Sensible approach to drugs...

[Mikkel]

it may even happen in our lifetime.

http://www.reuters.com/article/lifes...4AT2O620081130

Swiss back heroin prescription for addicts

ZURICH (Reuters) - Swiss voters on Sunday backed a scheme allowing heroin addicts to obtain the drug under prescription, angering conservatives who believe crime will rise as result.

Some 68 percent voted in favor of the prescription program that was already approved by parliament, making permanent an experiment that has been in place since 1994.

I shall be very interested in seeing how this is going to work out. Although, if it's a 14 year old experiment that they now choose to make permanent I suspect it'll work out just fine. The Swiss are not exactly stupid.

Although this bit at the end is interesting:

In another referendum on Sunday, the Swiss rejected the decriminalization of cannabis, with 63 percent voting against an initiative that was supported by the Social Democrats and the Green party.

[R6_kid:Me]

Heroin used to be a prescription drug, in fact im pretty sure they even gave it to children.

[vtec]

Heroin is bad mmmkay. Seriously. Highly addictive brain destroyer.

Burns out the dopamine receptors in your brain, disabling your ability to feel natural happiness/excitement/joy, and effectively makes people husks. Stick to the track days guys. Most people have no idea of the longterm effects, which is why it should be banned.

As someone who has seen the effect of drugs on someone I cared about a lot. In the end I had to cut all ties to that person. Not happy. Sad.

The only reason why they might make it legal is so that the muppets who use don't have to commit crime to maintain their addictions. Doesn't mean that it's harmless fun at all. Removes all purpose and drive to life and generally DESTROYS people. Drugs are seriously for rubbish people who don't know how to have fun.

Other drugs in this basket are cocaine, P, crystal meth, speed, ecstacy.

I've also heard that some people are prone to getting psychotic breaks from the use of marijuana, can trigger permanent depression and bipolar issues in people. This doesn't apply to all people. Surely there's better ways to make yourself happy. People just need to look around a bit more and do THINGS that make themselves and others happy.

[Mikkel]

Heroin is bad mmmkay. Seriously. Highly addictive brain destroyer.

Yep it is bad alright, but it is also extremely difficult to kick the habit.

So if you're addicted I prefer you wouldn't have to become a criminal and destroy your life completely just because someone says heroin is bad and you can't have it even if you need it.

Not that different from alcohol to be brutally honest. Alcohol is just slightly less addictive.

We all know that just making something illegal is not going to stop people from doing it.

[vtec]

Yeah alcohol's not brilliant either. But it's not even in the ballpark compared to Heroin. It does not burn out your ability to have natural happiness like the amphetamine range of drugs do. That's why all these muso's and druggy's seem so laid back and boring. It's not cause they are "too cool man, and too rock and roll" it's just that they genuinely don't give a shit about anything cause their brains are fried. Well maybe it is a good idea to supplement the addicts supply, that way we can get rid of them faster. It would also remove funding from a lot of the crime syndicates. They would then have to get jobs mopping your floors hahaaha. It is often irreparable damage.

It also changes people in lots of other ways, with the person I knew. I noticed huge mood swings, and an inability to see any fault in themselves, and they play the victim all the time, and they feel that everyone else is fucked and they are perfect. It tore me apart. The example I'm talking about is 'P' usage in an ex-girlfriend.

[discotex]

Yeah alcohol's not brilliant either. But it's not even in the ballpark compared to Heroin. It does not burn out your ability to have natural happiness like the amphetamine range of drugs do.

Ummmm dude think you're a bit confused. Heroin is not an amphetamine. You're talking about P/meth/speed. In that respect you're pretty much on the money.

Heroin is used in hospitals alongside morphine and dozens of other strong painkillers and doesn't cause irreversible damage to either the brain or body when prescribed.

EDIT: Wonder how long this thread will take to degenerate

[vtec]

Sorry, thought heroin was amphetamine based. From what I've seen though here in Melbourne. Heroin is a scourge and the effects are WORSE than the other amphetamine based drugs I mentioned. It has definitely done the most damage out of all the drugs on these streets here in Melbourne. I'm not sure of the longterm effects of users, but you can definitely tell by just looking at them, there are permanent effects prescribed or otherwise. Longterm use of any mind altering/mood changing substance changes the way peoples minds work.

I've seen some shocking and weird shit here in Melbourne. I live pretty central (chapel st) so I see all the freaks and druggys. It's funny cause it still feels safer than Auckland. The people are less threatening here.

[Mikkel]

Yeah alcohol's not brilliant either. But it's not even in the ballpark compared to Heroin. It does not burn out your ability to have natural happiness like the amphetamine range of drugs do. That's why all these muso's and druggy's seem so laid back and boring. It's not cause they are "too cool man, and too rock and roll" it's just that they genuinely don't give a shit about anything cause their brains are fried. Well maybe it is a good idea to supplement the addicts supply, that way we can get rid of them faster.

