F3 Rules, what ya all reckon?

[cowpoos]

Won't it be fairly obvious (and easier to police) if someone cheats? If you've got two or three SV's in a race and one of them has clearly got a HP advantage then it's highly likely that they've been modifying the engine. If however engine mods are allowed and one bike is faster, then its harder to prove they're cheating- maybe they just did a better job.

a fast rider can easily make a slow bike look fast.....no doubt I get the jist of what your saying....but it ain't that easy to police

[MVnut]

The Cagiva has USD forks, not sure how much adjustment, about 1500 bucks more than the SV650S, be good to see some racing, cool bikes.

[texmo]

Most people cant afford to race to the few that can these rule changes will make no diffrence.

[GSVR]

One very good way to keep things even is to make sure bikes aren't putting out more power or weight less than they should.

Weighing the bikes is easy but to measure the power output would require a dyno that could be taken to national points races. There was one floating around a few years back.

When someone is suspect their bike could be measured at the end of the race and if its making more HP than Suzuki say its should (which no SVs do anyway) or weighs less than the set dry limit then its bye bye result. Easy.

Or set a HP per KG limit for all bikes.

[Cleve]

Why all this hostility towards SV's? I don't get it? Why all this "we have to protect 20 year old 400 4's from 5 year old 650 twins?"...
Next year Suzuki/Kawasaki might remake the GSXR400/ZXR400 into an SV beater... Back before the SV who was whining that 400 4's need to be confined to standard trim?
F3 should have bikes that go and handle well and changing the rules to stop SV's from having decent brakes and handling is just dumb. It is a racing class for gods sake! Race bikes in a formula class should handle well. If they want to help ancient 400's stay with newer 650's then at least allow the SV's to have decent brakes and handling (and we all like nice noises from race bikes so also let them change the pipe too)!

[spudchucka]

If the SV650's end up redundant for road racing you could always do this to them......


then slap on some 17's and go supermotarding.

[Shaun]

It would be really nice if people that have nothing serious to offer in this thread stay out of it

[Hillbilly]

Don't forget the Kawasaki ER-6F, which is a 650 parallel twin. I wonder what the maximum HP can be gotten out of a 650 v-twin - 90 HP? I mean, 70 hp is pretty lame. The GS500 puts out 52hp. A Susiki GSX250F Across puts out 45hp. The Cagiva Mito 525 SP puts out 38 hp, and it's a 125. The Honda NSR 150 puts out 40 hp.

American Legend Motorsports have a Hyosung bored out to 750, and it puts out 155 bhp. Mind you, it's got a titanium valves etc.

[texmo]

It would be really nice if people that have nothing serious to offer in this thread stay out of it

Just one question, what do they hope to acheive by creating these limits we have to reply to?

[kickingzebra]

I seriously think it is cheaper to just get a few year old 600 and go the clubmans to f2 way, then if you pick up the pace a bit, onto newer machinery. I mean, you can get old 600 race bikes, with all the parts for sub 10k
For me I would never even consider f3ing an SV or similiar. Solely for the dollars aspect.

Was the original brief for f3 to provide an easy entry point to racing?

I suspect scoring bikes for a power to weight ratio, and adjusting placings at the end would be the easiest way to make as close to a fair system as possible. A race win is a race win however, and if you get it, (and haven't cheated) you deserve it!
Maybe leave the placings as are, but add a secondary scoring table, for power to weight adjusted figures which counts to end of season points...

I didn't realise SVs had a solid exhaust system through... If that is the case replacing cans only is madness.

Racing is a sport for people who can afford it anyway, and if I had the nouse to do some amzing thing to my bike to make it handle, and go better, I would want that to be recognised in the placings.

Its a hard call for MNZ, thats for sure!

[svs]

Just catching up with all this. But after reading it through, it would appear that my bike would still be legal (almost).

My problem is the exhaust - it's got a full system on. As shaun rightly pointed out the original is one piece and the system I got came on my road bike - I don't have a standard system to revert to

As for retaining the original front end. I've got the racetech springs and emulators and whilst it isn't easily adjustable, it's good enough for now and I have yet to be convinced that spending a couple of grand on a new front end would improve things all that much. However picking up crash damaged SV's with frontal damage is how a number of race bikes are born....

Also, how's this for a contadiction.

650cc twin Modifications allowed are
...
Air filter replaced or removed.

but

...must retain the standard OME air box, air filter element and carburetor..

And what about using parts off newer models? e.g. cams off 03 on model have better profile than 99-02 models. Can an older bike be updated?

I know these are just proposed changes, but they need a bit more thought. After all this is the only remaining formula class in NZ. What about those of us who like to tinker (not necessarily spend money) to try and make the bike better.

[motobob]

What about those of us who like to tinker (not necessarily spend money) to try and make the bike better.

If you want to tinker its simple Phil you go to F1.

Seriously thought I agree with Shauns points. The class is a place where people can learn racecraft and work on the bike changing things. For F3 to be a class that allows a wide spectrum of machinery of various vintage to compete the rules need to be carefully considered. The SV is a popular motorcycle in club racing in near standard trim and a few of us have invested in GSXR front ends simply to future proof the bike. After all the 400 fours have had a 20 year run.

All eliglible motorcycles in F3 should be allowed to change out old style forks for USD. This at least allows all machines to have similar corner speeds which would otherwise create frustration leading to accidents. I'm sure this is why 125's are no longer in F3. Any F3 rider will sure give his opinion on mixing Motards with F3 on their different cornering speeds.

I'll leave it at suspension for now.

[Brian d marge]

Just a quickie before I toddle off to bed,

While I cant speak for Road racing in NZ , I can Talk about MX ,

You go to the shop ,plonk down 5 to 10 k ( or even less, 2 k for a 01 model ~)

This has, fully ajustable suspension, high speed low speed , 2 or three stage shim stack , and now twin chambers

you buy 200 bucks worth of safety gear, and you could possibly run and beat the beast in NZ ,

The enterance fees arnt very much ( niethers the prize money !!) but with a comitment , you could be no 2 in the world champs ...coppins???...king??

The grids tend to fill , and it has a knock on effect ( which telly hasnt yet cottoned on to yet !)

So you have a cheap bike , thats teaching you set up , race craft , abd all the other stuff , and I bet those people who race overseas , have had to adjust big style to meet the professional level ( just a guess that one )

So what we want is a race series that is cheap to enter , sets the rider up in terms of knowledge and has full grids

The only thing I can see of doing this is the Auzzie timed grids ( you ar e placed in a race because of your lap time , not the bike, if you want to go faster you have to learn how to , either by bike set up , throwing money , or bravado

My personal opinion , I would like to see a return of GP style 125 /250 which tries to mirror the top level in the way its run So that emergin riders are used to the corporate ways of team management

anyway that my thoughts

Back to F3 , my personal barriers to entering that clas would be , Motards running there , and the Sv650

Though IF a riders of Merit such as shuan could get an a SV and post near identical times on both a 400 and a Sv then i think they should stay, As it would really rule out the bike and come down to rider skill.

But IF the SV are constanly 2 or 3 seconds ahead of the rest of the field ,,no its unfair , and the mads should go in place ..

Just a thought Stephen

[spudchucka]

It would be really nice if people that have nothing serious to offer in this thread stay out of it

Thats hardly the kiwibiker attitude we are used to. Piss-taking is a way of life around these parts.

[Shaun]

Understand your point but, this is quite a serious issue, and for once it would be good to see if people can stay out of shit that does not concern them and try to stay on topic, Is that possible here on KB"er