Graeme William Burton in custody

**James Deuce** · 7th January 2007, 22:21

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3921062a10.html

Uniforms got him and they opened up from 20-25m away. That is some fine shooting.

Poor bugger on the quad bike.

FWIW, Hitcher is on the money. Yes candor there are people who could be regarded as sociopaths, but unlike you I won't condemn the bloke who got jailed at 17 for stealing milk money to a life not worth living or a hangman's noose. A big chunk of NZ's prison system involves non-violent people who may have been caught out doing something you yourself have done.

Parole board's operate under a set of strictures the same way the courts do. It isn't a case of, "aww, he looks nice today, let's let him out", at all. The parole board may have wanted to keep him in, but are ultimately limited by the original sentence. The judge is also limited by law in regard to the sentence that he could have dished out. At the time this loony went down, there were no minimum non-parole periods available to judges.

**Ixion** · 7th January 2007, 22:27

Originally Posted by Hitcher

You're starting to sound like that seething redneck spokesperson from the "Sensible Sentencing Trust". I have little respect for people like Mr McVicar who have nothing constructive to add to the debate apart from tired rhetoric like "hanging's too good for them" or "lock them up and throw away the key". If only life was so black and white.

No. I am simply a Benthamite.

If there is any function that someone may fufill to add worth or value to society, if their presence in society , overall, is a contribution, well and good. Otherwise, I see no reason why their continued existence should be justified. If they are worthless (and I would challenge anyone to argue that Mr Burton was not), but they can remove themselves from society by going somewhere else, well and good. They are gone, society is better for their absence . If they will not remove themselves , then they should be removed. If no other country will take them on, then they need to be eliminated.

No person has any inherent right to existence. We justify our place in society by the contirbution we make to it.

If a person or animal is plagued by parasites , we use drugs to kill the parasites. I see no reason why those who are parasites on society should not be treated in the same way.

I challenge you to provide one good, objective reason why Mr Burton should remain in our society.

**Ixion** · 7th January 2007, 22:31

Originally Posted by Jim2

Yes candor there are people who could be regarded as sociopaths, but unlike you I won't condemn the bloke who got jailed at 17 for stealing milk money to a life not worth living or a hangman's noose.,,

That sounds like the emotive crap about people in Victorian England being hung for stealing a loaf of bread (never happened).

Can you supply ANY reference to a 17 year old (or any age for that matter) being sent to gaol , let alone hung, for stealing milk money.

**candor** · 7th January 2007, 23:01

"unlike you I won't condemn the bloke who got jailed at 17 for stealing milk money to a life not worth living or a hangman's noose. A big chunk of NZ's prison system involves non-violent people who may have been caught out doing something you yourself have done".

Not sure where u got that idea I'd string up milk money takers Jim. I got a whole post there saying that jails are full of the wrong people (petty crims) while the dangerous ones too often are 'given a chance'. Nor would I string up sociopaths - just keep them seperate and comfortable, for all our safety is good

. Have worked with too many of them in my job to be happy about sharing the outside world with them.

This a**hole and several others lately who went on rampages were from all appearances both mad and bad. Any fool with a bunch of reports shoulda seen that it was
A) best not release if at all possible (but as you say Burton went in when conditions were different it seems)
B) release only under very close supervision and pull back in at any bad sign
I hope Burton has killed this time in a way that the special class of murder applies... hmm - includes I think "vulnerable people, cop killing, extreme cruelty" and a few more categories. And earns a long stay.

Ok seems I'm picking fights but here goes again. Ixion, tho I agree with the jist of your take on things I think the guys are right that some people are locked up who never should be. Once a workmate of mine with no criminal record at near 30 yrs of age did something a little silly.

He was on medication for a mental illness and fine on it. But a bit weird off (obviously). He missed his medicine for a week. Went a bit funny. Impulsively stole a bottle of cheap 5$ wine - chardon. A Maori. In chch years ago. From our workplace several were allowed to go to court to support and as we had not much doing.

What a shock.

His first offense (and last) - 6 weeks jail.

I think he was out in half was the deal back then. It was insane. And he got no medicine in there so climbed the walls - plus got a hard time. Being gay - lucky he survived (just). The system sux, its all back to front with things valued over people.

**candor** · 7th January 2007, 23:08

"unlike you I won't condemn the bloke who got jailed at 17 for stealing milk money to a life not worth living or a hangman's noose. A big chunk of NZ's prison system involves non-violent people who may have been caught out doing something you yourself have done".

Not sure where u got that idea I'd string up milk money takers Jim. I got a whole post there saying that jails are full of the wrong people (petty crims) while the dangerous ones too often are 'given a chance'. Nor would I string up sociopaths - just keep them seperate and comfortable, for all our safety is good

. Have worked with too many of them in my job to be happy about sharing the outside world with them.

This a**hole and several others lately who went on rampages were from all appearances both mad and bad. Any fool with a bunch of reports shoulda seen that it was
A) best not release if at all possible (but as you say Burton went in when conditions were different it seems)
B) release only under very close supervision and pull back in at any bad sign
I hope Burton has killed this time in a way that the special class of murder applies... hmm - includes I think "vulnerable people, cop killing, extreme cruelty" and a few more categories. And earns a long stay.

