My maori thread

[cowpoos]

I want a chocolate bar..............


















































please

[James Deuce]

I think I've explained the issues I have with maoridom in my post quite clearly. Culture is fine and good. We should value it, just not with money.

I think this thread is excellent because it expresses what you were trying to convey a great deal better, but I still don't understand why all Maori have to be held accountable under a very tightly defined set of criteria?

Ngai Tahu are probbaly the best run corporate in NZ, with strategic goals that extend beyond making money. They don't make the news unless a Sealord worker dies in a fishing boat accident, or they have fines applied retroactively because quota changed retrospectively.

Ixion, you're right, BUT, Maori have only recently had access as a Culture to the same opportunites we have.

Saslex, it wasn't hundreds of years ago. It is within the scope of vision of only 4 generations to see how modern NZ developed. Maori shouldn't have Maori MPs. Why should a tribal society with their own sovereignty have to participate in a foreign Government?

We've forced them to drop their culture, sat back and sniggered as they descended into the chaos that all tribal societies faced during the scope of European Colonisation did and then, worst of all, given the underachievers fish instead of teaching them how to fish. Now we have the temerity to claim that they are nothing more than dole bludging losers, entrenched in that life style.

When we're challenged with the question, "what are you going to do about it?", we go, "It's your problem and you're all violent wife beating child abusers."

I remain impressed that Finn took the time to explain himself, but ever since a chance dinner with James Belich and Tipene O'Regan, I've tried to challenge my perceptions and understanding of the recent history of NZ. Michael King's book and James Belich's TV Documentaries and books should be standard reading for everyone that lives in NZ.

[Lou Girardin]

Why should a tribal society with their own sovereignty have to participate in a foreign Government?

They do not have sovereignty. They ceded that to England.
Despite what they now wish they had done, or what they want us to believe, or even what ever more fanciful interpretations of the treaty may say, that is a fact.

[sAsLEX]

Saslex, it wasn't hundreds of years ago. It is within the scope of vision of only 4 generations to see how modern NZ developed. Maori shouldn't have Maori MPs. Why should a tribal society with their own sovereignty have to participate in a foreign Government?

Umm so your saying we should live as seperate peoples in the one country? With us non maori people having our government and our infrastucture, and them having their own form of self government?! How would the roading/prisons/ different laws etc work?

Can you give an example of another country that does something similar to what you are suggesting?

So if it wan't hundreds of years ago...... well it was.

We've forced them to drop their culture

ummm sure you walked about recently Te Reo is on more and more things these days. Our European names are being changed back to their traditional ones, ie Mt Taranaki not Egmount anymore.
Have you watched tv recently? Any channel, most seem to have Maori language programming, and you see alot of large kapa haka competitions on there as well showing that many are keeping their culture alive and well.

[Ixion]

Ixion, you're right, BUT, Maori have only recently had access as a Culture to the same opportunites we have.

Well, recently only in the sense that NZ is a recent country. Tis maybe 150 years since great(n)-Grandfather sussed out the newcomers had some good toys. Bought (built maybe, not sure) a boat, set up ferrying people about, expanded to running a service between Russell and Auckland, did some trading on the side,bought a house, sent his kids to school (might have been grandkids).

EDIT: He was a tough old bastard by accounts. His daughter married my other great(n-1)-grandfather, who once was foolish enough to give her a clip upside the head. Great(n)-grandfather "had a word". Sorted. Now bear in mind that great(n-1)-grandfather was a old school seaman, shipping on whaling boats of the 19th C , and pretty handy with his fists as most of his kindred were.

Didn't take most Maori long to cotton on to how to work the new system.

What we call "Maori" now are only a tiny tiny fraction of the whole Maori-blood population. The fraction that couldn't or wouldn't, adapt.

Tempted here to invoke Darwin. Adapt, or perish.

[Maha]

And on a seperate note ....... unemployment figures have risen by 10,000 in the Waikato in the last two days?.... what the fuck's going on there?....

[candor]

Being Maori in a modern urban "pakeha" world is what killed my partner. Was not mentally equipped for it. Things too alien.

