My first poll for the NZ public

[mashman]

Posted a few whats? people who agree with you? No shit, what you fail to do is show any sort of significant number.

Maybe, doesn't change how many people choose it over the alternatives.

They are, and they do, and they have heard of money free systems, and they still choose money. That is why you are too scared to poll the question; you treasure the illusion that the reality is otherwise.

It's happening without me lol.

I know, I completely rely on people going their own way.

Speaking for everyone again eh. Amusing.

[bogan]

It's happening without me lol.

I know, I completely rely on people going their own way.

Speaking for everyone again eh. Amusing.

Is it? not even enough support here to get money free on the ballot form. Despite you advocating support for them here (a very political action).

As do I. The difference is I do not discount the opinions of those who do simply because they disagree with my own.

No, just speaking for reality. Money free'rs and stupid worlders simply don't have any traction; the 'so called 99%' fizzled out very quickly despite getting a lot of coverage and publicity. Now that was a movement who tried to speak for 'everyone' :laugh:

[mashman]

Is it? not even enough support here to get money free on the ballot form. Despite you advocating support for them here (a very political action).

As do I. The difference is I do not discount the opinions of those who do simply because they disagree with my own.

No, just speaking for reality. Money free'rs and stupid worlders simply don't have any traction; the 'so called 99%' fizzled out very quickly despite getting a lot of coverage and publicity. Now that was a movement who tried to speak for 'everyone' :laugh:

Well it went from zero to around about 1000 in a few months. Oddly enough, I reckon when most people were asked they said no to knowing what a resource Based Economy is, let alone having ever heard of anyone talking about such a thing. It's a start.

I said I can.

Fizzled out? You mean you don't hear about them in the media? I still maintain that I can.

[bogan]

Well it went from zero to around about 1000 in a few months. Oddly enough, I reckon when most people were asked they said no to knowing what a resource Based Economy is, let alone having ever heard of anyone talking about such a thing. It's a start.

I said I can.

Fizzled out? You mean you don't hear about them in the media? I still maintain that I can.

So what is it now? still growing? 10,000? RBE is just a buzzword, you cannot articulate any solid plan (hence the hypothetical death threats) so you don't convey any real new info, people know about money-less systems; they aren't stupid, it is a simple concept; they can already make an informed choice, and they have.

And with that dictatorlike ruling, no fuhrer explanation is required.

No, I mean they never kept momentum; initially people were taking them seriously due to the buzzwords and unknown nature of their proposed solution, now we know about it, we chose to ignore them and continue with the current system. Sound familiar?

[mashman]

So what is it now? still growing? 10,000? RBE is just a buzzword, you cannot articulate any solid plan (hence the hypothetical death threats) so you don't convey any real new info, people know about money-less systems; they aren't stupid, it is a simple concept; they can already make an informed choice, and they have.

And with that dictatorlike ruling, no fuhrer explanation is required.

No, I mean they never kept momentum; initially people were taking them seriously due to the buzzwords and unknown nature of their proposed solution, now we know about it, we chose to ignore them and continue with the current system. Sound familiar?

Dunno what it is at the moment... but hey, it's a start. :yawn:

What dictator are you talking about?

That's the thing, they never claimed to have a solution but fuck me they raised one hell of a lot of issues that need to be addressed that aren't. Maybe they haven't gone :shit:

[Brian d marge]

Fuck you're a dickhead. However, with a username which is "brain damage" rearranged I'm not surprised.
Yes i can be when dealing with people who switch off their intelligence

And yet you figured out my user name

Heres the deal
If you switch it on . . .ill be all forth coming etc , .switch it off and ill call you oscar

Cant say fairer than that

[Zedder]

Yes i can be when dealing with people who switch off their intelligence

And yet you figured out my user name

Heres the deal
If you switch it on . . .ill beall forth coming etc , .switch it off and ill call you oscar

Cant say fairer than that

To be blunt, your posts come across as incoherent and always have done to me.

[bogan]

Dunno what it is at the moment... but hey, it's a start. :yawn:

What dictator are you talking about?

That's the thing, they never claimed to have a solution but fuck me they raised one hell of a lot of issues that need to be addressed that aren't. Maybe they haven't gone :shit:

Could be an end too I'm thinking.

The one you fancy yourself as, any position which eventually comes down to, because I say so (specifically the line containing "I said I can."), or murderous threats is just fuhrer proof of you dictatorous ways.

Hmmm, maybe that is why the faded out too. They haven't gone, I know that; they have peaked though.


Cant say fairer than that

Well you could treat everyone as equals...

[mashman]

Could be an end too I'm thinking.

The one you fancy yourself as, any position which eventually comes down to, because I say so (specifically the line containing "I said I can."), or murderous threats is just fuhrer proof of you dictatorous ways.

Hmmm, maybe that is why the faded out too. They haven't gone, I know that; they have peaked though.


So negative.

So, when you conjured up this fiction for yourself, did you spooge freely or in a tissue? Can does not mean does. So negative.

Could be, although they may also be learning from that experience, and in the meantime they'll turn up for Sandy's and keep writing people's debt off.

[bogan]

So negative.

So, when you conjured up this fiction for yourself, did you spooge freely or in a tissue? Can does not mean does. So negative.

Could be, although they may also be learning from that experience, and in the meantime they'll turn up for Sandy's and keep writing people's debt off.

That is how you choose to see it, I see it as positive though.

You've said you do a few posts back as well... Indeed it is a negative thing to discount others opinions.

No doubt. But a peak is still a peak, and it was a bit weak.

[Brian d marge]

To be blunt, your posts come across as incoherent and always have done to me.
Well others understand so it must be your end
Been down that path before

Look back a few pages

I quoted , ( same post ) ...2 books from the same fella

if ya havent read those books then the post wont make sense ....

Whose problem is that?

let run though the check list .....

me , understand
Some others ( indicated by green rep ) ....understand

you .........

Now , a technique I use , if for example , I dont understand say ...a mashie post , ( or I think even a bogie post) ..I email off line ,,,,,

and ask questions ,,,, its a technique that seems to work for me .....

Signed

Barring Mead

hint its an anagram .......

[mashman]

That is how you choose to see it, I see it as positive though.

You've said you do a few posts back as well... Indeed it is a negative thing to discount others opinions.

No doubt. But a peak is still a peak, and it was a bit weak.

Of course you do.

Like I said, I said can and you've taken it to mean did even though I've stated otherwise. Silly proxy, bad proxy, failed proxy. Given that you discount my opinions, by misrepresenting them constantly through lack of ability to understand, I'd say that you're about as negative of a person that I have ever had the fortune of crossing paths with. But hey, you can discount that eh, coz it's one rule for you and any other rules you can think up for others. So very sad to see and all so very negative.

:killingme... I would have liked to have seen more from them but hey. Although with TPTB shitting themselves and needing to militarily arm their police and give sweeping laws with which to inter those who go to rally, you gotta wonder. Having said that, it ain't over til its over and I wonder how many will turn up in June.


and with what message given the panic measures (illegal to protest without permits etc...)TPTB have put into place in regards to

[Katman]

I believe great changes are afoot. People are starting to realise the futility of worshiping money and power and starting to see greed for the ugly cancer that it is.

And who knows, one day the likes of mashie might well be protecting the likes of bogie when others wish to line him and his ilk up against a wall.

[bogan]

Of course you do.

Like I said, I said can and you've taken it to mean did even though I've stated otherwise. Silly proxy, bad proxy, failed proxy. Given that you discount my opinions, by misrepresenting them constantly through lack of ability to understand, I'd say that you're about as negative of a person that I have ever had the fortune of crossing paths with. But hey, you can discount that eh, coz it's one rule for you and any other rules you can think up for others. So very sad to see and all so very negative.

:killingme... I would have liked to have seen more from them but hey. Although with TPTB shitting themselves and needing to militarily arm their police and give sweeping laws with which to inter those who go to rally, you gotta wonder. Having said that, it ain't over til its over and I wonder how many will turn up in June.


and with what message given the panic measures (illegal to protest without permits etc...)TPTB have put into place in regards to

What can I say, I'm just no burdened by a negative mindset :wings:

Ah, comes back to my misunderstanding again, and you unwillingness or inability to rectify that. To point out that you can, is irrelevant in itself then; a strawman to avoid continuing the discussion. Discount yours? no, I don't need to because yours are already far, far outweighed by others. You misrepresent you own opinions by attempting to save face instead of attempting to convey information.

Shitting themselves? fuck mashy, they probably oragnaised this shit to allow the masses to blow off some steam. What's happening in June?


I believe great changes are afoot. People are starting to realise the futility of worshiping money and power and starting to see greed for the ugly cancer that it is.

And who knows, one day the likes of mashie might well be protecting the likes of bogie when others wish to line him up against a wall.

And what are your plans? sit idly by and whinge like mashy?

:laugh: there's those hypothetical death threats again. If that dumb fuck ever has to protect me from the other stupid worlders, I'll kick him in the nuts and run to the wall instead of watching the world burn.

[mashman]

I believe great changes are afoot. People are starting to realise the futility of worshiping money and power and starting to see greed for the ugly cancer that it is.

And who knows, one day the likes of mashie might well be protecting the likes of bogie when others wish to line him and his ilk up against a wall.

Amen.

It's a dirty job, but yeah, I'd do it... unless someone pays me enough to murder him while he sleeps that is.

[Katman]

And what are your plans? sit idly by and whinge like mashy?


Hey, I already have no love of money. I'm destined to die poor. (Unless I win Lotto of course).

All anyone can do is draw attention to the putridness that has become so prevalent in today's world.

That is happening and people are starting to take notice.

[bogan]

Hey, I already have no love of money. I'm destined to die poor. (Unless I win Lotto of course).

All anyone can do is draw attention to the putridness that has become so prevalent in today's world.

That is happening and people are starting to take notice.

And does it really matter?

That sounds a bit negative, why not draw attention to the good instead?

We are, but removing money is not the answer; any other system put forth is even more open to abuse.

I can only conclude it is for this reason that moneyless subsociety's are not emerging from our own. That's the crux of it, the point that puts test to all the arguments you guys put forward and finds them lacking. Why haven't people like you/mashy/akzle got together and gone, nah, we don't need to allacate resources between ourselves. Just get one joint bank acc and share everything...

[mashman]

What can I say, I'm just no burdened by a negative mindset :wings:

Ah, comes back to my misunderstanding again, and you unwillingness or inability to rectify that. To point out that you can, is irrelevant in itself then; a strawman to avoid continuing the discussion. Discount yours? no, I don't need to because yours are already far, far outweighed by others. You misrepresent you own opinions by attempting to save face instead of attempting to convey information.

Shitting themselves? fuck mashy, they probably oragnaised this shit to allow the masses to blow off some steam. What's happening in June?

Cool.

I have been willing and I have offered you more than enough knowledge for you to be able to join the dots. You can't. Plenty of others have with far less information. Your issue. End of.

:killingme@organising... they're shitting themselves because they're up to their eyes in it, change is most definitely coming and once they're not in power anymore, and if still alive, they'll be FUBAR. That's why they inter people for speaking up and why they require require laws, guns, lies, manipulation, corruption etc... to force compliance. Yeah, they are up to their eyes in it and they know it.

[Katman]

I can only conclude it is for this reason that moneyless subsociety's are not emerging from our own.

Nobody said it was going to change overnight.

Hey, it may not happen in our lifetime but that doesn't stop me gaining great pleasure from being part of something that will reverse the path to destruction that Mankind is on.

[bogan]

Cool.

I have been willing and I have offered you more than enough knowledge for you to be able to join the dots. You can't. Plenty of others have with far less information. Your issue. End of.

:killingme@organising... they're shitting themselves because they're up to their eyes in it, change is most definitely coming and once they're not in power anymore, and if still alive, they'll be FUBAR. That's why they inter people for speaking up and why they require require laws, guns, lies, manipulation, corruption etc... to force compliance. Yeah, they are up to their eyes in it and they know it.

I have joined the dots. I have made my choice. That is the End Of, unless you have any new information. The idea of while (!agree) moreinformation.force goes by another name, indoctrination, also common in dictatorships and communisms. One thing it is certainly not, is an issue for me.

And you really think you can overthrow them and cast them down? How, murder?

[bogan]

Nobody said it was going to change overnight.

Hey, it may not happen in our lifetime but that doesn't stop me gaining great pleasure from being part of something that will reverse the path to destruction that Mankind is on.

