*Warning* Maori sovereignty thread *Warning*

**Ixion** · 3rd February 2007, 22:35

uth du runke or is it delayed concussion?

**Lissa** · 3rd February 2007, 22:38

LOL... but funny enough I can still understand him.. maybe its the 5 burbons Ive had.

**elle-f** · 3rd February 2007, 22:39

bloody hell girl. My worry is that you are putting a *Lissa* nip in it - which is about 10 times more than a normal nip

**Ixion** · 3rd February 2007, 23:13

And may I point out that post #146 seems to have been entirely overlooked.

**Lissa** · 3rd February 2007, 23:19

Originally Posted by Ixion

And may I point out that post #146 seems to have been entirely overlooked.

Thats cause it was yesterday... I thought real men drank Tui??

**Ixion** · 3rd February 2007, 23:22

Real men drink Tui. Yeah, right!

**SixPackBack** · 4th February 2007, 06:07

Looks like the international community disagrees with you lot pissin' and moanin' about our brothers. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/...ectid=10422364
The 'Kumara thing' could be interpreted as entrepreneurial and 'lets give it a shot'. Something normally applauded in our society.

I can feel a song comin' on.

**The_Dover** · 4th February 2007, 07:13

I think the problem is SPB, that most of us do appreciate the place.

We just don't want it ruined by making white folks 2nd class citizens with fewer rights and privileges than those with some tenuous link to the original settlers.

**Colapop** · 4th February 2007, 07:22

Originally Posted by elle33f

Lissa, I think possibly our Colapop was popping a bit too much booze over the past couple of days

I get what he means though because most people there were talking like that at the end HAHA

A little worse for wear this morning but all in all a great party! The sevens demonstrates what the majority of people are about in NZ. Just being happy. Still didn't manage to find you Elle but I did some mad poi swingers on the big screen (around about aisle 30?) Got a ton of great pics a couple of them don't have chicks in them. Probably post them is a sevens thread or summat.... right now need coffee...

**Hitcher** · 4th February 2007, 11:23

Hmmmm. Poi. Lemon meringue poi.

**elle-f** · 4th February 2007, 15:57

Originally Posted by Hitcher

Hmmmm. Poi. Lemon meringue poi.

nuffin loike it!

**Deano** · 4th February 2007, 17:40

Originally Posted by Clivoris

A more 'real' 'Maori' politics would be looking at issues of power within the Maori world perhaps? [eg women speaking on marae - how does this culture evolve and who sets the agenda].

Good point - from one perspective this is perhaps also an example of the difficulty of the theory of 'cultural safety'.

Women compromising their own culture, or even basic civil rights by not being allowed to speak on Marae. It seems a bit outdated and draconian.

Muslim women wearing Burqa's is perhaps another. Don't 'we' in NZ like to see someone's face when talking to them ? (Are they really allowed to wear a Burqa while being photographed for their driver's licence ?

Originally Posted by Clivoris

I heard somebody on the radio recently say that because she was Maori she had a 'deeper spriritual understanding' of an issue [to do with conservation of endangered birds] and I dont like alot of things about that.

Hard to swallow that one - e.g. the extinction Moa ?

There was a Maori girl in my sociology class who once made the statement that only Maori have mana........patriotism/honour etc are not exclusively Maori beliefs, but that was how she felt.

Originally Posted by elle33f

I dunno if I would say that the NZ flag represents us all. I wouldn't want my culture defined by a flag that really has zilch to do with a major part of my culture.

But 'your' ancestors signed the Treaty and became British subjects didn't they ? You can't embrace/accept that part of your history ? Surely it's a two way street ?

**elle-f** · 4th February 2007, 18:02

English is a part of my history but not my culture.........the irish and scots got to the marae first

and not all tribes signed that Treaty. Thats not my issue though. I consider myself a Kiwi and love being it but i also love being Maori and celebrate that as well. I really don't see it as an issue at all. I am kinda freaking out if those that are reading this are on the Waitangi Day Ride to the Wairarapa because they are gonna think I am some sort of Angry Maori Radical! I only came into this thread to give another side to what was being said is all....not to get into any argument because lets face it, we are all adults and have our own views and no matter how much huffing and puffing one does in a forum - on the whole - who is going to change their view? I see both sides but sit on my side because i cannot say YES!! lets all become one culture!! because if we do that - something gets left out and isn't society more interesting with loads of differences and similarities? I cannot go out and say Maori are the BEST!! because if i did that i would be compromising the very thing i value about NZ and my job. Sure, I wouldnt choose another culture to be than Maori because that's what I am - but i would think that most people said that of their own cultures. That doesn't mean that I think we are the best because I would say we stack up very high on statistics where we shouldn't be. But I wouldnt fit into another culture.

Ya know Deano - Talking about the British side - People don't look at me and see me as British. I am Maori, I look Maori (moreso at the 7s

) and I am treated as such by those who think Maori are crap. I might as well embrace my culture and the one that I look like because if I didn't - ell, i wouldn't like to think what would happen. I wouldn't be accepted anywhere.

*heading out to paint self an even lighter shade of white so nobody recognises me on the Wairarapa Ride and maybe somebody will sit with me this time

*

**candor** · 4th February 2007, 19:45

Originally Posted by Deano

Good point - from one perspective this is perhaps also an example of the difficulty of the theory of 'cultural safety'.

Women compromising their own culture, or even basic civil rights by not being allowed to speak on Marae. It seems a bit outdated and draconian.

This statement really just shows that you don't understand the values that underpin the non speaking tradition in some places (not for me to explain either) - FYI I have seen ancient kuia do haka and oratory of the highest order which is largely theatrical including a sort of mime on the odd marae, which do not have that protocol also

But 'your' ancestors signed the Treaty and became British subjects didn't they ? You can't embrace/accept that part of your history?

I would bloody hope not. Maori attained the rights of Brits only - not became British subjects - kind of like us if we had a dual US / Kiwi passport letting us have protection of US laws when in the US. If you go to the relevant article of the treaty version signed in the North and read the Maori version it very specifically states that sovereignty 'tino rangatiratanga' remains with the chiefs within each and every one of their own territories.

There is no two ways about this. Only 'Kawanatanga' or Governorship was ceded and this to Maori meant the role of 'mediator' should any tensions between the peoples arise. A long long thrashing out of the appropriate words occurred in hui as of course Maori weren't prepared to give up sovereignty to a few strays among their great numbers.

They weren't insane for goodness sake. If the English version said something different some weren't worried as they knew they had it straight in the Maori - the one they kept throwing in the Queens face 20 years later. Round when Europeans mystifyingly started acting like they had sovereignty eg sending a magistrate in to Waikato who spent his days distributing anti King propaganda and trying to get disputes heard by him instead of elders.

The rude presumptuos and assumed insane gits printing press landed in the river. Maori elite even travelled to England to raise the 'misunderstanding' and seek hearings with royalty there. Snubbed though.

Had Maori any strong belief sovereignty had been lost why the heck would they have bothered to try and take land off each other ongoing back then....? And why would Gov Gray have felt the need to visit King Tawhiao some 20 yrs with the unenviable job of just elucidating how pakeha saw the treaty other tribes had signed - hoping he'd pass it on this suckful news of the English treaty differences thereby (he musta hoped) smoothing frictions over the (splutter) longstanding 'misunderstanding'.

I recommend you read some Michael King to get in the picture.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/...422386&ref=rss