So who's the terrorist again?

[Clockwork]

Thanks for the anwers (Sanx, RT) but I remain unconvinced. Didn't GB give the US tax cuts? Can anyone show that their overall tax take has inceased as a consequence. (I honestly don't know where to look for such figures myself)

Failing that, presumably this truth will be revealed accross the Tasman shortly as the Aussie Govt starts raking all that extra tax from their recent tax cuts.

When comparing our economy to Singapore lets not forget NZ has a much larger infrastucture to support than Singapore, no real manufacturing base (which is unlikley to ever improve unless we start working as cheaply as the Chinese) and no ready access to sizable markets. Also I believe Singapore has no welfare state and I suspect on the whole their population lives to work. I'd much rather work to live.

[davereid]

I often liken tax to fines.

If you are speeding, you get money taken of you in proportion to the speed you travel. Stay below the limit = no fine.

Tax is the same.
Stay on a benefit = no fine, the state gives more than it takes.
Get a basic job = about even you will collect pretty much what you pay via health care, schools, etc.

But, mortgage the family home, take some risks to get machinery, staff, and develop a market and you will be heavily fined.

Does it have an effect on peoples behaviour ?
I think it does.

Over the years I have had many opportunities to grow my business. I personally have decided that its not worth the risk.

Maybe I'm just a bit soft. But I look at the cost of employees, the hassle of having them, and the extra profit I would make if I did it. My decision has always been, that a better investment is a boat to go fishing.

Perhaps this gives kiwis a more balanced view of the world, maybe we value family and free time more as a result.

But mostly I think it just gradually erodes our standard of living.

I just can't see how fining people for being productive and paying people for being unproductive will make NZ a better place.

[Robert Taylor]

Health is our only real wealth.

You would have been, to put it mildly, fucked, if you lived in the US without excellent insurance for the injuries you have sustained and the care you need(ed). Even the best insurance that I ever saw, generally had a million dollars TOTAL lifetime payment clause attached to it. I also worked for some very big companies, so the insurance was usually some of the best you could get.

Open heart by-pass surgery can cost you 1/2 million dollars.

A friend back in LA just recently had a colonoscopy and it cost $20,000. This is a simple out patient procedure, takes about an hour.

If you don't have the money, you don't get the treatment. You could mortgage your house or figure a way to come up with the money. Doctors will negotiate a cash price, typically 80-90% of the insurance price.

The healthcare system here is as good as any care I ever had back in the States, and better, in that there isn't the unbelievable amount of paperwork that you have to do and just not having the anxiety of not being able to get care if you are ill is healthier.

As New Zealander's, we really should be proud of how we care for each other! I know that I am very proud and honored to be here and am glad that my tax dollars, high as they are, go to help each other rather than build nuclear weapons and a huge military, as just one example. Butter or guns, which will it be?

"You may call me a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..."

You will be wishing guns when one day in the future a belligerent nation comes knocking on our door.................that we have been raped of what little security we had ( an air strike force ) is the biggest act of tyranny of this outgoing Government. On that act alone the leaders of the Labour party should be hanged.The 50,000 extra civil servants we are now suffering would be a much better manpower resource manning a credible Air Force.

[Clockwork]

OK then, fault this logic.

Every Finance minister (the whole democratic world over) wants more money. After all what politician wouldn't get re-elected after sucessfully financing the all of a nations spending requirements.

Surely all it would have taken is for one Finance Minister to cut taxes and see his tax revenue rise! It would be the fiscal equivilent of a perpetual motion machine! Word would soon spread, taxes would be cut the whole world over and Governments would be awash with cash.

How is it that this hasn't this happened yet?

[Jez]

You will be wishing guns when one day in the future a belligerent nation comes knocking on our door.................that we have been raped of what little security we had ( an air strike force ) is the biggest act of tyranny of this outgoing Government. On that act alone the leaders of the Labour party should be hanged.The 50,000 extra civil servants we are now suffering would be a much better manpower resource manning a credible Air Force.

LOL we are at the ass end of the world with no strategic value what-so-ever ... we have no huge reserves of known minerals ... even the great southern basin oil fields arent that impressive on the global scale

what the hell do we need a strike wing air force for?!?!

a belligerent nation wouldnt have to invade NZ for us to bow to thier will ... they would just have to blockade us from the rest of the world, and given our geographical location, that could be achieved outside the range of land based stike aircraft NZ could feasibly afford ... sure we could be self sufficient for a long time, but eventually we would want to be allowed into the global community again.

