That's it. Not voting for Nat

[SPman]

Well, this seems to be a common response

That policy is one of the reasons I WILL be voting Nats.

, as if it's all new.
They are already doing all this stuff.
"The days of high unemployment where people signed on and sat at home forever without hearing from WINZ has been over for some time. Forcing people on to courses, cutting people off who refuse to go to interviews - all those things are routine now. The only new thing Key offers is to make the unemployed re-apply after one year, which is another bureaucratic procedure that one would have thought National would want to reduce."
I don't know about at the moment, but the average time a person was on the DPB used to be about 18 months - most people I know, apart from my druggy sister, got off as soon as possible. Yet, the old fear, the self righteous indignation, about millions of bludgers breeding for profit and using MY money to do it, always seems to strike a reactionary chord with people who think with their arse! Or hind brain...or something, because they sure as hell don't normally use what passes for a brain! It's knee jerk, fuck them, I'm alright so they should be too, lynching time, whenever the subject comes up.
Of course we all know the exceptions, but, believe it or not, they are actually in the minority, yet they seem to be what a lot of people take as normal.
Interesting seeing the knee jerkers on here...........

[James Deuce]

Stuff about finding it hard to make ends meet for yourself.

- Please don't take the following rant as directed at you mate. It's just "my way" OK?

We're talking about the DPB. You know, parents who suddenly find themselves in sole charge and needing time to get some sort of life in order. Divorce, death, vegetative state, sudden disappearance, prison terms, stuff that one half of the parenting equation has no control over when it happens to the other half.

You can plan all you want. Things turn to shit, but you lot would rather chuck good people into the gutter to let "Darwin" sort it out.

That is an unspeakably horrible attitude. Anyone sitting here reading this and having their indignant ire raised by what I've just said should reflect on the fact that I wouldn't wish the last 14 years of my life on even you. Ever held a twitching dying 3 month old foetus and wondered what could have been? Ever held an 8 month old baby struggling to breathe and had him stop? Ever wondered why the Geneticist was laughing at you as she delivered the news about Trisomy 21? Ever watched 75% of the coffee group you find yourself going to to share some of the shit around lose their partners (invariably pathetic men) because they can't "cope"? Ever seen the bashing society gives those people (invariably women) left holding the can because they have a kid who will be a "drain" on society their whole life and they're on the DPB too? Ever watched those people who have the capacity to do so go back to their job as a CEO, hire a live in nanny and never even spend any time whatsoever with their broken kid?

I'd guess not. Life has been really, really good to most of you, and just like Marie Antoinette, it is beyond your comprehension when "they" don't cope. There's more of them, of us, out there than you think. Your scorn and derision, and righteous indignation at them being such abject visible failures is not only damaging it speaks volumes about your lack of compassion, of empathy, of understanding, and explains why we still struggle so much with the negative aspects of our society. You all talk about helping people out, but when it's really needed you just melt away because it doesn't suit the self-picture of the heroic effort you think you are meant to give. "They used to have a good job and live well, what's wrong with them? They should get their shit together!"

I have about the right number of fingers to add up the number of people who've helped me keep the tattered remains of my personality together. A couple of them reside here. A couple of them were a complete surprise. I can't describe what some of these people have done for me. Suffice to say none of them were from the Government, none of them were the people you would think felt they needed to step up. But I'm still married, still enjoying my kids, still riding my bike to and from work and I've not strangled a single short-sighted, small-minded, arse-brained Government flunky yet.

I'm doing the best I can. If that doesn't meet your expectations, well, in all seriousness, it doesn't matter, does it?. If I suck a kumara on the way home in that really heavy rain/hail out there, I'll just be another annoying Internet denizen with high expectations of his fellow humans NOT wasting characters on a computer screen anymore.

I don't expect anything from you, but how many cries for help have you missed? How many times have you let your personal "life's good, don't waste it" filter interpret a vision of someone's life as pathetic and useless and below your help (including tax) because it's a waste of time helping out those darkies/beneficiaries/DPB bludgers/mental patients?

We're supposed to be "evolving", developing a society with room for different expressions of a meaningful life and supporting people to do that. For 99% of people, "Good one mate" is good enough. Some people need a LOT more.

