My idea of Production 600 rules

[Robert Taylor]

I feel NZ racing would benefit from a class like this run alongside the current Sports Production class

refer to attachment

Cheers,

-Glen

Actually it wouldnt level the playing field as much as you think. For example riders that are tall with lot of body mass ( eg Nick Cole ) would not only require firmer springing but also damping upgrades. Damping is as much overcome by body mass as is springing.
Stock engines yes, but allow an aftermarket muffler and fairings( to reduce the replacement cost of crash damage ) aftermarket ECU ( to sort out the dodgy fueling on some models ) rework / replace fork internals ( various options available) and aftermarket rear shock ( so that spring rates and valving can be customised to the rider stats and style )
What is often overlooked is that unlike many other components aftermarket suspension has residual value in that you can resell it. A very strong second hand market has been created. Answering for myself I am very active in that market as it better suits many peoples budgets.

[Robert Taylor]

I think its going a bit far - should be allowed braided lines in the front and suspension revalving on the stock units and oem replacement parts from previous years, and adjustable rear sets. These would represent minimal cost.

Nice work though

Actually no, the man hours spent in getting rear shocks to work as close as possible to aftermarket would be considerable. I have analysed/ costed this at length. And geometry changes are no so quick and convenient.

[Robert Taylor]

Yeah it mentions brake lines. Section 3-6. "Front and rear hydraulic brake lines must remains stock"

I also thought about this one. But it's not the standard lines that would be the problem surely? Bike mags rave about the performance of modern brakes from their tests at tracks using stock equipment.



I hope they come stock with brake lines!! If you mean do they come with braided lines? Then No i don't think they do. Maybe a couple odd brands.



apart from the valving in the suspension, How important are the lines? have you raced on both stock and braided? Also, why the need for adjustable rear sets? are the stock one's to low and deck out?

Cheers,

-Glen

Ponder this....what bike mags say is often totally proportional to the advertising dollars spent.

[enigma51]

suspension = $3000+ ......

Thats 3 sets of race fairing (unpainted) or 2 set and change for a spray paint or maybe extra set of second hand rims.

If your a fat bastard that need stiffer suspension lay of the pies!

The rules should be to cut cost not to accommodate every one

[Skunk]

Stock bikes. Way flatter playing field for the weekend racer. If you're a tall, fat blob there's no way you're going to MotoGP! I don't care how much you 'fix' the suspension.
The class isn't aimed at the top riders who push the limits of the best equipment. This is to keep the cost of racing down; and OEM parts come fitted to every stock bike and are included in the price, strangely.

Aftermarket suspensions don't belong on every bike that goes on a race track. Save it for the serious racer - not the budget or see-if-I-like-it guys.

[vtec]

Arrgh, RT are you not getting the message you're posting 5 times as often as anyone else which gives you the impression that the arguing sides numbers are balance. And you're nitpicking at tiny parts of peoples posts which creates for lots of large annoying posts. Try to cut and paste the bits you want to discuss into the one post, and learn to use the quote function properly, it's a lot more simple than suspension dynamics.

I don't want to spend many hours and thousands of dollars setting up suspension, nor do I have the knowledge to do it competitively. I want to ride hard and fair. I don't want to have to compete with engineers and chequebooks, I want to compete with riders.

If I'm good enough at that, then it might be worth some serious sponsorship and dollars and time to step up to "modified" racing. I know I'm pretty good, but I also know I'm not worth a $40,000 per year investment... yet. I know I can't stick with the likes of Stroud and Shirriffs and smith and Lawrence, but I definitely had the potential, just not the money, the track time, or the equipment, or the experience, or the support. This is going to break down many hurdles. Good effort Shaun and Glen.

[Shaun P]

Actually no, the man hours spent in getting rear shocks to work as close as possible to aftermarket would be considerable. I have analysed/ costed this at length. And geometry changes are no so quick and convenient.

What do you propose then for a COST EFFECTIVE alternative for a production class? Please dont preach tyre wear etc this time

How do World superstock do it?

Whats a RRP and trade in price for a ttx 36 and 25mm fork kit?

Im all for the best suspension around but if everyone cant afford to have it then I guess it isnt a fair thing

[Buddha#81:Me]

.......... but allow an aftermarket muffler and fairings......... aftermarket ECU............ rework / replace fork internals.......... aftermarket rear shock .

All that moves it well away from STOCK. From the three or so threads for a Production class there are plenty of people crying out for modern, cheap bikes with a level playing field. Policing the few that would sneak the undetectable mods in would be the hardest part.

Shauns idea is cool. I think if you own the bodywork and draw your bike number from a hat before the meeting and fit your bodywork. All bikes are returned to a "base" setting after each meeting and all you do is take you bodywork home. Lets the bikes work be done with ease.

[CHOPPA]

I keep hearing everyone say they cant afford a bike to be competitive cause they cant afford the suspension etc etc

I have top of the line ohlins fork kit and shock that someone could have for 3k add that to a 2008 zx6r s/h with low ks for 11k chuck on some fairings a pipe and some rearsets and you have a competitive bike for less then the price of a new 600....

I dont have any offers flooding in so i suspect even if there was this new great production class i doubt 99% of you that are saying its affordable I wanna race etc etc will do anything about it!

