Exclusion of Motards from F1, F2 & F3: Good or bad?

[Goblin]

... I like to think I flow nicley to the apex and flow just as sweet out the other side...

Each to their own an all that eh.

[peique]

I think it's a matter of safety. I'm not a racer but, I can understand how dangerous it may be to have a large number of motards mixed with road bikes. If motards are so popular, then they do deserve to have their own class and should stick with it. Anyhow, it's not like the changes can't be undone next season, is it?

[dangerous]

Each to their own an all that eh.

Cant answer that one properly can you?

Ok answer this... my post classic bike the Katana is alagible to race in F2, its over 1/4 a ton and has a fraction of power compaired to the real F2 bikes, it is a shocker in the handling depot... now what if all my post classic mates joined me in a F2 race, Ill tell ya what we would fuck it up for the F2 guys by blocking them in and holding them up... now I can put the bucket into F3... thats you I take it? now a full feild of us buckets would screw it up for you, and we would clean up in the corners.

But we dont go in those classes cos we have our own class, 99% like it like that.
And as far as lines go and your comment... I take a different line on the Kat to the bucket and I take as bigger diferent line on the Guzzi to the bucket.

[gav]

So what class where you in when you were racing against Motards then? Were you on your bucket or Kat?
And wouldnt the Kat be F1 not F2?

[idleidolidyll]

Hell no... I like to think I flow nicley to the apex and flow just as sweet out the other side, locking the rear up and sliding it out is not what I call flowing.

and if that is all you do every lap you've probably never won a race and may never do so.
If you've watched closely guys like Chrisa Haldane etc often have the rear wheel in the air under braking and slide out under power. They spend less time cranked over and more time on the throttle.

in a Sound of Thunder meeting in the 90's a mate loaned me his Ducati F1 to race. I'd never raced one before and discovered in practice that quite a few of the other bikes were much faster down the straights; particularly those of Chris Sayle and Fitzy from Thunderbike (Sayle had won every race in the first two meetings of the series but I hadn't had the free time to enter due to business comittments).
If I'd used the same lines as them I was fucked even before I started so I deliberately used different lines that fucked THEM up instead of the reverse. For instance, I took a really tight line into the 1st corner at Manfield and spun up the back wheel coming out. That meant I had outbraked them and then crossed their intended line going sideways. They had no option but to back off a little. I did the same at the hairpin.
Eventually I got enough of a lead in ther infield to overcome their speed advantage down the straights and won all 3 races in that class.
I used the same tactics in the Superstock race and on the 750 vs the bigger bikes managed to bag 3rd and 4th.

Again the point being that if you ALWAYS take the same lines you're easy prey for smarter riders.
That's why motards are so fast on tight tracks: they can take almost any line and can respond to a challenge far better than a 125 which is pretty much screwed if their cornering speed is balked by the kind of tactics I used as above. it's racing and unless you can take the lead on the first lap and hold it to the win, you'll always be vulnerable to guys who can take different lines.

[idleidolidyll]

Cant answer that one properly can you?

Ok answer this... my post classic bike the Katana is alagible to race in F2, its over 1/4 a ton and has a fraction of power compaired to the real F2 bikes, it is a shocker in the handling depot... now what if all my post classic mates joined me in a F2 race, Ill tell ya what we would fuck it up for the F2 guys by blocking them in and holding them up... now I can put the bucket into F3... thats you I take it? now a full feild of us buckets would screw it up for you, and we would clean up in the corners.

So what? That's racing. Racing is NOT about taking the fastest line every time through corners unless you are in the front and have a gap. Unless you use tactics that block riders behind, you;re likely to be passed. Unless you use lines that are different to the guy in front, you're unlikely to get past.

[idleidolidyll]

now a full feild of us buckets would screw it up for you, and we would clean up in the corners.

WRONG, a bucket has to take a fast line through corners to keep its speed up and any F2 rider worth a damn could fuck YOU up in a second by taking a line that killed your corner speed. Hell, they could do it just by intentionally slowing down in front of you then accelerating away. Smart racers understand ALL the options.
The REAL problem would be that buckets would be moving chicanes on the straights

As I suggested earlier in this thread: rather than punishing motard riders for making a smart choice, a system where the slowest bikes are relegated to a B class after the first race or lap timed practice sessions is much smarter.

[Rashika]

WRONG, a bucket has to take a fast line through corners to keep its speed up and any F2 rider worth a damn could fuck YOU up in a second by taking a line that killed your corner speed. Hell, they could do it just by intentionally slowing down in front of you then accelerating away. Smart racers understand ALL the options.
The REAL problem would be that buckets would be moving chicanes on the straights

but would it make it very much fun for you to be constantly having to avoid these riders, and not able to race your counterparts?
The point that is trying to made is that tho 'technically' they can race in these classes...and would probably cause havoc for those riders the class is more designed for... generally buckets, post classic etc DONT race in those classes as they HAVE THEIR OWN class. Just like clubmans is for any club member to go in.