[Robert Taylor]

LOL we are at the ass end of the world with no strategic value what-so-ever ... we have no huge reserves of known minerals ... even the great southern basin oil fields arent that impressive on the global scale

what the hell do we need a strike wing air force for?!?!

a belligerent nation wouldnt have to invade NZ for us to bow to thier will ... they would just have to blockade us from the rest of the world, and given our geographical location, that could be achieved outside the range of land based stike aircraft NZ could feasibly afford ... sure we could be self sufficient for a long time, but eventually we would want to be allowed into the global community again.

Well my friend you have Chester Nimitz and his forces ( and many other fine people who gave their lives ) to thank for the fact that you ( we ) are here at all.
No strategic importance? A pretty handy staging post for an invasion of Australia, also a gateway to the Antarctic. To blithely think that this can never happen is foolhardy. We must have a plausible signature that we at least have the intent to defend ourselves and our ( thankfully ) predominantly western values.

[Jez]

Well my friend you have Chester Nimitz and his forces ( and many other fine people who gave their lives ) to thank for the fact that you ( we ) are here at all.
No strategic importance? A pretty handy staging post for an invasion of Australia, also a gateway to the Antarctic. To blithely think that this can never happen is foolhardy. We must have a plausible signature that we at least have the intent to defend ourselves and our ( thankfully ) predominantly western values.

yes i do thank chester nimitz everyday when i wake up next to my japanese wife, without their sacrifice i dont think i would have been lucky enough to meet her ... different time and different world mate 63 years ago the war ended. you might notice that all conflicts since then have been localised conflicts with very little invasions (Iraq into Kuwait in the early 90's being the only one i can think of).

As for NZ being a handy staging post for an invasion of Australia ... i think you would be much better off getting a hold of PNG, then getting your feet into the sparsely populated areas of Nothern Australia rather than taking NZ ... the nature of the people in NZ would make taking these 2 islands a very formidable task for any possible invading force ...

i also doubt taking NZ before Australia would be a very smart move as you would lose alot of resources when our cousins across the ditch come to help us out ... much better going for aussie first so you have a full complement of resources to throw at the situation ...

but hey, yeah lets get an air force, 2 dozen F-15's (which is about all we could afford) would certainly stop anyone thinking of invading us now wouldnt it ...

[SPman]

yes i do thank chester nimitz everyday when i wake up next to my japanese wife, without their sacrifice i dont think i would have been lucky enough to meet her ... different time and different world mate 63 years ago the war ended. you might notice that all conflicts since then have been localised conflicts with very little invasions (Iraq into Kuwait in the early 90's being the only one i can think of).

US into Iraq...US into Vietnam...Nth Korea into Sth Korea... Russia into Afghanistan.....US, UK, into Afghanistan......Argentina into the Falkland Islands..............US into some Carribean Island I cant' think of at the moment........etc etc.

but hey, yeah lets get an air force, 2 dozen F-15's (which is about all we could afford) would certainly stop anyone thinking of invading us now wouldnt it ...

A small, highly trained strike force, with it's attendant infrastructure, as we had, was sufficient for our needs in time of peace - it's the loss of all that accumulated expertise, groundcrews and pilots, that galls!

. the nature of the people in NZ would make taking these 2 islands a very formidable task for any possible invading force ..

Ideally, yes, but there would still be enough turncoats to make it less formidable for an invading force - That's why it is important to have a strong, cohesive society from top to bottom that is at least, reasonably aware of all the happenings outside their country - not an Us and Them, mentality based on limited, biased or no information.

[davereid]

LOL we are at the ass end of the world with no strategic value what-so-ever ... we have no huge reserves of known minerals ... even the great southern basin oil fields arent that impressive on the global scale

what the hell do we need a strike wing air force for?!?!

a belligerent nation wouldnt have to invade NZ for us to bow to thier will ... they would just have to blockade us from the rest of the world, and given our geographical location, that could be achieved outside the range of land based stike aircraft NZ could feasibly afford ... sure we could be self sufficient for a long time, but eventually we would want to be allowed into the global community again.

You are way off the mark.

1. Value of NZ.

NZ controls, via our EEZ about 1/6th of the worlds fisheries, including important breeding grounds for many species.

We have a handsome claim in the most prosperous part of Antartica, which even if our claim is valueless, does not reduce the value of the resource.

We are also the gateway to Australia. I don't just mean for dodgy asian immigrants, but for cotrol of Australia.