These kids getting killed - imo its happening because the people involved are very degraded and dehumanised without any "culture" apart from ight is right ie feral, plus often addled on alcohol and drugs, if not before birth by fetal alcohol syndrom then definitely after. Keep druinking and drugging hard a few years amnd you will see IQ points lost then you can't figure your oen shit out regardless if CYPs put you on some behaviour or parenting course.

I have sat with some "lower socio-economic" ie 3rd generation dependent type families and heard the encouragement being given to have more babies as the youngest is now near the age of independence.... so where will the booze money come from then?

Westernised Maori seem fine, descendents of those who clung to old ways but got marginalised for it (and lost the old ways anyway apart from tokenism rituals etc) sem to be the ones without a sense of identity or spiritual worth. Who are at the crux of the repeating cycles.

They are drawing on the worst of both cultures, mixed them up to create a mutant or shall we say "dysfunctional" cross breed, and left the rest (the balancing cultural aspects) fully out of the equation. A very stinky brew.

[mstriumph]

Umm so your saying we should live as seperate peoples in the one country? With us non maori people having our government and our infrastucture, and them having their own form of self government?! How would the roading/prisons/ different laws etc work?

Can you give an example of another country that does something similar to what you are suggesting?

......................

Yes

Australia seems to be heading in that direction - under the banner of multiculturism

than and the apologists view that persons with aborigine blood are over-represented in the prison population because society demands too much of them [instead of the more realistic view that society demands of aborigines only the same as it demands of everyone else here but that they transgress [or get caught] more often]

there seems to be a growing acceptence by everyone except the general electorate that aborigines should be permitted their own courts, punishments and administrative/governance systems ....... funded from the public purse

there is already a growth industry in seperate, publically-funded, aborigine legal services and other things to which non-aborigines do not have access [although aborigines can access either their own or the more general services open to all australian residents]

what do i feel?
i feel it is divisive, unfair and will end in tears

[Paul in NZ]

That maybe true. But it was a few hundred years ago. They are now a full part of this nation and have the same rights as every other NZ citizen, but because of past errors they are now above normal citizens. Hell they have their own special MP's. Do you see any other race that is an integral part of NZ and our culture having its own MPs? Scots, Irish, English MP's even chinese MP's cause hell chinese have been here for hundreds of years as well and where is their voice.

Why should the nation be held at ransom for something that happened so long ago? All treaty settlements should be cleared, settled not just written off, and then NZ should think of writing a new Treaty, scrapping the old one, and becoming a nature of "one people" not us and them as it is now.

Yes - but I'm sorry, fair trade applies. Maori were given certain rights in return for accepting the crown. You can't bleat about it being unfair now when the fact is, Maori have been seriously disadvantaged for many years. Yes, their is a greivience industry but their are legitimate greivences and not all of them go back hundreds of years, some are within our lifetimes.

Maori have a lot to offer this country and I want to see the resurgence of maori culture and commercial success. I don't want to see an underclass of beneficiaries and neither do most maori.

The key to this is working together to solve the problem but you can't blame maori for being a little suspicious about deals with the crown eh?

[Lou Girardin]

The key to this is working together to solve the problem but you can't blame maori for being a little suspicious about deals with the crown eh?

After receiving several hundred million in settlements, you'd think they'd trust us by now.
That's several hundred million that doesn't seem to have made a blind bit of difference to any of their negative social and health indicators.
But after seeing the Muriwhenua settlement debacle, where the northern tribes fought tooth and nail to prevent urban Maori get their hands on any of the loot, it's obvious that tribal beliefs run deep.
Call it corruption or call it culture, the fact is that only a few benefit.
This is what Alan Duff is vehemently opposed to.

[sAsLEX]

I want to see the resurgence of maori culture

ummm to what? Completely overtake any other culture? They have their own tv station, they have many culture villages making a buck off the tourist, they have tame iti prancing about in a skirt with a gun, they have the 2nd official language, most kids have to learn some of the language at school , every Govt dept has to edure Marae visit after Marae visit, every thing that happens in this country has a maori welcome/blessing, they have the haka representing their culture to the rugby word, they have huge kapa haka competitions where schools and groups from the whole country compete


yip I can really see the lack of their culture from what I see.

