*Warning* Maori sovereignty thread *Warning*

[The_Dover]

You'll get nowhere by JUST treating the physical manifestations, in many cases that will just increase health epidemics eg attention seekers. The history of nursing is long but if you're interested...

Witches.... politically active, used range of potions and counselling
Victorian prostitutes (took rich dying old men home)...
Florence Nightingale (made what the hookers did respectable tho had trouble recruiting 'nice girls' to do such stigmatised work initially)... very socially and politically active like advocated for hygeine / ventilated facilities, health education and health promotion
Nurse Maude - took nursing here in NZ out of the hospital on her bicycle
Diabetes nurses - educate about diet eg in fat communities
Psyc nurses - work on changing cultural beliefs that contribute to suicide and removing stigma so patients will not suffer sticks and stones atop illness which can exacerbate illness eg cause them not to take medicine, back to hosp!
Nurse prescribers - see selves as regaining the prescribing role Drs stole from them in Victorian era
Voluntary nurses abroad - may advocate to effect the politics making people starve or not get medicines if they are a prime cause of illness etc

As I hope you see to talk of nurses as mere wound dressers is very narrow - caregivers can do that, nurses are expected to have a lot more nous and ability to see what needs fixin' (in whatever area) to get the result.

Re 'cultural safety' comment - yes,its a trade off. But one needed less and less as those who wanted it (Maori) have taken over their own services now making all the focus on that in our training somewhat wasted - it was back then identified as transitional anyway. Despite how extreme it was the general principles have now beeen adopted by nursing education courses all over the world. The main promoter of it Irahapeti Ramsden died of cancer a lil while ago. Deano - tell your sociology lecturer to tell that to rellys of patients killed by culturally unsafe staff please - example; a very old gran in hospital stopped eating and talking (whakama state) which caused her death. It was eventually established that a full urine pottle had been placed momentarily on her food table. That happening and then not getting resolved properly is why she died. For an old traditional Maori this event was somewhat akin to rape.

just do the bed pan and shut your yap florence.

[candor]

"just do the bed pan and shut your yap florence". Its good to be so quotable. Oooooooooohhhhhh, I wondered when the real Dover was making a comeback - with that amount of cheek in him 'is recordings must be just fine.
The last person who tried snappy domination like that was a springable queen

[Macktheknife]

Back on topic folks, this thread is about so called Maori sovereignty claims.

[MSTRS:Me]

... the "pakeha system doesn't work for Maoris". Does so too. Just that when they do, non-one takes notice of their being Maori. Because they're just ordinary...

Of course it doesn't. Here. Go to Aussie and what do you find? Hardworking, successful individuals who have some Maori ancestry.
Maori 'sovereignty' is pie-in-the-sky, unrealistic, divisive.
It's time that pollies stopped vote-buying politics that empower these activists.
Bring on the Republic and a Bill of Rights, based on citizenship, not ancestry.

[mstriumph]

but let everyone fly a flag too. all nations including the KB flag.

im a kiwi. not a european,or maori. but i respect both cultures. history has happened.

and i'm an adopted kiwi .......... with ancestry sooooo mixed that, if you name it, i've probably got some

to try and separate 'me' into my component parts is futile, pointless and faaaaaaar too self-involved [read 'head up own arse-ish] to be bothered with

I AM what i am, where i am, how i am .... to consider it any other way would be akin to suing for independance for my left kneecap - daft!



psssssssst - do us KiwiBikers HAVE a flag? ..... can we fly it from the bridge? .... can we? huh?? ......can we? perleasssssse????

[RT527]

I respect the treaty....I Treaty you the same as I treaty every one else.....

[Clivoris]

Cool thread. Spinning my head a bit cos it's such a complex issue and I am struggling not to have a fear/anger driven response to some of the posts that I disagree with. So much of what we are debating involves dubious history and facts, differences in personal experience and the vagueries of language. We neeed to talk about this and I don't believe that it's divisive. It is not divisive to disagree, or do something in a different way. That's what makes family, and motorcycling interesting. One of the things I strongly believe, is that most of the people posting here (on the site even), I would probably get on with face to face. Apart from that prick bistard , and I'm definitely stealing Maurice away from the_dover. I hear Maurice wishes he had a bit of Maori in him. The stuff we are talking about here has fuck all relevance to what happens at the coal face. If people are respectful to us, we are respectful to them. This debate is still important though.

I now have the belief that the renaissance in Maori cultural activities stemming from the social upheavals in the 60's / 70's has the potential to be the best thing that ever happened in this country. While 'some' Maori are exploiting the situation for their own personal gain I believe that giving a large part of the population a power base and respect is going to make us all better off. The problem is going to be - where do we stop and where are the boundaries?

I doubt I'm not clever enough to figure that out when presented with an option BUT flying a flag off a bridge seems a pretty small thing. I believe most Maori do see themselves as Kiwis and are proud of it. frankly I'm a little envious of the ethnic background they can tap into while all I have is boofy old motorbikes and... erm.. hang on....