Go back in time. Ask your japanese wife. Japans war plans included provision to invade NZ before eastern Australia.

Why ? if you invade Darwin, you are still a long way from controlling, or even starting to dominate Australia. Aussie and NZ still control the tasman sea, and Aussie can get support and reinforcement for ever, from the first cousins in NZ.

But invade NZ, you control the Tasman sea, from NZ, with good ports, steel, coal,hydro-electricity and you can spread your influence easily into the pacific. You reverse the entire picture.

ie.. Control NZ, and Aussie is f*cked, from a military point of view.

Yes, the world is not the same now as it was in WW2.. but maybe its not so different.

---------------------------------------------------------------

2. Ability to control NZ

Once again, a look at history helps, as does considering the modern world.

Can air power be useful in NZ ? You say no, but you are absolutely wrong. No one can control NZ or the Tasman sea without Air Superiority. You cant invade, or even supply your raiders without controlling the air.

New Zealand is one of the easiest places in the world to defend, and a Maritime Strike force is how its done.

If an aggressor wants New Zealand, he needs air-superiority. Without it, he can't get ships, landing craft or men within miles of the place.

That means he needs aircraft carriers.

Trouble is, they are very expensive, and extremely vulnerable, so a massive force is required to protect them.

And that force neds supplies of food, fuel etc, creating a long chain of potential targets for an isand based defender.

And even the biggest aircraft carriers don't carry that many aircraft - US Nimitz class boats are good for about 80 aircraft, but selom actually have more than 60-65.

The bottom line ?

If NZ has a modern, well equipped maritime strike force, then we are very very difficult to defeat.

Back that up with a white water Navy that can take the battle to the attackers supply lines, and a fleet of small submarines that ensure the enemys aircraft carrier is almost a liability, not an asset, and you just became too hard to pick on.

[Robert Taylor]

yes i do thank chester nimitz everyday when i wake up next to my japanese wife, without their sacrifice i dont think i would have been lucky enough to meet her ... different time and different world mate 63 years ago the war ended. you might notice that all conflicts since then have been localised conflicts with very little invasions (Iraq into Kuwait in the early 90's being the only one i can think of).

As for NZ being a handy staging post for an invasion of Australia ... i think you would be much better off getting a hold of PNG, then getting your feet into the sparsely populated areas of Nothern Australia rather than taking NZ ... the nature of the people in NZ would make taking these 2 islands a very formidable task for any possible invading force ...

i also doubt taking NZ before Australia would be a very smart move as you would lose alot of resources when our cousins across the ditch come to help us out ... much better going for aussie first so you have a full complement of resources to throw at the situation ...

but hey, yeah lets get an air force, 2 dozen F-15's (which is about all we could afford) would certainly stop anyone thinking of invading us now wouldnt it ...

SP man has answered most of your views and you also patently miss the point. Yes, we couldnt stop much but that gives us absolutely no excuse to freeload off the Aussies for our regional defence. I get embarrassed as do many others that overseas kiwis often have a reputation as freeloaders.There is no excuse for any Government to shirk the fundamental responsibility of providing defence, and I say again the current political leaders should hang for it.
We still have many people still alive on this planet who fought Japanese and German aggression, I thank them for it. Its only a little over half a century ago and many of us live 80% or so of a century, so its still very relevant. We may be in a ''new age'' but its clear that there are and always will be genocidal regimes. Nothing wrong with keeping yourselves a little prepared. There certainly are a lot of tax dollars wasted that should otherwise be channelled into defence.

[Robert Taylor]

You are way off the mark.

1. Value of NZ.

NZ controls, via our EEZ about 1/6th of the worlds fisheries, including important breeding grounds for many species.

We have a handsome claim in the most prosperous part of Antartica, which even if our claim is valueless, does not reduce the value of the resource.

We are also the gateway to Australia. I don't just mean for dodgy asian immigrants, but for cotrol of Australia.

Go back in time. Ask your japanese wife. Japans war plans included provision to invade NZ before eastern Australia.

Why ? if you invade Darwin, you are still a long way from controlling, or even starting to dominate Australia. Aussie and NZ still control the tasman sea, and Aussie can get support and reinforcement for ever, from the first cousins in NZ.

But invade NZ, you control the Tasman sea, from NZ, with good ports, steel, coal,hydro-electricity and you can spread your influence easily into the pacific. You reverse the entire picture.

ie.. Control NZ, and Aussie is f*cked, from a military point of view.

