URGENT Advice req re smoking at work.

[cowboyz]

This has just been released.


[B]Rest and meal breaks
www.ers.govt.nz/relationships/breaks.html

that is all good but doesnt come into effect till 1 april. 2 weeks away.

Great, that's what I hoped!
Now your contact (I hope you have a copy). Let me know.
Look through for smoking during working hours clause, also if there is a clause that reads something like the following.



This is a hard one to argue when it comes to fair and reasonable instruction, must one understand the inclusion and intent of this in any contract. It cannot be used as a blanket clause in this manner.
The intent of the ERA, it's flavour and fairness to all parties must firstly be applied, to use this as a blanket fix all, or perhaps reasoning to prevent a smoke whilst mowing lawns on a tractor... mmm I would say it would not even last an hour in front of an adjudicator!

I think there has already been a test case, very close to this one, not same but nearly, I haven't found it yet.

There is not but there is a clause that says I will abide by club policies and they have the right to change to policies at will.

suss out your work mates, who cares who doesnt. good luck.

Unfortunately, I am the only one who smokes. there are 3 of us and 1 of the others assaulted me (which started all this and the manager is sticking up for him including denying the assualt and taking no action against him after an "internal"investigation. The other guy is so far up the others arse that I cant figure out where one ends and the other starts.

as swoop has already mentioned, rest breaks are now law.
10 min break every 2 hours, and a minimum 30 min break every 4 hours

The change to non-smoking policy, is a policy change, not a unilateral contract change, unless smoking is specifically mentioned in your contract.

Start claiming your rights to breaks.

Go through the 7 "rules" and see if they relate directly to clauses in your contract, if they do, then you have recourse, and this is negotiable and cannot be unilateral.

TA.

As above, that law doesnt come in for 2 weeks. And there is a clause in my contract that says they can set policy whenever they want.

Oh, and rest assured, I am looking for another job. Its not easy though.

[Max Preload]

Unless it is something that is demanded by law. If a contract is silent on a subject that is covered by legislation then the legislation is still binding whether or not the contract mentions it.

And the policy that the OP's employer is attempting to implement is not demanded by law.

Mate like I said before this case is SO SIMPLE it's a no brainer and if you really can't see through it I don't know what else to say.

I see. So you're actually only trying to simplify a complex issue, not actually think about and address all aspects of the situation. Righto!

You're comparing the basic necessities like drink and toilet breaks to smoking. You must be kidding yourself.

I think it is you who is kidding himself. It's pretty evident from the addiction aspect that, to a smoker, nicotine is a neccessity.

Yes I haven't reasoned things out because I think most people would be able to work simple things out themselves but you have drawn a few conclusions very quickly. How do you know it doesn't affect his performance??

How do you know it does? Give us an example of how it would impede his work performance in this vocation. It isn't mind altering like alcohol or dope so he isn't going to be mentally or physically impaired. Either his performance in his job is adequate or it is not and since there has been no mention of any performance concerns raised which are in any way attributable to smoking, we can safely assume his smoking does not impact on his performance. It seems you're seeing things that simply are not there for the sake of your purely speculative argument.

When I say most people would be able to work simple reasons out themselves, here's one for you to think about:

Is it safe to smoke a cigarette while operating a machine (mower) which has petrol and if he accidentally drops it in the wrong place, a few small things can go wrong.

Yes, quite safe. Do you actually realise how hard petrol is to ignite? And considering the proximity of mower petrol tanks to the plug lead which can jump to adjacent metal parts providing a spark of sufficient temperature to actually ignite petrol, the risk posed by someone smoking in such a well ventilated environment as a mower is commonly used is considerably lower risk. However, I'm sure he doesn't spend all day, every day, around flammable liquids or vapours so your point is... well, once again, speculative at best.

And there's probably some other good reasons why his employer is implementing it, which I don't have time to get into.

Translation: you're weak and not prepared to stand up for yourself and your rights so you do whatever you're told regardless. You have my sympathy. It's terrible to live on your knees.

