VFR800 and a Blackbird

[geoffm]

Botany Honda had a shiny VFR800 VTEC demo in stock, and the nice mane let me take it out for a spin on Saturday, when it wasn't actually raining for once.
This was the first VFR I have ridden, after reading years of reviews.
First impressions are good - it fits well, and the red colour is niiice. V4 needs some nice mufflers...
Fought my way through suburban hell of Chapel road after a wrong turn - been while since I have been out this way, until I finally get out towards Clevedon Maraiti and Whitford. The traffic at least proved that the Honda doesn't roast you in the traffic like the Triumph I took out a few weekends ago
First impressions are of mild understeer with a tendancy to sit up in the corners, especially in slow traffic. This could be underinflated tyres (most likely), suspension setup or tyre profile - stock tyres are MEZ4 Metzlers. The other impression is there are bloody heap of slow, smelly diesel SUVs on the road out there, usually in all the fun bits. Overall , it was a fun bike - easy to ride and went well - it really needed a longer test - just to be sure you know, but the shop people wanted to go home....
The Vtech changeover was noticeable on small throttle openings (say 1/8th throttle) as a miss, other than that, it was more of a change in volume and get up and go above 6k.
Brakes were good - I was quite impressed with them.
Overall - pretty impressed. I still think the Vech is a solution looking for a problem, and it dramatically increases valve clearance costs at 20,000km on an already expensive -to-service motor and calls for special tools. By my reckoning the big service with valve adjustments is around $1000.
I felt the suspension could be better, as it felt a bit harsh over bumps and tar patches - there isn't any real adjustment and there is a certain budget feel to it. A few more miles on it might help, and it is nothing that money won't fix...
Honda offer an OEM bag set for $2100, but the Givi PLX166 and V35 bags are basically identical and cheaper and fit nicely on this bike, although are not colour coded like the Honda ones. Givi make the Honda bags anyway...
The SW-Motech brackets are an alternative as well (with Givi bags) as the have QD fittings. Most aftermarket panniers look like an afterthought, as do so some factory systems. The Triumph was the tidiest without the bags.
VFR power is adequate rather than outstanding - 100hp. Enough to pass most things at road speeds, but a bit more would be nice.
The Triumph might have had the edge in handling, but some setup on the VFR would help, and decent suspension work on either would give a definite winner. The Sprint had more power and smoother without the Vtech gadgetry, but it I felt it was a bike that "could have been so good and the clear winner, if only..."

The original plan was to take the black Blackbird out that they had at the same time, but they had sold it. If you have bought a Blackbird with a 4-1 from Botany Honda recenlty, you upset all my careful plans...
I went to Cyclespot and took this one out:
Now it is a second hand bike, although very tidy, but i was a bit disappointed. I had big hopes for the Blackbird. There is certainly more power, but the weight was more noticable and steering was slower and harder to turn in. Lot of this is the tyres - if you buy this bike, plan on a set of tyres sooner rather than later. Away from the pine trees, and slippy corners and out on the open road with more open corners, it felt a lot more composed.
Very fast and smooth, it could easily cost a lot of speeding fines as you don't realise how quick you are going.
The ride was smoother than the VFR, although some of this is due to a longer wheelbase and more weight. Not being able to do a back to back on the same roads makes comparisons harder.
I was disappointed in the brakes - they felt wooden, although they are effective as proven on the motorway on the way back, with a car deciding to stop in the middle of the lane.

One thing I couldn't' check was the pillion accommodation. I suspect the 'Bird would have the advantage there with a bit more room, and of course more power to take the extra weight. (No you are not fat dear, i didn't really mean that.

A new VFR is around $18,500 (list) with Givi panniers or $19,200 with Honda bags vs $21.5k for the Triumph Sprint ST which comes with bags as standard. It is hard to justify the extra.
I haven't compared insurance costs - Kiwibike never got back to me and i need to chase them up.
I also need to compare service costs to get a fair "total cost of ownership" comparison between the various options.

Geoff

[Swoop]

V4 needs some nice mufflers...

The Vtech changeover was noticable on small throttle openings (say 1/8th throttle) as a miss, other than that, it was more of a change in volume and get up and go above 6k.

