally got the better of you, ( Hence of the 30 riders I used to ride with less than 10 are still alive or able to ride still)

Surely it would be better to have power and size bands for people who are starting to ride, once you have passed your test then if you ride a certain class for a year then you can upgrade to the next band, if you don't change your bike to the next band for 10 years, then when you do, you have to ride in the next class for so long before being allowed to upgrade again, this is some thing that should apply also to car drivers, in order to police this it should be compulsory to have a minimum of third party insurance. but that really another subject.

As for crashes, we all have them , mine from memory except for the times when I have been hit by a car or bus and one occasion was down to a mechanical fault, which if I had gone through the service history of the bike would have made me suspicious of the Suzuki anti dives to the point of scraping them of the forks altogether, have normally been because of ego, showing off, ect and you soon learn that it cost a lot to crash you bike, and it also hurts a lot.

As for training, yes you can never stop learning, if you think you know every thing about riding a motorcycle then you are just another stat in the making, and its not just down to riders being born again we all need to hone our skills all the time.

**Rogue** · 17th April 2008, 23:28

Originally Posted by WelshWizard

As for training, yes you can never stop learning, if you think you know every thing about riding a motorcycle then you are just another stat in the making, and its not just down to riders being born again we all need to hone our skills all the time.

To True but training is not the all to end all

I know of a guy that has gone out an brought a big cc/hp bike after riding a very old and wornout much smaller cc/hp bike for 12 months.
This guy applied armourall to his tires and wondered why the back slid out, he also has no idea about warming up the tires before giving it heaps

back slid out again

My mates and I have placed bets on how long it will be before he hits the tarmac.
Training is very very important but there is no quick cure for stupidity at any age!!

**JMemonic** · 17th April 2008, 23:31

Originally Posted by Rogue

Training is very very important but there is no quick cure for stupidity at any age!!

Oh how true that is, possibly the best I have seen in a long time, and applicable to everything.

**chubby** · 18th April 2008, 11:18

Originally Posted by Pwalo

Thanks cobber. It would be interesting to see what the results would be from a similar survey carried out now. (As you say this is an old study).

I would be interested to see if there was any difference ion the crash/injury rates between older riders (or riders in general) who ride every day, and those that only ride in the weekends, or more occasionally.

I am not aware of any and that just means that. I am not aware of any study that delves as deeply into the cause and effect of biker accidents as you have queried. I also wonder if the findings would provide any meaningful conclusions in that everyday riders by virtue of increased time in the saddle will have more accidents. Then you get into the hours of riding verse accident and well we can make statistics talk till the cows come home.

Quick snippets like 'reduced reactions' annoy me as I don't see riding as a series of necessary impulse reactions and all those staements offer are quick fixes that don't exist. Of course we all use impulse reactions but they are secondary factors to me, its about judgement and understanding (note i didn't say experience as length of time in the saddle may make you better but there are plenty of 20 years plus riders who continue to be accidents waiting to happen) ie its better to be prepared and antiscipate activity and situations than to wait for it and react.

The point of my earlier postings was to identify where accidents happen so that we can have a better understanding of what may cause accidents. This way we can stop blaming cages totally, that we can stop saying its all about speed and the size of your bike and that we can stop blaming the young or the elderly. Interestingly the major situation was how we handle corners and thats all about us and our judgement.

All of what i have said is just words (duh-oh) and like many before me in this post the main points we all seem to come back to are that we have to take responsibility for our own safety, we have to have realistic knowledge of our own abilities and capabilities (young and old), pay attention and antiscipate.

Sermon over...

**chubby** · 18th April 2008, 11:20

oops te he.. put in twice.. my bad

**awayatc** · 19th April 2008, 17:58

Originally Posted by Rogue

Training is very very important but there is no quick cure for stupidity at any age!!

Severe stupidity ususaly results in instant removal from the gene pool.....

So being old AND stupid is kinda unusual.....

**Motu** · 19th April 2008, 19:19

Originally Posted by awayatc

So being old AND stupid is kinda unusual.....

My wife has a different opinion.....

**NordieBoy** · 19th April 2008, 19:30

Originally Posted by Pussy

I'M over 40, you cheeky little whippersnapper! It's MISTER Pussy to you, from now on

"Old man pussy" just does not sound right

'Specially if you put a hyphen or comma in different places.

**mhbarber** · 16th July 2008, 16:02

Originally Posted by Ixion

I'm not convinced about the reflexes thing. While undoubtedly medically true , how relevant is it . No man ever lacked for a stone to throw at a dog.

How many riders actually crash because their reflexes are point n of a second too slow? As opposed to crashing because they did stupid shit, and/or didn't know what to do when it all went wrong.

The time for the actual reflex action (the "snatch hand away when it meets something sharp" action) is very small indeed compared with the "process inputs and figure out appropriate reaction " time.

It's reaction time that counts, not reflex time. As as Mr Motu says, that is probably faster in older riders , simply because experiences burns in the neural pathways.

It would be good to know the actual science behind the difference in good training and reflexes and reactions instead of good theories

**Ocean1** · 16th July 2008, 18:46

Originally Posted by mhbarber

It would be good to know the actual science behind the difference in good training and reflexes and reactions instead of good theories

Wee scientific experiment for you: Put a competent boxer on a track bike and see how important reflexes are compared to experience.

**Biggles2000** · 17th July 2008, 14:20

There is no fool like an old fool.

**Big Dave** · 17th July 2008, 14:27

To the tune of there is no business like show business.

It's all relative innit.

You put some old dribbler who hasn't ridden for 20 years on a R1 and it's pretty likely to end it tears.

God bless Barry Sheene would be approaching 60 - Nah Baz yous too old in ya. Sure.