Nationals: Where the hell were ya?!

[Maido]

Not to be negative to your suggestions but you are flogging a dead horse on the 250 issue, it won't happen.
Sure they are a super class (just ask jay) but fact is they are being fazed out (and the class will end up like f3 did a few years back, everyone on 20 year old machinery)
also, for the majority, a 600 means change the oil between the races, not rebuild an entire engine.

600 supersport and Superbike classes are more about how much money one can pump into a bike whereas the 125's are all about rider ability and I like to see that more.

This is such a typical response, the bikes are bigger and faster so they cost more yes, but if you do the maths, it isn't that much of a price difference compared to a similar class (ie 250's vs 600's, and alot cheaper than 500's vs 1000's!!), you are comparing mini's with v8 supercars.
Also, (this is in no way a dig at the 125 guys, so please don't take it personally!!!) about the rider ability thing, not to be rude and i know their equipment wouldn't have been better because it is all about rider ability [insert sarcasm emoticon!!], but every year for about the last 3-4 years we have had special overseas riders in this class come over and DOMINATE 125's (midge, jackson whats his handle etc), where as kiwis routinely beat good over seas riders in the proddy classes. does this mean the proddy riders have more "rider ability"???

pffft... 600s and 1000s... way overated. BRING BACK 250GP!!! Then there would be some racing

i think it is usually the guy's riding the bikes that make for close racing not the bikes size or stature (look at the 150's).

It is funny, I used to have the same opinion back when I first started, I thought the big classes were all about money and the riders we not as good, then I rode these bikes, and found that the level is DEFINATELY higher, i used to routinly get middle to low top ten in f3, even won races in 250, but have to work my ass off to finish top ten in 600 (ask andy evans if he thinks 600 races are easier!!)
You have to know your craft alot better and respect them because they can bite very hard, and anyone who can master them is truely a great rider.

finished with my rant, sorry to all i offended, so on a more positive note...
I think that a super stock 1000 or 600 class run on the same grid in conjunction with the superbike/sport grid would be great, especially for the guys who don't have access to engine builders etc. A separate championship inside the class like they do all round the world would be good and it would lead to bigger fields as not every one wants to race in the same "class" as the top guys but in the same "field" where they can get close up to the action and see how they can make up the time. (just as the stock sv class would do in F3)

I just read through my thread, i don't actually think it makes sense so i am prepared to be flammed and torn to shreds, happy hunting!!

[oyster]

It's definitely a stairway. In terms of cost, and sometimes ability.
So if you start in Miniature Road Race, and you're really good, you'll join the Streetstock ranks about half way up, not at the bottom. And when you break lap records in Streetstock, consistently, you'll be halfway up the 125GP ranks. And so on till you're on a Superbike. As you go up, the cost and complexity goes up with it, so if you're patient and canny, you'll make sure you "complete your apprenticeship" in each class on your way. Then it's way easier on the pocket and the body. When people start too high up the ladder, the bike and the class is often too far above their head, so in a short time they go faster and faster till they crash a lot while only doing pretty ordinary lap times. Then they give up. The crucial class is 125GP. Steve Ward, as nearly a middle aged man, said it took him 6 years to learn to ride one. But some of his lap records still stand, set on his "ancient" 1995 model RS 125 in spite of visits to NZ by the featherweight hotshots from overseas with their superfast kitted gear.

The moral. If you want to ride for fun, ride what you like. If you want to be the best rider you'll ever be, at the lowest cost, physically and financially, then take the time to "climb the ladder"

[CM2005]

Hmmm.. I didn't know they binned the 250's and last time i went to puke 800km round trip, it was to see the classics.. I'm building a bucket to get into it, so that should be cheap. Street Racing will always be more popular, we just need more circuits on the Calendar... I dunno!

