All those in favour of standard Superbikes?

[roogazza]

17 pro twins entered the VMCC winter series, but only 7 did more than two meetings and it looks like 5 did all rounds of the last Nationals.

17 !! really ! well thats better than I thought.
Seriously Wharfy, its the way to go I reckon. Its just a shame I'm getting a bit past it now, I'd be in like Flinn if I was a bit more youthful. Gaz.

[wharfy]

17 !! really ! well thats better than I thought.
Seriously Wharfy, its the way to go I reckon. Its just a shame I'm getting a bit past it now, I'd be in like Flinn if I was a bit more youthful. Gaz.

More youthful - you mean, like me

[wharfy]

So who can tell me why I should "undercut" my gears and "slot" my cam wheels if I had a pro twin ?

[Maido]

You dont have to do either.
under cutting gears in basically a prevention to stop gears jumping out and to give the gear box a more positive shift, it gives no proformance benefits only a reliability benefit.
slotting cams is one rule i just don't see why they use. Sure you can adjust cam timing but in theory in production racing you should only be able to move the cam gears as far as the bolt hole will let you? (in the case of honda it is somewhere between .5 and 1 degree in either direction) Slotting cams is great if you have lots of spare hours on a free dyno to be able to find the best valve timing.

[Sketchy_Racer]

I never got the Cam slotting either.. sorta defeats a lot of the idea of this class. and also, im sure people will think.. while i've got it apart, whos going to know if i shave .5mm off the head to up the compression.. and the cheating begins..

[svr]

I never got the Cam slotting either.. sorta defeats a lot of the idea of this class. and also, im sure people will think.. while i've got it apart, whos going to know if i shave .5mm off the head to up the compression.. and the cheating begins..

It's easy to spot the `fast' bike in a bunch - but there's no bunch unfortunately...
The allowable mods add between 6 and 10k to the build, and make it maybe 1.5 sec `faster'. If you want to be on a bike that you feel is of no disadvantage you have to spend this.
So about double the cost of the bike itself. It will still handle / stop and go a lot worse than a bog standard 600, for about the same money.

[wharfy]

You dont have to do either.
under cutting gears in basically a prevention to stop gears jumping out and to give the gear box a more positive shift, it gives no proformance benefits only a reliability benefit.
slotting cams is one rule i just don't see why they use. Sure you can adjust cam timing but in theory in production racing you should only be able to move the cam gears as far as the bolt hole will let you? (in the case of honda it is somewhere between .5 and 1 degree in either direction) Slotting cams is great if you have lots of spare hours on a free dyno to be able to find the best valve timing.

Cheers, that is about what I though "undercutting" the gears was, but have to confess to having no clue as to what "slotting" the cam wheels was.
I sure does seem like a lot of effort for a small benefit.

I could do a lot of practice laps for that !!! AND I would have to DIET and EXERCISE to take advantage of it - bugger that

Does anyone race anything apart from the Suzuki SV650 ?

[Robert Taylor]

After re-reading my post - I quite like the whole thing actually ! :-)

I use the lovley Ohlins gear & Kerry Dukie's excellent service because it allows me go slightly faster & is of course more easily adjusted to variable conditions & tracks. If the rules didnt allow it - I wouldnt use it & personally I wouldnt be to concerned about that.
Nevertheless i race in a formula class - & this is the one class that should most likely allow these types of mod's.
But as this thread is about "production racing" - then there are many other options available.
IMO - they dropped the ball on this one with Pro-Twins, - a great opportunity to create a "stock class".

Glen Williams

90% of the content was indeed very good Glenn. But respectfully there was a little hypocrisy not too unlike the successive leaders of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics preaching the ''good socialist doctrine'' to the masses whilst not sharing in the misery. You had no compunction in getting us to build and develop the best possible Ohlins kit for that bike . Now that you have won a title with the substanial help of same you are only to happy to state that you would be happy to run oem. Mate, that frankly doesnt wash.
Maybe short and light people should be banned from compeition also because they have an unfair advantage.................

[Robert Taylor]

Cheers, that is about what I though "undercutting" the gears was, but have to confess to having no clue as to what "slotting" the cam wheels was.
I sure does seem like a lot of effort for a small benefit.

I could do a lot of practice laps for that !!! AND I would have to DIET and EXERCISE to take advantage of it - bugger that

Does anyone race anything apart from the Suzuki SV650 ?

No undercutting ( on a bike made and only intended as a commuter ) means that the gearbox will wear and jump out of gear a lot sooner. Spending money in such areas save money in the long term.

[Mishy]

So who can tell me why I should "undercut" my gears and "slot" my cam wheels if I had a pro twin ?

I'm totally in favour of undercutting the dogs in the grearbox, and it's just a way of making sure that you don't have a failure on the track- like a bike that jumps out of gear. Indexing is also important , so I think It's a good idea to do both any time you have the bike apart. We run a 600 SP bike, and won't even hit the track without undercutting and indexing the gearbox first. The undercutting makes the dogs in the gearbox drag the gears together, rather than let them slide apart, while indexng ensures that all the dogs contact at the same time. We had some "issues" with a Kawasaki gearbox, and I had to do this by hand with a dremel (at midnight on a race weekend - gutted !). The stock box was so bad that my effort was closer than some of the other gears in the box. It's not uncommon for the original gears to be a mile off, and having very little undercut makes them shift into 1st real clean and smooth (nice on a road bike), but it's not good if you want a race gearbox to last - you need undercut for that.
Cam sprockets? I'm not so sure I agree with the rule on that, but then I don't make the rules . . . . . .

