Bloody yanks

[vifferman]

I generally can't stand online forums with merkin participants. Their utter inability to grasp irony and complete lack of a thick-skinned resistance to bollocking makes it the opposite of fun. You have to watch every word you post lest you upset some idiot from Ohio with no sense of humour.

That's bollocks. In my humble opinion. Sir.
I was on a Murkn VFR list for a few years, and generally they were a good bunch of people. I'm also currently on ST.N (Sport-Tourer Network) and that's a bit different - some of the guys on there are hicks etc. But in general I think they do get irony, sarcasm etc. Their sense of humour is a bit different, as is the culture.

One thing I found very odd was their extreme patriotism and how knowledgeable they were about their own history and politics, while being quite parochial and unaware of what was happening outside their own borders. What was scary was how many of them were REALLY into guns, many of them carrying them on their bikes. Freakiest dude was a retired marine who had been a sniper, and he said he'd have no hesitation blowing away someone who broke into his home, and saw nothing wrong with that point of view. Real siege mentality...

[jrandom]

I reckon, a newbie is far more likely to come away with a positive result from a danger situation on a small slow bike than a big fast bike. I thought that was a fact and not just my opinion.

I think it's self-evident. It's really just about how fast you can get into trouble (going into a corner too hot or heading toward a stationary or moving obstruction too fast to avoid it) and how fast you can get out of it.

Getting out of it does depend on the bike's handling and braking but, I think, primarily on the rider's ability to not panic and do the Right Thing. As your ability to avoid and get out of trouble increases with practice, the ability of your bike to get *into* trouble (ie, speed at which it can go from 'happy la la' to 'oh shit' situations) becomes less of a predisposing factor in crashes.

But then I could be entirely wrong.

[Cajun]

I think read somewhere the average of a sports bike in cali before its writen off is 4-6 weeks or something stupid like that, bikes have had a big up over since, movies like biker boys, tourque, and such.

I have many talks with american motorcycles, alot of the older ones have told me they like the idea of our laws, but they can't get the bikes we get, i mean the only 250 they sall new over there is the gpx250, and next is the 500cc of the kawa gpz500.

The younger ones, are like young people the world over, want to be posers, really. but over there, they don't have a choice of getting a nice rs250, new zxr250, so all they can get is a 600, i would perfer someone start on a 600/750 than on something like a valyie(which i have heard about 18 year old guy daddy brought it for his 18th birthday with all the extras(chrome everywhere, him and the bike lasted 1 week)

[jrandom]

That's bollocks. In my humble opinion. Sir.
I was on a Murkn VFR list for a few years

Non-representative sample. They were *VFR riders* fer chrissakes. I mean, like, break out the pipes and slippers, man.

generally they were a good bunch of people

Never claimed they were bad. Just unsubtle.

What was scary was how many of them were REALLY into guns, many of them carrying them on their bikes. Freakiest dude was a retired marine who had been a sniper, and he said he'd have no hesitation blowing away someone who broke into his home, and saw nothing wrong with that point of view.

Two KBers I know of (SpankMe and myself) carry guns on bikes. And *I* wouldn't have any hesitation in shooting a home intruder, although my compliance with NZ's firearms storage laws means that I wouldn't have much chance to do so.

[Edit: genuine question that just crossed my mind. Why is it 'scary' for people to be 'into guns'? I've never met anyone like that who would be a threat to society. It's members of the criminal class getting their hands on firearms that I find worrying, and the criminal mindset does not seem to coincide very often with the 'enthusiast' type that enjoy target shooting and hunting (and who sometimes feel that the use of weapons in self-defense is morally justifiable)]

[Motoracer]

I think it's self-evident. It's really just about how fast you can get into trouble (going into a corner too hot or heading toward a stationary or moving obstruction too fast to avoid it) and how fast you can get out of it.

Getting out of it does depend on the bike's handling and braking but, I think, primarily on the rider's ability to not panic and do the Right Thing. As your ability to avoid and get out of trouble increases with practice, the ability of your bike to get *into* trouble (ie, speed at which it can go from 'happy la la' to 'oh shit' situations) becomes less of a predisposing factor in crashes.

But then I could be entirely wrong.

You are right.

Another factor is the obvious weight difference. When you are on a 250 or less cc bike, less mass means less forces (not as in less number of forces but less amount in Newton of each force) working against you when things go wrong.

[Motoracer]

I have many talks with american motorcycles, alot of the older ones have told me they like the idea of our laws, but they can't get the bikes we get, i mean the only 250 they sall new over there is the gpx250, and next is the 500cc of the kawa gpz500.

That’s right, a dry market for small bikes wouldn't give them many options. A change in the Law could bring plenty of nice small bikes into the US because of the increased demand. However, since all the states in US are like separate countries, it would be unrealistic to expect a Law change like the cc restriction for the whole of USA all of a sudden. I guess they are doomed to be stuck with big bikes to learn with.

Poor buggers.

BTW 750Y, your on to it! It sounds like you are speaking from experience as well?

[geoffm]

Um, there is actually good evidence (see the 'Hurt Report' = will post the link if I can find it again*) that limiting cc size / horse power for learner motorcyclists has little effect. I think the overall summary was the cc rating had no effect on the _frequency_ of crashes, only the severity of the accident.