Why not, obviously you won't change the world overnight, but why not change the way you live? Show us how it can work.

As will I.

[Maha]

Why haven't people like you/mashy/akzle got together and gone, nah, we don't need to allocate resources between ourselves. Just get one joint bank acount and share everything...

I presume you mean a Sperm Bank?

[Katman]

And you really think you can overthrow them and cast them down? How, murder?

Nothing beats numbers.

From little things big things grow.

[Katman]

Why not, obviously you won't change the world overnight, but why not change the way you live?


See, that's where your stupidity gets the better of you.

You have no idea how I live.

[bogan]

See, that's where your stupidity gets the better of you.

You have no idea how I live.

No doubt you'll tell us all if I've guessed wrong about how you don't live though... The point is there is no reason why a society that does not use money as internal currency cannot emerge from the current one if it is a viable option. I believe it is not a viable option due to how open to abuse it is. Now, are you a part of one of those?

[Katman]

Now, are you a part of one of those?

One of what?

[Katman]

I presume you mean a Sperm Bank?

Wow, imagine that.

You could get your fill any time you liked.

:drool:

[mashman]

I have joined the dots. I have made my choice. That is the End Of, unless you have any new information. The idea of while (!agree) moreinformation.force goes by another name, indoctrination, also common in dictatorships and communisms. One thing it is certainly not, is an issue for me.

And you really think you can overthrow them and cast them down? How, murder?

Totes whatevs bro.

:killingme... cast them down? :rofl: :crybaby: :rofl: I've told you how and it doesn't involve murder.

[mashman]

"Although flawless counts are impossible to come by – the transient nature of homeless populations presents a major difficulty – the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) estimates that 49,933 veterans are homeless on any given night." (http://nchv.org/index.php/news/media/background_and_statistics/)

This is your system in action. Offer the ultimate sacrifice of your life for your country and then be disposed of coz you're too expensive to care for :tugger:. The need is there. The people are available to help. Damn, out of money again.

[Katman]

"Although flawless counts are impossible to come by – the transient nature of homeless populations presents a major difficulty – the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) estimates that 49,933 veterans are homeless on any given night." (http://nchv.org/index.php/news/media/background_and_statistics/)

This is your system in action. Offer the ultimate sacrifice of your life for your country and then be disposed of coz you're too expensive to care for :tugger:. The need is there. The people are available to help. Damn, out of money again.

But hey, at least what they save by not giving a fuck about those 49,933 veterans gets to buy 4 more cruise missiles.

[mashman]

Family of 'gutted' 8-year-old Preston fan upset after woman 'snatched' Jermaine Beckford's match-winning shirt off him (https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/blogs/world-of-sport/family-of-preston-fan-say-8-year-old-boy-is--gutted--after-woman-snatched-jermain-beckford-s-match-winning-shirt-off-him-154037172.html?vp=1)... fuckin bitch and her pursuit of money.

[bogan]

One of what?

'a society that does not use money as internal currency'


I've told you how and it doesn't involve murder.

You've told me a number of different things. Including seizing their property, murdering them, not seizing their property, voting them out, etc, etc. What is it you mean this time?

[mashman]

You've told me a number of different things. Including seizing their property, murdering them, not seizing their property, voting them out, etc, etc. What is it you mean this time?

I'm kind of stunned that you actually sought clarification. You have had all of the information you require, now it's all up to how lazy you wish to be. Bon chance mon frere.

[Gadget1]

Well others understand so it must be your end
Been down that path before

Look back a few pages

I quoted , ( same post ) ...2 books from the same fella

if ya havent read those books then the post wont make sense ....

Whose problem is that?

let run though the check list .....

me , understand
Some others ( indicated by green rep ) ....understand

you .........

Now , a technique I use , if for example , I dont understand say ...a mashie post , ( or I think even a bogie post) ..I email off line ,,,,,

and ask questions ,,,, its a technique that seems to work for me .....

Signed

Barring Mead

hint its an anagram .......

Duh! "Been down that path before", I'm with Zedder, you post drivel. "Brain damage" rearranged very apt.

[Gadget1]

And does it really matter?

That sounds a bit negative, why not draw attention to the good instead?

We are, but removing money is not the answer; any other system put forth is even more open to abuse.

I can only conclude it is for this reason that moneyless subsociety's are not emerging from our own. That's the crux of it, the point that puts test to all the arguments you guys put forward and finds them lacking. Why haven't people like you/mashy/akzle got together and gone, nah, we don't need to allacate resources between ourselves. Just get one joint bank acc and share everything...


Three nasty, bitter, people together yep, should go well...

[Ocean1]

All anyone can do is draw attention to the putridness that has become so prevalent in today's world.


Hey, it may not happen in our lifetime but that doesn't stop me gaining great pleasure from being part of something that will reverse the path to destruction that Mankind is on.


Nothing beats numbers.

From little things big things grow.

Have some numbers: http://ourworldindata.org/data/#

I'll be interested to see how much putrid negativity you can wring from them.

Your interest in money, who has it and who doesn't in particular: http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-prosperity/income-inequality/

The briefest of perusals seems to indicate that far from a putrid slide to destruction we look to be improving conditions across the board hand over fist, but I'm sure you can find something to bitch about in there if you look hard enough.

[Katman]

Have some numbers: http://ourworldindata.org/data/#


Ah yes, economists.

We all know how much they love money, don't we?

[mashman]

Have some numbers: http://ourworldindata.org/data/#

I'll be interested to see how much putrid negativity you can wring from them.

Your interest in money, who has it and who doesn't in particular: http://ourworldindata.org/data/growth-and-distribution-of-prosperity/income-inequality/

The briefest of perusals seems to indicate that far from a putrid slide to destruction we look to be improving conditions across the board hand over fist, but I'm sure you can find something to bitch about in there if you look hard enough.

How accurate do you reckon the data is given "OurWorldInData does not warrant that the functions or content contained on the website or services will be uninterrupted or error-free, that defects will be corrected" choice."? What's the margin of error used to produce them stats? Does they include outliers?

[bogan]

I'm kind of stunned that you actually sought clarification. You have had all of the information you require, now it's all up to how lazy you wish to be. Bon chance mon frere.

Like I said, the information around seems conflicting, hence the asking for clarification. Why can you not give it?

[Katman]

Why can you not give it?

You like being spoon fed, don't you?

[mashman]

Like I said, the information around seems conflicting, hence the asking for clarification. Why can you not give it?

Why should I make your conflict my issue? You read negativity into what I post, then it ain't my conflict, it's yours, always has been, always will be and I've witnessed it happen: Pub conversation, same words to 4 people, 2 say I was being negative, 2 say I was being positive. So, your problem old son.

[mashman]

You like being spoon fed, don't you?

Entitlement complex.

[Brian d marge]

Duh! "Been down that path before", I'm with Zedder, you post drivel. "Brain damage" rearranged very apt.

Ahhh the old 65 post wonder .........

Not my problem ........ the country need cannon fodder .....

[mashman]

Three nasty, bitter, people together yep, should go well...

It's worked for National thus far :niceone:

[bogan]

You like being spoon fed, don't you?

No, I just think shared understanding is the way forward. Any time you want to share, just ask.


Why should I make your conflict my issue? You read negativity into what I post, then it ain't my conflict, it's yours, always has been, always will be and I've witnessed it happen: Pub conversation, same words to 4 people, 2 say I was being negative, 2 say I was being positive. So, your problem old son.

The information you post conflicts itself, the conflict is within you. Instead of resolving that conflict you seek to suppress the symptoms by not posting information.

[bogan]

Something to think about, we are all here for the same goal, to improve society; the Mahas etc don't bother reading this stuff because they don't desire such change, those who are here, do. So how does that shared goal result in so much abuse? How could abusing each other possibly be a better option than shared understanding?

[mashman]

Something to think about, we are all here for the same goal, to improve society; the Mahas etc don't bother reading this stuff because they don't desire such change, those who are here, do. So how does that shared goal result in so much abuse? How could abusing each other possibly be a better option than shared understanding?

I've thought about it once or twice. 42. Or... you can't please all of the people all of the time.

[bogan]

I've thought about it once or twice. 42. Or... you can't please all of the people all of the time.

Why abuse them though?

[Katman]

Why abuse them though?

Dry your eyes princess.

[bogan]

Dry your eyes princess.

So what do you hope to accomplish with that sort of remark?

[mashman]

The information you post conflicts itself, the conflict is within you. Instead of resolving that conflict you seek to suppress the symptoms by not posting information.

To you it does yes. To me, and quite possibly to others, there is no conflict whatsoever. Ok, so I tell you that the information is there, and you tell me that it isn't. See, we've been here many times before and you simply refuse to make a leap of understanding because you are allowing perceived negatives to hold you back. This is evidenced by you openly admitting that you don't understand what I mean when I talk of hammers etc... Kinda fuckin stupid given that gold exists, or perhaps diamonds, or a platinum coin etc... that has value that is obviously open to abuse.

Amusingly enough (I'd get infracted for the size of irony image I'd like to post), that failed leap is due to you focusing entirely on the negatives of the idea.

[mashman]

Why abuse them though?

The abuse is entirely your perception. However, I choose to respond to you how I choose to respond to you... big bad sweary words n all.

[mashman]

So what do you hope to accomplish with that sort of remark?

I guess he could have posted an irony picture or pot kettle black or glass houses or sommet.

[Maha]

So what do you hope to accomplish with that sort of remark?

For you to keep stroking his over inflated view of self importance on here.

[Katman]

For you to keep stroking his over inflated view of self importance on here.

<img src="http://static.flickr.com/72/193624744_a3b10ed249.jpg"/>

[bogan]

To you it does yes. To me, and quite possibly to others, there is no conflict whatsoever. Ok, so I tell you that the information is there, and you tell me that it isn't. See, we've been here many times before and you simply refuse to make a leap of understanding because you are allowing perceived negatives to hold you back. This is evidenced by you openly admitting that you don't understand what I mean when I talk of hammers etc... Kinda fuckin stupid given that gold exists, or perhaps diamonds, or a platinum coin etc... that has value that is obviously open to abuse.

Amusingly enough (I'd get infracted for the size of irony image I'd like to post), that failed leap is due to you focusing entirely on the negatives of the idea.

If shared understanding is your goal, why do you not re-iterate what has been said in the past though? I often find my own understanding of a subject increases when explaining it to others; both from the input of others, and learning to frame such information in a way others will understand. That is why I think very little can be done without a solid base of shared understanding.


The abuse is entirely your perception. However, I choose to respond to you how I choose to respond to you... big bad sweary words n all.

Absolutely it is, but when someone perceives another to be abusing them, it is a barrier to sharing information and understanding. You may perceive that as a problem of their own making, but regardless of that, it inhibits the progress of that understanding; and to what end?

[Katman]

If shared understanding is your goal, why do you not re-iterate what has been said in the past though?

You have repeatedly shown you're not remotely interested in examining any information presented to you that opposes your viewpoint.

[bogan]

You have repeatedly shown you're not remotely interested in examining any information presented to you that opposes your viewpoint.

See that is not my understanding. To support my viewpoint I would say that I ask many questions about presented information, usually starting with its veracity, its scope, etc; precisely so I can gain the most understanding about said information.

[Katman]

See that is not my understanding. To support my viewpoint I would say that I ask many questions about presented information, usually starting with its veracity, its scope, etc; precisely so I can gain the most understanding about said information.

Are you schizophrenic?

[bogan]

Are you schizophrenic?

No.

10char

[Katman]

No.

So why are you not even remotely interested in viewing any information if it happens to have been uploaded to youtube?

[bogan]

So why are you not even remotely interested in viewing any information if it happens to have been uploaded to youtube?

Because it is near impossible to establish the veracity and scope of such information.

[Katman]

Because it is near impossible to establish the veracity and scope of such information.

What's wrong with viewing the information and then doing some research into the veracity of that information?

Or is that too much hard work?

[bogan]

What's wrong with viewing the information and then doing some research into the veracity of that information?

Or is that too much hard work?

I beleive that is a job for the person posting the information.

Because yes, it is too much hard work. There simply isn't enough hours in the day to research all information presented in such forms, there is time however, to do such research on the information one presents themselves...

[Katman]

Because yes, it is too much hard work.

You really are a lazy cunt, aren't you?

[bogan]

You really are a lazy cunt, aren't you?