[Rashika]

As I suggested earlier in this thread: rather than punishing motard riders for making a smart choice, a system where the slowest bikes are relegated to a B class after the first race or lap timed practice sessions is much smarter.

a lot of club days dont have a bclass... so that cant be done

[idleidolidyll]

but would it make it very much fun for you to be constantly having to avoid these riders, and not able to race your counterparts?
The point that is trying to made is that tho 'technically' they can race in these classes...and would probably cause havoc for those riders the class is more designed for... generally buckets, post classic etc DONT race in those classes as they HAVE THEIR OWN class. Just like clubmans is for any club member to go in.

Wouldn't bother me in the least; just more riders to pass.

Sometimes at a club race at Ruapuna I'd wait until all the bikes were past the first corner before I'd even leave the start line just so I could have fun carving them up.

[idleidolidyll]

a lot of club days dont have a bclass... so that cant be done

Club days provide MORE reason to allow all formats of bikes into a race. It gives you a chance to learn what lines to take in an environment where winning isn't as important

[Ixion]

Y'know, this whole argument is starting to sound exactly like the arguments about two strokes in racing, 40 years ago.

When MZ , and then Suzuki and Yamaha began challenging, then cleaning up races on their two strokes, there was a deal of grumbling from the riders of the older Norton, MV, Gilera, Moto Guzzi, Honda machines which had dominated racing in the 50s and early 60s. The two strokes took different lines, they braked differently, they were this and that.

The real problem was that the two stroke was simply too good, the four stroke coudn't compete. In the end, as we know, the two stroke was effectively banned from racing.Cos that was the ony way that four strokes could keep racing .Whether that was a good decision or not is always going to be debateable.

Can't help thinking that if motards are slower than conventional racers, then where's the problem (for the latter). If motards are faster, well is winning by changing the rule book really sporting?

EDIT. about the "foot down" controversy. In a slightly later era, some riders started sticking their knees out in corners and hanging off their bikes , instead of keeping their knees against the tank like the older riders. Wonder what would have happened if there had been a rule made at the time saying that "bums must be kept on seats, and none of this dangerous knee down stuff". ?

[Goblin]

Cant answer that one properly can you?

Ok answer this...

But we dont go in those classes cos we have our own class, 99% like it like that.
And as far as lines go and your comment... I take a different line on the Kat to the bucket and I take as bigger diferent line on the Guzzi to the bucket.

Like I said...each to their own. I take whatever lines feel right at the time, on the day. I thoroughly enjoyed racing with the motards and found it a great experience to battle with them, pass them, try to not let them get passed me again. Some did....some didn't. Was the same at the trackdays Ive done. Then I hear a few people moaning that the Motards fucked their lines up. Well Harden the fuck up! That's what racing is all about! If you're intimidated by the bigger bars, tallers bikes, foot out and all the rest of it then maybe you dont have what it takes to be a good racer.

[scott411]

Then I hear a few people moaning that the Motards fucked their lines up. Well Harden the fuck up! That's what racing is all about! If you're intimidated by the bigger bars, tallers bikes, foot out and all the rest of it then maybe you dont have what it takes to be a good racer.

clap clap clap clap, thank god someone said this, thank you,

if you faster than a person pass them, use your bike to its advantage, if its faster in a straight line smoke him and make sure you make him go around the outside in the next corner

[Denniso]

this thread seem's to have two oppinions that are poles appart, on one hand motards and on the other , people who are upset coz they can't beat them. Yes I'm biased I race a motard, but almost all my racing in the past has been on road bikes and yes I have raced against motards they are easy to get by if you care to take the time to find there weakness's. As for different lines 80% of F3 bikes use 2.5 m of track , 80 % of motards use only 1m of track. F3 bikes are so unpredictable it's hard to belive they stay on the track . Cross entering ; when I raced F3 I would normally also enter F1&2 cool more track time. Someone also said the were sick of being outbraked by motards , my RS 125 out braked any motard I found , as for sliding into corners I did more of that on my ZXR 400 & GSXR 1100. Foot out , in the way ,run it over if you can get close enough. Kick out motards? We should also kick out SV's (too fast too new) , (125 gp bikes too fast, brakes are too good) Ducati Supermono Too fast too expensive) Tigcraft 450 (too fast too innovative) Hell lets pick a average midpack rider and ban anybody that beats them. This is racing not flower aranging if you can't beat someone on the track push and learn how to then move on to the next faster rider. THE GREATEST ACHIEVEMENTS ARE FOUND OUTSIDE OUR COMFORT ZONE.