NZ Roads: Criminal Negligence?

[idleidolidyll]

The skid resistance of both those materials is far below that of chip seal

R

really? then please tell me why thy don't pave race tracks in chipseal

[Ixion]

Hm. I have never experienced any issues with adhesion on concrete, even when wet.

And I suggest that the grip quality of chip seal is overrated. Granted it may be good when the seal is new and the edges of the chips are sharp. But I have observed that after a while, the chips become polished and rounded and then the grip becomes quite poor. You can spot the polished off chip seal when riding, I always treat it with great caution.

If concrete is so expensive, why was it used extensively for roads in the 1930s through 50s (those that were not gravel off course). There was less money then than now.

I have argued before that in fact , in the long run, concrete is CHEAPER than chip seal, because it lasts so well. Those 1930s concrete roads are mostly STILL there, buried under a few inches of hotmix. You can see them when they rip the hot mix off to relay it, and the concrete is STILL in good nick, after more than half a century.

[cooneyr]

ahh, motorcyclists lives and limbs are to be sold cheaply, sacrificed on the altar of 4 wheeled pandering by govt.

and here i was thinking your argument was actually based on some PC fantasy

never mind, each to their own. you can suck up to Transit, Fulton Hogan and Helenback, I'll protest the pathetic lack of due care for motorcyclists in my own way as described in the original post.

Forget the money read the first para of my post. And before you say that race tracks are made from hotmix therefore must provide better grip - the surfacing has to withstand much much higher cornering forces without being ripped to shreads.

R

[jonbuoy]

What is'Sprinkling?' If you mean after potholes have been filled or patches have been completed then yes the contractor should sweep. If it has just been ripped up what do you want, network inspectors driving the road constantly 24/7 for a few loose chips and sealing crews on permenant stand by to fix it/sweep up even if it is 2am and a few loose stones?
I can't speak for the whole countries roads but the network we maintain have few bikers down but plenty of trucks and cars.

I mean like this : http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=39552
After repair work, everyone understands roads have to be maintained, fresh seal is not a problem as long as we know about it. When the signs are not put up or taken away too soon then it is a problem.

[Motu]

Your safety is in your hands,not the hands of others.I don't care if nothing is ever done on our roads,they will revert back to gravel and I'll be happy.How long have you moaners been riding not to understand Ride To The Conditions?

[idleidolidyll]

Forget the money read the first para of my post. And before you say that race tracks are made from hotmix therefore must provide better grip - the surfacing has to withstand much much higher cornering forces without being ripped to shreads.

R

too late

now please be kind enough to provide the friction coeffiecient for both materials

BTW: it's the basecourse and hotmix proportions that provide a road with its strength.
FYI: I worked in the construction industry for decades, rollers and pavers were my staple, FH and WorksCorp were my biggest customers

[cooneyr]

Hm. I have never experienced any issues with adhesion on concrete, even when wet.

And I suggest that the grip quality of chip seal is overrated. Granted it may be good when the seal is new and the edges of the chips are sharp. But I have observed that after a while, the chips become polished and rounded and then the grip becomes quite poor. You can spot the polished off chip seal when riding, I always treat it with great caution.

If concrete is so expensive, why was it used extensively for roads in the 1930s through 50s (those that were not gravel off course). There was less money then than now.

I have argued before that in fact , in the long run, concrete is CHEAPER than chip seal, because it lasts so well. Those 1930s concrete roads are mostly STILL there, buried under a few inches of hotmix. You can see them when they rip the hot mix off to relay it, and the concrete is STILL in good nick, after more than half a century.

You are quite correct - chip does get polished. This is one of the things that sets the standard behing sources of rock for chip and the interval behind sealing.

Concrete was used back in the "old days" cause that is what the yanks did. It is a good material if you have really really crappy ground to go over, poor quality or not enough aggregate and very very high volumes of traffic (higher than we have in NZ). The last point explains why the concrete is still OK(ish) today - the very low traffic volumes. There are a couple of stretches still here in little old chch.

Damn it, yer allright, (ammo for you) it is damn expensive to lay first time round too even if it does have a long life cycle.

R

[jonbuoy]

Your safety is in your hands,not the hands of others.I don't care if nothing is ever done on our roads,they will revert back to gravel and I'll be happy.How long have you moaners been riding not to understand Ride To The Conditions?

How can you ride to the conditions if you don't know they are going to change around the next bend? Or should we all be riding at 80KM/h just in case?