That is not my understanding. My understanding is lazy means; Unwilling to do work or make an effort. Because I am prioritising what work to do, and what effort to make, I am not unwilling. The same accusation could be leveled at one who posts such information, ie, they are willing to do the task, but unwilling to do the work and effort required to fact check it before presenting it. I would say it is better leveled in that direction, as the task can be considered only half done, instead of properly done, or not done at all.

[Brian d marge]

Something to think about, we are all here for the same goal, to improve society; the Mahas etc don't bother reading this stuff because they don't desire such change, those who are here, do. So how does that shared goal result in so much abuse? How could abusing each other possibly be a better option than shared understanding?
Depends on the type of abuse
Mashy is banging willie in door in between sunday school classes

Tis a good post . . . So

What is your utopia
How would you improve society

[Brian d marge]

I beleive that is a job for the person posting the information.

Because yes, it is too much hard work. There simply isn't enough hours in the day to research all information presented in such forms, there is time however, to do such research on the information one presents themselves...
Exactly one has a day job


Though if you are interested I will point you in the direction I am travelling

Up to you from that point

[Ocean1]

Ah yes, economists.

We all know how much they love money, don't we?

Do they? What led you to that conclusion?

And if not the usually recognised professional sources for such things then from who do you get your economic data?

A Mechanic?

[mashman]

Exactly one has a day job


Though if you are interested I will point you in the direction I am travelling

Up to you from that point

Aye.

I am.

Fuckim. Wotchu got.

[Brian d marge]

Do they? What led you to that conclusion?

And if not the usually recognised professional sources for such things then from who do you get your economic data?

A Mechanic?
Shoeshine boys are more reliable
When they tell you to buy

Sell

Its worked before

[Brian d marge]

Aye.

I am.

Fuckim. Wotchu got.
When i get home ill post it

Hong kong pushing house prices and Isreal and the bbc

And a low water use garden

[bogan]

Depends on the type of abuse
Mashy is banging willie in door in between sunday school classes

Tis a good post . . . So

What is your utopia
How would you improve society

Bigger picture, figure out a ways make democracy a whole lot less representative and more direct. I'd like to see the use IT infrastructure to allow citizens to vote directly on issues. Voters would still elect representatives to hold their votes (or a proportion thereof) to place by proxy if voters do not place them on their own account.

Smaller picture, ensure my own production exceeds my needs/wants by a great enough amount to support not only my family, but support others prior to them becoming self sufficiently productive so they can in turn support more. That support would be voluntarily given on a by merit basis. As that network expands into a sub-society the needs/wants can be filled more easily due to the culture of sharing/giving that is promoted.

[Ocean1]

How accurate do you reckon the data is given "OurWorldInData does not warrant that the functions or content contained on the website or services will be uninterrupted or error-free, that defects will be corrected" choice."? What's the margin of error used to produce them stats? Does they include outliers?

So you looked hard enough to find the standard legal disclaimer but not hard enough to see that about 20% of the document is dedicated to citing and qualifying the source data for each set?

I know the facts don't agree with your crackpot cargo cult concepts, which is why you never back your story up. Max Rosser apparently does.

[Brian d marge]

When i get home ill post it

Hong kong pushing house prices and Isreal and the bbc

And a low water use garden
Tally sticks edward the 1 and oliver cromwell
Prince william the 9th of the house of hesse hanau and natos practiceof hiring out peace keepers

Lots and lots of stuff. . . . .

[Gadget1]

Ah yes, economists.

We all know how much they love money, don't we?

Economists study the allocation of scarce resources, money is only part of what they do. Moron.

[Gadget1]

Ahhh the old 65 post wonder .........

Not my problem ........ the country need cannon fodder .....

It only took me one post to ascertain your drivel though.

Hoewever, you are getting more coherent.

[mashman]

If shared understanding is your goal, why do you not re-iterate what has been said in the past though? I often find my own understanding of a subject increases when explaining it to others; both from the input of others, and learning to frame such information in a way others will understand. That is why I think very little can be done without a solid base of shared understanding.

Absolutely it is, but when someone perceives another to be abusing them, it is a barrier to sharing information and understanding. You may perceive that as a problem of their own making, but regardless of that, it inhibits the progress of that understanding; and to what end?

You don't think I've done that huh? Big subjects have lots and lots and lots of little ways that they can be approached. Hence why you get so many variations that in their own right stand under an R.B.E. People react to their environment. Remove money issues from peoples lives, house them, feed them, give them power, beer, beer making kits, the fastest broadband, roads built to last, roading designed to take the rush hour flow of traffic and get half of it to go in the opposite direction to business centres away from an already chocka CBD (Generation Zero offering things in Auckland, you might be interested in their designs) etc...(or not at all, whatevs), do you really think people are going to react negatively towards being offered that future? The catch, you have to work, probably in the job you already do. All entirely feasible, because that's exactly what happens today. Real future. Police state. Pick one.

[Gadget1]

It's worked for National thus far :niceone:


I take it you mean the National party. At least they're doing something.

[Gadget1]

Something to think about, we are all here for the same goal, to improve society; the Mahas etc don't bother reading this stuff because they don't desire such change, those who are here, do. So how does that shared goal result in so much abuse? How could abusing each other possibly be a better option than shared understanding?

From what I see here, they're only interested in seeing the destruction of a system and have a great delight in anything being destroyed. They don't want to actually build anything just talk about it. Other people are more positive.

The bittermen...

[bogan]

You don't think I've done that huh? Big subjects have lots and lots and lots of little ways that they can be approached. Hence why you get so many variations that in their own right stand under an R.B.E. People react to their environment. Remove money issues from peoples lives, house them, feed them, give them power, beer, beer making kits, the fastest broadband, roads built to last, roading designed to take the rush hour flow of traffic and get half of it to go in the opposite direction to business centres away from an already chocka CBD (Generation Zero offering things in Auckland, you might be interested in their designs) etc...(or not at all, whatevs), do you really think people are going to react negatively towards being offered that future? The catch, you have to work, probably in the job you already do. All entirely feasible, because that's exactly what happens today. Real future. Police state. Pick one.

I do not think you do it enough to achieve a shared understanding.

The problem with that future is its sustainability or acheivability. Many people understand the link between work and reward, and think that by removing that link, the work output will reduce. Any significant reduction in work output would result in a reduction in quality of that future.

The tipping point for many of them will be when they are shown that a society can flourish when that link is removed. This is why I would very much like to see an example of a society within our own in which this is the case (ie, one which does not use currency internally); it is also why I suggest those who believe that would be the case, start one to show us.

[Gadget1]

You really are a lazy cunt, aren't you?

It's better than being a nasty bitter cunt like you. You fucking moron.

[Ocean1]

Shoeshine boys are more reliable
When they tell you to buy

Sell

Its worked before

It certainly explains your singularly extensive portfolio.

[Katman]

It's better than being a nasty bitter cunt like you. You fucking moron.

Perhaps you should ask Bogan for some of his tissues.

[mashman]

I do not think you do it enough to achieve a shared understanding.

The problem with that future is its sustainability or acheivability. Many people understand the link between work and reward, and think that by removing that link, the work output will reduce. Any significant reduction in work output would result in a reduction in quality of that future.

The tipping point for many of them will be when they are shown that a society can flourish when that link is removed. This is why I would very much like to see an example of a society within our own in which this is the case (ie, one which does not use currency internally); it is also why I suggest those who believe that would be the case, start one to show us.

Seems I do.

It is sustainable and it is achievable. Many do understand that link. Many accept that the link can be broken as easily as saying I no longer view it that way. What ever happened to being the change in favour of assimilation. I reckon more than you think will be the change.

Is that be the change hypocrisy I see in them thar hills?

[Brian d marge]

It only took me one post to ascertain your drivel though.

Hoewever, you are getting more coherent.
I dont give a flying . . .

Come back when you have something thats of interest

As a rule 6 post wonders fly in .
. red rep everyone then are never seen again . ,

[bogan]

Seems I do.

It is sustainable and it is achievable. Many do understand that link. Many accept that the link can be broken as easily as saying I no longer view it that way. What ever happened to being the change in favour of assimilation. I reckon more than you think will be the change.

Is that be the change hypocrisy I see in them thar hills?

Yet, the understanding remains unshared. Questions remain unanswered, I think those two things are related.

Again, if it were that easy, why is it not done on a small scale, to make the changes there and assimilate the rest of society that way?

I do not see any hypocrisy, so I would like to understand how you interpret it that way, would you elaborate?

[Brian d marge]

It certainly explains your singularly extensive portfolio.
What . . my paid for . . house in tokyo 2 cars 5 bikes

Now singular repertoire . . . Id agree with

Same song for how many years now . . . .

[mashman]

I take it you mean the National party. At least they're doing something.

Yes, and it's to a budget that dictates what they can do with policy etc... I get it.

[mashman]

When i get home ill post it

Hong kong pushing house prices and Isreal and the bbc

And a low water use garden

Sweet.

Ahhh, stupid world.

Cool.

[mashman]

Yet, the understanding remains unshared. Questions remain unanswered, I think those two things are related.

Again, if it were that easy, why is it not done on a small scale, to make the changes there and assimilate the rest of society that way?

I do not see any hypocrisy, so I would like to understand how you interpret it that way, would you elaborate?

I can't share your understanding. I can have a go, but to be honest, I get the feeling that that really isn't my job. I'm not saying that noone else could. Perhaps you could contact the Money Free Party and ask your questions in a civil manner and with a more open mind as you'd be dealing with someone else's perception of how they see it working. Plus the me bias would be out of the equation :D.

Ugh. I believe that you need the buy in of a majority vote in the country to get the ball rolling. Ubuntu. Or why the fuck are you here. I'm kind of at that stage. Dream small, great, understand that people are capable of stiflingly quick changes of mind (me included), it would seem to support the idea that they too may well be fed up with the shit way things are. The should be asked. Our resources like.

If



The tipping point for many of them will be when they are shown that a society can flourish when that link is removed

is the presumption of outcome, then you're removing the ability for that "many" to be the change. Stop calling for it if all you want to do is cut it off at the knees because it takes feelings and emotions and people into consideration in ways that it's nigh on impossible to measure. I see people being the change.

[bogan]

I can't share your understanding. I can have a go, but to be honest, I get the feeling that that really isn't my job. I'm not saying that noone else could. Perhaps you could contact the Money Free Party and ask your questions in a civil manner and with a more open mind as you'd be dealing with someone else's perception of how they see it working. Plus the me bias would be out of the equation :D.

Ugh. I believe that you need the buy in of a majority vote in the country to get the ball rolling. Ubuntu. Or why the fuck are you here. I'm kind of at that stage. Dream small, great, understand that people are capable of stiflingly quick changes of mind (me included), it would seem to support the idea that they too may well be fed up with the shit way things are. The should be asked. Our resources like.

If



is the presumption of outcome, then you're removing the ability for that "many" to be the change. Stop calling for it if all you want to do is cut it off at the knees because it takes feelings and emotions and people into consideration in ways that it's nigh on impossible to measure. I see people being the change.

That is the thing though, if we share it, it is neither mine nor yours.

What does a majority share facilitate that a voluntary minority cannot achieve for themselves though? And how is that a deal breaker for a minority starter society?

I do not see it that way at all, the starting people will be the change, those who join on at any time after that will also be the change. Just because you are shown that change works, does not prevent you from changing; it is quite the opposite in fact.

[mashman]

That is the thing though, if we share it, it is neither mine nor yours.

What does a majority share facilitate that a voluntary minority cannot achieve for themselves though? And how is that a deal breaker for a minority starter society?

I do not see it that way at all, the starting people will be the change, those who join on at any time after that will also be the change. Just because you are shown that change works, does not prevent you from changing; it is quite the opposite in fact.

Yes it is, it is mine and yours.

Nothing. I think those who want to go self sufficient should be allowed to and on their terms. A Resource Based Economy facilitates that without missing a beat and doesn't have the potential knock on affect of requiring some cuts to be made to essential services. In fact I think every human being deserves that same consideration. I consider it to be a deal breaker, because I'm sure these things have been tried before and eventually squeezed out by being affected by someone else's budget constraint. It's also like a gated community, whether it is meant to be or not because someone will always point the finger and miss the point of what they were trying to achieve. Shame really.

[bogan]

Yes it is, it is mine and yours.