[avgas]

Sometimes a vision of a gun springs into the grey matter.

Make sure you bring enough bullets so we all can vote.
We'll call it a reforendom. Except this time we will actually get heard.

[Big Dave]

No right thinking individual can bemoan a social security safety net, and the hope it is deployed with due compassion.

What causes rancor in your hard working taxpayer is if it's mailed out as a reward for simple can't be arsedness.

[avgas]

James Deuce.
You obviously did not see/read or follow any of my comments - i suggest you do so. As it clearly states it more descript terms.
- Wipe benefit slate clean
- Get people to apply and maintain relationship with Govt
- Remove the drains from the system

Or are you quite happy to see genuine mums/dads struggle for meals while the rich list live on a benefit in their $$$,$$$ houses?

You will be amazed by the survival mettle of people when hardness are put in front of them. But i am not even asking that level of dedication.

[James Deuce]

James Deuce.
You obviously did not see/read or follow any of my comments - i suggest you do so. As it clearly states it more descript terms.
- Wipe benefit slate clean
- Get people to apply and maintain relationship with Govt
- Remove the drains from the system

Or are you quite happy to see genuine mums/dads struggle for meals while the rich list live on a benefit in their $$$,$$$ houses?

You will be amazed by the survival mettle of people when hardness are put in front of them. But i am not even asking that level of dedication.

You didn't read mine, so we're even.

[BIHB@0610]

I'm sure for persistent work dodgers the armed forces would find good use for them.

Target practice springs to mind.

[Mom]

Not long after my first marraige went splat I was working 25 hours a week, had a bit of income from rental property, I was making my way, no more, no less. I had 3 children ages 14, 12 and 9 to support. The job I was doing became redundant due to the sale of the business. I got 6 weeks notice.

Because I was sole supporter of my kids and I live in a small town that can limit employment opportunities I decided to investigate some state support on the off chance I did not find another job in time.

Conversation went a bit like this...

Amounts may be wrong due to recall, but that wont matter.

WINZ: Your base benefit will be $145 per week
ME: Great my rent is $240 per week
WINZ: you are eligible for accomodation suppliment of $100 per week
ME: Excellent, I now have $5 for food, power, telephone etc
WINZ: You can get Family support for each of the children
ME: Sadly I am not eligible for family support due to winding up of business my anticipated income precludes any family support
WINZ: You can earn $80 perweek without affecting your entitlement - have you any other income?
ME: Yes, but it is a bit over $80 per week
WINZ: you wont get accomodation supplement then
ME: hmmmmmm, so I am back at $145 per week then?
WINZ: yes, it appears that way
ME: Fuck the benefit then, I will go pack shelves at the supermarket!

I did not have to go pack shelves, though I would have happily.

Where did I go wrong...LOL

[Speedracer]

What we really need is guaranteed employment.

Show up at the job centre at 8am. Get allocated a job that meets your ability. Go home at 5pm with money you earned.

Got a bad back ? No worries. Got a don't-bend-down job for you.

Got kids ? No worries, put them in the creche, like other working mums do. Maybe if you are good, you can get a job there.

Didn't Hitler use this to rebuild Germany?
Didn't Russia try this on with Communism?

Some of the issue is $ and c. How much would you pay someone to sleep for an hour, lean on a shovel for a 2 hour chin wag, grudgingly do an hour of work, have an afternoon nap, do a few laps in the company truck and then woohoo it's knock off time.

Or more realistically, what about handicapped people? or people who need constant supervision?

The other problem is temping doesn't give you a salary. If you get sick you're screwed. If you need a holiday, forget it. On the dole you've got all the time in the world, just no money. Finally there is the issue of training. Every job requires some training - if a new guy comes on the job every day, either the job is so simple it doesn't require training (which is getting rare these days) or you'll spend half their time training them.

What about work for the dole? wasn't that the same idea?


