All those in favour of standard Superbikes?

[vtec]

And a great result it was too, another 10 seats would have been even better!
Yes, I know you would still be out there but you ( seemingly deliberately )understate how important and big a piece of the puzzle suspension is. I am making the point and again I make it ( respectfully ) that your post had a little hypocrisy in it.
Given the current economic climate 10 is a low number yes, but the economic climate should not be justification in itself to bastardise the rules. Think also that one of the distributors has massively increased its committment in road race and mx. Its not all doom and gloom and as I have said elsewhere we should not talk ourselves into it.
I quoted the example of short / lightweight riders to merely illustrate how ridiculous and ( if you like ) ''socialist'' some of our thinking is. Tall poppies get cut.

"...not too unlike the successive leaders of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics preaching the ''good socialist doctrine'' to the masses whilst not sharing in the misery." This quote of yours applies to you too Robert, you are on the winning side of the fence due to the allowance of extremely expensive (overpriced due to monopoly in NZ?) suspension. You have a vested interest in pushing suspension because you get to make money on it. I've used Ohlins before, and I've used Standard before, and I think that just makes me more educated to make a call it doesn't make me a hypocrit. And just because you say "respectfully" doesn't absolve you of what you say after it hahaha. Standard equipment is fine (in fact good) for racing. And from where I'm sitting the overwhelming majority of motorcycle racers agree with that.

I'm not denying that Ohlins is good suspension, it seems to do the trick. But you don't need aftermarket suspension to have fair fast fun exciting racing if everybody is in the same boat, it's as simple as that. If you have problems with tyres not lasting, then run a harder compound, there's scope for controlled tyres too to help longevity aswell.

One of the things that bothered me about having the Ohlins, was that the bike actually felt bad to me, and I never got fully confident and comfortable on the '03 CBR600RR that I had, and the biggest part of my lack of confidence was due to the fact that there were countless suspension variables that I didn't know how to adjust, and it did my head in. If I wanted help I would have had to be one of the front runners. I was top 5 with VMCC top 3 with PMCC and came 12th in my first ever Nationals supersport event, on second hand tyres, an older bike that there were some stability and power issues with, and a bike in which I NEVER got confident on, and without the ability to afford even monthly practice days, all on mine and my non-technical parents help. I would have loved the chance to race on a level playing field. All the while working as a bicycle courier (which kept me permanently exhausted) so I would be fit enough and be able to afford to race.

I gave up my Science degree to go racing, I couldn't do both. And waiting till the end of my degree I would have had a huge student loan, and be too old to make it anywhere.

We aren't trying to cut any tall poppies, we know Ohlins are good, we are just trying to help some small poppies grow in an environment that is currently aimed at keeping the tall poppies tall and the little poppies little (I'm referring to the riders). Currently you've either got to get lucky with sponsors or most commonly know important and knowledgeable people such as yourself.

[codgyoleracer]

So what you are saying there, Is that you feel that the aftermarket suspension is a nice luxury, but if you weren't allowed it, it wouldn't take away from the fun of racing in the class that you do so (obviously no one else is allowed one either)?

Cheers,

-Glen

Hi Glen, Essentially yes.
Under current rules everyone has the possibility to build a bike to a spec like mine or a far better one in fact. (but it does take time, money & experience to do). Of course if the rules were different then everyone would build to that new spec aye.
Personally - i think i would have just as much enjoyment irrespective of minor changes to machine spec.
In respect of Superbikes - they are stinkin fast & a huge amount of fun to ride in near stock spec & probably just as great a specatacle to the average spectator. However - wether "dumbing them down" will bring more competitors to the class is hard to say, - but i do have a few mates telling me that they are not doing it due to cost.
So its worth debating in an open forum like this aye.
GlenW

[Sketchy_Racer]

Hi Glen, Essentially yes.
Under current rules everyone has the possibility to build a bike to a spec like mine or far better one in fact. (but it does take time, money & experience to do). Of course if the rules were different then everyone would build to that new spec aye.
Personally - i think i would have just as much enjoyment irrespective of minor changes to machine spec.
In respect of Superbikes - they are stinkin fast & a huge amount of fun to ride in near stock spec & probably just as great a specatacle to the average spectator. However - wether "dumbing them down" will bring more competitors to the class is hard to say, - but i do have a few mates telling me that they are not doing it due to cost.
So its worth debating in an open forum like this aye.
GlenW

Cool, thanks for that.

It think that a stock class such as supersport or superbike would attract heaps of numbers.
Myself and Jason (vtec) have got ourselves a reasonably priced near stock K5 gixxer 600 to race. I think I will have more fun on that than I would on a $30k supersport bike.

I would love to see a production supersport or superbike class in NZ. I'd be there with bells on.

[jrandom]

In respect of Superbikes - they are stinkin fast & a huge amount of fun to ride in near stock spec & probably just as great a specatacle to the average spectator. However - wether "dumbing them down" will bring more competitors to the class is hard to say, - but i do have a few mates telling me that they are not doing it due to cost.