The stock cans are superb... with a small amount of modification
Vtech only kicks in at 6800rpm, so I'm wondering what the "noticeable on small throttle openings" is all about???
I have the stock BT20's and was slightly concerned with reports about them. However, they have proven to be superb! Wet and dry.
With all the rumours abounding of the VFR1000 "due for release" (don't hold your breath...) the stock 105Hp could be upped a bit. Unfortunately I'm sure the insurance company will see the "litre bike" flag and up the premiums accordingly.

[Blackbird]

The "feel" of the 'bird is very dependent on the type of tyres fitted. If it's OEM tyres, then they are not the best available. Avon Storms or Pilot Power 2CT's will transform it. Also, the low cost mod to make the 'bird even quicker handling is to fit a 6mm ride height spacer on top of the standard shock. A 30 minute job. With regard to rider and passenger comfort on Honda sports tourers, all of them are average at best. Fixed mine 3 years ago with a "rider" brand seat conversion like so many other KB members.

I've had my 'bird for nearly 7 years and in all modesty; pretty much know it inside out. If you're serious about the possibility of owning one, PM me and ask away for details. Sad bastard that I am, I also have a log of the maintenance costs!

What year is the one you're looking at?

Cheers,

Geoff

[geoffm]

The stock cans are superb... with a small amount of modification
Vtech only kicks in at 6800rpm, so I'm wondering what the "noticeable on small throttle openings" is all about???
I have the stock BT20's and was slightly concerned with reports about them. However, they have proven to be superb! Wet and dry.
With all the rumours abounding of the VFR1000 "due for release" (don't hold your breath...) the stock 105Hp could be upped a bit. Unfortunately I'm sure the insurance company will see the "litre bike" flag and up the premiums accordingly.

ok, so I got the rpm reading wrong - i was dodging 4WDs at the time :-).
By "noticeable at small throttle openings" I mean I went "looking for it" to see where it was noticeable to see how bad it was since some people complained about it.
Don't get me wrong, the Vtec VFR was very good, and will probably the weapon of choice, and the Vtec has been around for 6 years, so is well proven, but it adds complexity without value (apart from I assume, emissions)
I had BT020s on the K100, and they were good. THey were half worn when it got totalled and were holding up well, with the promise of more life than the MEZ6s. They were squirrelly over tar snakes though, and I never really fanged it in the wet, but they never gave me any problems.
Be interesting to see what the maintenance costs and insurance costs come back at - it could be a deciding factor.

[geoffm]

The "feel" of the 'bird is very dependent on the type of tyres fitted. If it's OEM tyres, then they are not the best available. Avon Storms or Pilot Power 2CT's will transform it. Also, the low cost mod to make the 'bird even quicker handling is to fit a 6mm ride height spacer on top of the standard shock. A 30 minute job. With regard to rider and passenger comfort on Honda sports tourers, all of them are average at best. Fixed mine 3 years ago with a "rider" brand seat conversion like so many other KB members.

I've had my 'bird for nearly 7 years and in all modesty; pretty much know it inside out. If you're serious about the possibility of owning one, PM me and ask away for details. Sad bastard that I am, I also have a log of the maintenance costs!

What year is the one you're looking at?

Cheers,

Geoff

Looking at the FI ones (post 02) - probably a fairly recent one.
It would have been nice to ride one with good tyres (and have a bit more time and gas) to give it a fair shake - I didn't notice they were worn until I got back - still very legal, but flattening off. they are Bridgestone BT57s.
Bike has 11500km on it, so I assume they have been replaced.
They have a reputation for being as reliable as a hammer, and the maintenance of an inline 4 would be less time consuming than the v4.What have you had to do to yours?
G

[Scruffygit]

Looking at the FI ones (post 02) - probably a fairly recent one.
It would have been nice to ride one with good tyres (and have a bit more time and gas) to give it a fair shake - I didn't notice they were worn until I got back - still very legal, but flattening off. they are Bridgestone BT57s.
Bike has 11500km on it, so I assume they have been replaced.
They have a reputation for being as reliable as a hammer, and the maintenance of an inline 4 would be less time consuming than the v4.What have you had to do to yours?
G

BT57s they were fitting them when the wheel was first invented. As Geoff said, tyres make a huge difference and the Avons and Michelins are highly regarded along with the older Bridgestone 020. The new Dunlop Roadsmarts are getting good reviews as well. The only other thing I would say is that they really polarize opinion, possibly more so than any other bike I've ridden - I've got Avon Storms fitted and love them, I hate Mitchelins with a passion. Other people don't get on with either and love the Bridgestones, etc.