I have often thought that there shoudl be a power limit rather than a CC limit. there are many 250cc+ bikes that would be great for learners - GS500s etc. They are also bigger than the 250s for those more-than-ample people amongst us.
45hp - same as Japan would make sense in NZ. In Europe, it is 33hp for ages. Uk has 12 hp for learners, which is downright dangerous
Geoff

[Cajun]

Yeah power limits is a good idea, i mean you can get power limiters kits for the busa, yay lets make a 140+hp motorcycle in to a down to anything under 50hp is just murder.

But i mean if 2 stoke 250s shouldn't be owned by learners, thats my feeling, but then ya have to change law, which creates a bigger mess.

[Drunken Monkey]

I have often thought that there shoudl be a power limit rather than a CC limit. there are many 250cc+ bikes that would be great for learners - GS500s etc. They are also bigger than the 250s for those more-than-ample people amongst us.
45hp - same as Japan would make sense in NZ. In Europe, it is 33hp for ages. Uk has 12 hp for learners, which is downright dangerous
Geoff

Good point- a learner can legally ride a 250cc 2-stroke RGV/NSR/et al tuned to 90+ hp. A bike with that little weight and that much peaky power makes a fair mockery of the cc rules. On the other hand, some of those 500cc European super scooters are quite sedate rides = why shouldn't a learner be allowed to ride one? All of you tall buggers know how difficult it is to find a comfortable <250cc bike...

Of course that raises the question of flouting the hp law. HP is more expensive to police. Just look at all those Suzuki street magic 'mopeds' out there that have had the 'power' tweak (grind out those washers, baby) and are running 8-12hp more than the moped maximum.
Granted a cc law isn't bullet proof either. My flatmate rides a Vespa Reg'd as a 50cc moped, when it is in fact a >125cc (can't remember the cc rating) 4 speed...

[pete376403]

Used to read rec.motorcycles, but then that's full of potbellied bearded Hardley riding types (including the women)..

Rec.moto USED to be good value (this was about 10-11 yeas ago, pre WWW as we know it now, my access was via the Welcom BBS). Used to be a lot of trans-atlantic talk (Adny, etc) the big thing was getting a DoD number (which I never did), the Aerostich versus leather, synthetic versus dino, don't mention the guns threads and Harleys were definitely flame bait. Sorry to hear its degraded.

[Drunken Monkey]

Time and time again I have seen people (mostly good mates) who were inexperienced but had the money to buy very fast bikes, crash way too many times for it to be non cc related crashes.

Fair 'nuff, but that's not what I was saying. Your observations aren't necessarily going to be the same as an objective, scientific report.

EVERYONE knows that the bigger the bike is the more unforgiveing they are for little mistakes. eg going in too hot or locking up wheels or speed wobbels or spinning the rear tire up while cornering etc etc.

Was your mate's Aprilla RS250 more forgiving than say, a GS500 would be? Gotta compare apples with apples - not everyone is going to ride a sportbike. A mistake a lot of us sportbike riders make (myself included) is generalise that as the cc's increase, so must the speed of the bike -an assumption that the rider in question is riding a sporty - they may not be. Tourers of the same cc as a sport bike are not going to be as fast (cf a 70hp 1500cc harley vs a 140hp 750cc gixxer: double the power in half the cc).
Geometry effects twitchiness, not engine size. In a strict sense, a bigger engine will have more mass, thus more inertia and tend to not want to wobble about. Sportbikes wobble because of their extreme geometry - front wheel pulled back on a sharp angle, short wheelbase, etc...

I reckon, a newbie is far more likely to come away with a positive result from a danger situation on a small slow bike than a big fast bike. I thought that was a fact and not just my opinion.

If you 'reckon', then it is an opinion. However, in general, I, and most people with common sense, would agree with that statement.
Type of bike is still a big factor. The biggest factor of all is still how much you twist your wrist.

[jrandom]

Rec.moto USED to be good value

uk.rec.motorcycles is the place to be on USENET these days for any intelligent bike talk. It's still more soap opera than motorcycles, though, except for the occasional recommendation that a newbie buy a CG125 (makes Sign of Holy Pushrods).

I have to admit, though, the recent real-world sex-change of a veteran ukrm poster livened things up a bit.

[vifferman]

genuine question that just crossed my mind. Why is it 'scary' for people to be 'into guns'? I've never met anyone like that who would be a threat to society. It's members of the criminal class getting their hands on firearms that I find worrying, and the criminal mindset does not seem to coincide very often with the 'enthusiast' type that enjoy target shooting and hunting (and who sometimes feel that the use of weapons in self-defense is morally justifiable)]

Have you not read some of the gun threads on Murkn forums then? It's not the "being enthusiastic about guns" thing that's scary, but the weird attitudes some of them have, often combined with questionable intelligence.
And the marine sniper dude came across in most postings as being sorta OK, but when he was talking about shooting people, and alluding to some of the assignments he'd had, he came across as a cold-blooded killer, lacking in compassion and some of the more admirable human attributes.
At least he appreciated the VFR for the fine all-round bike it is. Like Merv.
A Top Bloke is Merv.

[jrandom]

The biggest factor of all is still how much you twist your wrist.

How fast you ride the bike can affect things, too.

[Drunken Monkey]

Can be found:

http://www.clarity.net/~adam/hurt-report.html

Thanks.