Paul N - Pale - Oily - black handed and proud of it..

I so agree with this.

"The Government's imigration policies are a deliberate attempt to ensure that Maori are not allowed to become more prominent in the ethnic make-up of NZ"

Definitely sounds paranoid, but it got some good media coverage for her eh .

Cultural cringe, much? Would you have us believe that all Maoris were helpness "natives" ? I can tell you that many Maoris in the 19th century (and the 20th) did not "slip into the net of the Pakeha system by default". They grabbed the opportunity for a better life with both hands and went roaring after it. And reckoned they got a damn good deal. No more drafty whare - decent house instead. No more subsistance diet - roast lamb and new potatos instead. Got decent jobs, made heaps of money trading with the gullible white men, sent the kids to school , paid off the mortgage, sent the grandkids to university. There's millions such Kiwis, their ancestors weren't dummies. Nobody exploited them, noone forced them into the "pakeha system". They saw a way of life that was a damn sight better than they had, or that their ancestors had, and they had the good sense and gumption to grab the opportunity.

The Maoris whining today are the losers who want to blame everybody but themselves for their inability to make a go of things. Maoris are perfectly capable of making a decent life for themselves and their kids. They don't need a lot of patronising apologists claiming that theyve been "sucked into the Pakeha system" , and that the "pakeha system doesn't work for Maoris". Does so too. Just that when they do, non-one takes notice of their being Maori. Because they're just ordinary Kiwis, the same as everyone else.

Great truth in there mate. It's the nature of the bell curve that some people will succeed. I'm fortunate enough to come from Ngati Porou where many whanau prioritised education. They could see the writing on the wall. My experience has still been that it is harder to succeed. Others might minimise this but I had to compromise a lot of my values to succeed. No regrets either, but some of my classmates and colleagues had less to compromise because our environment and the ideas we were working with, fit them better. They still had to work bloody hard though.
It's true that if someone works hard enough they will succeed, but it can't be true that we can all succeed. It's a competition and at the pointy end, those with a small edge have a big advantage. I still believe that there were deliberate efforts to push succesful Maori out of enterprises like coastal shipping. It is taking Maori time to get competitive, but it's happening. It's good for all of us.

newflash:

you're not getting your fucking land or kumara back, move with the times.

Can I keep the P lab?

As a University student I am continually fighting to get through to limited entry courses which are restricted in entry to ensure only those capable of performing at a high standard are submitted through, last year this was a B+ average mark......unless you are fortunate enough to have a portion of maori in you in which case you can fall into the 10% of students that are automatically submitted through. One of my friends basically put no effort in and said that he did not need to as he could get through under this entry.
If this is not segregation I dont know what is, not only that but if joe public sought the services of a professional (lawyer, doctor etc...) surely they would want to know that they are seeing someone that worked hard to get there and know what they are doing. not someone that scraped through on 50% passes......
Glad to hear you're getting through. I'm suprised that this is still happening, but I admit to a bias and agreement with this for the reason I outlined above. It is harder for Maori to compete. People that rort this are taking the piss and aren't doing others any favours. He's lucky your still his friend. I don't know what qualification you are working toward but in my trade (mental health) there is evidence that Maori achieve better outcomes when matched with a Maori professional. I didn't get in under a quota but the idea has appeal for me.

Just for the sake of argument A treaty is an agreement between two sovereign states, The Treaty of Waitaingi was between the English and the Maori, however....at the time (1840's) there was no form of national self government amongst Maori, or complete independence, it was many tribes fighting amongst themselves, a form of government was tried to be established between the Northern Tribes however this fell apart rapidly. thus if the maori did not hold sovereignity over New Zealand the treaty is not valid.............

Conquest by stealth or a kick in the nuts still results in a bunch of people that start 20 metres behind the others in the race for the finish line. The fast guys might compete.

This is a great thread
To add my voice to the mix, i believe the yardstick for an action on this scale should be "is it potentially divisive?" - and, if it is, perhaps it would best to reconsider.

Again. I'm stoked that we are looking at why it's seen as divisive. Spare me from a life devoid of challenge. Often I think our responses to this kind of challenge are reactive because it feels like someone is personally attacking us; or if someone else gets something, we might be missing out; or another person or group getting ahead puts us back. Most Maori don't want revenge. It would be nice to have a greater acceptance of things Maori. This does not mean two sets of laws. We definitely need to be held accountable in the same way for the big stuff, but there has to be some room for flexibility around the edges. Give a little and we ( I really mean we) might get a lot back. That's how relationships work sometimes.

There are heaps of other posts that I wanted to respond to but I've repeated myself enough already. Top marks for starting this Colapop and to those with the courage to express views in a thoughtful way.

[Clivoris]

Shit. I can't help myself can I? A good mate of mine that I use a as a sounding board sent me this.
Quote:
Just a few incoherent idle thoughts...not aimed at anybody by the way... I went to the forum and read it [by the way I think Apartheid does have an h in it].