[Paul in NZ]

ummm to what? Completely overtake any other culture? They have their own tv station, they have many culture villages making a buck off the tourist, they have tame iti prancing about in a skirt with a gun, they have the 2nd official language, most kids have to learn some of the language at school , every Govt dept has to edure Marae visit after Marae visit, every thing that happens in this country has a maori welcome/blessing, they have the haka representing their culture to the rugby word, they have huge kapa haka competitions where schools and groups from the whole country compete


yip I can really see the lack of their culture from what I see.

These things are a balancing act. Yes, there is too much of some but not enough of the other. I genuinely believe that a lot of maori youth's problems are based on a disconnection from their culture. I would like NZ to adopt more maori place names and some of the language creep into everyday use.

Why not? It makes the place unique and brings us together surely..

Paul n

[MWVT]

They do not have sovereignty. They ceded that to England.
Despite what they now wish they had done, or what they want us to believe, or even what ever more fanciful interpretations of the treaty may say, that is a fact.

Firstly - This thread = much better

As to your comments Lou, Defining sovereignty is a very difficult exercise (even remaining only in English)

Secondly the waters get muddied more and more when you account for translation "inconsistencies".

Thirdly it gets even more convoluted when you begin to examine who in fact signed the treaty, and whether they even had the authority to sign what they were signing. (that applies to both sides of the agreement incidentally)

Now i know what some of you are thinking (me included.... sometimes). What a poxy stuffed up mistranslated semi-legitimate piece of mumbo jumbo, throw it in the rubbish, start fresh.

Reality Check - politically, highly difficult if not impossible. Should the annulment of an agreement require the consent of both parties??

The big question is.... should (emphasis on should) the descendants of long dead folks honour the treaty the said long dead folks signed?? If someone could have a crack at answering that, i would much appreciate it. Also defining sovereignty, go on try it, it's hard.

[sAsLEX]

These things are a balancing act. Yes, there is too much of some but not enough of the other. I genuinely believe that a lot of maori youth's problems are based on a disconnection from their culture. I would like NZ to adopt more maori place names and some of the language creep into everyday use.

Why not? It makes the place unique and brings us together surely..

Paul n

But the other cultures and how they arrived here also make us unique. The mix of European, Pacific, Asian and other cultures makes New Zealand what it is, not just the fact we have Maoris.

I think it is shit that people think being culturally sensitive means ripping down names that have stood for hundreds of years named by our countries forefathers who helped shape this nation, and just replacing them with some Maori name.

As a Nation we have moved on from being this "Colonial" thing Jim keeps going on about. Our nation is a melting pot, an out of the way chain of islands that have been populated by many cultures/races/peoples over the last thousand years. Does the fact that the Maoris claim to be here first mean they have right for the rest of time to hold a "Sword of Damocles" over our heads lest we upset one of their ancient beliefs, which they handily never recorded.....

I say get the fuck over it. You did not rise to meet the challange and you were not victorious, be thankful you all weren't slaughtered like other conqured peoples, be thankful that your culture is still a part of our nation,be thankful to continue co-existing in this land of the long white cloud.

[ManDownUnder]

Finn - that's a post worth reading. Class all the way.

I agree - there are problems in Maoridom, and the answers to them are not cash, although some money may be needed for the resources to achieve the right ends.

Get rid of the hopelessness, lack of direction and loss of mana endured by all for far too long. The sad irony is that I think Maori have such a rich, and proud culture - something all Maori could be grounded in if they chose. Maybe it's a case of Maori not knowing who they are - they have the choice to be traditional Maori, contemporary (i.e. living in the "now" New Zealand), or 1/2 American a la the music and secular culture pouring out of the TV and radio every time you turn the damned things on.

I love the particular irony of the Texans recognising the iconic nature of the culture and adopting it for a theme park - although I remain realistic about their motives... ($$$ KA-CHING $$$).

Too much to say so I'll astop now, and join in as stuff comes up... but cool post Finn.. Blingo mate... Greenies being flicked your way