Nothing. I think those who want to go self sufficient should be allowed to and on their terms. A Resource Based Economy facilitates that without missing a beat and doesn't have the potential knock on affect of requiring some cuts to be made to essential services. In fact I think every human being deserves that same consideration. I consider it to be a deal breaker, because I'm sure these things have been tried before and eventually squeezed out by being affected by someone else's budget constraint. It's also like a gated community, whether it is meant to be or not because someone will always point the finger and miss the point of what they were trying to achieve. Shame really.

If it works an rbe does those things, if it does not work cuts to essential services will occur.

Have such communities been tried and squeezed out in NZ?

[mashman]

If it works an rbe does those things, if it does not work cuts to essential services will occur.

Have such communities been tried and squeezed out in NZ?

That's happening anyway.

Not been here that long. Have there been?

[bogan]

That's happening anyway.

Not been here that long. Have there been?

It is, but there are mechanisms in place to limit that effect.

I've not been able to find any examples of them, I think it very much possible that nz is far enough below the radar that a community could show the merits of being internally money free before they were squeezed out at all. At which point it would just serve to raise attention to the cause anyway.

[Brian d marge]

It is, but there are mechanisms in place to limit that effect.

I've not been able to find any examples of them, I think it very much possible that nz is far enough below the radar that a community could show the merits of being internally money free before they were squeezed out at all. At which point it would just serve to raise attention to the cause anyway.
There are possibly communities up north that are already almost cash free
You have to be well below the radar trust me
The man loves his currency

[mashman]

It is, but there are mechanisms in place to limit that effect.

I've not been able to find any examples of them, I think it very much possible that nz is far enough below the radar that a community could show the merits of being internally money free before they were squeezed out at all. At which point it would just serve to raise attention to the cause anyway.

An R.B.E. is a mechanism that will limit that effect also, because it will be relying on the same people.

nz, uk, russia, the gorbals, sealand etc... as you say, it will likely have been tried in some fashion at some point. Oldrider posted the Guernsey Experiment a while ago. Smart idea to get something done, but eventually brought back into the financial fold that was wanted by others. Damned shame.

Been a few, and could still be by the looks of things (http://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/alternative-communities/)

[Akzle]

I've not been able to find any examples of them, I think it very much possible that nz is far enough below the radar that a community could show the merits of being internally money free before they were squeezed out at all. At which point it would just serve to raise attention to the cause anyway.

i wonder how hard you've looked, and where.

"intentional communities"
"the amish"

i knew of three between auckland and kaitaia in recent times. i believe theres still one in waitakere

not strictly money free, but defo aiming for "sustainable" in terms of farming, gardening, eco-builds (straw bale houses &c),

and yes, what killed at least one of them was largely pressures external - money.
within the community there was no need to "buy" stuff of others - everything was there for everyone.


There are possibly communities up north that are already almost cash free
You have to be well below the radar trust me
The man loves his currency

and south. thre's at least one hidey in the hills.

northaldn runs on boom and bust. just not with the rest of the economoney.

after growing season, we're cashed up. winter's pretty quiet for anyone who doesn't run indo'




anyway. i'm all about it. anyone who wants to come and be a hippy and live in a caravan and 'alp wiv me gardening, come on over!

[Gadget1]

Yes, and it's to a budget that dictates what they can do with policy etc... I get it.


No, I don't think you get anything. Even though people have posted good positive information you're still as lost as ever.

[Gadget1]

Perhaps you should ask Bogan for some of his tissues.

I'm doing nothing but laugh at you, so no.

What's even more hilarious is how some of you have families and are passing the loser mentality to them now too. They'll probably end up relying on handouts from the very system you hate. So, both losers and hypocrites.
.

Meanwhile, positive things are happening around the world, as has been posted, and you lot will still be bitter, but older, hypocritcal losers with a dynasty of the same.

Anyway, I'm off to spend some more money.

[Gadget1]

I dont give a flying . . .

Come back when you have something thats of interest

As a rule 6 post wonders fly in .
. red rep everyone then are never seen again . ,


My green rep count is far higher than the pathetic reds from you and your loser mates. I notice your coherence is slipping again, you really need to work on it.

If you can that is.

[mashman]

No, I don't think you get anything. Even though people have posted good positive information you're still as lost as ever.

Stop thinking that you know what I know and or are thinking, it's not only rude but makes you look completely ignorant. 'you got to accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative.' - The Andrews Sisters, ignoring the negative does not count as eliminating it, coz you have to address it in order to eliminate it. Lost indeed.

[mashman]

So, both losers and hypocrites..

Wah wah wah people are talking about things I can't understand and I don't know how to deal with it other than moan at them that they're being negative bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Go on, keep posting please.

[mashman]

FIFO ruining towns, families: inquiry (https://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/fifo-ruining-towns-families-inquiry-042809576.html)... what? you mean a lack of money is destroying communities :shit: OMG, quick, someone must be notified because the rest of the world could end up living under such stupid circumstances :tugger:

[oldrider]

FIFO ruining towns, families: inquiry (https://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/fifo-ruining-towns-families-inquiry-042809576.html)... what? you mean a lack of money is destroying communities :shit: OMG, quick, someone must be notified because the rest of the world could end up living under such stupid circumstances :tugger:

Most of the relatives and acquaintances that we are aware of involved in FIFO arrangements have ended in disaster for their relationships!

They say "absence makes the heart grow stronger" - but one should always consider - "who's heart"? - :heart: - :kick:

[Zedder]

Stop thinking that you know what I know and or are thinking, it's not only rude but makes you look completely ignorant. 'you got to accentuate the positive and eliminate the negative.' - The Andrews Sisters, ignoring the negative does not count as eliminating it, coz you have to address it in order to eliminate it. Lost indeed.


Lol, after 4-5 years of your ranting and raving on both your pet threads I'd say we all have a good idea what you're knowing and thinking.

[mashman]

Lol, after 4-5 years of your ranting and raving on both your pet threads I'd say we all have a good idea what you're knowing and thinking.

Given that most of the time you guys state that you don't understand, I find that highly unlikely. Then again, you guys just know better eh ;).

[mashman]

Most of the relatives and acquaintances that we are aware of involved in FIFO arrangements have ended in disaster for their relationships!

They say "absence makes the heart grow stronger" - but one should always consider - "who's heart"? - :heart: - :kick:

My brother in law has been working like that for must be kicking on 20 years. They recently hit a speed bump, but look to be sorting it out so I know it can work... having said that, he states that most of their "problems" were money related.

heh... the missus couldn't live without me, so I'm safe :shifty:.

[Zedder]

Given that most of the time you guys state that you don't understand, I find that highly unlikely. Then again, you guys just know better eh ;).


Nah, you just won't give anything concrete we can work with. Apart from plagiarisng that is.

[Zedder]

My brother in law has been working like that for must be kicking on 20 years. They recently hit a speed bump, but look to be sorting it out so I know it can work... having said that, he states that most of their "problems" were money related.

heh... the missus couldn't live without me, so I'm safe :shifty:.


So she's not working then? And you're the one making that "filthy" stuff called money. Interesting ....

[Katman]

So she's not working then? And you're the one making that "filthy" stuff called money. Interesting ....

See, that's the moronic sort of argument that people use when they call Greenies hypocrites for driving cars.

[bogan]

An R.B.E. is a mechanism that will limit that effect also, because it will be relying on the same people.

nz, uk, russia, the gorbals, sealand etc... as you say, it will likely have been tried in some fashion at some point. Oldrider posted the Guernsey Experiment a while ago. Smart idea to get something done, but eventually brought back into the financial fold that was wanted by others. Damned shame.

Been a few, and could still be by the looks of things (http://my.christchurchcitylibraries.com/alternative-communities/)

Reliance is not such a strong mechansim, if it worked we could just rely on people to follow to the laws and our prisons would be empty. Or to put it another way, are you going to rely on those who currently covet power and greed to just donate their assets? to just stop living the high life?

The Guernsey Experiment is an interesting concept; but it does seem like they chose to go with the bankers instead. Being almost 200 years ago makes things a little different too.

Interesting, I wonder if any of those are attempting growth of the money free ideals...

[mashman]

Nah, you just won't give anything concrete we can work with. Apart from plagiarisng that is.

I do. When you realise that you can value anything you like at any value you like (because that already happens e.g. diamonds worth more than bread), there are no more hurdles and the money becomes irrelevant. But by all means carry on saying that you don't have enough information, because all you are doing is setting your own limits... and "blaming" me for your shortcomings leaves me laughing needing to go wee wee.

In that paragraph above there is every single piece of information you need in order to accept that an R.B.E. is not only possible, but is completely achievable.

[mashman]

So she's not working then? And you're the one making that "filthy" stuff called money. Interesting ....

Sorry, not sure what your point is there?

[mashman]

Reliance is not such a strong mechansim, if it worked we could just rely on people to follow to the laws and our prisons would be empty. Or to put it another way, are you going to rely on those who currently covet power and greed to just donate their assets? to just stop living the high life?

The Guernsey Experiment is an interesting concept; but it does seem like they chose to go with the bankers instead. Being almost 200 years ago makes things a little different too.

Interesting, I wonder if any of those are attempting growth of the money free ideals...

It does work right at this moment in time. You'd have to be really ignorant not to have noticed that, or really negative, or just thick. They won't have to donate their assets nor stop living the high life :facepalm: I'll go with thick.

Chose to go with them despite having a system that was by far superior to the debt based system being offered to them? bwaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaa... I know it was 200 years ago, but all that's different between our generation and theirs is the access to more up to date knowledge.

Assuming that they know about Resource Based Economy. Be interesting thing to know mind.

[bogan]

It does work right at this moment in time. You'd have to be really ignorant not to have noticed that, or really negative, or just thick. They won't have to donate their assets nor stop living the high life :facepalm: I'll go with thick.

Chose to go with them despite having a system that was by far superior to the debt based system being offered to them? bwaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaa... I know it was 200 years ago, but all that's different between our generation and theirs is the access to more up to date knowledge.

Assuming that they know about Resource Based Economy. Be interesting thing to know mind.

Only in a limited context, thus the backup plans and 'stick' approaches (which for many is the reason it works). And that is where I understand you, but have to strongly disagree. If the high life is purchasing a new holiday home every 5-10 years, new cars every year, staying at hotels and going on overseas trips etc; how can the system possibly cope with allowing everyone that privilege?

Did they not choose it then? No, 200 years ago there was very very limited international trade, and no use for the exchange rates that we rely on today.

Safe to say they do know it since they are living it. I might see about getting that book...

[Ocean1]

FIFO ruining towns, families: inquiry (https://nz.finance.yahoo.com/news/fifo-ruining-towns-families-inquiry-042809576.html)... what? you mean a lack of money is destroying communities :shit: OMG, quick, someone must be notified because the rest of the world could end up living under such stupid circumstances :tugger:

The locals are bleating about the lack of money, they'd appreciate your cargo cult bullshit about as much as a cup of cold vomit.

Same old shit, the locals, having raped the local industries since forever are now bleating because they can't compete with employees flown in at huge cost from half way across the country.

Same old solution: Earn your keep.

[Ocean1]

I do. When you realise that you can value anything you like at any value you like (because that already happens e.g. diamonds worth more than bread), there are no more hurdles and the money becomes irrelevant.


It does work right at this moment in time. You'd have to be really ignorant not to have noticed that, or really negative, or just thick. They won't have to donate their assets nor stop living the high life :facepalm: I'll go with thick.

What's thick is turning a blind eye to the fact that what's currently working is people, (including you) using money to value bread and diamonds.

Because the alternative is carrying around a bunch of bread or diamonds, or on alternate days in Mashland just giving/taking bread or diamonds 'cause there's no money and therefore no difference in value.

Now that's fucking thick.

[mashman]

Only in a limited context, thus the backup plans and 'stick' approaches (which for many is the reason it works). And that is where I understand you, but have to strongly disagree. If the high life is purchasing a new holiday home every 5-10 years, new cars every year, staying at hotels and going on overseas trips etc; how can the system possibly cope with allowing everyone that privilege?

Did they not choose it then? No, 200 years ago there was very very limited international trade, and no use for the exchange rates that we rely on today.

Safe to say they do know it since they are living it. I might see about getting that book...

Holiday homes will exist, Cars will exist, hotels will exist, overseas trips will exist. Exactly what will have been lost? Everyone will have that privilege, because we can share.