Heroin is bad, but there are worse things out there. From what I understand heroin is not an issue here in NZ. However, it is very much a problem in Europe and the largest part of the problem (from a societal perspective) is the crimes resulting from people needing their fix.
Having seen miserable people shoot themselves up in railway underpasses with crushed ketogan pills they most likely bought at a high premium for money most likely gained through begging or crime I must say I am all for anything that'll allow an addict to retain some resemblance of human dignity.

Many of the health problems seen in users are caused by lack of sterile IV needles and contaminants from street heroin.

As for the drug itself, I am not entirely sure about the long-term effects - but AFAIK it isn't a neuro-toxin per say.

[vtec]

Neuro-toxin or not. Longterm effects are here:
http://alcoholism.about.com/cs/heroi...rion_faq05.htm

Answer: One of the most detrimental long-term effects of heroin is addiction itself.

Addiction is a chronic, relapsing disease, characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use, and by neurochemical and molecular changes in the brain. Heroin also produces profound degrees of tolerance and physical dependence, which are also powerful motivating factors for compulsive use and abuse.

As with abusers of any addictive drug, heroin abusers gradually spend more and more time and energy obtaining and using the drug. Once they are addicted, the heroin abusers' primary purpose in life becomes seeking and using drugs. The drugs literally change their brains.

Physical dependence develops with higher doses of the drug. With physical dependence, the body adapts to the presence of the drug and withdrawal symptoms occur if use is reduced abruptly. Withdrawal may occur within a few hours after the last time the drug is taken.

and
http://www.articlesbase.com/self-hel...on-143285.html

Long-term effects are far more serious and occur with repeated use. Heroin addicts suffer from collapsed veins, infections of the heart lining and valves, abscesses, cellulitis, liver disease and pulmonary complications. There is also the risk of the sometimes-fatal infection through shared syringes.

Heroin usage becomes addiction when a tolerance to the drug is built up. This means the potential addict will have to increase the dosage to experience the same "rush". Tolerance also means that the body has assimilated the drug and will suffer withdrawal without it. Now the drug is needed not only by the mind craving the high but also the body.


And this one is the best:
http://www.michaelshouse.com/heroin-...of-heroin.html
The social upheaval effect is the most damaging on others around the person. So in that respect providing prescribed Heroin might be a reasonable idea. But if that gets used to hook others, or is onsold on the blackmarket then it is increasing the destruction of life.

Also from what I've noticed druggy's are the most selfish people in existance. Generalisation I know, but that's cause it's generally the case.

Although from reading all this, I think amphetamines are worse in many ways. But heroin is worse in many ways too

[discotex]

Many of the health problems seen in users are caused by lack of sterile IV needles and contaminants from street heroin.

As for the drug itself, I am not entirely sure about the long-term effects - but AFAIK it isn't a neuro-toxin per say.

That's my understanding.

I read in one article this trial has made heroin un-cool for the Swiss and they're seeing less kids get into it which is great. Guess you take the edgy-ness away once you see a bunch of old druggies lining up at the hospital every day.

[Mikkel]

Answer: One of the most detrimental long-term effects of heroin is addiction itself.

Addiction is a chronic, relapsing disease, characterized by compulsive drug seeking and use, and by neurochemical and molecular changes in the brain. Heroin also produces profound degrees of tolerance and physical dependence, which are also powerful motivating factors for compulsive use and abuse.

Hmmm, the part I highlighted pretty much just says to me this stuff is addictive and you can build a tolerance to it. Pretty repetitive really...

So if "the most detrimental long-term effect of heroin is the addiction itself" and it is nearly impossible for a user to quit that addiction... What valid arguments could there be to criminalise the substance and make people criminals just for the sheer hell of it? By all means, control the substance - but criminalise?

Since:

As with abusers of any addictive drug, heroin abusers gradually spend more and more time and energy obtaining and using the drug. Once they are addicted, the heroin abusers' primary purpose in life becomes seeking and using drugs. The drugs literally change their brains.

Change - not damage. If you beat the addiction, what would the long-term effects be? (Provided you didn't have to throw your entire life out of the window to sustain said addiction or had to inject contaminants that ruined your body in order to get your fix...)

Physical dependence develops with higher doses of the drug...

Physical and neurological dependence - I dare say that both would be easier to fight if you were not a broken husk with a criminal label stuck onto you for good measure.

I read in one article this trial has made heroin un-cool for the Swiss and they're seeing less kids get into it which is great. Guess you take the edgy-ness away once you see a bunch of old druggies lining up at the hospital every day.

Yep - there's definitely an X-factor involved with a lot of drug use. A misunderstood perception that doing drugs is cool... and the harder the drugs the cooler you are.

[vtec]

The change that occurs to their brains is not a good thing, and in this sense I feel that qualifies as damage. If you can beat the addiction and get clean doesn't mean that the desire ever leaves. That is damage my friend. And it will be accompanied by mood swings from the permanent inner struggle. Similar to that in my alcoholic father, he beat addiction and arguably a much easier addiction to beat, but he had and still does have violent moodswings aswell.