Like I said before it's a pretty simple case and any sensible employee will take measures (irrespective of how addicted you are to smoking - been there done that) to follow a simple guideline.

It's not a simple case at all, unless perhaps you are yourself somewhat simple and can only see one small PoV.

It would be silly for anyone to argue endlessly and run the risk of losing your job. I am happy I have a job in this current economic situation.

Well, if you feel the need to suck up to tyrants to allay your own personal security fears, feel free to do so at your own peril. Don't expect everyone else to blindly follow your "Yes, Sir" attitude though.

[3umph]

I for one would not hire another smoker... the last one I hired took advantage of a lot of my time rolling ciggs and smoking them...

not while I was around as he only did that in his breaks which I did not have a problem with, but as soon as I had to shoot out then he would instantly roll up and head out for a smoke... and that could be many times a day... wasting my time... it does not sound like much time but add it up over a week and that's quite a bit of time and money wasted on the employers side...

I also had a no smoking in my vehicle and when out onsite working but that was not adhered to as I got quite a bit of feedback from customers regarding it...

As an employer you want what you do portrayed by your employees as good as you can and having a smoke hanging out of ones mouth is not a good look especially for being in a public place... also the non smoking patrons/customers should not have to put up with it happening around them either...
As an employer what the difference between someone having a smoke or a non smoker having a coffee when they feel like it out of the normal breaks???

I'm not anti smoking as I don't really give a shit if you want to ruin your health and over the years had heaps of secondary smoke in my lungs... my wife's a smoker so I have to put up with it but she respects me and others when it come to her smoking...

If there are other problems at your work as you say then I suggest another job would be on the cards... and if it is that bad you may need to get advice about a personal grievance against your employer (dam did I say that)...

I can see why your employer does not want you to smoke during work hours but I think that is only a small part of your problem at your workplace

[cowboyz]

I have only been greenkeeping for 3-4 years. Before that I was sharemilking a dairy herd. I hired this non-smoker once and he was useless. Couldnt get the hang of anything, always late, got tired easily, never had a spare smoke in his pocket when I run out............

Think about it.

As another side point. Even in all the arguments and shitfighting that has been going on my empolyers and their lawyer have spouted on about how I am a skilled valued member of the staff. If his mate, (my boss) hadnt hit me then all this wouldnt have be an issue cause this is a direct result of that. It even says so at the top of the memo.

[Nasty]

I have only been greenkeeping for 3-4 years. Before that I was sharemilking a dairy herd. I hired this non-smoker once and he was useless. Couldnt get the hang of anything, always late, got tired easily, never had a spare smoke in his pocket when I run out............

Think about it.

As another side point. Even in all the arguments and shitfighting that has been going on my empolyers and their lawyer have spouted on about how I am a skilled valued member of the staff. If his mate, (my boss) hadnt hit me then all this wouldnt have be an issue cause this is a direct result of that. It even says so at the top of the memo.

So how long they been trying to get rid of you ... cos that is what it sounds like. If that is the case, then employment law should stand on your side - e.g. constructed dismissal - personal grievance .. whatever you like to call it.

[Max Preload]

If his mate, (my boss) hadnt hit me then all this wouldnt have be an issue cause this is a direct result of that. It even says so at the top of the memo.

Say what now?

[mynameis]

Haha you've really confirmed to me and the participants of this thread what I had been thinking. I've come across a few Cowboys who think they know it all but in all reality they know next to nothing about Employment Law/HR issues.

I see. So you're actually only trying to simplify a complex issue, not actually think about and address all aspects of the situation. Righto!

The reason why I am trying to simplify it for him is because he is a Green Keeper not an HR person and most people tend to go all complex in situations like this and their analysis most times aren't accurate and irrelevant, like we are seeing right now.

I think it is you who is kidding himself. It's pretty evident from the addiction aspect that, to a smoker, nicotine is a neccessity.

Employers aren't there to provide for someone's nicotine addiction, again it's simple you're getting paid to work not smoke cigarettes.