"English bankers set up branches in the island and brought the population around to orthodox rules. “It was unsound,“ they said, “to let the government finance its enterprises without getting into debt.”

There was some resistance, but the bankers won their point, with their usual methods, and on October 9, 1836, the States of Guernsey had abdicated their sovereign prerogative over the control of the volume of money. From then on, the amount of the national currency decreased gradually, and was replaced by money issued by private bankers in the form of loans getting the island into debt.".

Could be an interesting read.

[mashman]

The locals are bleating about the lack of money, they'd appreciate your cargo cult bullshit about as much as a cup of cold vomit.

Same old shit, the locals, having raped the local industries since forever are now bleating because they can't compete with employees flown in at huge cost from half way across the country.

Same old solution: Earn your keep.

Well they're not bleating about it, they're bleating about how your stupid system works.

Can't compete? They're supporting them people you fucknuckle. Without them they'd have to fly in food and accommodation too :facepalm: Mr myopia strikes again.

Same old solution giving rise to all too familiar outcomes.

[mashman]

What's thick is turning a blind eye to the fact that what's currently working is people, (including you) using money to value bread and diamonds.

Because the alternative is carrying around a bunch of bread or diamonds, or on alternate days in Mashland just giving/taking bread or diamonds 'cause there's no money and therefore no difference in value.

Now that's fucking thick.

You just did it again by trying to excuse what goes on under the guise of it not being able to be any other way. As fucktarded as that it, it is EXCEPTIONALLY hilarious. Thanks.

No it isn't, the alternative is using the same transport and infrastructure to shift the same food to the same places only based on need and not financial viability.

I completely agree with your summation of the content of your post. It is fuckin thick.

[bogan]

Holiday homes will exist, Cars will exist, hotels will exist, overseas trips will exist. Exactly what will have been lost? Everyone will have that privilege, because we can share.

"English bankers set up branches in the island and brought the population around to orthodox rules. “It was unsound,“ they said, “to let the government finance its enterprises without getting into debt.”

There was some resistance, but the bankers won their point, with their usual methods, and on October 9, 1836, the States of Guernsey had abdicated their sovereign prerogative over the control of the volume of money. From then on, the amount of the national currency decreased gradually, and was replaced by money issued by private bankers in the form of loans getting the island into debt.".

Could be an interesting read.

But will they? Do you think those who lust for power and greed will share what they own?

Indeed, they convinced the people to chose banking, the bankers did not bring in tanks and guns and force that choice.

[Katman]

But will they? Do you think those who lust for power and greed will share what they own?


Those who lust for power and greed will be lined up against a wall.

[bogan]

Those who lust for power and greed will be lined up against a wall.

How will said society determine who that is?

[Katman]

How will said society determine who that is?

I'll choose.

[bogan]

I'll choose.

And this is the point where we share an understanding of your utopia, but in my opinion it is no utopia at all, just a dictatorship.

[mashman]

But will they? Do you think those who lust for power and greed will share what they own?

Indeed, they convinced the people to chose banking, the bankers did not bring in tanks and guns and force that choice.

The way I see it: they won't own anything (because they currently don't), but they will (remain) be the primary custodian and will have absolute power over the resource unless society deems otherwise... in exactly the same way society currently works in regards to ownership... except with the sharing element added.

"“It was unsound,“ they said, “to let the government finance its enterprises without getting into debt.”" and you say that people saw the sense in this even though they had successfully managed not to get into debt and still had an excellent standard of living? Not sure what you're smoking, but pass it man.

[Katman]

And this is the point where we share an understanding of your utopia, but in my opinion it is no utopia at all, just a dictatorship.

Perhaps you shouldn't take everything so seriously.

[Brian d marge]

What's thick is turning a blind eye to the fact that what's currently working is people, (including you) using money to value bread and diamonds.

Because the alternative is carrying around a bunch of bread or diamonds, or on alternate days in Mashland just giving/taking bread or diamonds 'cause there's no money and therefore no difference in value.

Now that's fucking thick.

hows those House prices ....

food prices ....

wages.....

oh no I forgot ...you are fine

my bad carry on


Stephen

[bogan]

The way I see it: they won't own anything (because they currently don't), but they will (remain) be the primary custodian and will have absolute power over the resource unless society deems otherwise... in exactly the same way society currently works in regards to ownership... except with the sharing element added.

"“It was unsound,“ they said, “to let the government finance its enterprises without getting into debt.”" and you say that people saw the sense in this even though they had successfully managed not to get into debt and still had an excellent standard of living? Not sure what you're smoking, but pass it man.

So to deal with the greedy, society would re-purpose assets they were not using? is this on a daily basis, or a permanent one? How would this be decided?

Their standard of living would be considered very poor by today's standard though I would think. Perhaps they realised to move forward, they had to chose debt; regardless the reason, debt is what they chose.

Perhaps you shouldn't take everything so seriously.

Perhaps you should not take utopian murder so lightly...

[mashman]

Those who lust for power and greed will be lined up against a wall.

Nah, they'll be snuffed out while they sleep.


How will said society determine who that is?

In exactly the same way that society currently decides such... you know, courts, general consensus etc... That and it'll be less easy for "them" to court power as they'll stick out like a sore thumb in an R.B.E. All you need is money in this world and you can murder thousands of people and get away with it. No money = drastically reduced influence as they will have to buy the support for their powerbase in another way. Much better way to find out what is fair and who really needs access to what.

[mashman]

So to deal with the greedy, society would re-purpose assets they were not using? is this on a daily basis, or a permanent one? How would this be decided?

Their standard of living would be considered very poor by today's standard though I would think. Perhaps they realised to move forward, they had to chose debt; regardless the reason, debt is what they chose.


Perhaps you should not take utopian murder so lightly...

The greedy won't be being dealt with... they'll find their own way. You asked about how everyone could have access to those resources, now you know how. It will be decided by consensus. Perhaps the consensus will be that the resource will be "publicly" available once the "owner" has died. There are many ways to skin that cat.

Eh? They had no money because of the Bankers. They decided to move forwards and print their own without debt. Who chose the debt? The entire island? In which case, you're gonna have to post up some proof because what I have posted really does point to quite the opposite of a free choice.

[bogan]

In exactly the same way that society currently decides such... you know, courts, general consensus etc... That and it'll be less easy for "them" to court power as they'll stick out like a sore thumb in an R.B.E. All you need is money in this world and you can murder thousands of people and get away with it. No money = drastically reduced influence as they will have to buy the support for their powerbase in another way. Much better way to find out what is fair and who really needs access to what.

Society does not currently decide such things through the courts though. You can own hundreds of houses and refuse to let anyone in them. And if the process is so long to seize? (I'm not sure if it was temporary or permanent) an asset, what is the process for acquiring one? could they not just go get more and clog up the legal system?
What influence, and what powerbase? if everything is free why would either exist at all?

[bogan]

The greedy won't be being dealt with... they'll find their own way. You asked about how everyone could have access to those resources, now you know how. It will be decided by consensus. Perhaps the consensus will be that the resource will be "publicly" available once the "owner" has died. There are many ways to skin that cat.

Eh? They had no money because of the Bankers. They decided to move forwards and print their own without debt. Who chose the debt? The entire island? In which case, you're gonna have to post up some proof because what I have posted really does point to quite the opposite of a free choice.

Yet their own way would deprive society of the resources it needs. Decided by consensus is different to allowing the greed to have their own way. Ie, greedies own way is owning 10 houses and cars etc, nobody else to use; consensus decision is saying no, we will leave you with two of your choice and take the rest.

The islands leaders, the same people who chose to print their own without debt. The aritcle does not make a distinction with whom chose what at which point, just that it was chosen, not forced.

[Brian d marge]

My green rep count is far higher than the pathetic reds from you and your loser mates. I notice your coherence is slipping again, you really need to work on it.

If you can that is.

If mine is slipping , yours is on a shinkansen

I don't give out red ... what I do Is call a spade......... a spade and post it here .

My coherence is fine , its your end thats broken ,

possible causes; Narrow mind , lack of education, reading was difficult at school ....

After spending a good portion of my life travelling. I can tell you , many people in NZ have the same trait....as in... I dont understand you, so YOU must be a moron.

I think you fit that bill rather well

[mashman]

Society does not currently decide such things through the courts though. You can own hundreds of houses and refuse to let anyone in them. And if the process is so long to seize? (I'm not sure if it was temporary or permanent) an asset, what is the process for acquiring one? could they not just go get more and clog up the legal system?
What influence, and what powerbase? if everything is free why would either exist at all?

You first have to sign "ownership" papers which are nothing more than a lease. They are the legalities of ownership. Such a waste leaving such things empty. Seize? Some house is empty and someone needs a house to live in, job done no process required. Not sure how you're clogging up the legal system over ownership. On paper they will still own the asset, but society will deem how that asset is to be used if it deemed to be under utilised.
The influence that is drastically reduced by people not being able to buy other people, the one you inferred: "But will they? Do you think those who lust for power and greed will share what they own?". Exactly, if everything is free that powerbase will be much harder to attain.

[bogan]

You first have to sign "ownership" papers which are nothing more than a lease. They are the legalities of ownership. Such a waste leaving such things empty. Seize? Some house is empty and someone needs a house to live in, job done no process required. Not sure how you're clogging up the legal system over ownership. On paper they will still own the asset, but society will deem how that asset is to be used if it deemed to be under utilised.
The influence that is drastically reduced by people not being able to buy other people, the one you inferred: "But will they? Do you think those who lust for power and greed will share what they own?". Exactly, if everything is free that powerbase will be much harder to attain.

That is exactly what forced donations of assets is. Sure there is still paper ownership somewhere around, but if empty houses can be moved into then that is asset donation by force. The other point to that is expensive assets, greedy people could still choose a 20 bedroom homestead to live in, staff with cooks and cleaners and top quality food; while doing no work at all. How could said society deal with them?

Which I can understand, but it comes back to the balance of work in vs work out. I do not believe it will come anywhere near close enough to support society.

[mashman]

Yet their own way would deprive society of the resources it needs. Decided by consensus is different to allowing the greed to have their own way. Ie, greedies own way is owning 10 houses and cars etc, nobody else to use; consensus decision is saying no, we will leave you with two of your choice and take the rest.

The islands leaders, the same people who chose to print their own without debt. The aritcle does not make a distinction with whom chose what at which point, just that it was chosen, not forced.

See the above wrt influence and money. With the financial system, they can deprive, and do deprive people of resources they need. There's no reason to stop the greedy from trying to exert their influence and get their way... but they should NOT be able to buy it. You can't drive in or live in every car or house at the same time. Consensus saying, "stop being a cunt and let people use that which you aren't". If further action is required, I'm sure society can call them economic terrorists and have them legally shot using their own laws.

What are bankers "usual methods"? Therein lies the answer as to chosen or coerced.

[mashman]

That is exactly what forced donations of assets is. Sure there is still paper ownership somewhere around, but if empty houses can be moved into then that is asset donation by force. The other point to that is expensive assets, greedy people could still choose a 20 bedroom homestead to live in, staff with cooks and cleaners and top quality food; while doing no work at all. How could said society deal with them?

Which I can understand, but it comes back to the balance of work in vs work out. I do not believe it will come anywhere near close enough to support society.

It's not by force, it's by consensus. Society would deal with that fine... unless of course people decide not to work for the "owner" of the house.

Given that many financially related people will be without jobs and available to train in anything they choose without financial penalty, there will be more people to dig in... and I believe that the majority of them will.

[Zedder]

See, that's the moronic sort of argument that people use when they call Greenies hypocrites for driving cars.

There is no argument. The use of the word filthy in relation to the money was in deference to mashmans apparent dislike of it and the info he supplied helps build up more of a picture.

But to a nasty, bitter cunt like you, something like that is just a "red flag to a bull".

[Zedder]

Sorry, not sure what your point is there?

See what I posted to nasty, bitter cunt Katman. Gadget1 and others are on the mark about him.

[Zedder]

If mine is slipping , yours is on a shinkansen

I don't give out red ... what I do Is call a spade......... a spade and post it here .

My coherence is fine , its your end thats broken ,

possible causes; Narrow mind , lack of education, reading was difficult at school ....

After spending a good portion of my life travelling. I can tell you , many people in NZ have the same trait....as in... I dont understand you, so YOU must be a moron.

I think you fit that bill rather well

Lol, from what I know of the guy he's none of what you've written. He just hates people who post crap in the way you do.

