Gunshop employee charged

**scumdog** · 13th November 2006, 17:16

Maybe Jim2, he had a loaded magazine 'stashed' somewhere that would in an emergency be capable of fitting a certain one or two stategicly placed pistols in the show room display cabinet??

I know if I worked in a place like that I would do it.

**jrandom** · 13th November 2006, 17:18

I'm going to tell a little story about guns and self-defense here, that I've told on this forum before.

When I got my firearms licence, the copper who visited to interview me and Mrs Fish commented on the subject.

He made the point that keeping a loaded gun in the house for self-defense was illegal.

However, should an armed intruder burst in while I was, say, cleaning a rifle, and should I manage to pop a cap in his arse using what I legitimately had at hand, I would have committed no offense.

All the cops that I know would undoubtedly be quite happy to see such a justification clearly presented in such a situation. Of course, if I happened to be under the eyes of several third parties when I pulled a loaded pistol from my pocket to shoot an aggressor, such a justification would be more or less unavailable.

The law's a bit awkward, but I'd like to see someone come up with something better.

**jrandom** · 13th November 2006, 17:23

Originally Posted by scumdog

Maybe Jim2, he had a loaded magazine 'stashed' somewhere that would in an emergency be capable of fitting a certain one or two stategicly placed pistols in the show room display cabinet??

A friend of mine who's known the Carvells for a while as a regular customer commented on the day this happened that it had always been 'well known' that any criminal attempting to hold up SAI would be quickly dealt with in such a manner.

So there you go. My heart goes out to them, and I would probably have done the same thing.

But it's still illegal, and I would have stashed that mag in the sure knowledge of what I'd have to put up with if I ever used it.

I view the daily carry of my Chinook in the same light. If I ever need to use it, I'm fully aware that the next time I see it, it'll be inside an evidence bag.

And that's the way I like it.

**scumdog** · 13th November 2006, 17:28

Originally Posted by Fish

A friend of mine who's known the Carvells for a while as a regular customer commented on the day this happened that it had always been 'well known' that any criminal attempting to hold up SAI would be quickly dealt with in such a manner.

So there you go. My heart goes out to them, and I would probably have done the same thing.

But it's still illegal, and I would have stashed that mag in the sure knowledge of what I'd have to put up with if I ever used it.

I view the daily carry of my Chinook in the same light. If I ever need to use it, I'm fully aware that the next time I see it, it'll be inside an evidence bag.

And that's the way I like it.

I'm with you Fish, if the wrong dude enters my place (watch it Dangerous, Mr Sensible and some other of you Christchurch rabble) I would take my chances with the jury.
No, I DON'T have a loaded gun beside my bed - but then only the intruder will know what I DO have - and too late for him "If he ain't down he ain't done"

**Bend-it** · 13th November 2006, 17:43

So isn't there something wrong when the law prohibits us from doing something we all think is right, even the cops among us?

So self defence is okay, but being ready to defend yourself isn't? What kinda bollocks is that? It's like saying you can take a piss anytime you like, but don't you undo your fly!

What was the alternative of NOT having the gun ready? He would have been chopped up, AND have guns stolen.

So, Mr Prosecutor person, which would you prefer? Nutter shot, everyone else happy, or law-abiding guy copped up into small bits and ANOTHER firearm/s out there in the lose?

Mr Carvelle should be given a medal for gallantry and initiative in the face of danger! In fact, I propose we make up a KB medal for him and send it to them!

Bloody tree-hugging seal-kissing hippies...

**jrandom** · 13th November 2006, 17:48

Originally Posted by Bend-it

So isn't there something wrong when the law prohibits us from doing something we all think is right...?

Sure is.

We're a bit of a selective subset of society here on KB, so you can't draw too many generalised conclusions from this thread.

But if you want to start a petition for a referendum on whether the legal position vis-a-vis carrying (or at least storing ready-for-use at home) weapons for self-defence should be changed, I'll sign it.

**Bend-it** · 13th November 2006, 18:01

Yeah, I don't think carrying's a good idea at all, but storing for use at home definitely has its merits...

**jrandom** · 13th November 2006, 18:10

Originally Posted by Bend-it

storing for use at home...

One word, though. Kids.

Now, my guys (3 and 4), I'd never ever leave an unsafe gun around, but I suspect they'd be safe enough if they stumbled across one. They've both put a round through the 30-30, and they've both seen up close what rifle bullets do to game animals.

They now give firearms a very wide berth.

When it boils down to it, though, they just don't have the necessary judgment, and they won't have for another 15 years at least. As soon as you legalise loaded firearms around the house, you just know that somewhere, sooner or later, a child is going to die that wouldn't have otherwise.

I'm not saying that's a final argument against it, but it gives one pause for thought, doesn't it?