In principle I agree, but I'm not sure it will work in reality, given that only the people who have no skills and no motivation will use it, finding jobs to give to the workers will prove very hard. The only way you will give everyone a job is if there are excess jobs available. Lets face it, you'll get a bigger bang for your buck if you pay someone who's motivated for $20 an hour than someone who will sit on their shovel all day because they're not used to work coming off the dole for minimum wage... The only way you will get excess jobs is if they are paid peanuts or the govt 'makes up' jobs i.e. subsidises the cost or creates rubbish jobs. I think there are subsidies available to employers taking on people off the dole for this reason. And WINZ people are always trying to find a job for people on the dole to move into.

In summary WINZ is that place with a long term view. And the jobs otherwise simply don't exist unless the govt creates them, at a huge cost, possibly more than the dole?

[Fatjim]

- Please don't take the following rant as directed at you mate. It's just "my way" OK?

We're talking about the DPB. You know, parents who suddenly find themselves in sole charge and needing time to get some sort of life in order. Divorce, death, vegetative state, sudden disappearance, prison terms, stuff that one half of the parenting equation has no control over when it happens to the other half.

You can plan all you want. Things turn to shit, but you lot would rather chuck good people into the gutter to let "Darwin" sort it out.

That is an unspeakably horrible attitude. Anyone sitting here reading this and having their indignant ire raised by what I've just said should reflect on the fact that I wouldn't wish the last 14 years of my life on even you. Ever held a twitching dying 3 month old foetus and wondered what could have been? Ever held an 8 month old baby struggling to breathe and had him stop? Ever wondered why the Geneticist was laughing at you as she delivered the news about Trisomy 21? Ever watched 75% of the coffee group you find yourself going to to share some of the shit around lose their partners (invariably pathetic men) because they can't "cope"? Ever seen the bashing society gives those people (invariably women) left holding the can because they have a kid who will be a "drain" on society their whole life and they're on the DPB too? Ever watched those people who have the capacity to do so go back to their job as a CEO, hire a live in nanny and never even spend any time whatsoever with their broken kid?

I'd guess not. Life has been really, really good to most of you, and just like Marie Antoinette, it is beyond your comprehension when "they" don't cope. There's more of them, of us, out there than you think. Your scorn and derision, and righteous indignation at them being such abject visible failures is not only damaging it speaks volumes about your lack of compassion, of empathy, of understanding, and explains why we still struggle so much with the negative aspects of our society. You all talk about helping people out, but when it's really needed you just melt away because it doesn't suit the self-picture of the heroic effort you think you are meant to give. "They used to have a good job and live well, what's wrong with them? They should get their shit together!"

I have about the right number of fingers to add up the number of people who've helped me keep the tattered remains of my personality together. A couple of them reside here. A couple of them were a complete surprise. I can't describe what some of these people have done for me. Suffice to say none of them were from the Government, none of them were the people you would think felt they needed to step up. But I'm still married, still enjoying my kids, still riding my bike to and from work and I've not strangled a single short-sighted, small-minded, arse-brained Government flunky yet.

I'm doing the best I can. If that doesn't meet your expectations, well, in all seriousness, it doesn't matter, does it?. If I suck a kumara on the way home in that really heavy rain/hail out there, I'll just be another annoying Internet denizen with high expectations of his fellow humans NOT wasting characters on a computer screen anymore.

I don't expect anything from you, but how many cries for help have you missed? How many times have you let your personal "life's good, don't waste it" filter interpret a vision of someone's life as pathetic and useless and below your help (including tax) because it's a waste of time helping out those darkies/beneficiaries/DPB bludgers/mental patients?

We're supposed to be "evolving", developing a society with room for different expressions of a meaningful life and supporting people to do that. For 99% of people, "Good one mate" is good enough. Some people need a LOT more.

Somehow, I doubt, that all 320 odd thousand people on the the benefit (apart from the dole) have had it as bad as you. And just think how much better it could have been for you in terms of govt support, if there wasn't so many people willing to bludge! (I'm not saying they all are, but there are many).

I spent some time unemployed once. I had to wait 10 weeks to get anything from them. I had 3 kids and a wife, and a $800 a week mortgage. Then I had to pay a whole lot of it back because I actually got a job! When you actually pay taxes, and lots of them, you get pissed at people who are STEALING your money. And then when you need the system yourself, it says "FUCK OFF! We're too busy paying solo mums who are pumping out children to help you".