[bogan]

See the above wrt influence and money. With the financial system, they can deprive, and do deprive people of resources they need. There's no reason to stop the greedy from trying to exert their influence and get their way... but they should NOT be able to buy it. You can't drive in or live in every car or house at the same time. Consensus saying, "stop being a cunt and let people use that which you aren't". If further action is required, I'm sure society can call them economic terrorists and have them legally shot using their own laws.

What are bankers "usual methods"? Therein lies the answer as to chosen or coerced.

I see what you mean, but that is forced donation.

Usual method are to leverage debt, but said island didn't have any, so I'm thinking they convinced them with explanations and shared understanding.


It's not by force, it's by consensus. Society would deal with that fine... unless of course people decide not to work for the "owner" of the house.

Given that many financially related people will be without jobs and available to train in anything they choose without financial penalty, there will be more people to dig in... and I believe that the majority of them will.

The society forces its consensus onto the asset owner.

I believe many in other jobs will reduce their work output and/or increase their needs/wants. I know I would.

[Brian d marge]

Lol, from what I know of the guy he's none of what you've written. He just hates people who post crap in the way you do.

oh...... now that did surprise me

not



I notice that you also, quite happy to sling..... but never? post any constructive evidence ..

balls in both of your courts ( the last crap I posted was about the washed apples off to south africa .....)

go on then ......if Im posting crap

Prove it

[Katman]

See what I posted to nasty, bitter cunt Katman. Gadget1 and others are on the mark about him.

Fuck, you guys are going to run out of tissues at this rate.

[Gadget1]

Fuck, you guys are going to run out of tissues at this rate.

Do you need tampons every month? Most cunts do.

[Gadget1]

oh...... now that did surprise me

not



I notice that you also, quite happy to sling..... but never? post any constructive evidence ..

balls in both of your courts ( the last crap I posted was about the washed apples off to south africa .....)

go on then ......if Im posting crap

Prove it


What I actually PMed Zedder was: "That prick looks like he mostly posts when he's pissed".

[Brian d marge]

What I actually PMed Zedder was: "That prick looks like he mostly posts when he's pissed".
Guilty as charged and i still say

If i post crap

Prove it

Ball your court

Typed slowly and soberly for your benefit

[mashman]

See what I posted to nasty, bitter cunt Katman. Gadget1 and others are on the mark about him.

Really? I read Katman's retorts as, back yourself up or shut the fuck up. Hey ho.

On a potentially comedic note: Fuck dawg that was nasty and bitter, almost cuntlike. Interesting company you choose to side with :shifty:.

[Zedder]

Really? I read Katman's retorts as, back yourself up or shut the fuck up. Hey ho.

On a potentially comedic note: Fuck dawg that was nasty and bitter, almost cuntlike. Interesting company you choose to side with :shifty:.


As I wrote before, there was no argument. You need to stop reading so much into things mushman.

[Katman]

Interesting company you choose to side with :shifty:.

<img src="http://www.destroythebrain.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/the-human-centipede-wallpaper_111317-1152x864.jpg"/>

Gadget, Zedder and Husaberg.

Maha will be along soon to join them.

[Gadget1]

Guilty as charged and i still say

If i post crap

Prove it

Ball your court

Typed slowly and soberly for your benefit


A lot better but ffs man, it's not even all on the same line, and what's with all the capitals?

[Brian d marge]

As I wrote before, there was no argument. You need to stop reading so much into things mushman.
No mashie has it nail on head

Very simple

If its crap

Point it out and back it up

Here , of the top of head are the last claims ive made

House and food prices in nz

Apple from britain off to south africa

And bogan to outline his utopia . . He may have done but i might have missed it

Oh as g and z are crap at anagrams and missed the joke

And anagram of brian dmarge is barring mead

Twas a hint . . . But one obviously flew too high over the cockoos nest

Any way Im quite happy to wait . . . .

[bogan]

Apple from britain off to south africa

And bogan to outline his utopia . . He may have done but i might have missed it

This may be what zedder and others have trouble with; you've left out the most important part, which is that the same apples come back after only (?) being washed and waxed; without mentioning that point it is just exports. And you didn't back up the and back bit other than showing that other people say the same thing you did.

I did.


Bigger picture, figure out a ways make democracy a whole lot less representative and more direct. I'd like to see the use IT infrastructure to allow citizens to vote directly on issues. Voters would still elect representatives to hold their votes (or a proportion thereof) to place by proxy if voters do not place them on their own account.

Smaller picture, ensure my own production exceeds my needs/wants by a great enough amount to support not only my family, but support others prior to them becoming self sufficiently productive so they can in turn support more. That support would be voluntarily given on a by merit basis. As that network expands into a sub-society the needs/wants can be filled more easily due to the culture of sharing/giving that is promoted.

[mashman]

I see what you mean, but that is forced donation.

Usual method are to leverage debt, but said island didn't have any, so I'm thinking they convinced them with explanations and shared understanding.

When looked at from the financial economy perspective, true, that's how it will look to many people. How many though? What a lovely question.

Like, we'll take some of your land or infrastructure or something that we deem to be of value enough, and we will reconnect you to the mainland and make you rich. that usual method?



The society forces its consensus onto the asset owner.

I believe many in other jobs will reduce their work output and/or increase their needs/wants. I know I would.

No. It asks for permission and if possible offers some form of recognition (new hospital/university/building named after them or something). If permission is not given and the "asset" is of strategic importance to the country, then I would imagine that said "asset" "owner" is a white muthafucka and that unfortunately, as can currently happy to your or my "stuff", the needs of the country must come first sometimes.

You mean you'd become a bludger?

[mashman]

Fuck, you guys are going to run out of tissues at this rate.

Fucksake don't tell them that. They'll get some delivered now, gah. They would have completely run out before thinking about giving us a break/going shopping for tissues... and I suspect some vaseline :blip:

[mashman]

As I wrote before, there was no argument. You need to stop reading so much into things mushman.

I thought it harsh, my bad.

[mashman]

And bogan to outline his utopia . . He may have done but i might have missed it

Resource Based Economy organically grown with community after community joining over no specified time limit. Quite possibly in order to allow many communities to try the same things different ways in order for them to find the most efficient ways of doing things for future generations and lmuch other cool stuff that goes whizz bang too.

Close enough?

[Gadget1]

Gadget, Zedder and Husaberg.

Maha will be along soon to join them.


Nah, there's only three so it must be you, musho and axhole. It's no good trying to include someone who's obviously not there.

[bogan]

When looked at from the financial economy perspective, true, that's how it will look to many people. How many though? What a lovely question.

Like, we'll take some of your land or infrastructure or something that we deem to be of value enough, and we will reconnect you to the mainland and make you rich. that usual method?



No. It asks for permission and if possible offers some form of recognition (new hospital/university/building named after them or something). If permission is not given and the "asset" is of strategic importance to the country, then I would imagine that said "asset" "owner" is a white muthafucka and that unfortunately, as can currently happy to your or my "stuff", the needs of the country must come first sometimes.

You mean you'd become a bludger?

See, shared understanding at work :D

Yes, that usual trade method, not coercion.

Which is a yes to forcing in some instances. In the same way that we are forced to pay taxes.

No, I mean that I value my work output and potential future work output at a higher value than the free market does.


Resource Based Economy organically grown with community after community joining over no specified time limit. Quite possibly in order to allow many communities to try the same things different ways in order for them to find the most efficient ways of doing things for future generations and lmuch other cool stuff that goes whizz bang too.

Close enough?

Yes

[Gadget1]

This may be what zedder and others have trouble with; you've left out the most important part, which is that the same apples come back after only (?) being washed and waxed; without mentioning that point it is just exports. And you didn't back up the and back bit other than showing that other people say the same thing you did.

I did.

Yep, mostly that bogan but even his post 986, wtf does all that shit about "airstrip one with the windmill and all" mean?

And he admits to posting while he's pissed as well. No wonder it comes out weird.

[Brian d marge]

Yep, mostly that bogan but even his post 986, wtf does all that shit about "airstrip one with the windmill and all" mean?

And he admits to posting while he's pissed as well. No wonder it comes out weird.
Try reading sometimes

[bogan]

Yep, mostly that bogan but even his post 986, wtf does all that shit about "airstrip one with the windmill and all" mean?

And he admits to posting while he's pissed as well. No wonder it comes out weird.

If I had to guess it would be a wellington reference as they have an airport and windmill.

But making us guess like that is a very inefficient and conflictive way to communicate.

[Gadget1]

Try reading sometimes


Try fucking explaining yourself better!

[mashman]

See, shared understanding at work :D

Yes, that usual trade method, not coercion.

Which is a yes to forcing in some instances. In the same way that we are forced to pay taxes.

No, I mean that I value my work output and potential future work output at a higher value than the free market does.

I'd hardly call it a shared understanding, but I can see why you might think it that way :shifty:.

No, that's economic blackmail.

Absolutely.

Entitled bludger it is then.

[mashman]

Gadget, Zedder and Husaberg.

Gadget, Zedder and Husaberg.

Maha will be along soon to join them.

bwaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaa

[Brian d marge]

Try fucking explaining yourself better!
I typed as slow as i could and its not my fault you havent read


2 of the most famous books in the english language

[bogan]

I'd hardly call it a shared understanding, but I can see why you might think it that way :shifty:.

No, that's economic blackmail.

Absolutely.

Entitled bludger it is then.

What I mean is we both understand why you think as you do; unless you were being untruthful or have otherwise changed your mind.

Not by the common definition, as there was no coercion.

Only if you continue to think in a financial sense. In a moneyless utopia there is no way to value one's work output, no way to measure how one's needs/wants stack up against it. So the term bludger is simply not applicable.

[Gadget1]

If I had to guess it would be a wellington reference as they have an airport and windmill.

But making us guess like that is a very inefficient and conflictive way to communicate.


Yeah possibly so bogan. He probably thinks he's clever doing it that way.

[Gadget1]

I typed as slow as i could and its not my fault you havent read


2 of the most famous books in the english language


Yeah so bogan's wrong as well then.

[mashman]

Try fucking explaining yourself better!

He does fine... the deficiency is yours.

[Katman]

Yeah so bogan's wrong as well then.

Why should that surprise you?

[Brian d marge]

Yeah possibly so bogan. He probably thinks he's clever doing it that way.
No i just assumed incorrectly

A truly clever person would have asked a question

Or am I assuming again

As for

Wellington airport , , . .

Why . . .oh why . . Would I be talking about a windmill in wellington airport which isnt even called airport 1

It may have a landing strip called landing strip 1
Which may unusually may have a windmill . . . Bit dangerous i would assume

Sharp 7 will be on soon

[bogan]

No i just assumed incorrectly

A truly clever person would have asked a question

Or am I assuming again

As for

Wellington airport , , . .

Why . . .oh why . . Would I be talking about a windmill in wellington airport which isnt even called airport 1

It may have a landing strip called landing strip 1
Which may unusually may have a windmill . . . Bit dangerous i would assume

Sharp 7 will be on soon

He has asked the question. Do you plan on answering it?

I think a truly clever person would use the english language to most efficiently convey the information that the desire to convey.

Or to ask another question, what purpose does ambiguity serve?

[mashman]

What I mean is we both understand why you think as you do; unless you were being untruthful or have otherwise changed your mind.

Not by the common definition, as there was no coercion.

Only if you continue to think in a financial sense. In a moneyless utopia there is no way to value one's work output, no way to measure how one's needs/wants stack up against it. So the term bludger is simply not applicable.

We will have arrived at a similar answer through vastly different thought processes, of that I am sure.

So, the alternative being deprived of what the world has to offer by a bank isn't blackmail?

True. Of course you can measure the value of one's work and output :facepalm:. Longevity, quality, application, looks etc... I know eh, people will have to show some form of social responsibility. The libertarians and right wing will be pissed.

[Brian d marge]

This may be what zedder and others have trouble with; you've left out the most important part, which is that the same apples come back after only (?) being washed and waxed; without mentioning that point it is just exports. And you didn't back up the and back bit other than showing that other people say the same thing you did.

I did.

The backing it up part I did

Twice

Now im not in a position tocheck the original post as im using the phone to send hence the capitalizationand lower cases etc
Its a pain to type on

So yes Mr b youmay will be right but as I pointed out in another post later on

If im not sure . .then i will usually . . Of line email a question to clarify .

