Bike vs bike crashes - why so many?

[imdying]

My idea is that if a rider's already overcooked it, they're probably not capable of doing anything except running wider. So I'm going inside.

Make sense?

Right up to the point where you clean up his mate who's not too far back, and still on the correct line.

[Nasty]

Like I said earlier, it's more like .5 seconds. Think about it. Visualise it. In full-focus time-dilated mode, that's an eternity.



Maybe. Maybe not. As you say, it was a long time ago. I wouldn't want to draw any fatalistic conclusions from the memory of it.



Mm, indeed, and now we get to the nub of the matter - the rider's reaction.

If you genuinely don't think you have a hope of handling such situations, then don't ride on the road. Nobody will blame you for that.

But, as Ixion and others have said, this has in fact happened many a time, and been dealt with without crashes. And the simple physics of these situations do not always imply that bikes have to hit each other.

Pity you never bothered to ask questions .. you might have learnt something ... real life vs you .. I take real life .. and yes my sister was on the back .. and did know ..and saw it all ... and thirteen years later I got my license - so I dont' have a problem being on the road - that particular road I do ... many many people have died on it, and not only on bikes.

I think that you have not been in this situation ... I agree that it doesn't always have to lead to a head on ... but also I think you are too closed-minded to listen to anyone else ... hence quoting and replying and putting down anyone else. Enough said really.

[vifferman]

Assuming that faced with a bike-to-bike head-on crash, the other person is going to go "OMIGOD! WTF!" and continue on without swerving left again, may be fairly reasonable. But (however!) if you have decided that in that situation you are going to dive right, and 'programmed' yourself to do so, is that going to mean that you are likely to sometimes/often/mostly choose the worst option? Wottif?
Wottif the other person isn't totally target fixated or frozen in fear and dives left (straight at you) not expecting you to be going right?
Wottif you successfully avoid them by diving right, but now you're on the wrong side of the road, with their following traffic barrelling towards you at 200km/h+?

Is it possible to practise (mentally and/or physically) choosing and taking the best option of several when faced with this sort of thing?

I understand what you're getting at, but I wonder at the wisdom of (a) deciding in advance what you're going to do, and (b) choosing a course of action that goes against that most basic of governing rules, "Keep left cunts!" (as Finn would have it). Yes, the fact that both of you are already NOT left means the situation's already not normal, but I am concerned at advocation of something that in some circumstances could make things more worserer.

[jrandom]

I agree that it doesn't always have to lead to a head on ...

Well then, I'm glad we agree!

also I think you are too closed-minded to listen to anyone else ... hence quoting and replying and putting down anyone else.

Thank you for your input.

[merv]

I told you on the other thread its that vanishing point problem. All the heroes go splat at that point.

[vifferman]

its also a fact that bikes(and cruiser prolly more so) are NOT manouverable at speed....

Seriously?
So... what about all those motorcycle races? Are those riders not "manouevering at speed"?

you guys are SERIOUSLY making me reconsider getting a another bike(40 plus RR)

Make no mistake - motorcyling is more dangerous than driving a car. Don't enter (or re-enter) into it lightly.

[Squiggles]

I understand what you're getting at, but I wonder at the wisdom of (a) deciding in advance what you're going to do, and (b) choosing a course of action that goes against that most basic of governing rules, "Keep left cunts!" (as Finn would have it). Yes, the fact that both of you are already NOT left means the situation's already not normal, but I am concerned at advocation of something that in some circumstances could make things more worserer.

As you've pointed out, if the situation arises, its going to be mostly down to luck. The question is why? Why are riders appearing on the wrong side of the road, and what can we do about it... As sick as it may be, i can hear some calling for central median barriers. (And there is logic to those calls)

[BMWST?]

Seriously?
So... what about all those motorcycle races? Are those riders not "manouevering at speed"?