Anyone keen to give me $15k and ill organise you a competitive sports production bike? If the answer is no then theres your answer for production racing imo

[Robert Taylor]

Stock bikes. Way flatter playing field for the weekend racer. If you're a tall, fat blob there's no way you're going to MotoGP! I don't care how much you 'fix' the suspension.
The class isn't aimed at the top riders who push the limits of the best equipment. This is to keep the cost of racing down; and OEM parts come fitted to every stock bike and are included in the price, strangely.

Aftermarket suspensions don't belong on every bike that goes on a race track. Save it for the serious racer - not the budget or see-if-I-like-it guys.

And that is why we ( already ) have lower cost classes.

[jrandom]

Also to include the ducati 848 could be a good idea

Nope, nice bike but it's too quick, it'd unbalance a supersport field IMHO.

Anyone keen to give me $15k and ill organise you a competitive sports production bike? If the answer is no then theres your answer for production racing imo

What you're missing is that with these rules, you know that even the fastest guys don't have qualitatively better equipment than you do. And every grand counts, too.

I note that the guys supporting the status quo are doing their darndest to inflate the apparent cost of a true production racebike and minimise the apparent cost of a bike that'd be 'competitive' under the current formula rules. Stop grasping at straws, guys, production-type rules would make the class significantly cheaper no matter how you look at it.

And not just cheaper, but easier to manage. Why should fussing and stressing over bike tuning and setup have to consume dozens of hours of a club racer's time every month?

[jrandom]

And that is why we ( already ) have lower cost classes.

Which are?

Name them.

[Robert Taylor]

Arrgh, RT are you not getting the message you're posting 5 times as often as anyone else which gives you the impression that the arguing sides numbers are balance. And you're nitpicking at tiny parts of peoples posts which creates for lots of large annoying posts. Try to cut and paste the bits you want to discuss into the one post, and learn to use the quote function properly, it's a lot more simple than suspension dynamics.

I don't want to spend many hours and thousands of dollars setting up suspension, nor do I have the knowledge to do it competitively. I want to ride hard and fair. I don't want to have to compete with engineers and chequebooks, I want to compete with riders.

If I'm good enough at that, then it might be worth some serious sponsorship and dollars and time to step up to "modified" racing. I know I'm pretty good, but I also know I'm not worth a $40,000 per year investment... yet. I know I can't stick with the likes of Stroud and Shirriffs and smith and Lawrence, but I definitely had the potential, just not the money, the track time, or the equipment, or the experience, or the support. This is going to break down many hurdles. Good effort Shaun and Glen.

Theres plenty of rhetoric about it on this forum yes but not everyone frequents forums ( thank god for that ) If I may quote the example of the recent election...........there was plenty of noise ( arguably most of it ) from ''left field'' but in spite of that the torys sailed to an impressive victory.
There are also plenty of people who consider that bike setup and constant improvement is part of road racing.
I am not against a ''sub class'' but remain steadfast about the pitfalls that many who have posted here dont fully understand or have completely ignored. It remains to be seen if Shauns brave venture ( and I mean that totally respectfully ) comes off. If it doesnt I hope all those who have lent him their unreserved support will be just as generous as when he had his near death experience. I do wish him well in spite of my publicly stated reservations.

[cowpoos]

I don't want to spend many hours and thousands of dollars setting up suspension, nor do I have the knowledge to do it competitively. I want to ride hard and fair. I don't want to have to compete with engineers and chequebooks, I want to compete with riders.

Learn dude learn...if youy are that fast you will have to anyway.
You don't get to the top of anything in life with out hard work and sacrifice..
if you put a average effort in...you get average result out..

I think the sort of thing you and glenn are pushing for is grossly unfair...you guy weight shit all of anything...stock bike DO NOT HANDLE...I say that again...DO NOT HANDLE WELL!!! for heavier people...and taller people...I don't car what crasher and scrivy say...pete is a lil fella and scrivy is hardly big...neither yourself or sketch are big either....so why penilise us?? because that is what your doing...shaun is also not a big man. I rode the 810 how he had it set up for its originoal owner...and glenn was not a big man but he loved it!...but to me..handled like a piece of shit...put the brakes on...straight into a vicious stoppie after blowing through the full stroke of the forks in a instant...turned way way too fast...and I screwed a brand new rear racetech in three sessions at a manfield test day..dispite the ohlins on the rear..why all this??? the suspension was completely wrong for my size and weight... but that same bike...before I rode it...was praised so so very very highly by White trash as being the best bike he had ever riden...doing everything he asked of it...and felt fantastic...can you imagine why that could be??? it is the lack of physical precence the dude has...[thats a nice way of saying it aye Jimmie]...

So tell me...not just you Vtec...any of you...how wrong I am???

and yes...I think Shauns concept is good...cheap racing!! he's bound to get peoples attention...and he has..and good on him!!...but it far from provides a level playing field...supersport is much closer.

But hey...we have protwins...if you want to go faster...we have supersport. and motorsport ain't cheap...deal with it!! and the people at the top have paid for a hell of alot of lunches in thier time!!

[cowpoos]

Nope, nice bike but it's too quick, it'd unbalance a supersport field IMHO.

Dan...your not qualified to have humble opinions in that area...sorry!