PT racers or thinking about racing PT

[Ivan]

Ok heres me a budget racer and I have no problems with the current rules so I said no to changing my bike from these rules. I enjoy the fact of learning how to make a "Big" bike go faster in the corners etc so that when I do go up to a 'BIG" bike I will be able to transfer some of my existing knowledge over not learn it when I step up.

The current rules I think are great no need to Dumb the class down us young riders need to learn these bike setup skills at some point

[svr]

OK, put it away chaps.
The discussion was whether or not PTs require expensive modification on the grounds of safety, which really hasn't been answered at all (that was your homework, RT - disappointing)
I've ridden, trackdayed & raced my sv (and won club races) in various states of modification. I also raced it `bog' standard not long after I bought it, and what struck me was how accessible the (admittedly low) limits of the bike were and how `uncrashable' it felt (relatively speaking).
In terms of safety-improving modifications I'd say the following should be allowed:
1. tyres. Actually the standard me-z4's were `safe' at their limit but i won't go there...
2. steering damper - mainly for street circuits and pukekohe, or once the forks are firmed up...
3. Ground clearance improvements (footpegs, muffler, or shorter dog-bones, or longer shock?)
4. Stiffer fork springs with optional oil / levels. The standard forks bottom on the brakes and lock the tyre in a straight line.

That would pretty much do it for me. The standard brakes aren't `dangerous' at all, and the standard shock doesn't wind up and spit you off or anything ridiculous. Andrew Bretherton could ride at consistently `safe' 1.15 m pace at Manfield on a standard sv back in '99 so I don't really see what the big problem is? Someone please enlighten me. I've had three near-highsides on my bike - two were caused by excessive engine braking and one by the rear shock settings (non-standard)
(Nb/ I haven't ridden an er-6 so cannot comment. )

[svr]

The current rules I think are great no need to Dumb the class down us young riders need to learn these bike setup skills at some point

NZs best racers learnt on production bikes where they learnt at a young age how to ride a bike at its limit. They learnt setup later.

[codgyoleracer]

OK, put it away chaps.
The discussion was whether or not PTs require expensive modification on the grounds of safety, which really hasn't been answered at all (that was your homework, RT - disappointing)
I've ridden, trackdayed & raced my sv (and won club races) in various states of modification. I also raced it `bog' standard not long after I bought it, and what struck me was how accessible the (admittedly low) limits of the bike were and how `uncrashable' it felt (relatively speaking).
In terms of safety-improving modifications I'd say the following should be allowed:
1. tyres. Actually the standard me-z4's were `safe' at their limit but i won't go there...
2. steering damper - mainly for street circuits and pukekohe, or once the forks are firmed up...
3. Ground clearance improvements (footpegs, muffler, or shorter dog-bones, or longer shock?)
4. Stiffer fork springs with optional oil / levels. The standard forks bottom on the brakes and lock the tyre in a straight line.

That would pretty much do it for me. The standard brakes aren't `dangerous' at all, and the standard shock doesn't wind up and spit you off or anything ridiculous. Andrew Bretherton could ride at consistently `safe' 1.15 m pace at Manfield on a standard sv back in '99 so I don't really see what the big problem is? Someone please enlighten me. I've had three near-highsides on my bike - two were caused by excessive engine braking and one by the rear shock settings (non-standard)
(Nb/ I haven't ridden an er-6 so cannot comment. )

They missed the boat on creating a "street-stock" type "mid class" like this upon the original concept. (of course this assumes that this is what they (MNZ) wanted in the first place ?). IMO A bike in the above form can be enjoyably raced (albiet at a slower outright pace than a well set up unit with all the good gear). Some of the best/most fun racing i have done has been on buckets - which are gutless poor handling devices at best (mostly , no offence bucket guys !) - however it has indeed been some of the closest & most fun times i have had on a motorbike.
With the adoption of a true treaded road sports tyre (all the major brand make them), this will negate the need for wets, wheels , discs etc etc the costs would / could indeed be reduced substantially. A consideration for no spare bikes & one engine only per race meeting mite also be worth considering "if" a class like this was to be considered.
My gut feeling is that this would indeed get more bums on seats & probably attract the right type of bums also I.E new blood, young blood. Old & experienced campaigners tend to prefer a more up-spec class than this & would tend to stay away - as they do in 150ss.

On the flip side, the current pro-twin class is not excessivly expensive & as the boys down south showed - you can compete on a much lower budget with some ingenuity & riding skills.

It pretty much comes back to "what did the author of the class originally target the Pro-Twins at" - He/she/they , may well be sitting back & thinking they got it bang on correct as it is.