With the 'Bird it really is a case of buying on condition rather than mileage (and colour, they are called BLACKbirds for a reason you know. In Joke, sorry) - there are several examples in the UK that have done more than 250,000 miles (400,000 km) with no major work. And no, that is not finger trouble, I do mean 1/4million miles.

I've had mine five years and am shipping her out from the UK which should say something about how I feel about her. There is nothing on the market at the moment that I would wan to swap her for.

Oh, the first injected ones were in 1999. You're probably thinking of the digital dash which came out in 2001.

[gammaguy]

I still think the Vech is a solution looking for a problem, and it dramatically increases valve clearance costs at 20,000km on an already expensive -to-service motor and calls for special tools. By my reckoning the big service with valve adjustments is around $1000.

i can confirm that.we have five of the buggers in the rental fleet i service and i set aside a whole day to do the valves.the cams have to come out,special shims inserted in the VTEC side valve buckets,the whole lot has to go back together,then the clearances are checked.then the whole lot comes apart again for the shims to be changed,then finally re-assembled.the special VTEC checking shims are availabl from your friendly honda dealer though.

having said all that we hav good service from them and the valves hold their clearances well.the previous models we had were non vtec,gear driven cams though and were faster and never needed the valve clearances adjusting.


so yer takes yer choice.....

[Blackbird]

Looking at the FI ones (post 02) - probably a fairly recent one.
It would have been nice to ride one with good tyres (and have a bit more time and gas) to give it a fair shake - I didn't notice they were worn until I got back - still very legal, but flattening off. they are Bridgestone BT57s.
Bike has 11500km on it, so I assume they have been replaced.
They have a reputation for being as reliable as a hammer, and the maintenance of an inline 4 would be less time consuming than the v4.What have you had to do to yours?
G

As Scruffygit said, they're capable of huge mileages without laying a spanner on them as long as you use a good semi-synthetic oil and change it regularly. I get the cam shims checked every 20000 km or so but they've never moved and this is pretty typical of 'birds. The injected 'birds came out in '99 and as S/g says, digi dash and cat exhaust system in 2002. The cat dropped peak power by about 12 hp but in real life, you'd never notice the difference. Pre-2002, alternator stators and reg/rectifiers usually failed after a few years. I had my alternator rebuilt to a higher spec in Hamilton for $200 as opposed to ~$800 for a new Honda one. Upgraded reg/recs are a similar price although I haven't needed one yet. Post 2002, you don't have either issue. I changed my cam chain tensioner at 60000 km and it took less than an hour. You could expect ~8000 km from a rear Avon Storm, half as much again from a front as a rough guide. I run an Avon Viper sticky front at present and I think that will last ~8000 km, maybe a bit less.

You can buy lots of extras for 'birds from around the world but there's a place in the UK that specialises in them and delivers to NZ in about 7 days - fantastic service. My '99 model has done 67000 km and the OEM rear shock damping is going off so I've just ordered a much higher spec Penske to replace it. I also fitted slightly lowered footpegs last year as I have damaged cartilages - made the world of difference. I've also got other bling such as a hugger and double bubble, to name just 2 of the extras. As I mentioned previously, I've had it for 7 years as it still fits my needs.... long distance touring, 2 up with my wife and fanging with the lads. It's the sort of bike you keep rather than change every other year.

Performance wise, the cat 'birds do 0-100 in ~3 seconds, 0-200 in less than 8 seconds with a top speed of ~285 km/hr so they are no slouches. They have a range of over 300 km to a tankful.

Having said all this, your final choice will be very much influenced by looks. I LOVE the look, others don't. Vive la difference! Incidentally, my bike before the bird was a K100 RS.

If you want detailed running costs, let me know.

[insomnia01]

well said Geoff,

I know of a couple of people who have found themselves in the same position as yourself & they have both gone for the lesser cc ( VFR ) & within a few months gone & purchased either a blackbird or CB1300. Really both options mentioned ( BB & CB ) are big brother versions of the VFR. My vote BLACKBIRD ALL THE WAY !!!!

[Scruffygit]

Going back to tyres, I forgot to mention the 'Bird is VERY susceptible to tyre pressures. 42psi F&R.