Gunshop employee charged

[Swoop]

Is anyone else here aware of just how recently pistols have become available to competitive target shooters in NZ? We're talking late '80s. Even olympic-style .22 pistol shooting only started to come out of the woodwork in the late '70s.

You almost got it right.
http://www.pistolnz.org.nz/default.asp

[davereid]

Yep, Bank Tellers (amongst others) always had a handgun, right up to the early 70s.

4 years ago, my buddy was standing in a Levin Bar (Sels Place) when he had a handgun shoved in his face while the till was emptied.

And I just googled "New Zealand Handgun" and got :

A bus passenger yesterday placed herself in front of a man pointing what appeared to be a pistol at the back of a child's head on a central city route. Anne Baker, 32, had just boarded the Link bus in Queen St when the man sitting next to her pulled out a black and silver handgun...
Friday 27, January 2006

Police are hunting for a man who walked into a south Auckland pub this morning and threatened staff with a handgun. The incident happened at a pub on Charles St, Papatoetoe at about 10.30am. Terrified staff locked themselves in an adjoining office and called police. Inspector...
Published: Friday 17, February 2006 12:20.00 PM

Hamilton police were last night hunting a man who leapt from a car and robbed a guard at gunpoint, and Auckland police were searching for a man who stormed a pub in Papatoetoe. Police said they were astounded at the brazen nature of the Hamilton robbery, which happened as a Rapid...
Published: Saturday 18, February 2006 5:00.00 AM

The alleged killer of a Whangarei teenager has evaded an intensive police manhunt after crashing a stolen car off a remote road east of Russell. Police found the stolen blue BMW coupe Nathan Fenton was driving 30m down a bank on a heavily forested inland scenic route - known locally...
Published: Thursday 07, September 2006 5:00.00 AM

Tuesday November 14, 2006
By Elizabeth Binning
A secret witness has described watching alleged hitman Wan Yee Chow load a pistol and don black clothing before shooting dead Top Karaoke Bar owner Tam Yam Ah.

Armed pair raid housie evening
9.00am Friday October 27, 2006
Two armed men held up a housie evening in Mangere last night.
More than 100 people were in the community hall in Waokauri Place soon after 9pm when one of the men pointed a handgun at a member of the staff and demanded the money till.

Liquor store raid in Mt Albert
Four people were tied up and locked in the back of a liquor store in Mt Albert during an aggravated robbery yesterday. Three men, including one with a handgun, entered Local Liquor on the corner of New North Rd and Woodward Rd just before 5pm. A staff member and three customers...
Published: Wednesday 18, May 2005 5:00.00 AM

I'm not suggesting this is an accurate summary of facts - but I am suggesting that handguns are available easily to crims.

[jrandom]

... new junior... pistol... once a year, fire the pistol 6 times... if the need arose he was to use the pistol... "nanny state" decided that we couldnt be trusted to look after ourselves and of course protect the rights of the crims.

You're arguing against yourself here. Giving that pistol to the kid made things worse, not better.

Habitual shooters tend to think of firearms as straightforward, but I watched a complete neophyte shoot a plain old .22 bolt-action rifle the other week. It was a bit frightening to see her white knuckles, the wild spray of bullets around the target, and the random swinging of the muzzle in all directions.

Opening up the availability of firearms for self-defence will result in people like that junior bank employee and my shooting buddy's ditzy girlfriend picking one up and using it in a high-stress situation.

Training and licencing would be essential.

[jrandom]

I am suggesting that handguns are available easily to crims.

I'd be willing to bet that every one of those 'handguns', bar the one used by the Asian gang assassin, was an AirSoft replica or a cut-down rifle or shotgun.

It's impossible to tell the difference between a .22LR SIG and a CO2-powered replica. It's still very difficult to tell the difference between one in a fullbore caliber and the toy unless you're staring at the muzzle in a state less than panic.

And bear in mind that that gang hitman probably wouldn't have had a pistol without significant logistical support from overseas.

My points regarding handguns in NZ still stand.

[jrandom]

You almost got it right.

Close enough...

I should have googled before posting.

[davereid]

Yeah you are possibly right about a lot of guns being sawed off rifles or shottys - I know the one my buddy got pointed at him was a cut down Ruger 10/22.

We can't assess the others, as you say its very difficult to tell if a handgun is real or not until it goes pop.

[jrandom]

Yeah you are possibly right about a lot of guns being sawed off rifles or shottys - I know the one my buddy got pointed at him was a cut down Ruger 10/22.

Yup.

Cut-down long guns are easier to transport and conceal, but they still aren't particularly useful as 'carry' weapons, even when compared to a full-size service sidearm.

Like I posted earlier, I turned a single-shot 12-gauge into a 380mm-long 'pistol' a wee while back, just for shits and giggles. The shotgun was a fully fold-back design. I could fit what was left of it, folded, in a very large coat pocket, but it still weighed a ton and was unshootable for all practical purposes. (Although I got a friend to stand and cover me with it, and it was fucking SCARY. I can see why sawn-offs are so popular for robberies.)

So long as crims still have to plan on transporting a (modified) long gun to the scene of a crime, carrying out the armed robbery or whatever, then getting away and re-stashing the weapon, we're spared the casual violence amongst the criminal classes that real pistols are so handy for.