**scumdog** · 13th November 2006, 18:14

Originally Posted by Bend-it

So isn't there something wrong when the law prohibits us from doing something we all think is right, even the cops among us?

So self defence is okay, but being ready to defend yourself isn't? What kinda bollocks is that? It's like saying you can take a piss anytime you like, but don't you undo your fly!

What was the alternative of NOT having the gun ready? He would have been chopped up, AND have guns stolen.

So, Mr Prosecutor person, which would you prefer? Nutter shot, everyone else happy, or law-abiding guy copped up into small bits and ANOTHER firearm/s out there in the lose?

Mr Carvelle should be given a medal for gallantry and initiative in the face of danger! In fact, I propose we make up a KB medal for him and send it to them!

Bloody tree-hugging seal-kissing hippies...

Ah c'mon Mr Bendit, chill out dude, there's a fair bit of Chicken-Little attitude in what you're saying.
Don't jump to conclusions eh?

**jtzzr** · 13th November 2006, 18:24

He`s guilty ,the guy shot a man whilst defending himself , there`s no excuse . Has anyone thought of the guy that got shot , he probably can`t go out in public anymore because of this "Horiffic crime against him and deserves reparation.I`m talking absolute SHIT and you all know it ,but like in a not too dissimilar thread the pc brigade and the idiotic law makers in this country have no idea how the public feel about these situations, Rant over , I wish the shop owner well.

**Clivoris** · 13th November 2006, 18:26

Originally Posted by Fish

One word, though. Kids.

When it boils down to it, though, they just don't have the necessary judgment, and they won't have for another 15 years at least. As soon as you legalise loaded firearms around the house, you just know that somewhere, sooner or later, a child is going to die that wouldn't have otherwise.

I'm not saying that's a final argument against it, but it gives one pause for thought, doesn't it?

That brings the memories flooding back. As a young man of around 15 I managed to get my hands on my Dad's 22 while he was out. As our house was being demolished at the time, a buddy and I decided it would be a bit of a laugh to put a few rounds into the house. We fired off 6-10 rounds and had a ball...until my old man got home and found the caravan parked on the other side of the house riddled with bullet holes.

This was in a suburban area too. It took me a few years to work out that my life could have been quite different if that caravan hadn't been there. Young n dumb.

**MattRSK** · 13th November 2006, 18:31

Yeah oh well.

**scumdog** · 13th November 2006, 18:31

Originally Posted by Clivoris

That brings the memories flooding back. As a young man of around 15 I managed to get my hands on my Dad's 22 while he was out. As our house was being demolished at the time, a buddy and I decided it would be a bit of a laugh to put a few rounds into the house. We fired off 6-10 rounds and had a ball...until my old man got home and found the caravan parked on the other side of the house riddled with bullet holes.

This was in a suburban area too. It took me a few years to work out that my life could have been quite different if that caravan hadn't been there. Young n dumb.

THAT is why firearms education is so important.
A lot of bozos that watch too many DVDs think bullets only go as far as the first thing they hit - like a board-room table, a house wall etc - when in fact a 303 etc will go right through a whole house.

**RabidTraNZiT** · 13th November 2006, 18:32

Originally Posted by Fish

A friend of mine who's known the Carvells for a while as a regular customer commented on the day this happened that it had always been 'well known' that any criminal attempting to hold up SAI would be quickly dealt with in such a manner.

Certainly wasn't trying to wind you up, Fish, and no, I don't want to go back to the wild west justice system. Dunno how much good a referendum would be, 'cos I believe that they are not binding, and subject to govt veto. I think, however, that the numbers would be pretty close from a home protection standpoint.

At my A cat interview I was told a pretty similar thing to what you were regarding 'cleaning'. It must be semi-official, but I hope to never need to find out. If it makes any sense, I would use one to protect my wife, for myself I wouldn't bother, 'cos it wouldn't be the first kicking I had, and prolly wont be my last...

I got mugged in London in '91, got a bit of a nick on my arm from a knife. There were 2 of them, they got 100 pounds off me. Funny thing was I had about 10x that worth of camera gear in my backpack, and a photographic monopod which I clobbered one of them with. Cops were very good - the toerags were known to them, but I remain nervous of blades.

I certainly agree with you that we don't want to see any carrying of firearms - too much like the US.

Yep, that statement from the shop owner was something that I had heard/read too, and there's a chance that that fact will be used by the prosecutor to prove that there was some prior intent. As you correctly pointed out, the offence was actually having a weapon to hand.

This might very well be enough to get his D cat revoked, thereby forcing him out of work, and I think you have to agree that's wrong. Greg was not the instigator, but he will end up paying more than the perp.

BTW Fish: Chinook = biiiig chopper, am I right?