How do you know it does? Give us an example of how it would impede his work performance in this vocation. It isn't mind altering like alcohol or dope so he isn't going to be mentally or physically impaired. Either his performance in his job is adequate or it is not and since there has been no mention of any performance concerns raised which are in any way attributable to smoking, we can safely assume his smoking does not impact on his performance. It seems you're seeing things that simply are not there for the sake of your purely speculative argument.

I thought most intelligent people would be able to figure this out but for your sake I will give you a simple obvious/no brainer example. He is a Green Keeper at a Golf Course, a practical labour job which requires the use of both his hands, mow the green, operate machinery ect..ect..

If he smokes 2 cigarettes an hour, 5 mins each then he has wasted 10 mins per hour so in an 8 hour day that equates to 1 hour 20 mins of employers time during which he is getting paid and is suppose to be working not smoking.

If A doesn't stack up you don't safely assume B is right, so it's not a speculative argument but assuming smoking doesn't affect his work is.

Yes, quite safe. Do you actually realise how hard petrol is to ignite? And considering the proximity of mower petrol tanks to the plug lead which can jump to adjacent metal parts providing a spark of sufficient temperature to actually ignite petrol, the risk posed by someone smoking in such a well ventilated environment as a mower is commonly used is considerably lower risk. However, I'm sure he doesn't spend all day, every day, around flammable liquids or vapours so your point is... well, once again, speculative at best.

Haha again very laughable mate if you say it is quite safe to smoke cigarettes and operate machinery. Certainly isn't a common practise in this and most developed countries for obvious reasons but some people can and will act smart and try to prove otherwise.

Translation: you're weak and not prepared to stand up for yourself and your rights so you do whatever you're told regardless. You have my sympathy. It's terrible to live on your knees.

Wrong translation again it's not your right to smoke at work during working hours. Not sure what world you're still in. But what I can say is if you have that silly attitude at work (in his case) you will get shot down very quickly and easily. If anything he'll shoot himself in the foot if he listens to your advice.

It's not a simple case at all, unless perhaps you are yourself somewhat simple and can only see one small PoV.

It really is as simple as no smoking during working hours mate, but some people won't get it.

Well, if you feel the need to suck up to tyrants to allay your own personal security fears, feel free to do so at your own peril. Don't expect everyone else to blindly follow your "Yes, Sir" attitude though.

A filthy, silly, rebellious and stupid attitude to simple things doesn't take you far, long term. If someone carries on they'll soon find themselves saying "The world isn't fair, everyone's against me". And referring to your employer as Tyrants...well need I say more.

So to sum things up you're saying it perfectly fine for him to smoke at work during working hours and that his Employers (Golf Club's) employment lawyer who they have engaged is wrong and so are the rest of the posters on this thread.

Peace, Bless I take my hat off at your intelligence and advice.

[Skyryder]

I think you need to consult and employment lawyer. Don't go with a consultant.

They may be cheaper but in the long run it may cost you more. emplyment policy can not be made by your immediate boss. it must come from the organisation. Basicly if there are no minutes on this you may be able to go for a PG. If you can make a connection with the alleged assault and the so called policy change you may be able to get something from this.

Bottomline you need to figure out if you still want to keep working for this company or not.

Your solicitor will be able to estabilsh if the police carried out a proper investigation of your alledged assault.

Keep ya mouth shut and go see a solicitor or some free legal help.


Skyryder

[cowboyz]

Bottomline you need to figure out if you still want to keep working for this company or not.
Skyryder

I think my wife/kids/mortgage/bank have decided for me that I am to keep working until I get another job.

I am in limbo at the moment, doing nothing.

Was avoiding people at 3.55pm this arvo cause I hadnt had a break or a smoke since 1 and was feeling a little twitchy. In 2 weeks I WILL be stopping at 3 for a smoke.

[cowboyz]

I thought most intelligent people would be able to figure this out but for your sake I will give you a simple obvious/no brainer example. He is a Green Keeper at a Golf Course, a practical labour job which requires the use of both his hands, mow the green, operate machinery ect..ect..