[Rob Taylor]

This thread is not really off topic.The topic is about trying to make a class more affordable.Pt at the moment allows 4 valve 650cc. F3 allows the same & also 2 valve 750.,..so why not allow the 2 valve 750 into pt...Come on guys its all about getting motorcycle racing more affordable for Joe average..Frosty is on the right track...Remember im a sponsor not a rider.The cheaper the class the more bikes we can sponsor,non Jap that is for us !!!!I feel that minor suspension modes must be allowed to make certain bikes safe or at the least make bike A as safe as bike B. Yes its bloody hard to police as is F2 & F3 ,IE performance engine mods....Lets all put our heads together on this rather than knocking heads

[codgyoleracer]

This thread is not really off topic.The topic is about trying to make a class more affordable.Pt at the moment allows 4 valve 650cc. F3 allows the same & also 2 valve 750.,..so why not allow the 2 valve 750 into pt...Come on guys its all about getting motorcycle racing more affordable for Joe average..Frosty is on the right track...Remember im a sponsor not a rider.The cheaper the class the more bikes we can sponsor,non Jap that is for us !!!!I feel that minor suspension modes must be allowed to make certain bikes safe or at the least make bike A as safe as bike B. Yes its bloody hard to police as is F2 & F3 ,IE performance engine mods....Lets all put our heads together on this rather than knocking heads

Just put your idea forward to MNZ for consideration at the AGM Rob - thats the way to find out. (although a stock 750ss/696m would likely get spanked).
Glen

[slowpoke]

Just out of curiousity: when was the last time a bike was thoroughly tech inspected via a full or partial strip down?

It seems to me that you could basically do what you like anyway, as long as things looked standard externally and you weren't too stupid about exploiting an advantage........ (rushes off to wash mouth out....)

[FROSTY:Me]

Just put your idea forward to MNZ for consideration at the AGM Rob - thats the way to find out. (although a stock 750ss/696m would likely get spanked).
Glen

heheehe Glen-- power wise yes but the sneaky bugger knows the factory suspenders on the ducks are heaps better than on er/sv/gt650's

Im actually looking at it from the point of view of a potential CLASS sponsor.
I can't take the time out myself to race so I was looking for a class to subsidise.

[FROSTY:Me]

Just out of curiousity: when was the last time a bike was thoroughly tech inspected via a full or partial strip down?

It seems to me that you could basically do what you like anyway, as long as things looked standard externally and you weren't too stupid about exploiting an advantage........ (rushes off to wash mouth out....)

ER actually dude thats one of the points I was making. Limit the HP to 75 to stop hot cams etc. Well actually NO it wont stop em but itll make em pointless.

[svr]

ER actually dude thats one of the points I was making. Limit the HP to 75 to stop hot cams etc. Well actually NO it wont stop em but itll make em pointless.

75 is a big number! If any pt out there was making 75 it should be pulled down fer sure. It wouldn't like pump gas for a start.
70 sounds about right for a good one.

[t3mp0r4ry nzr]

heheehe Glen-- power wise yes but the sneaky bugger knows the factory suspenders on the ducks are heaps better than on er/sv/gt650's

Im actually looking at it from the point of view of a potential CLASS sponsor.
I can't take the time out myself to race so I was looking for a class to subsidise.

With respect FROSTY, how would a change in class rulings impact on your stake as an investor in the class?

[slowpoke]

ER actually dude thats one of the points I was making. Limit the HP to 75 to stop hot cams etc. Well actually NO it wont stop em but itll make em pointless.

As simple as it sounds it's a logistical nightmare:
Do MNZ buy a dyno and have to transport it all over the country? Who pays for it? Who runs it? Is that 75hp at a cold wet Invercargill (sea level) or a hot dry Taupo (altitude)?

Dyno's are notoriously fickle devices and the more dyno's you have involved the more variation you'll get, and the variations aren't small.

Just line 'em up and let 'em get on with it, the cream will still rise to the top.

[Robert Taylor]

I'm all for classes that go to the best avalaible technology but I'm also aware you need other classes that are accessable to riders that want to compete at a lower level.

I sometimes wonder if some people are in the sport for the love of it or the possiblity of financial return.

Yes and we have those classes.

Financial return is a fact of life for any supplier and what you very very conveniently overlook is that many suppliers who are active in the sport provide a LOT of time out of goodwill. If I personally wanted to earn lots of money I certainly wouldnt be doing what I am doing. Therefore I must like what I am doing, certainly I do get satisfaction out of helping people, very often for no return whatsoever.

Your inference was pathetic and had no basis in fact.

[Robert Taylor]

NZs best racers learnt on production bikes where they learnt at a young age how to ride a bike at its limit. They learnt setup later.

Dear god give it a rest, a couple of decades back there wasnt universally s so many external adjustment options nor any real suspension setup infrastructure and overall level of understanding. Now there is and people have moved with the times. So your statement is actually nonsensical. I would also respectfully suggest that there is not as much support as you may think for your views on turning the clock back.
Ive lost count of the number of SV650s we have fitted emulators and springs to for normal road use / occassional track day. The improvement when done properly is substanial, FACT.
As a related subject to the clique who subscribe to the ''cheapest is best mentality'' We further analysed today a set of those nasty Thai emulator rip offs. I wanted to confirm the standard fitted poppett spring rate. When I started compressing it in stages to measure the rate against my load cell the spring didnt return back to its full length and settled at about 60% of that. You may as well give these to your wife for a set of earrings! Further to that it is very easy to see that the service life will be very short. The main spring sits on top of the emulator and rubs against it, constantly. Its not going to take very long before the thin hard coating wears through to parent softer alloy and then the wear rate will accelerate rapidly, dispersing chards of allopy through the forks. Inevitably that gets embedded in the main fork bushings, junking them. Any engineer worth his salt will see this.
The joy that you have in paying a lower price ( for what are pieces of junk ) lasts only a short time and is long outlived by the frustration in realising you have been fitted.

[gav]

I was a spectator but only really used to go to watch Stroudy race.

Was? You know Stroudy has still been racing? Guess you'll be following the V8 Supercars soon then?