So yes, you've had some hard times. BUT ITS NOT THE POINT! The point is that there are lots of people out there ripping the system off at working peoples expense and the system has got out of hand!

[RiderInBlack]

Urban Myths and Spin Doctoring.

There are a lot posting on here that think that there is a lot of Women getting pregnant on purpose so that they can live on the DPB. To those I ask:
How many Solo parents have you meet that have purposely chosen to have kids so they can get the DPB?

I have not meet one. Most of the ones I have meet would rather had work than had kids, but once the kids have come in to the picture, have put the kids before themselves. Child Rearing is not an easy "job". It is the most important job you will ever have in ya life. It is the job that nobody is going ta get right, especially Child Psychologist.

I would argue that those that want ta believe the "Spin Doctoring" that Women are purposely chosing ta get pregnant so they can live on the DPB, are doing so to justify they poor attiute to those that are on the DPB. I would also suggest that they have no idea how little DPB actual covers the day to day cost of supporting a child.

[James Deuce]

Somehow, I doubt, that all 320 odd thousand people on the the benefit (apart from the dole) have had it as bad as you. And just think how much better it could have been for you in terms of govt support, if there wasn't so many people willing to bludge! (I'm not saying they all are, but there are many).

Two of my kids are included in those stats. The issue is not clear cut and dried.

A big chunk of the people in those stats have had it much worse.
I've been out of work for months on end and sold stuff to keep going rather than go on a benefit. For some people it gets to the no other choice point fairly rapidly.

[davereid]

No right thinking individual can bemoan a social security safety net, and the hope it is deployed with due compassion.

What causes rancor in your hard working taxpayer is if it's mailed out as a reward for simple can't be arsedness.

Exactly true.

The Nats plan does not cut any benefits.

It doesn't reduce the value of the safety net.

What it is starting to do, and IMHO should increasingly do, is offer that support by way of guaranteed employment, rather than simple handout.

The genuine, who want a job, will be pleased to take the opportunity to earn their own money.

The policy perhaps should be "A job for everyone who wants one" and we should consider the issue of those incapable of work quite differently from those unmotivated to work.

[MSTRS:Me]

Urban Myths and Spin Doctoring.

There are a lot posting on here that think that there is a lot of Women getting pregnant on purpose so that they can live on the DPB. To those I ask:
How many Solo parents have you meet that have purposely chosen to have kids so they can get the DPB?

I have not meet one. Most of the ones I have meet would rather had work than had kids, but once the kids have come in to the picture, have put the kids before themselves. Child Rearing is not an easy "job". It is the most important job you will ever have in ya life. It is the job that nobody is going ta get right, especially Child Psychologist.

I would argue that those that want ta believe the "Spin Doctoring" that Women are purposely chosing ta get pregnant so they can live on the DPB, are doing so to justify they poor attiute to those that are on the DPB. I would also suggest that they have no idea how little DPB actual covers the day to day cost of supporting a child.

I have personally (over)heard a bloke, who was on some sort of benefit, advising his 15yo daughter to get pregnant so she could go on the DPB (just like her older sister) and stay living at home (just like her older sister) in order to boost the family income. What really appalled me was that he explained to her that cos she was a 'dumb Maori' she would never get a job and as long as she kept having kids, she'd be set for life.
So don't tell me that there are no bludgers out there milking the system.
I don't have a problem with assistance for those that find themselves in 'a situation'...that's what it is there for...but I do have a problem with those that target that assistance, or who become dependent on it longterm.

[RiderInBlack]

So don't tell me that there are no bludgers out there milking the system.
I don't have a problem with assistance for those that find themselves in 'a situation'...that's what it is there for...but I do have a problem with those that target that assistance, or who become dependent on it longterm.

I'm not, BUT so many are making out that many of those on DPB have done so on purpose and there by justifying their attitude toward DPB.
I would be fully behind any policy that increased the amount a person could earn on the DPB with better scaling as their income increased to help encourage seeking work and to get off DPB.
As for Nat's policy, I would feel better if the age of the youngest child was 13yrs plus, not 6yrs, to better match the amount of independe ce one could expect the child to have. Don't forget there are a lot of home-schooled kids out there now too.