Ok seems I'm picking fights but here goes again. Ixion, tho I agree with the jist of your take on things I think the guys are right that some people are locked up who never should be. Once a workmate of mine with no criminal record at near 3 yrs of age did something a little silly.

He was on medication for a mental illness and fine on it. But a bit weird off (obviously). He missed his medicine for a week. Went a bit funny. Impulsively stole a bottle of red wine. A Maori. In chch years ago. From our workplace several were allowed to go to court to support and as we had not much doing.

What a shock.

His first offense (and last) - 6 weeks jail.

I think he was out in half was the deal back then. It was insane. And he got no medicine in there so climbed the walls - plus got a hard time. Being gay - lucky he survived (just). The system sux, its all back to front with things valued over people.

**Ixion** · 7th January 2007, 23:10

Originally Posted by candor

,,
Ok seems I'm picking fights but here goes again. Ixion, tho I agree with the jist of your take on things I think the guys are right that some people are locked up who never should be. Once a workmate of mine with no criminal record at near 30 yrs of age did something a little silly.

,,

Oh, I quite agree. Once again, my test is the overall utility of the person. Someone who is 30 years old, and holding down a job, has almost certainy made a significant positive contribution to society already. And the circumstances would sound such that it would be pointless and counterproductive to remove him from it (whether by imprisonment or otherwise). Moreover the cause of the offending is apparent and very readily remedied, after which a further future contribution may be expected.

One could hardly call such a person worthless. Social utility would argue that the best benefit from society is had by taking no action over the immediate offence (apart from restitution to the owner), and ensuring that the person concerned takes his medication in future.

But people like Mr Burton are quite another matter.

**pixc** · 7th January 2007, 23:27

Originally Posted by Ixion

I challenge you to provide one good, objective reason why Mr Burton should remain in our society.

Ive said this before. He is of use to our society as a guinea pig. First you mark him. An identifier. Maybe a tattoo on forehead or even take his nose off. Then you put him and others like him onto an island prison/lab. Then you give him a disease and test cures on him. He has lost his right to play with the rest of our society.

**elle-f** · 8th January 2007, 06:17

i agree, he has lost his right to play with the rest of society but he also lost that the last time as well.

**Dafe** · 8th January 2007, 06:43

I wish we had a Death Row..........

That would save this Government enough money to at least introduce another labour anti-discipline policy - Maybe no raising your voice at children.

Or maybe the jails need Saunas units installed to complement their recent underfloor heating installations.

This country needs a mercenary, I recommend Darkman!

**riffer** · 8th January 2007, 07:04

Originally Posted by pixc

Ive said this before. He is of use to our society as a guinea pig. First you mark him. An identifier. Maybe a tattoo on forehead or even take his nose off. Then you put him and others like him onto an island prison/lab. Then you give him a disease and test cures on him. He has lost his right to play with the rest of our society.

What a shame. He lost his leg. Is that enough for you?

**Finn** · 8th January 2007, 07:05

A change of Government would be a good start. Then bring in the electric chair... in schools. "Sorry Mrs Burton, little Graeme won't be coming home from school today."

**Lou Girardin** · 8th January 2007, 07:10

This may shock some, but having read a report on the cops actions who shot Burton, I think they should be honoured for their courage.
it seems they initially backed off when confronted by him, but when they considered the danger if he'd got hold of their rifle/s from their car, they decided to confront him and prevent further risk to the public. Very brave guys to face a shotgun while armed with pistols.

**imdying** · 8th January 2007, 08:18

Oooooh, I hope they chopped that pricks leg off because they could, or because they couldn't be bothered trying to save him, or because they thought he was a piece of shit getting what he deserved, instead of because of some vital medical reason.

Nothing would make me happier right now than knowing that piece of crap is crippled purely because people know how much of a waste of space he his and wanted to royally fuck his life up, and not because it had to be done.

I'm glad they didn't shoot him in the head, now he has a lifetime of suffering as a man in wheelchair to look forward too. Only by chopping his opposite arm off could it get any better.

**pixc** · 8th January 2007, 08:31

Originally Posted by riffer

What a shame. He lost his leg. Is that enough for you?

no. It prolly cost $20000 to do the job. Waste of our money

**sAsLEX** · 8th January 2007, 08:40

Originally Posted by Lou Girardin

This may shock some, but having read a report on the cops actions who shot Burton, I think they should be honoured for their courage.
it seems they initially backed off when confronted by him, but when they considered the danger if he'd got hold of their rifle/s from their car, they decided to confront him and prevent further risk to the public. Very brave guys to face a shotgun while armed with pistols.

Care to share the report?

Why though did they back off in the first place it has to be asked? They where going after a armed and dangerous criminal and decided after retreating that he was dangerous?And why did they only have their pistols and not the bushmasters they had in the car?

-someone has to play the devils advocate.

Originally Posted by Jim2

http://www.stuff.co.nz/3921062a10.html

Uniforms got him and they opened up from 20-25m away. That is some fine shooting.

Report said the were general duties, how often do they get to "play" with weapons? Not often is my guess.