[Robert Taylor]

I'm totally in favour of undercutting the dogs in the grearbox, and it's just a way of making sure that you don't have a failure on the track- like a bike that jumps out of gear. Indexing is also important , so I think It's a good idea to do both any time you have the bike apart. We run a 600 SP bike, and won't even hit the track without undercutting and indexing the gearbox first. The undercutting makes the dogs in the gearbox drag the gears together, rather than let them slide apart, while indexng ensures that all the dogs contact at the same time. We had some "issues" with a Kawasaki gearbox, and I had to do this by hand with a dremel (at midnight on a race weekend - gutted !). The stock box was so bad that my effort was closer than some of the other gears in the box. It's not uncommon for the original gears to be a mile off, and having very little undercut makes them shift into 1st real clean and smooth (nice on a road bike), but it's not good if you want a race gearbox to last - you need undercut for that.
Cam sprockets? I'm not so sure I agree with the rule on that, but then I don't make the rules . . . . . .

Absolutely right, many modern gearboxes are engineered by accountants, all that holds them in gear is a combination of shift drum detent spring tension and good luck.

[codgyoleracer]

90% of the content was indeed very good Glenn. But respectfully there was a little hypocrisy not too unlike the successive leaders of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics preaching the ''good socialist doctrine'' to the masses whilst not sharing in the misery. You had no compunction in getting us to build and develop the best possible Ohlins kit for that bike . Now that you have won a title with the substanial help of same you are only to happy to state that you would be happy to run oem. Mate, that frankly doesnt wash.
Maybe short and light people should be banned from compeition also because they have an unfair advantage.................

I can only assume (by the time of your post) - that youve been out celebrating with that tory nationaloistic mob of yours and in celebrating their win & having had a few to many wines :-)
To repeat though - If the rules were more inclined to stock standard stuff - i would still be out there having a go & having fun irrespective, - hopefully i would still run near the pointy end of the field as the fact of the matter is that suspension is only one small part of quite a big puzzle to put a good result together.
And with respect to this thread title - By my current count there will be as little as 10 bikes doing all rounds of the NZ Superbike title this year - , is that a good thing ?
P.S There are laws preventing us from minoritizing against height defective & weight efficient people in our sport, - however we set our own rules in respect to machine specification.

[Robert Taylor]

I can only assume (by the time of your post) - that youve been out celebrating with that tory nationaloistic mob of yours and in celebrating their win have had a few to many wines :-)
To repeat though - If the rules were more inclined to stock standard stuff - i would still be out there having a go & having fun irrespective, - hopefully i would still run near the pointy end of the field as the fact of the matter is that suspension is only one small part of quite a big puzzle to put a good result together.
And with respect to this thread title - By my current count there will be as little as 10 bikes doing all rounds of the NZ Superbike title this year - , is that a good thing ?
P.S There are laws preventing us from minoritizing against height defective & weight efficient people in our sport, - however we set our own rules in respect to machine specification.

And a great result it was too, another 10 seats would have been even better!
Yes, I know you would still be out there but you ( seemingly deliberately )understate how important and big a piece of the puzzle suspension is. I am making the point and again I make it ( respectfully ) that your post had a little hypocrisy in it.
Given the current economic climate 10 is a low number yes, but the economic climate should not be justification in itself to bastardise the rules. Think also that one of the distributors has massively increased its committment in road race and mx. Its not all doom and gloom and as I have said elsewhere we should not talk ourselves into it.
I quoted the example of short / lightweight riders to merely illustrate how ridiculous and ( if you like ) ''socialist'' some of our thinking is. Tall poppies get cut.

[Shaun]

[QUOTE=Robert Taylor;1817143]90% of the content was indeed very good Glenn.

You had no compunction in getting us to build and develop the best possible Ohlins kit for that bike . Now that you have won a title with the substanial help of same you are only to happy to state that you would be happy to run oem. Mate, that frankly doesnt wash.


He ordered it, he paid for it, he raced with it, and he won with it!

He is a human with his own decision making gland in his brain, and if he, ( AS A BUISNEES OWNER) chooses to say what he thinks and believes, that is his choice Robert.

To say " that frankly dose not wash" is like calling him some thing nasty, and that " Does not wash from a customers point of view"

You are the agent for a great product Robert, but your Sales PR on here is coming across very very staunch mate, customers have there own minds, so please let them use them, with out jumping on them mate.

Thanks for your honesty Glenn

[Sketchy_Racer]

After re-reading my post - I quite like the whole thing actually ! :-)

I use the lovley Ohlins gear & Kerry Dukie's excellent service because it allows me go slightly faster & is of course more easily adjusted to variable conditions & tracks. If the rules didnt allow it - I wouldnt use it & personally I wouldnt be to concerned about that.
Nevertheless i race in a formula class - & this is the one class that should most likely allow these types of mod's.
But as this thread is about "production racing" - then there are many other options available.
IMO - they dropped the ball on this one with Pro-Twins, - a great opportunity to create a "stock class".

Glen Williams

So what you are saying there, Is that you feel that the aftermarket suspension is a nice luxury, but if you weren't allowed it, it wouldn't take away from the fun of racing in the class that you do so (obviously no one else is allowed one either)?

Cheers,

-Glen