Make no mistake - motorcyling is more dangerous than driving a car. Don't enter (or re-enter) into it lightly.

the gyro forces at high speeds make motorcycles much less manouverable at "high speeds".A car can make much more drastic change of direction at say 110 or 120 than a bike,unless its a suv of course,they will rollover

[Ixion]

the gyro forces at high speeds make motorcycles much less manouverable at "high speeds".A car can make much more drastic change of direction at say 110 or 120 than a bike,unless its a suv of course,they will rollover

I am strongly tempted to a bit of micheal extraction, but as this is a serious topic , I will, by a mighty and valiant effort, restrict myself simply to saying that you are seriously mistaken. Unless by 'drastic change of direction' you mean something like a handbrake turn.

[R6_kid:Me]

visualisation before the fact is a tool that might save their arses.

Agreed on that point, in the same way that 'you always do what you've always done'.

[discotex]

I'm currently around 50/50 cars vs bikes for the "evasive action taken to avoid someone in my lane" scenario (not including a wheel just over the line).

Pretty shocking odds given the number of bikes on the road vs cars.

I've always taken to assuming a bike is coming at speed when evaluating if I can pass a cage on a short straight. More often than not I'd appear to be slightly over cautious but it's probably saved half a dozen near misses had I pulled out.

I believe if you late apex you'll have a better chance of seeing what's going on and hopefully be in the wrong part of the road to get hit in the first place (for both overtaking and squid scenarios).

[shafty]

...and great point Ixion, about visualising a vehicle appearing straight in front of you - NOT what you would do, but just so you recognise the situation quicker.

On a Rider Training course I went on, we were asked the same question - what would we do if confronted by a vehicle coming head on. It created some interesting discussion. Evidentally, the most common reaction of the oncoming (ie offending) driver, is to brake hard as soon as they realise where they are/the situation they are in. The second most common reaction is to violently pull their vehicle back in to their lane.

Depends I guess at what point they "realise" whats going on. I'm thinking someone dropping their (15th) beer can and reaching for it - they may "clean you up" before realising they are on the wrong side of the road. Don't even think about methamphetamine etc etc

And covering 56 metres a second at 200 km/hr combined speed, how many seconds do you give them, - even if you had any to spare?

The other thing I learn't at said course, was the "practised reaction" is the most likely one you will use in the case of the manure hitting the rotating cooling device.

For example, if you practise counter steering regularly, you will more than likely countersteer around an obstacle without the need to consciously think it through. That could just save your bacon when the time comes.

A good case for practising full on emergency stops regularly, so some of the panic is eliminated. As an aside, the ABS on the Pan Euro definitely saved my life on it's maiden voyage when a sub-life drove his car out of the forest into my path in the torrential rain - while staring me in the face laughing.

I'll put my hand up to riding like a Pussy. Being a wuss has helped me to still be alive after 34 years riding and appreciating every ride I return from as a successful one.

I've cranked the Orient Express up to 200 on a very quiet straight road with good visibility, but realistically at that speed, if a dog ran out, my reactions may not be up to scratch.


Once again Jrandom - good topic. Ride SAFE Folks.

Shafty

[James Deuce]

Ride SAFE Folks.

That's technically impossible and a passive approach to riding. You need to be in charge and empowered with as much skill and practice as you can be.

There's no such things as safe, never assume that you are and never use that mantra to prop up your ego.

You aren't safe on a bike. It's one of the reasons why I ride.

[carbonhed]

... Evidentally, the most common reaction of the oncoming (ie offending) driver, is to brake hard as soon as they realise where they are/the situation they are in. The second most common reaction is to violently pull their vehicle back in to their lane.

From my experience racing road cycles over places like the Akatarawa's that reaction occurs for both parties involved. When suddenly confronted with a car on your side of the road you either steered round it and survived or you braked and got hurt... trouble is that first instinctive panic reaction is pretty much hardwired to the individual and would be a bastard to change.

So are you a steerer or a braker?

[Ixion]

This is the classic "cager riding a bike" mistake. Grab the brakes, now you can't dodge, so all you can do is wait for the bang. People used to driving cars do it, because in a car you can't manoeuvre as quickly as on a bike, so you don't have any other choice.

Bike, dodge. (Almost) anything is better than a head on.