Rob Gilchrist of Christchurch - you are scum

[James Deuce]

Whilst I don't agree with all their methods I'm glad there are people around with enough intestinal fortitude to continue seeking a change for the better long after most people would have given up.

Death threats, violence, door knocking at 3am (which people get REALLY pissed off when the Police do so legitimately) are unwanted criminal activities and have no place in the repertoire of those seeking an unselfish political outcome. Hitcher has already pointed out he has been subjected to this by people who claim to be activists but are in reality people too stupid to rise above playground bully tactics, too stupid to understand the difference between synthetic fur and animal product, and insist on maintaining the fantasy that the genetic material of vegetable matter some how "combines" with human DNA.

I can most definitely confirm that a cucumber has never gotten me pregnant no matter how hard I try.

Environmentalism has given yet another excuse for hard core criminal dickheads to intimidate and hurt people. There were dickheads in the anti-apartheid protest simply there to bash a copper (I was there and was bashed, at the age of 15, by one of them), just as I am sure they were present in the Anti-Vietnam war marches, and I know they were also there in the Union protests during the Price & Wage freeze.

[Hitcher]

Whilst I don't agree with all their methods I'm glad there are people around with enough intestinal fortitude to continue seeking a change for the better long after most people would have given up.

So the end justifies the means? I, for one, hope not.

[Skyryder]

The Police, I believe, have every right to monitor the activities of individuals and groups who they believe to be involved in criminal activities. Isn't that what we pay them for?

Yes they do but you use the word group with A very wide lattitude.

KB is a group and on the basis of you posts you would have no problem with the Police indiscrimantley monitoring KB members by way of a paid informant simply on the basis that some members may be involved in criminal activity or even express veiws not shared by the Government or for that matter the Police.

I do and that philosophy is the core of my objection.


Skyryder

[Cajun]

Yes they do but you use the word group with A very wide lattitude.

KB is a group and on the basis of you posts you would have no problem with the Police indiscrimantley monitoring KB members by way of a paid informant simply on the basis that some members may be involved in criminal activity or even express veiws not shared by the Government or for that matter the Police.

I do and that philosophy is the core of my objection.


Skyryder

The cops actively watch kb, as the auckland thrusday night ride can confirm. There are members who feed information to cops, about things that happen or been posted on site.

[imdying]

As pointed out by others, this is a bad statement to make. (name removed) is in fact not a Nazi, he is a reinactor. He has also been notified of this statement.

As has Mr Gilchrist. I should hope you would see fit to cease any improper personal comments at this time.

Walks like a duck, talks like a duck... well, you know the rest

I'm not actually sure how being a wannabe nazi is better than being a 'real' nazi though...

[Skyryder]

My god .... what ever happened to freedom of speech? freedom of protest?
Just another link in becoming a comunist country ie: we are told what to do!

Thats very disturbing behaviour on the coppers part, paying an informant!

The likes of Greenpeace, Climate Change activists, and Animal rights protesters are peacefull protesters, making a point about Government cover ups. They protest in such a way to alert media to let all NZers know whats happening, otherwise we all would be oblivious as to what is actually happeneing.

Terriost threat?? What a frekin joke!

I fully support these groups and they changes they try to bring to make this world a better place.

As for the Iranian side of things, thats dodgy territory.

More tax dollar wastage!

Rumour is that the SNAILS have regrouped (GROUP SEX??) in order to save the Mokinui on the west coast.



Skyryder

[trustme]

How do you differentiate between the harmless crackpot, renta crowd & the dangerous lunatic fringe unless you gather information , by necessity this must be covert, the lunatic few are hardly going to be upfront & honest if plod knocks on the door & asks for a quiet chat.
9/11 , the Bali bombings, Spain & the goings on in UK have caused a huge shift in attitude by the authoities to extremist groups [ legal or not ]. No longer are the protestors regarded as quaint kind of cute cranks, they pose a threat until proven otherwise & they can expect some form of scrutiny, nobody in authority wants another 9/11 or Bali on their watch, & the biggest threat is coming from within. Plod is not after renta crowd but the lunatic few who frequent the fringes of such organisations

[Hitcher]

KB is a group and on the basis of you posts you would have no problem with the Police indiscrimantley monitoring KB members by way of a paid informant simply on the basis that some members may be involved in criminal activity or even express veiws not shared by the Government or for that matter the Police.