I bet.

If I could buy myself a stock thou and go straight out and race Superbikes knowing that my lack of skill was the only thing stopping me from winning, I would.

[scrivy]

I bet.

If I could buy myself a stock thou and go straight out and race Superbikes knowing that my lack of skill was the only thing stopping me from winning, I would.

You slut!! What does Betty say about that??

[jrandom]

You slut!! What does Betty say about that??

She says "Thank fuck, racing GSX1400s just ain't right, can you put my panniers back on now?"

[scrivy]

She says "Thank fuck, racing GSX1400s just ain't right, can you put my panniers back on now?"

You took them off her???!!! Where do you put your tools?? They would be handy for the 3 hour.......

[JayRacer37]

Let's not be silly here. Instead of trying to reduce costs all the time, lets let the rules go a bit. We go racing to race fast bikes, with the best parts! Its going to be expensive to do a season weather you are allowed a dead stock bike or a completly over the top one - remember without a deal it is 17k to buy a new bike, then 20k (to be compeditive) worth of tyres, then factor in any crashes or damage, and regular mantanence you have to do. AfterNow double the above for a two bike assult. After that you will need however much it will cost you to live in holiday parks/motels for at least three weeks, probably four by the end of the season, and travel to the rounds including almost a grand of ferries...whats some more costs making the bike faster? Having bikes with higher abilities will also let those riders with higher abilities shine. Why can't we have fun making the bikes as great as they can be...taking what you have and improving it is part of the challenge - look at Glen Williams ever developing SV. His hard work makes it better and better, and he is always trying new things, trying to make advances. Without that mentality you wouldn't have (and now I sound all cliche, but its true) creations like the Britten.

SO, I propose we leave 600SP alone as it is, and then have running parellel a Formula Xtreme 600 class...although noone would enter it would be a drool-fest looking at REALLY REALLY nice 600's in the pits...and wouldn't any racer want to have go on one of these???

[JayRacer37]

I'm not denying that Ohlins is good suspension, it seems to do the trick. But you don't need aftermarket suspension to have fair fast fun exciting racing if everybody is in the same boat, it's as simple as that. If you have problems with tyres not lasting, then run a harder compound, there's scope for controlled tyres too to help longevity aswell.
.

But then as you run the harder compounds and lower quality and feel tyres you take away the ability of the rider to feel to the limit so costs skyrocket in crash repairs. Not only that you bring in a safety risk because the way the stock suspension works means it is unpredictable as it (over)heats. You also put a disadvantage to some people/manufacturers, as not all bikes come with equal suspension, so suddenly the ZRRCRSR637 is a total disadvantage wheras the RRRRRRRSX650 has a huge advantage, because it is better equip stock. At least with the rules as they are everyone has the OPPERTUNITY to be even...make it stock and that is not so.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Let's not be silly here. Instead of trying to reduce costs all the time, lets let the rules go a bit. We go racing to race fast bikes, with the best parts! Its going to be expensive to do a season weather you are allowed a dead stock bike or a completly over the top one - remember without a deal it is 17k to buy a new bike, then 20k (to be compeditive) worth of tyres, then factor in any crashes or damage, and regular mantanence you have to do. AfterNow double the above for a two bike assult. After that you will need however much it will cost you to live in holiday parks/motels for at least three weeks, probably four by the end of the season, and travel to the rounds including almost a grand of ferries...whats some more costs making the bike faster? Having bikes with higher abilities will also let those riders with higher abilities shine. Why can't we have fun making the bikes as great as they can be...taking what you have and improving it is part of the challenge - look at Glen Williams ever developing SV. His hard work makes it better and better, and he is always trying new things, trying to make advances. Without that mentality you wouldn't have (and now I sound all cliche, but its true) creations like the Britten.

I agree mate keeping the current 600SP class is important, maybe even adjust the rules in that class to make the bikes more internationally competitive.

But as you say before you even hit the track to be on a real competitive bike you've already spent nearly $40k. Use someone like myself for example, I simply can't afford that sort of expense on my budget, but I still want to move up to a class where I can be semi competitive but still on 'fast' machines (Yes, I want my cake and eat it too)

SO, I propose we leave 600SP alone as it is, and then have running parellel a Formula Xtreme 600 class...although noone would enter it would be a drool-fest looking at REALLY REALLY nice 600's in the pits...and wouldn't any racer want to have go on one of these???

A Formula Xtreme 600 would be awesome, not only a cheap production class but it would leave the door open for casual road riders to come out and have a play and get a feeling for how competitive they are which equals even more people at the track which is what we want to achieve.

[Sketchy_Racer]

But then as you run the harder compounds and lower quality and feel tyres you take away the ability of the rider to feel to the limit so costs skyrocket in crash repairs. Not only that you bring in a safety risk because the way the stock suspension works means it is unpredictable as it (over)heats. You also put a disadvantage

I would love to have someone show some hard evidence of this or statistics to back it up. Many people have this belief, but I am yet to hear of someone blaming stock suspension or 'hard compound' for their crash. At the end of the day, not matter what your on, it comes back to the fella on top pulling the levers and their understanding of the limit and how close they are prepared to get to that limit.