Its a good trick this . . .airport 1

Copy paste google

Omg so thats what he meant . . .

Hes being a smart arse

Kb reply button

Insert appropriate reply

Send

[bogan]

We will have arrived at a similar answer through vastly different thought processes, of that I am sure.

So, the alternative being deprived of what the world has to offer by a bank isn't blackmail?

True. Of course you can measure the value of one's work and output :facepalm:. Longevity, quality, application, looks etc... I know eh, people will have to show some form of social responsibility. The libertarians and right wing will be pissed.

Depends on what you mean by answer, I don't think your answer of a moneyless system is any good. But I do understand what that answer entails, and how you have come to it.

No, that's just trading. I don't believe there was any mention of the 'bankers' blockading the island to prevent other trade routes?

Those are judgment values, they are not universally comparable. There is no way to say that the work a gardener does equates to the production of say, a TV.

They will have to show social responsibility for it to work, if they don't then it simply does not work; in such a system not working is both an option for any individual, and the system as a whole. Lets not overlook just how open to abuse that is as well; those who wish it to fail can literally just take an all expenses paid holiday to achieve that goal.

[bogan]

The backing it up part I did

Twice

Now im not in a position tocheck the original post as im using the phone to send hence the capitalizationand lower cases etc
Its a pain to type on

So yes Mr b youmay will be right but as I pointed out in another post later on

If im not sure . .then i will usually . . Of line email a question to clarify .

Its a good trick this . . .airport 1

Copy paste google

Omg so thats what he meant . . .

Hes being a smart arse

Kb reply button

Insert appropriate reply

Send

No, you found other's who said the same thing you did. You have not posted where that original information came from. That is the important bit, the facts behind a story, not how often the story is told. Snopes for example, is full of stories which have been told time and time again, to the point they are regarded as common knowledge, but are factually inaccurate.

Is it "airport 1" or "airstrip one" I get heathrow and nations of 1984 respectively when googling them.

You may have thought you were being a smart arse by posting a witty ambiguity, but it serves no practical purpose, especially if it is too obscure to be obvious. I'd have to say gadget is right on this one, your english needs a lot of work.

[Brian d marge]

I did.
I did miss it sorry
So you are decentralizing the voting what about the government
Keep them the same?

The production side is what we have been saying all along

But you havent addressed the money

Mashie reckons it can work without money
I can see his point but cannot see it working in this day and age . . .possibly on a community level maybe

I feel that a non debt based money is more workable in a decentralized structure

The current. . lets build a windmill utopia . . . we are following now will just end in tears

Maybe I should buy a diary . ,bit of a risk I know . . .but


Signed

The old Major

[Brian d marge]

No, you found other's who said the same thing you did. You have not posted where that original information came from. That is the important bit, the facts behind a story, not how often the story is told. Snopes for example, is full of stories which have been told time and time again, to the point they are regarded as common knowledge, but are factually inaccurate.

Is it "airport 1" or "airstrip one" I get heathrow and nations of 1984 respectively when googling them.

You may have thought you were being a smart arse by posting a witty ambiguity, but it serves no practical purpose, especially if it is too obscure to be obvious. I'd have to say gadget is right on this one, your english needs a lot of work.
Which one doyou suppose i would be refering to

No you need to use what god gave you

Sharp 7 should be starting now

[bogan]

I did miss it sorry
So you are decentralizing the voting what about the government
Keep them the same?

The production side is what we have been saying all along

But you havent addressed the money

Mashie reckons it can work without money
I can see his point but cannot see it working in this day and age . . .possibly on a community level maybe

I feel that a non debt based money is more workable in a decentralized structure

The current. . lets build a windmill utopia . . . we are following now will just end in tears

Maybe I should buy a diary . ,bit of a risk I know . . .but


Signed

The old Major

No it is still a central govt, just one that allows input from all voters on all votable issues.

Yes keep the same govt.

I have no argument with the production side of what has been said all along. Money is not something I believe needs addressing, we will simply leave it behind when all are wealthy enough to just say, nah don't worry about paying for that, I got you covered.

Non debt based money is something that would be fairly central to any such emergent community anyway.

I have no idea of what you mean by windmill utopia or why buying a diary is relevant.


Which one doyou suppose i would be refering to

No you need to use what god gave you

Sharp 7 should be starting now

I don't know, which one is it?

I do not believe that god gave me anything so am unsure what I should be using, and what I should be using it for.

I fail to see the relevance of 7 sharp.

You still have not addressed why the repetition of a story is valid reason to believe it.

[mashman]

Depends on what you mean by answer, I don't think your answer of a moneyless system is any good. But I do understand what that answer entails, and how you have come to it.

No, that's just trading. I don't believe there was any mention of the 'bankers' blockading the island to prevent other trade routes?

Those are judgment values, they are not universally comparable. There is no way to say that the work a gardener does equates to the production of say, a TV.

They will have to show social responsibility for it to work, if they don't then it simply does not work; in such a system not working is both an option for any individual, and the system as a whole. Lets not overlook just how open to abuse that is as well; those who wish it to fail can literally just take an all expenses paid holiday to achieve that goal.

You have mentioned it before. What does it entail and how have I come to it?

No, it's blackmail. Banks are banks.

They are comparable because I say so. Just like someone says that govt bonds have value. If you need a gardener and/or a tv, if one is available, then there is no problem, otherwise, order one. Yes it the system is open to abuse. No worries on the financial front, because we can just print more money, or at the very least revalue the price of hammers... and quite possibly throw the fucker in jail for economic terrorism on his return... or cancel his credit card... or or or or or or or whatever the socially responsible thing to about it is. So many answers.

[bogan]

You have mentioned it before. What does it entail and how have I come to it?

No, it's blackmail. Banks are banks.

They are comparable because I say so. Just like someone says that govt bonds have value. If you need a gardener and/or a tv, if one is available, then there is no problem, otherwise, order one. Yes it the system is open to abuse. No worries on the financial front, because we can just print more money, or at the very least revalue the price of hammers... and quite possibly throw the fucker in jail for economic terrorism on his return... or cancel his credit card... or or or or or or or whatever the socially responsible thing to about it is. So many answers.

It entails the removal of money, and dispersal of good/services to citizens as they determine their needs to be. The citizens also determine whether and how assets are claimed from individuals who are not using them.

It is not blackmail because there is no coercion, banks offered the service, and the people chose to take it. They were free to refuse it.

Yet the comparison you would make, is not one I would share, or others of society would share; I'd be adamant my efforts were equal to my acquisitions. Who are you to tell me different?

To do what with? Printed currency has no value in a moneyless society, the value of hammers is irrelevant when citizens can take them at will. How will you determine who is an economic terrorist and who is just having a holiday? Why would canceling a credit card do anything when the society does not use money anyway? (I'm talking about a holiday within NZ here).

[Brian d marge]

No it is still a central govt, just one that allows input from all voters on all votable issues.

Yes keep the same govt.

（So how do you a. Keep corruption out .etc . .influences from outside sources with views harmful to our society)

I have no argument with the production side of what has been said all along. Money is not something I believe needs addressing, we will simply leave it behind when all are wealthy enough to just say, nah don't worry about paying for that, I got you covered.

Non debt based money is something that would be fairly central to any such emergent community anyway.

(Agreed but see my first comment )

I have no idea of what you mean by windmill utopia or why buying a diary is relevant.
( that was me doing that deliberatly to get u to exercise that grey matter)



I don't know, which one is it?

I do not believe that god gave me anything so am unsure what I should be using, and what I should be using it for.

I fail to see the relevance of 7 sharp.

You still have not addressed why the repetition of a story is valid reason to believe it.

Sorry my comments are in brackets . . Phone . multi quote . . .yeah right

Isis is a bad muslim terrorist group . .
So in this case you are right
How ever
Refeering to the apples the damn things are on the plane . . . . That is the truth . . Unless they are not apples and its a cia plot .
.which would be more entertaining

[bogan]

Sorry my comments are in brackets . . Phone . multi quote . . .yeah right

Isis is a bad muslim terrorist group . .
So in this case you are right
How ever
Refeering to the apples the damn things are on the plane . . . . That is the truth . . Unless they are not apples and its a cia plot .
.which would be more entertaining

The govt votes on issues with citizen input, if big oil or whatever buy 80/120 polliticians, they still can't push through a dig up nature reserve because the citizens all vote not to. Corruption becomes much more difficult.

Posting nonsense or otherwise very ambiguous stuff does not exercise my grey matter as I either ignore it or question what you mean.

Apples on a plane is export/import. Obviously export/import is done with foodstuff all over the world every day. You told a story of how the same apples came back after just being washed and waxed; that is what I have not seen any factual basis of.

[Brian d marge]

The govt votes on issues with citizen input, if big oil or whatever buy 80/120 polliticians, they still can't push through a dig up nature reserve because the citizens all vote not to. Corruption becomes much more difficult.

Posting nonsense or otherwise very ambiguous stuff does not exercise my grey matter as I either ignore it or question what you mean.

Apples on a plane is export/import. Obviously export/import is done with foodstuff all over the world every day. You told a story of how the same apples came back after just being washed and waxed; that is what I have not seen any factual basis of.
Not sure you thought this through

As what you have described is exactly what is happening in nz . . And without the money

Thats fine about ignoring posts . . But please dont complain if you dont understand

But it would expand your horizons . .

Long time ago someone commented about enoch powells . Doozey of a speach back in the day . . Mensioned that he had quoted virgil Aeanid （spelling sorry)
A quick search and download showed me is was . . .urm yes well
But that was concidered an average to above average level of reading

Animal farm is a interesting read . .book is better than the movie

[bogan]

Not sure you thought this through

As what you have described is exactly what is happening in nz . . And without the money

Thats fine about ignoring posts . . But please dont complain if you dont understand

But it would expand your horizons . .

Long time ago someone commented about enoch powells . Doozey of a speach back in the day . . Mensioned that he had quoted virgil Aeanid （spelling sorry)
A quick search and download showed me is was . . .urm yes well
But that was concidered an average to above average level of reading

Animal farm is a interesting read . .book is better than the movie

It is not happening in NZ, just look at how the referendums are ignored.

Likewise you cannot complain about anyone's inability to read what you want to say from your posts if you do not post specifically what you want to say.

You told a story of how the same apples came back after just being washed and waxed; that is what I have not seen any factual basis of.

[mashman]

It entails the removal of money, and dispersal of good/services to citizens as they determine their needs to be. The citizens also determine whether and how assets are claimed from individuals who are not using them.

It is not blackmail because there is no coercion, banks offered the service, and the people chose to take it. They were free to refuse it.

Yet the comparison you would make, is not one I would share, or others of society would share; I'd be adamant my efforts were equal to my acquisitions. Who are you to tell me different?

To do what with? Printed currency has no value in a moneyless society, the value of hammers is irrelevant when citizens can take them at will. How will you determine who is an economic terrorist and who is just having a holiday? Why would canceling a credit card do anything when the society does not use money anyway? (I'm talking about a holiday within NZ here).

Dispersal? Claimed? Anyway, who better than the citizens to decide?

They were free to refuse it.

You can be as adamant as you like. If you are in the minority, tough shit. Maybe you'll grow to realise that people will be grateful for what you are doing for them without measuring what it is that you do, even though they don't know you. Please yourself how you view the rest of society.

You seem to be forgetting the outside world and the need to measure persons activity in order to meet the financial target that the market has set for that year. Also a great way to find cunts and potentially not serve them. Apply restorative justice, turn the card back on. It could be similar to whatserfaces scheme for allowing only certain things to be "purchased" with it. Stop being such a lazy cunt and start figuring things out for yourself

[Brian d marge]

It is not happening in NZ, just look at how the referendums are ignored.

Likewise you cannot complain about anyone's inability to read what you want to say from your posts if you do not post specifically what you want to say.

You told a story of how the same apples came back after just being washed and waxed; that is what I have not seen any factual basis of.
We are talking same thing here pollys just ignore

Sheer lazyness to google or ask questions followed some choice words
Yes i have a right

See above about the apples

[bogan]

Dispersal? Claimed? Anyway, who better than the citizens to decide?

They were free to refuse it.

You can be as adamant as you like. If you are in the minority, tough shit. Maybe you'll grow to realise that people will be grateful for what you are doing for them without measuring what it is that you do, even though they don't know you. Please yourself how you view the rest of society.