Goodness me. There is a huge difference between suppressing free speech and monitoring criminal activity.

I doubt that Police monitoring of Kiwi Biker would reveal much useful intelligence.

[imdying]

How do you differentiate between the harmless crackpot, renta crowd & the dangerous lunatic fringe unless you gather information

That's the problem in'it... if the groups are harmless enough, seems reasonable that they'll lost interest in them to a greater or lesser extent soon enough.

Still, nobody likes to be spied upon, given that, what's the alternative?

[James Deuce]

I doubt that Police monitoring of Kiwi Biker would reveal much useful intelligence.

Emphasis on the operand?

[imdying]

I doubt that Police monitoring of Kiwi Biker would reveal much useful intelligence.

Not so! Speed is the biggest evil facing New Zealand today, KB seems like a good place to start looking for it

[Skyryder]

How do you differentiate between the harmless crackpot, renta crowd & the dangerous lunatic fringe unless you gather information , by necessity this must be covert, the lunatic few are hardly going to be upfront & honest if plod knocks on the door & asks for a quiet chat.
9/11 , the Bali bombings, Spain & the goings on in UK have caused a huge shift in attitude by the authoities to extremist groups [ legal or not ]. No longer are the protestors regarded as quaint kind of cute cranks, they pose a threat until proven otherwise & they can expect some form of scrutiny, nobody in authority wants another 9/11 or Bali on their watch, & the biggest threat is coming from within. Plod is not after renta crowd but the lunatic few who frequent the fringes of such organisations

This is the arguement for a Police State and a Police State is where its lawfull citizens are monitored by the Government. Once you begin to advocate that it is necessary to monitor an entire orgaisation or group then those who are innocent of unlawfull activity have their rights violated, and by doing so the state orgaisation be it police or security forces have violated the rights that the Government have sworn to uphold. Once this becomes the excepted practice by the citzenry, it is only a matter of time before this practice becomes lawfull and as such the purpose of government to uphold the freedoms of western traditions become invalid.


Such is the path that you advocate

Skyryder

[The Lone Rider]

I doubt that Police monitoring of Kiwi Biker would reveal much intelligence.

What I thought you said at first glance with these crusty dried eyes

[Skyryder]

Goodness me. There is a huge difference between suppressing free speech and monitoring criminal activity.

Yes but's it's not free speech that is under discussion but freedom of association and with it the right to privacy in the bedroom.



Skyryder

[Ixion]

Goodness me. There is a huge difference between suppressing free speech and monitoring criminal activity.

I doubt that Police monitoring of Kiwi Biker would reveal much useful intelligence.

That is a false argument. No-one objects to the Police monitoring criminal activity. But that is not what they a re doing. They are monitoring the activities of people, prima faciae law abiding ones, on the grounds that such monitoring MIGHT disclose indications (not even evidence) of some (unidentified) criminal activity.

On exactly the same basis , will you then support the Police carrying out searches of peoples' homes (starting with yours) on the basis that doing so MIGHT disclose indications (not even evidence) of some (unidentified) criminal activity.

Much as I personally dislike the groups concerned ('nutters' is a charitable description of Greenpeace) it is a fundamental requirement of the Rule of Law that the State has no business spying on people until they have evidence of (at least) probably wrongdoing. Spying to obtain that evidence is a logical (and self serving) fallacy.

If the Police were able to establish that they only spied on those with an established criminal record, I would view matters differently. The previous offence gives reasonable grounds to suppose there might be a repetition. But I am not aware that this is the case.