[cooneyr]

too late

now please be kind enough to provide the friction coeffiecient for both materials

BTW: it's the basecourse and hotmix proportions that provide a road with its strength.
FYI: I worked in the construction industry for decades, rollers and pavers were my staple, FH and WorksCorp were my biggest customers

Done have the data re skid resistance off hand.

The the stength of pavements - basecourse provides the strength if thin surfacing like chipseal or <40mm of hotmix. Can stabilise the crap subgrade you guys have upnorth to help if structural pavement not justified. Structural (notice the name) hotmix or concrete is generally over 100mm. Apart from an airport and some very limited locations in auckland find me a site with 100 or greater of hotmix in nz.

What happend to works anyway. Down here in canterbury here are ambny instances of where they can build a chipseal road for shit. Use to do a good job but not anymore.

R

[idleidolidyll]

the honest answer to why NZ uses chipseal rather than other surfaces has nothing to do with friction.
it's about money, particularly in rural areas. gravel is relatively plentiful and cheap in NZ and often a crusher can easily be set up near a river bed where the material is plentiful.
the road designers do not pay much attention to the damage done to motorcyclists skidding along their chipseal roads nor to the highly elevated wear rates of tyres. Our costs are hardly thier issue, their costs define their ability to win tenders.

but we digress, the issue is not just one of current road works and the use of chipseal. As previously mentioned, it is about seemingly permanent potholes, shiny surfaces, truck damage, armco barriers and much more.
NZ roads are not designed or maintained with motorcyclists in mind.

[idleidolidyll]

Done have the data re skid resistance off hand.

The the stength of pavements - basecourse provides the strength if thin surfacing like chipseal or <40mm of hotmix. Can stabilise the crap subgrade you guys have upnorth to help if structural pavement not justified. Structural (notice the name) hotmix or concrete is generally over 100mm. Apart from an airport and some very limited locations in auckland find me a site with 100 or greater of hotmix in nz.

What happend to works anyway. Down here in canterbury here are ambny instances of where they can build a chipseal road for shit. Use to do a good job but not anymore.

R

why thanks for underlining my point that it's about cost and that motorcyclists safety doesn't enter the equation cooneyr

[cooneyr]

but we digress, the issue is not just one of current road works and the use of chipseal. As previously mentioned, it is about seemingly permanent potholes, shiny surfaces, truck damage, armco barriers and much more.
NZ roads are not designed or maintained with motorcyclists in mind.

You might as well ask why is helen in power. You are entering the relm of policies and politics which we could debate all day, I however have work to do building/validating a transportation model - been nabbed.

Read this thread for more arguments/discussions.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=29772

R

[idleidolidyll]

Done have the data re skid resistance off hand.

The the stength of pavements - basecourse provides the strength if thin surfacing like chipseal or <40mm of hotmix. Can stabilise the crap subgrade you guys have upnorth to help if structural pavement not justified. Structural (notice the name) hotmix or concrete is generally over 100mm. Apart from an airport and some very limited locations in auckland find me a site with 100 or greater of hotmix in nz.

What happend to works anyway. Down here in canterbury here are ambny instances of where they can build a chipseal road for shit. Use to do a good job but not anymore.

R

BTW cooneyr, I'm from Makarewa in Southland and a long time ex resident of Chch by way of Avonside, Lyttelton and Corsair Bay. Indeed a decade at least of my construction employment was in your region and Chch CC, FH, Works Corp etc plus the hire companies were all my best customers. I worked orignally for Compacting Equipment Ltd opposite Wigram. The company is now no more but you should define their business forte from the company name. We sold Sakai, BlawNox, Takeuchi, TCM etc

and thanks for underlining my point that it's about cost and that motorcyclists safety doesn't enter the equation mr cooneyr

it's been pleasant discussing this with you all and all opinions are appreciated.
i'll take action my way and of course you are free to join me or not

[idleidolidyll]

You might as well ask why is helen in power. You are entering the relm of policies and politics which we could debate all day, I however have work to do building/validating a transportation model - been nabbed.

Read this thread for more arguments/discussions.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ad.php?t=29772

R

poloicies and politics are EXACTLY the issue Mr CooneyR and that is the point being made.
Unless we bring this issue to the attention of the decision makers, nothing will ever be done; they rely on Kiwis to sit on their arses and whine but not to actually do anything.

[scumdog]

poloicies and politics are EXACTLY the issue Mr CooneyR and that is the point being made.
Unless we bring this issue to the attention of the decision makers, nothing will ever be done; they rely on Kiwis to sit on their arses and whine but not to actually do anything.

We motorcyclists don't have the numbers or political clout to make any difference, grin and bear it.