You have a point about the broken husk thing. Although I think that it can still make people lose sight of anything that's important in their lives without it being hard to obtain, and thus will make them husks regardless of their source and what they have to do to get it.

Totally agree with the cool analysis. From where I'm sitting drugs are for losers, but people think that because it's naughty it's cool. Fools. Anything that makes people see the reality of it is a good thing (within reason).

[Mikkel]

Blimey you expanded that post significantly after posting it...

Long-term effects are far more serious and occur with repeated use. Heroin addicts suffer from collapsed veins, infections of the heart lining and valves, abscesses, cellulitis, liver disease and pulmonary complications. There is also the risk of the sometimes-fatal infection through shared syringes.

Heroin usage becomes addiction when a tolerance to the drug is built up. This means the potential addict will have to increase the dosage to experience the same "rush". Tolerance also means that the body has assimilated the drug and will suffer withdrawal without it. Now the drug is needed not only by the mind craving the high but also the body.

Most of these effects are due to contaminants found in street heroin (e.g. crushed pills molten and injected, use of already used syringes, living on the streets, etc.)

Issues with overdosing often occur due to significant variations in the strength of street heroin, this makes it hard to dose it accurately. The larger the dose required - the larger the effect of this variance.

Most, if indeed not all, of these effects would be mitigated through use of clean prescribed heroin and fresh syringes. Dosage would be a trivial matter using medicinal grade heroin.

The social upheaval effect is the most damaging on others around the person. So in that respect providing prescribed Heroin might be a reasonable idea. But if that gets used to hook others, or is onsold on the blackmarket then it is increasing the destruction of life.

If the stuff is legal and "easy to get" - then the blackmarket's reason for trading the substance has disappeared. You don't see blackmarket trade of alcohol (maybe to adolescents, since they are not allowed to buy it).
If heroin is cheap (or even free) there's no incentive to get someone else hooked on it...

Legalising heroin would be just as much in the interest of the public at large as the users themselves.

Also from what I've noticed druggy's are the most selfish people in existance. Generalisation I know, but that's cause it's generally the case.

Although from reading all this, I think amphetamines are worse in many ways. But heroin is worse in many ways too

Anyone who get stressed enough is going to loose their "politeness filter". All people are selfish when push comes to show, although the selfishness may well present itself differently depending upon what your values are.

But yes, amphetamines - and especially meth-amphetamines - are horrible drugs. I'd much rather have my kids do heroin than P(which has significant and irreversible neuro-toxic effects with even the slightest dose) - if I had to choose...

[vtec]

Hey I don't have to be polite. This is Kiwibiker. Plus I am angry (not stressed) about the behaviour of druggies I have encountered. So I'll voice it.

And I was never a selfish person a few years ago, in fact I was a super nice guy, super reliable, super doormat to my druggy ex-girlfriend. She taught me to be more selfish, because I had to be to survive around her, which is sad. And I'm a bit bitter. And yeah with her it was 'P' not heroin, but heroin is bad where it's easily obtainable. Looking back I was a naive saint.

I think nearly all of her damage was done before I met her, but she tricked me into thinking she was a good decent soul for long enough to get me to move in with my name on a lease. Then the torture began. And her odd relapse to drugs every now and again made my situation much worse. I'm physically fearful of relationships now. I'm still pained by it all. Anyway I've probably vented enough for one day, cheers for the enlightening discussion. I learned a fair bit.

[candor]

So if "the most detrimental long-term effect of heroin is the addiction itself" and it is nearly impossible for a user to quit that addiction... What valid arguments could there be to criminalise the substance .

That is not the most detrimental long term effect. The reason societies panic over injected heroin is that there is a high risk of sudden death from overdose.
I told someone this once and their non using mates who thought experimenting was amusing, a few weeks later the experimenter was dead from heroin OD! That was not a nice I told you so. It was the worst kind.

Also it actually is neurotoxic. Insofar as it does permanent damage to the brains natural endorphin system (the chemical system that keeps you a bit bouncy and feeling satisfied). The brain stops making endorphins - sometimes permanently.

The endorphin system is also affected by alcohol use and to a lesser degree cannabis. Some peoples endorphin production can recover - others never does.... giving them good cause to continue use in order just to feel normal.

Heroin prescriptions are for addicts who aren't helped by methadone (synthetic long acting "less punch" heroin that can be taken orally daily rather than needs injected every few hours - ouch) as they don't get a sufficient high... if thats what they seek - rather than just a more even keel that methadone with its less up and down blood levels offers.

This type who remain interested in lofty highs are prone to keep polydrugging atop methadone which is ultra risky for fatal overdose. Prescribed heroin is proved overseas safer than taking prescription methadone and supplementing with other street drugs to get the right kick or the alternate of street heroin (dose unknown, can get contaminated resulting in blood poisoning and expensive).

A heroin prescription would likely only be offered to those failing to reduce life chaos by just taking methadone, still chasing highs and who are not candidates for trying abstinence type recovery again due to the damage to their endorphin system being so extensive as to almost ensure relapse. As shown by long periods of miserableness when they have kicked by willpower, or by trying 12 step type programs.