[Sketchy_Racer]

Not to be negative to your suggestions but you are flogging a dead horse on the 250 issue, it won't happen.
Sure they are a super class (just ask jay) but fact is they are being fazed out (and the class will end up like f3 did a few years back, everyone on 20 year old machinery)
also, for the majority, a 600 means change the oil between the races, not rebuild an entire engine.

sure there aren't many 250s around now, but yes you can still buy them new, Honda, yamaha, aprilla. so on.
Being fazed out?, its not that they are being fazed out, its that SO many people have the mindset you have. "too much maintainance" "engine rebuilds cost too much"

Well for maintanance, Im sure every top 5 600 or 1000 has had a full pull down, and thousands spent on makeing it go fast. Sure you only have to replace oil after each race meet, but when it finally goes bang (or a gearbox gives up eh jay) It makes a mess.
Lets say you blow a piston. that'll be New barrels, new head, probably new cases, and new crank. X4! an easy 2-3g?
Do that on a 250gp bike.. maybe 500-1000$$
Same with crash damage.. Highside a 600.. you'll probably bend a frame, forks.. swingarm....
Do the same on a 250, you'll have to be really trying hard to even bend the forks. Not saying it doesnt happpen, just alot less likely.

And the ease of maintainance on a GP bike, i can probably change a piston faster than you could do a oil change.

Are the people (racers, and mechs) really too dumb to spin a spanner? heck i can do it, anyone can

Also, (this is in no way a dig at the 125 guys, so please don't take it personally!!!) about the rider ability thing, not to be rude and i know their equipment wouldn't have been better because it is all about rider ability [insert sarcasm emoticon!!], but every year for about the last 3-4 years we have had special overseas riders in this class come over and DOMINATE 125's (midge, jackson whats his handle etc), where as kiwis routinely beat good over seas riders in the proddy classes. does this mean the proddy riders have more "rider ability"???

Yeah, so we got beaten by aussies.
But have you compared the bikes?? the weight of the riders? the amount of track time? the amount of backing? the 'fantastic' aussies have had?

and yes the aussies come kick our arses in proddy classes to. I do remeber a robbie bugden completly dominating and kickin our arse at certain tracks.

There is a reason that they do still run 125gp and 250gp in motoGP.
As oyster mentions, its all a ladder, and you cant miss any steps if you want to get to the top.

Its just ashame that so many young NZ racers have it stuck in thier mind, that 600s and 1000s are the best.

Logical sense would say that 125s and 250s would be the class to be in if you ever want to get to the top (as in world)

Each to thier own, thats just my opinion

[JayRacer37]

Being fazed out?, its not that they are being fazed out, its that SO many people have the mindset you have. "too much maintainance" "engine rebuilds cost too much"

Its just ashame that so many young NZ racers have it stuck in thier mind, that 600s and 1000s are the best.

Logical sense would say that 125s and 250s would be the class to be in if you ever want to get to the top (as in world)

Yeah, they are being fazed out. There isn't many places running a top level national 250GP class any more....and with the worldwide numbers dwindeling in favor of production classes, thats guna keep going. And, even though in NZ it may be cheaper too run a 125 or even a 250, you take that racing serious, out of the country, and you are very rapidly going to rack up more than it would cost to run a 600m just on mantaince, before you event ry and hotrod that 125 or 250 to make it compeditive.

It's not that young NZ racers have it "stuck in their mind" that 600 or supers is best, its that in NZ those are the classes that get recognised, also worldwide, you see the backgrounds people are coming from, its not 125 anymore, its production based racing (John Hopkins, Chris Vermeulen, Nicky Hayden, Colin Edwards, etc...and thats just MotoGP class). If you take a country, say, the States, name a GP class rider over there. a-huh...600 od Superbike?? try it for Britan, Aussie....the focus is now on production racing. At international level, production racing is the level that its easier to break into...try even getting a world 125GP bike to race, let alone how much money you would have to bring.

"Logical sence" now see's 600 od supers as the classes to be in as a jump to a world level championship bud, ESPESSIALLY from countries like NZ or AUS.

[Ivan]

go the 125's! nice to see some proper race bikes out there. close racing and carrying the corner speed.
but from a spectator point of view the soggy 600's and superbikes sliding and weaving look better from the sidelines.

Yip you need to try one out Phil would suit you
Dont play with that 600 get a real bike


Yip and I agree with Glen RG100!! alot of people seem to cut 125 GP off If you look the majority of us are young guys out there doing it and we start somewere Sam didnt start on a 600 neither did Jay. They raced 125's and some of us are goign to end up being Sam and Jays too Look at Young Jackson and Blake Leigh Smith who rode here last Nats. He raced the final 4 rounds in 125 GP world championship for KTM

[Sketchy_Racer]

Yeah, they are being fazed out. There isn't many places running a top level national 250GP class any more....and with the worldwide numbers dwindeling in favor of production classes, thats guna keep going.

I still beg to differ.