[Robert Taylor]

[QUOTE=Shaun;1817575]

90% of the content was indeed very good Glenn.

You had no compunction in getting us to build and develop the best possible Ohlins kit for that bike . Now that you have won a title with the substanial help of same you are only to happy to state that you would be happy to run oem. Mate, that frankly doesnt wash.


He ordered it, he paid for it, he raced with it, and he won with it!

He is a human with his own decision making gland in his brain, and if he, ( AS A BUISNEES OWNER) chooses to say what he thinks and believes, that is his choice Robert.

To say " that frankly dose not wash" is like calling him some thing nasty, and that " Does not wash from a customers point of view"

You are the agent for a great product Robert, but your Sales PR on here is coming across very very staunch mate, customers have there own minds, so please let them use them, with out jumping on them mate.

Thanks for your honesty Glenn

Actually I havent said I disagree with a closer to production class. But it is clear that many that post do not actually have a full understanding of the issues.
I get on well with Glenn and know that he wont take my comments with any malice, but I still stick by what I have said ( and think quoting the old USSR comparison injected a bit of fun, Glenn responded in kind ). As I also stated its a democracy, Ive stated my opinions and so have others.

[Robert Taylor]

"...not too unlike the successive leaders of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics preaching the ''good socialist doctrine'' to the masses whilst not sharing in the misery." This quote of yours applies to you too Robert, you are on the winning side of the fence due to the allowance of extremely expensive (overpriced due to monopoly in NZ?) suspension. You have a vested interest in pushing suspension because you get to make money on it. I've used Ohlins before, and I've used Standard before, and I think that just makes me more educated to make a call it doesn't make me a hypocrit. And just because you say "respectfully" doesn't absolve you of what you say after it hahaha. Standard equipment is fine (in fact good) for racing. And from where I'm sitting the overwhelming majority of motorcycle racers agree with that.

I'm not denying that Ohlins is good suspension, it seems to do the trick. But you don't need aftermarket suspension to have fair fast fun exciting racing if everybody is in the same boat, it's as simple as that. If you have problems with tyres not lasting, then run a harder compound, there's scope for controlled tyres too to help longevity aswell.

One of the things that bothered me about having the Ohlins, was that the bike actually felt bad to me, and I never got fully confident and comfortable on the '03 CBR600RR that I had, and the biggest part of my lack of confidence was due to the fact that there were countless suspension variables that I didn't know how to adjust, and it did my head in. If I wanted help I would have had to be one of the front runners. I was top 5 with VMCC top 3 with PMCC and came 12th in my first ever Nationals supersport event, on second hand tyres, an older bike that there were some stability and power issues with, and a bike in which I NEVER got confident on, and without the ability to afford even monthly practice days, all on mine and my non-technical parents help. I would have loved the chance to race on a level playing field. All the while working as a bicycle courier (which kept me permanently exhausted) so I would be fit enough and be able to afford to race.

I gave up my Science degree to go racing, I couldn't do both. And waiting till the end of my degree I would have had a huge student loan, and be too old to make it anywhere.

We aren't trying to cut any tall poppies, we know Ohlins are good, we are just trying to help some small poppies grow in an environment that is currently aimed at keeping the tall poppies tall and the little poppies little (I'm referring to the riders). Currently you've either got to get lucky with sponsors or most commonly know important and knowledgeable people such as yourself.

1 ) I am certainly not getting wealthy out of selling this product and you simply have no idea of the hours that I put in to back it up. Many many of those hours not charged for.
2 ) Monopoly, no. Strongest position in the marketplace by a huge margin yes. But only because we have worked at it very very hard and continue to do so.
3) We help anyone who asks but of course we cannot be everywhere all at the same time. We also have setup manuals for both road and on road that can be e-mailed. Following will be suspension set up seminars in the new year. Irrespective of what level of suspension you use.
4) We must still have some Elite ( Yes, Elite ! ) classes that are relevant to overseas competition. There is as much need for those as there is cost controlled classes. ( Balance )

[Robert Taylor]

I would love to have someone show some hard evidence of this or statistics to back it up. Many people have this belief, but I am yet to hear of someone blaming stock suspension or 'hard compound' for their crash. At the end of the day, not matter what your on, it comes back to the fella on top pulling the levers and their understanding of the limit and how close they are prepared to get to that limit.

Ive heard it a good many times, in spite of being seen to have a vested interest.

[Sketchy_Racer]

Ive heard it a good many times, in spite of being seen to have a vested interest.

Ok, what defines it as being a suspension/tyre problem rather than a rider error? Everyone makes excuses, not having the best suspension of best tyres seems to be a easy one to make excuses about, I know I certainly have in the past, so can understand how easy it is to do so.