If he smokes 2 cigarettes an hour, 5 mins each then he has wasted 10 mins per hour so in an 8 hour day that equates to 1 hour 20 mins of employers time during which he is getting paid and is suppose to be working not smoking.

actually. you have much more control over the mowers if you drive with one hand. I am not taking the piss either. Everyone drives one handed. Funny enough, even though I am right handed I drive left handed. The reason for this is that it is much much easier to drive in a striaght line if you are driving one handed. So y right hand doesnt do fuckall all day anyhow.

[The Pastor]

wah wah wah your a dirty smoker.

Give me a break, the man can smoke if he wants to, take your anti smoking bullshit and piss off.


In your situation I dont think they are allowed to ban your smoking - but they have. I would not smoke, as you dont want to get fired. Abide by the new policy and look for a new job.

[Scouse]

to make it clear, the course is not smoke free. Just the empolyees, and being the only smoker on staff means just me.

There is a HUGE backstory that goes with this that I wont go into but rest assured that this rule is just to pick on me as a backlash for past events.

No it is not a condition of employment that I dont smoke. I smoked before I started working there and have been working there for over 3 years.

I got a notice today that says lots of stuff but it is just this point that has the biggest effect on me that I want a way out of striaght away.

4. Smoking. No smoking during paid working hours. Smoking is permitted during your breaks only.

These rules are not optional but will be adhered to by all staff.

There are 7 rules all together, the others I can argue in time. Working without smoking gets me wound up pretty quick though.

This notice was given to me this morning.

I see nothing wrong with these rules. I usually don't take smokers on when I hire new staff as most take the piss by having ciggie breaks outside there normal rostered tea and meal breaks. This causes problems with non smoking staff as the see the smokers having extra un-rostered breaks.

[SixPackBack]

Fuck my heart bleeds custard for you bro'...after burying two friends, seeing my dad have a heart attack ALL from smoking I kinda think your work place is doing you a HUGE favour. Unfortunately your addiction to the evil weed is clouding your judgement so pervasively you fail to see what a golden opportunity hey have presented you.....you know like:

• Not dying at a young age.[that's a good one]
• Keeping your looks. [smoking and crack addiction share a similar effect on a persons attractiveness]
• Getting and keeping a decent erection. [even young ex smokers like myself know the effects!]
• Not smelling like the mouth of a camel.
• Saving a shit load of money.

I could go on but you get the message......lose the hate, realise your employer is giving you a golden opportunity and wisen up-get rid of the habit

[cowboyz]

Fuck my heart bleeds custard for you bro'...after burying two friends, seeing my dad have a heart attack ALL from smoking I kinda think your work place is doing you a HUGE favour. Unfortunately your addiction to the evil weed is clouding your judgement so pervasively you fail to see what a golden opportunity hey have presented you.....you know like:

• Not dying at a young age.[that's a good one]too late for that!
• Keeping your looks. [smoking and crack addiction share a similar effect on a persons attractiveness]and that
• Getting and keeping a decent erection. [even young ex smokers like myself know the effects!]hold on, just got to consult my wife, she is a woman so complains about alot but dont recall that falling into the arguments........
• Not smelling like the mouth of a camel.camels dont smell that bad.
• Saving a shit load of money.
  I dont think it would save me any money. I would just spend it on other shit like porn and hookers. In fact, smoking is helping me keep my marriage together cause my wife is not very happy about me hiring hookers.

I could go on but you get the message......lose the hate, realise your employer is giving you a golden opportunity and wisen up-get rid of the habit

I have lost a few friends to bikes on the road. Sell your bike now to save heartache for your friends.

[piston broke]

being a smoker of 30yrs,and havin one now as i type,i say get over it.
if you can't do 2-3hrs without a smoke, you're a winna.
p.s i'm damn near a chain smoker,but if my livelyhood depends on it,and it has,a few hrs is fuk all.
get over it.it is what it is.And it won't do you any harm.
don't give them any excuse to lay you off before you are ready to go.
handle the jandle.