Its not that the 'man' is trying to faze them out, it's just that they have become such a minority, that many places wont run a class for the because there just isn't enough of them. Which is fair enough too.

"in favor of production classes"

Why are production class now rising, and the GP classes dying?
Thats a question im yet to find an answer for.

And, even though in NZ it may be cheaper too run a 125 or even a 250, you take that racing serious, out of the country, and you are very rapidly going to rack up more than it would cost to run a 600m just on mantaince, before you event ry and hotrod that 125 or 250 to make it compeditive.

So taking a 125 or 250 international becomes more expensive, but a production class stays the same? I doubt it, but i could be wrong.

It's not that young NZ racers have it "stuck in their mind" that 600 or supers is best, its that in NZ those are the classes that get recognised, also worldwide, you see the backgrounds people are coming from, its not 125 anymore, its production based racing (John Hopkins, Chris Vermeulen, Nicky Hayden, Colin Edwards, etc...and thats just MotoGP class). If you take a country, say, the States, name a GP class rider over there. a-huh...600 od Superbike?? try it for Britan, Aussie....the focus is now on production racing. At international level, production racing is the level that its easier to break into...try even getting a world 125GP bike to race, let alone how much money you would have to bring.

I mis-communicated myself before with that statement.

It's that alot of inexperienced riders are either jumping straight into 600s and 1000s, without taking the steps required to build themselfs as a rider. Sure some people just want to race, but some people have hopes and ambitions of going furthur than just NZ, and im really struggling to see how they can do it without the proper training from lower down classes.

And once again, these people with lack of experience jump on 600s or supers, and what would ya know, they crash lots, have a huge scare, then bugger off. Which is a shame, because it drives people away from our sport, and drives away people that may have serious skill, they just need to learn how to use it.

So the move to production racing is becoming the class to move to, but IMO the 125 - 250 training ground is still a critical part of developing skill.

rambling over

[sidecar bob]

Having been out of the country for quite a few years this series was my first chance to get up close and personal with the top echelon of NZ Road Racing at the Nats.

First impressions I had as I walked into Manfeild:
1) where are all the racers?
2) where are all the spectators?
3) does lack of the former cause the lack of the latter?

Seriously, at the Vic Club meeting I managed to compete (poorly) at there were dirty tricks a plenty trying to secure a stable/pit box at sparrows fart in the morning whereas at the Nats they were three quarters empty at lunchtime, even allowing for a few more stand alone porta-shade style efforts. Whats with that?

Surely clubs should be encouraging entries to fill the grids, and surely competitors should want to be showing THEIR wares and their SPONSORS wares on the big stage? So where was everybody? And how do you go from tens of thousands of people at the Battle of the Streets to measely hundreds of people at the National series?

13-15 entries in the big bangers was a pretty poor effort I reckon. If WE can't be bothered showing up why would we expect any coverage from TV etc?

Ok, the Nationals may sound a bit daunting, so let's run a Clubmans' class to get a few bikes out there and give a stepping stone to the big show....but no, we run bloody go karts for a few demo laps instead. Cool as they are, they didn't race, and added nothing to the day.

I'm at a bit of a loss actually. Sam Smith was an obvious stand out, and Jay Lawrence had his moments, but who else looked like stepping in to fill the shoes of Ray Clee, Shaun Harris, Brian Bernard, Tony Rees etc? There's the old duo of Stroudy and Shirriffs then there's a long way back to Hayden Fitzgerald and an equally long way back to the rest.

Full credit to those who turned up and gave their all, but the question has to be asked: is NZ road racing at it's lowest ebb?

Tha reason that Manfield was dead is because there was a sound of thunder meeting a Ruapuna the same weekend.(great organisation someone)
As a result a number of prominent Ducati's & Aprilias were missing from the entire national points rounds, the logic being that if you are going to miss a round (because you are competing at s.o.t) then you will be at a severe points disadvantage at the end, making the whole exercise pointless.
As a result, the biggest percentage of spectators, Harley, Duke & other non Jap brand riders are conspicuous by there absence.
If MNZ re introduce BEARS to their national championship points rounds, the spectators will quadruple instantly.

[Two Smoker]

Why are production class now rising, and the GP classes dying?
Thats a question im yet to find an answer for.

The 125's and 250's are being fazed out mainly due to the California and Euro emmisions standard...