[FilthyLuka]

I turned a single-shot 12-gauge into a 380mm-long 'pistol' a wee while back, just for shits and giggles.

see, i woulda used a .410 and put solid slugs in it myself...

[jrandom]

see, i woulda used a .410 and put solid slugs in it myself...

There was no .410 going for < $150 on TardMe that week.

[jrandom]

Here you go, folks. Some news from three days ago that I ran into while searching for Roger Ebert's page. Welcome to the United States of America.

Two points:

1. That couldn't have been done with a long gun; the shooter would never have made it into the building.

2. The guy sounds like a total deadbeat. If he'd had to meet NZ's requirements for pistol ownership, he would never have had access to one. Realistically, no other weapon would have enabled that crime.

Make up some bullshit right of citizens to bear arms, and that's what you get.

[geoffm]

Here you go, folks. Some news from three days ago that I ran into while searching for Roger Ebert's page. Welcome to the United States of America.

Two points:

1. That couldn't have been done with a long gun; the shooter would never have made it into the building.

2. The guy sounds like a total deadbeat. If he'd had to meet NZ's requirements for pistol ownership, he would never have had access to one. Realistically, no other weapon would have enabled that crime.

Make up some bullshit right of citizens to bear arms, and that's what you get.

Pump action shotgun with folding stock, carried either in a duffle bag or under a long coat. 7-8 shots with buckshot is a damn sight more deadly than a 38 revolver.
You do realise of course that handguns have been illegal in Chicago since 1968? It is still a regualr for "murder capital of the US" despite that. Somehow, I don't think the laws bothered this particular fruitcake, and didn't slow him down at all.
Geoff

[jrandom]

Pump action shotgun with folding stock, carried either in a duffle bag or under a long coat. 7-8 shots with buckshot is a damn sight more deadly than a 38 revolver.

You really think that building wouldn't have had a security guard insisting on checking bags? I'm not saying it'd definitely be the case, but it'd be likely.

You do realise of course that handguns have been illegal in Chicago since 1968?

Doesn't help much when an out-of-state road trip is all that's necessary for one to fill an arbitrary firearms shopping list.

People don't seem to find that law hard to flout; bans don't work unless they actually result in restricted supply.

Somehow, I don't think the laws bothered this particular fruitcake

I'm not suggesting that making something illegal stops people from doing it; I'm suggesting that the idea of restricting supply is valid, so long as the horse hasn't already bolted.

[Swoop]

From this mornings Harold.
Another (mis)use of a handgun?

Auckland policeman in court after firing at suspect

Tuesday December 12, 2006
By Elizabeth Binning


A policeman has gone on trial after firing his gun in a swoop on a man subject to a three-month hunt.

Constable Allan Windrum is charged with one count of carelessly using a Glock pistol while trying to arrest fugitive Zeke Lowe two years ago.

The Auckland officer was knocked to the ground as Lowe - believed to be using methamphetamine and considered to be armed and dangerous - tried to escape in a car. Windrum fired a shot that went through the rear window of the car.

No one was hit or injured and Lowe was eventually pepper-sprayed and then arrested with the help of two other officers.

After the incident, Windrum told his superiors he had acted in self-defence. But during the opening of his trial at the Auckland District Court yesterday, Crown prosecutor Emma Priest told the jury the policeman was reckless.

"The Crown says he should not have fired his gun at all."

The court heard how Windrum was a constable with the Special Tactics Unit and was staking out a hotel in Remuera where Lowe was staying on June 16, 2004.

The suspect, who had been on the run for nearly three months, was believed to be using methamphetamine and in possession of a rifle that had been stolen in a burglary a month earlier.

During the stakeout, police became suspicious of a car as it left the hotel and pulled it over. The female driver got out, but Lowe, who was hiding in the back, climbed into the driver's seat and tried to get the car moving.

Ms Priest said Windrum approached the open driver's door and pointed his gun at Lowe, telling him he was under arrest.

Another policeman got into the passenger seat and tried to put Lowe into a headlock to prevent him from driving away.

As they struggled, the car moved back and forward, hitting two other cars, and knocking Windrum to the ground. As the constable fell, his gun accidentally went off but no one was injured.

Ms Priest said the officer got up but was knocked down for a second time. When he stood up again, he fired a shot through the back window of the car.

At the station, Lowe reported the shooting to his supervisor, saying the first shot was an accidental discharge caused when he was knocked over. The second shot was self-defence.

It was also to prevent Lowe from getting away as he was dangerous and could place other police or members of the public at risk if he escaped.

Windrum's lawyer, Richard Earwaker, told the jury that some of the facts - such as whether the second officer was actually in the car at the time of the shooting - were a matter of dispute.

The fact that the gun was fired was not challenged. The question for the jury would be whether Windrum, who attended court in his uniform, was actually reckless in pulling the trigger.

The trial, before Judge Michael Lance QC, is expected to last seven days.

[jrandom]

Another (mis)use of a handgun?

Sounds like it. Shooting through the back window of someone's car as they speed away isn't quite 'self defence'.

[Ixion]

Perhaps not. But taking out a (believed to be) armed and dangerous criminal in the process of escaping sounds like a reasonable use of police fire power to me. I see no problem with the cops using a gun in such circumstances.