Yes, the world is not the same now as it was in WW2.. but maybe its not so different.

---------------------------------------------------------------

2. Ability to control NZ

Once again, a look at history helps, as does considering the modern world.

Can air power be useful in NZ ? You say no, but you are absolutely wrong. No one can control NZ or the Tasman sea without Air Superiority. You cant invade, or even supply your raiders without controlling the air.

New Zealand is one of the easiest places in the world to defend, and a Maritime Strike force is how its done.

If an aggressor wants New Zealand, he needs air-superiority. Without it, he can't get ships, landing craft or men within miles of the place.

That means he needs aircraft carriers.

Trouble is, they are very expensive, and extremely vulnerable, so a massive force is required to protect them.

And that force neds supplies of food, fuel etc, creating a long chain of potential targets for an isand based defender.

And even the biggest aircraft carriers don't carry that many aircraft - US Nimitz class boats are good for about 80 aircraft, but selom actually have more than 60-65.

The bottom line ?

If NZ has a modern, well equipped maritime strike force, then we are very very difficult to defeat.

Back that up with a white water Navy that can take the battle to the attackers supply lines, and a fleet of small submarines that ensure the enemys aircraft carrier is almost a liability, not an asset, and you just became too hard to pick on.

That makes absolute sense and you have said what I was struggling to say! I fear that the big problem is there are too many who just dont wish to listen. The really sad part is that the issue is effectively politicised. If the incoming National Government has secret agendas then lets hope one of them is to over time reinstate an Air Strike Force. We all know that to disband it and systematically destroy the supporting infrastructure was Clarks secret agenda.

[Guitana]

Reinstating a strike wing would be extremely expensive to undertake, given the cost of buying maintaining and arming modern fighters.
We would've been better off to band together with Australia and base a squadron of F18s at Ohakea we maintain fly and arm them for the Aussies, this would allow us and australia to patrol more of our territory.
The biggest problem we have is a large coastal area stocked with some of the best seafood in the world, and everybody wants it! The fisheries alone is worth occupation.
A modern airforce with longrange strike capability is what we need to protect us if the need ever arises, don't ever think it won't happen! If some large force needs a staging post for an attack on Australia we are prime for the picking plenty of food water and coastline with no anti aircraft missiles fighter jets and 2500 infantry! OOOOOOOhhh I'm scared!!

[Ocean1]

If NZ has a modern, well equipped maritime strike force, then we are very very difficult to defeat.

Back that up with a white water Navy that can take the battle to the attackers supply lines, and a fleet of small submarines that ensure the enemys aircraft carrier is almost a liability, not an asset, and you just became too hard to pick on.

Yes, an attractive economic and strategic asset, as you say. One that given time, will (not might) need to be defended.

And I believe the white water Navy might be the more important of the two, given modern combat systems.

Pity, then, that when offered reciprocal capital contracts with Aus during the frigate build programme we, (and by we I mean Hullen), declined the deal, which would have formed the basis of a huge local high-tech light ship building industry. Culpable negligence you might say, but no, such deals are anathema to our current administration, make peace they said, not warships.

More the pity because the rather large fishing grounds you mentioned already requires a level of policing we’re nowhere near capable of deploying. That’ll get worse, far worse before it gets better.

Nor do we have a coastguard worth mentioning, y’know, an entity capable of supplying search and rescue, fisheries research and training capabilities. Bit strange for a country with one of the worlds largest maritime economic zones, one which uses the sea for recreation to a remarkable extent.

Fookin’ amateurs.

[alanzs]

You will be wishing guns when one day in the future a belligerent nation comes knocking on our door.................that we have been raped of what little security we had ( an air strike force ) is the biggest act of tyranny of this outgoing Government. On that act alone the leaders of the Labour party should be hanged.The 50,000 extra civil servants we are now suffering would be a much better manpower resource manning a credible Air Force.

I believe there should be an appropriate balance between guns and butter.

[Swoop]

It comes back to the old adage about the purpose of the welfare state. Is it to provide a safety net, or to provide a hammock?

In NZ, the taxpayer is burdened with providing a 4-poster bed AND room service...

Pity, then, that when offered reciprocal capital contracts with Aus during the frigate build programme we, (and by we I mean Hullen), declined the deal, which would have formed the basis of a huge local high-tech light ship building industry. Culpable negligence you might say, but no, such deals are anathema to our current administration, make peace they said, not warships.

Fookin’ amateurs.

That is what we get when Green fuckwits get into Wellywood's circular wind tunnel...