Also what wins on race day sells on monday... How many gp bikes can you rides on the road??? People like the mainstream racing (600's and 1000's) due to the fact that they can ride THOSE bikes (somewhat detuned) on the road... And where there is a large fan base, there is a large sponser base, where there is lots of money...

I personally think that 125's is a great class... But as Sam and Jay have shown jumping from a 125 to a 600 isnt that hard...

[Sketchy_Racer]

The 125's and 250's are being fazed out mainly due to the California and Euro emmisions standard...

Also what wins on race day sells on monday... How many gp bikes can you rides on the road??? People like the mainstream racing (600's and 1000's) due to the fact that they can ride THOSE bikes (somewhat detuned) on the road... And where there is a large fan base, there is a large sponser base, where there is lots of money...

I personally think that 125's is a great class... But as Sam and Jay have shown jumping from a 125 to a 600 isnt that hard...

Nicely put Chris.

So what that says is that the motorcycle enthusiasts these days don't care if there is some really good racing, they care more for the fact that "ohh wow i must look cool like them when i ride my 'gsxrcbryzfplasticfantastic' "

Maybe thats why racing spectating in NZ is dying, is because when people go to races, its not interesting, because they are just seeing bikes they see on the road everyday (and in thier garage)

I also beleive that going from 125s - 600s is fine. But going from a few track days, or a season of 150s streetstock or the likes to 600s isnt a smart move.

So many theories... It's all rather fustrating

[JayRacer37]

"in favor of production classes"

Why are production class now rising, and the GP classes dying?
Thats a question im yet to find an answer for.

Cause its easier to buy a production bike, and you can buy a new one much more simply than a new GP bike...they arn't readily avalible, and some people want only a new bike.

So taking a 125 or 250 international becomes more expensive, but a production class stays the same? I doubt it, but i could be wrong.

Yea, essentially prices rise in a 250 or 125 as you maintain it more on the edge, parts are harder to get and more expensive cause there kit, rebuilds more frequently, and how much do u rekon ud pay to buy or lease a compeditive 250?? remeber Ant West had to bring $1 MILLION to LEASE a year old ex factory 250 Aprillia...unsuprisingly, he couldn't do it.
And a 600 cost is still going to stay similar...as there just road parts, we are already using the same equpiment as world SS in stuff like pipes, shocks (well, Sam and Craig anyway) and you arn't able to buy stuff like shit-hot forks, huge engine mods and stuff. You can buy to own a Ten Kate Honda CBR600 in world spec for only $75,000-ish. thats cheap compared to gp's. and the class entry level is much closer. you can be a private 600 and be there, ain't guna happen on a 125 or 250, no matter how good you are...and that is shown up here with the intenational riders that come over and ride good bikes. When Midge was here there wasn't a lot on that bike that wasn't stock...and boy, did it have legs on my essentially stock one!!

So the move to production racing is becoming the class to move to, but IMO the 125 - 250 training ground is still a critical part of developing skill.

rambling over

Yeap, surely is, not even trying to dispute that - it's absoulutly essential. But the focus is still on the production classes for young talent worlwide, with the execption of probably Spain, who have a booming 125 class-only its almost at the same level for enty as world 125...

[Ivan]

bunch of diesels if you ask me..........................



We need more ring ding ding than more brooooom broooooom broooooom nothing beats the smell of a 2 stroke the blue haze when it starts the noise and then that mad power band

[sidecar bob]

bunch of diesels if you ask me..........................



We need more ring ding ding than more brooooom broooooom broooooom nothing beats the smell of a 2 stroke the blue haze when it starts the noise and then that mad power band

Broooooom brooooom is what brings the spectators running chap, S.O.T at Ruapuna had many times the spectators that Manfield had.

[Two Smoker]

Maybe thats why racing spectating in NZ is dying, is because when people go to races, its not interesting, because they are just seeing bikes they see on the road everyday (and in thier garage)

I believe it has been dead for a while due to the lack of riders... More riders=more competition=harder/faster riding=closer racing at the front.

I also beleive that going from 125s - 600s is fine. But going from a few track days, or a season of 150s streetstock or the likes to 600s isnt a smart move.

There are still other steps that can be taken other than 125's... that being in the form of SV650's...

[Kickaha]

Broooooom brooooom is what brings the spectators running chap, S.O.T at Ruapuna had many times the spectators that Manfield had.

It always does, it would be one of the best meetings to attend either as competitior or spectator