Like what passes for so much of 'Maori' politics currently I see theatre. Its about protest and literally raising flags to raise issues isnt it ? A more 'real' 'Maori' politics would be looking at issues of power within the Maori world perhaps? [eg women speaking on marae - how does this culture evolve and who sets the agenda]. I suspect that will happen once some of the other stuff is done. Its a bit naive to ask politically active Maori not to 'play the race card' - its the one issue they get traction on.

Theres alot of room for debate and revision of NZ history - hell thats what history is. In a sense the retelling never ends.
I expected worse to be blunt. Theres veiws there that seem a bit er simple but they at least talk about it and try to frame arguments.
Pakeha don't like the feeling - the impression - that we are being accused of something - partly because many of us dont personally feel we have done anything wrong.

I heard somebody on the radio recently say that because she was Maori she had a 'deeper spriritual understanding' of an issue [to do with conservation of endangered birds] and I dont like alot of things about that.

Increasingly I think 'ethnicity' means 'race' in exactly the way that race was meant 100 years ago. Its seen a static category - a type- a nasty generalisation - so rather like the term spirituality I have strong suspicions about how meaningful or useful it is.

dont have any answers ... I am actually quietly optimistic....
From here and now ... well, we are just people and I wish we'd all just let each other live and if that means expressing a culture more strongly than I express mine...go for it.
End quote.
He's expressed some good stuff.

[doc]

I heard somebody on the radio recently say that because she was Maori she had a 'deeper spriritual understanding' of an issue [to do with conservation of endangered birds] and I dont like alot of things about that.

Well if thats the case which race believe they have an entitlement to eat a wood pigeon on their death bed, even if they are endangered ? I'm not hori but they do taste particularly good after a good day tramping thru the scrub with a feed of fried bread and golden syrup as the evening meal, well so I'm told your Honour.

[candor]

Raise the flag. Who cares if settler stock fear the flag. They're not worried about topless chics on Queen Street - which is the least P.C.? And those Maori who don't like it can help Transit take it down. We should have had a Maori only poll on it to gauge the will of the people. My main concern is not divisiveness - its that stunts like this are getting tired and boring and that some people actually still get excited about the Maori 'gettin' uppity'. How about that Kaumatua pulling rank and saying the Titewhais can stay home if they're planning to go ballistic and make people cry on his marae, again.

The answer was "but we've always done this march and bitch session" - if its just an automatic response, then that to me says - yawn - get more creative.

Oh - re the "spiritual superiority", I find some Maori buy into certain (positive strength based) stereotypes about themselves and deficit theories about us, and that claim to greater spirituality is one of the most dehumanising. It is a kind of racism. This gets into dangerous territory whe they use their heavy duty spiritual powers to claim they are so psychic or intuitive they KNOW if someone is telling the truth. Usually the special powers will reveal to them the pakeha is lying even when not true. I do thik Maori can be more intuitive but its not infallible.

[oldrider]

Thread is too long to read completely but to the opening post I have a message for so called Maori separatists and it is the one that they bleat continuously to the rest of New Zealand.

"Honour the bloody treaty yourselves"! Cheers John.

[elle-f]

The problem is, is that Maori are all lumped under the words of a few. I would actually like to see the Maori Flag flying beside the NZ Flag as I see both of them as mine. There are some people here who obviously think they can sit in judgement of ALL Maori because they have met a few and well, if that's how you live your lives - thats all well and fine however, i am pleased I don't live like that and judge all Pakeha on what a few have said. In saying that, I actually don't judge people on colour at all - I judge them as to whether they are assholes or not.

Kia Ora
Elle

[The_Dover]

The problem is, is that Maori are all lumped under the words of a few. I would actually like to see the Maori Flag flying beside the NZ Flag as I see both of them as mine. There are some people here who obviously think they can sit in judgement of ALL Maori because they have met a few and well, if that's how you live your lives - thats all well and fine however, i am pleased I don't live like that and judge all Pakeha on what a few have said. In saying that, I actually don't judge people on colour at all - I judge them as to whether they are assholes or not.

Kia Ora
Elle

what a crock of shit. we don't need to judge you as maori and we don't give a fuck whether you are or not.

you're the wankers that need to differentiate yourself and want special treatment because you are.

we don't need to judge you because your race is irrelevant. to us.

[elle-f]

Dover - i suggest you put that alcohol down or whatever it is you are taking and settle. You seem to have judged me based on what? A differing view to yours? man oh man

As for my race being irrelevant to you - thats an interesting point because for something so irrelevant.......it sure makes you angry huh!

Have a lovely evening
Kia Ora e hoa!
Elle

[Pixie]

There is evidence of early civilisations up to 150,000 years ago in NZ, and most likely Celtic origins.

You do realise,don't you, that modern humans-Homo Sapiens,Sapeins- evolved only 100,000 years ago in southern Africa.Were these "Celts" the Neanderthal Ones?

Sorry 150,000 years would put it around the time of Kang and Kodos' NZ tour