You seem to be forgetting the outside world and the need to measure persons activity in order to meet the financial target that the market has set for that year. Also a great way to find cunts and potentially not serve them. Apply restorative justice, turn the card back on. It could be similar to whatserfaces scheme for allowing only certain things to be "purchased" with it. Stop being such a lazy cunt and start figuring things out for yourself

Those who do the work, own it, and those who own the work, decide how it is dispersed.

Exactly.

How is being in the minority tough shit, will there be penalties if the majority think I am taking more than I give? Without measuring is what I said earlier, because there is no yardstick to measure again.

The outside world sets the value of both the currency, and goods it trades with the moneyless society. Printing money and revaluing hammers will not allow the society to meet any financial targets. Finding cunts is only possible if you have that yardstick to measure against, do you need to introduce a numerical system to give points to each product/job by mass consensus? What card is there to turn off/on? I have figured things out for myself.


We are talking same thing here pollys just ignore

Sheer lazyness to google or ask questions followed some choice words
Yes i have a right

See above about the apples

That is the change I would make, legislate/mandate it so it is public opinion that is binding, not the polly's.

Sheer lazyness to post with such great ambiguity too. It is also inefficient, there is one speaker but many listeners.

Have you not googled it then? I have and found no factual basis for it. You maintain there is one, so I think it is time to back yourself up and show it.

[Brian d marge]

Those who do the work, own it, and those who own the work, decide how it is dispersed.

Exactly.

How is being in the minority tough shit, will there be penalties if the majority think I am taking more than I give? Without measuring is what I said earlier, because there is no yardstick to measure again.

The outside world sets the value of both the currency, and goods it trades with the moneyless society. Printing money and revaluing hammers will not allow the society to meet any financial targets. Finding cunts is only possible if you have that yardstick to measure against, do you need to introduce a numerical system to give points to each product/job by mass consensus? What card is there to turn off/on? I have figured things out for myself.



That is the change I would make, legislate/mandate it so it is public opinion that is binding, not the polly's.

Sheer lazyness to post with such great ambiguity too. It is also inefficient, there is one speaker but many listeners.

Have you not googled it then? I have and found no factual basis for it. You maintain there is one, so I think it is time to back yourself up and show it.

Big companies are the general public in fact some heavy weights are forcing successive government to jump through so awful hoops , . . .hint . ,water electricity . .etc

Point 2

There were many who understood unlike tvnz im not replying to the lowest common denominator . .,I cant
So as i said email or ignore

P3

You didnt google it otherwise you would have found the same link i found
The link from the telegraph and the other link all about the stupidity of food miles giving the apples as an example

You did type in apples waxed south africa

[bogan]

Big companies are the general public in fact some heavy weights are forcing successive government to jump through so awful hoops , . . .hint . ,water electricity . .etc

Point 2

There were many who understood unlike tvnz im not replying to the lowest common denominator . .,I cant
So as i said email or ignore

P3

You didnt google it otherwise you would have found the same link i found
The link from the telegraph and the other link all about the stupidity of food miles giving the apples as an example

You did type in apples waxed south africa

No, citizens are the general public, and each citizen would be assigned a vote.

There were many who didn't too. Often the one you are conversing with doesn't.
As I said, it is inefficient not to communicate effectively.

Provide me the link then. Any I could find simply reiterate the story you told, there are no details about who the exporter/importer is, volumes, etc.

[mashman]

Those who do the work, own it, and those who own the work, decide how it is dispersed.

Exactly.

How is being in the minority tough shit, will there be penalties if the majority think I am taking more than I give? Without measuring is what I said earlier, because there is no yardstick to measure again.

The outside world sets the value of both the currency, and goods it trades with the moneyless society. Printing money and revaluing hammers will not allow the society to meet any financial targets. Finding cunts is only possible if you have that yardstick to measure against, do you need to introduce a numerical system to give points to each product/job by mass consensus? What card is there to turn off/on? I have figured things out for myself.


The work is done to be given away. It is dispersed because we have made a conscious effort to find out what and where it is needed. The logistics of social responsibility like.

Total cunt of a decision to have people making in the first place.

If you don't intend to take the piss, then I fail to see why there will be any problem? If you intend to take the piss, then you're no different to the guy who "swindles" the financial system (social welfare, fraud etc...). They go to jail... unless they're really rich and can afford to pay a large fine.

Sure, continue with the outside world valuing the currency and the price of imports and exports. The inside world values those imports and exports as it sees fit. Some computer programme can manage floating price resources. Finding cunts is only possible with a yardstick. Moral law should be enough. Difficult to prove mebee, but then again so are a lot of things. The card is to measure where, when and how resources are being used, so that the logistics can be put into place to cater for any probable need that the report shows and in order to mitigate the situation where the actual need arises for some form of service and the service isn't ready to cater for it. In laymans terms, done to a budget.

[bogan]

The work is done to be given away. It is dispersed because we have made a conscious effort to find out what and where it is needed. The logistics of social responsibility like.

Total cunt of a decision to have people making in the first place.

If you don't intend to take the piss, then I fail to see why there will be any problem? If you intend to take the piss, then you're no different to the guy who "swindles" the financial system. They go to jail... unless they're really rich and can afford to pay a large fine.

Sure, continue with the outside world valuing the currency and the price of imports and exports. The inside world values those imports and exports as it sees fit. Some computer programme can manage floating price resources. Finding cunts is only possible with a yardstick. Moral law should be enough. Difficult to prove mebee, but then again so are a lot of things. The card is to measure where, when and how resources are being used, so that the logistics can be put into place to cater for the probable need that the report shows in order to mitigate the situation where the actual need arises for some form of service and the service isn't ready to cater for it. In laymans terms, done to a budget.

I understand that, I was pointing out the other way to do it, one with a strong link between work/reward.

No argument there.

How do you determine intent?

So there is both a yardstick on how much a resource is worth, and a record of who uses what; a budget. A budget by mass consensus, where the consensus decides what goods are worth, but also what jobs 'pay'. I can understand that, though it is different from the 'everyone's entitlement is equal' ideal I had thought you were advocating previously. And how does the system deal with supply and demand for jobs?

I still do not understand how the computer manages floating price resources, the consensus determines the internal price, while the world markets determine the external price, what does the computer do?

[Ocean1]

Well they're not bleating about it, they're bleating about how your stupid system works.

Can't compete? They're supporting them people you fucknuckle. Without them they'd have to fly in food and accommodation too :facepalm: Mr myopia strikes again.

Same old solution giving rise to all too familiar outcomes.

It's not my system. And no they're not, not a single word about "the system". They're bleating because local industry has found better workers.

The fuck they're supporting them, most of the imports are lodged and fed by the company. What they do get from the locals they pay plenty for, which is more like the out of towners supporting the locals, innit?

And yes, the outcome is the only one that works: provide value for money or your clients will find someone else that does.

[Brian d marge]

No, citizens are the general public, and each citizen would be assigned a vote.

There were many who didn't too. Often the one you are conversing with doesn't.
As I said, it is inefficient not to communicate effectively.

Provide me the link then. Any I could find simply reiterate the story you told, there are no details about who the exporter/importer is, volumes, etc.
Citizens work for big companies
Many leaders have said how easy it is to get people to vote a certain way

P2 not mych i can do about that apart there are systems already place to address those issues
Asking questions is one of those systems

P3

Sorry but any evidence apart from taking you to heathrow is going to be second hand
Ive provided links adequate for this conversation . .if i get time I will find a better source

[Ocean1]

You just did it again by trying to excuse what goes on under the guise of it not being able to be any other way. As fucktarded as that it, it is EXCEPTIONALLY hilarious. Thanks.

No it isn't, the alternative is using the same transport and infrastructure to shift the same food to the same places only based on need and not financial viability.

I completely agree with your summation of the content of your post. It is fuckin thick.

What? If you can't actually understand what's said don't bother answering with any old shit that just happens to take your fancy, that's called drivel, and I can't be fucked with any more of your irrelevant bullshit.

[Ocean1]

hows those House prices ....

food prices ....

wages.....

oh no I forgot ...you are fine

my bad carry on


Stephen

Correct. It's the result of living in the real world.

[bogan]

Citizens work for big companies
Many leaders have said how easy it is to get people to vote a certain way

P2 not mych i can do about that apart there are systems already place to address those issues
Asking questions is one of those systems

P3

Sorry but any evidence apart from taking you to heathrow is going to be second hand
Ive provided links adequate for this conversation . .if i get time I will find a better source

I'm aware of that 'flaw', I even have a theory about weighting a person's vote on past performance to combat it, but creating a yardstick or means of weighting the votes is beyond our current ability. That flaw is an unavoidable one in any democracy; it is one of the great advantages to a monarchy, but of course they have their own downsides. I think by giving more power to the people as I have outlined would still offer benefits over the current system.

But in your case it is question after question after question, I mean you still haven't explained the airports and windmills thing have you?

How do you know they fly in and out of heathrow? At this point I'll settle for those facts...

[mashman]

I understand that, I was pointing out the other way to do it, one with a strong link between work/reward.

No argument there.

How do you determine intent?

So there is both a yardstick on how much a resource is worth, and a record of who uses what; a budget. A budget by mass consensus, where the consensus decides what goods are worth, but also what jobs 'pay'. I can understand that, though it is different from the 'everyone's entitlement is equal' ideal I had thought you were advocating previously. And how does the system deal with supply and demand for jobs?

I still do not understand how the computer manages floating price resources, the consensus determines the internal price, while the world markets determine the external price, what does the computer do?

I understand that. Doing what you have to do in order to live in an R.B.E. is reward enough as far as I can tell. Untrodden ground in innovation etc...

:shit: :laugh:

In the same way you determine accident.

The worth of the resource is what it can be used for and it having been consumed is an important detail for projection engines. No need for mass, "I trust you to do right" should be enough. Let computers deal with the how the money moves around in order to meet budget. Not gonna go into jobs, but jobs are voluntary and one can only ask and trust that another will do right. I don't see that as high as risk as you do.

The mass consensus is to let the computer manage the internal value of the economy (it already does) and translate it into $ value for the external economy to gorge on lol. What humans do really doesn't matter so long as we have that consensus. That's A way i see it working. It's only confidence after all.

[bogan]

In the same way you determine accident.

The worth of the resource is what it can be used for and it having been consumed is an important detail for projection engines. No need for mass, "I trust you to do right" should be enough. Let computers deal with the how the money moves around in order to meet budget. Not gonna go into jobs, but jobs are voluntary and one can only ask and trust that another will do right. I don't see that as high as risk as you do.

The mass consensus is to let the computer manage the internal value of the economy (it already does) and translate it into $ value for the external economy to gorge on lol. What humans do really doesn't matter so long as we have that consensus. That's A way i see it working. It's only confidence after all.

Board of inquiry, jury? Is everyone who has a holiday subject to these?

Computer budget, fine; does it supply resources (as measured by the consensus yardstick) based on supplying everyone with equal amounts? or by work done? or by need? Jobs are an integral part of any society, how is supply and demand managed if there is no direct reward for doing jobs that need doing? Pure faith is what I understand your system uses here.

The external economic value cannot be set by that computer, it is set by external market forces. You can price hammers at diamond levels but they will not be purchased, you can print more currency but it will devalue; the external economy can only gorge on production.

[mashman]

Board of inquiry, jury? Is everyone who has a holiday subject to these?

Computer budget, fine; does it supply resources (as measured by the consensus yardstick) based on supplying everyone with equal amounts? or by work done? or by need? Jobs are an integral part of any society, how is supply and demand managed if there is no direct reward for doing jobs that need doing? Pure faith is what I understand your system uses here.

The external economic value cannot be set by that computer, it is set by external market forces. You can price hammers at diamond levels but they will not be purchased, you can print more currency but it will devalue; the external economy can only gorge on production.

Available evidence and using the same people that currently gather such evidence. What do you mean everyone on holiday subjected to what?

Parametised program once an analysis of the current resource usage has been done v's what we really need to be doing. That analysis will likely be led by business leaders and technologists supported by science etc... a la Jacques Fresco. The current financial system is based on pure faith. I see no reason why a money free system couldn't. The reward is having the society we deserve and as you say, we will have to work for it... but it'd be good to be heading towards it at a much more rapid pace that we are, because we have everything we need... except the money that is lol.

The computer takes the value assigned to NZ as a parameter and adjusts internal pricing accordingly in order to hit budget that year. The hammer is an asset. What we choose to value it at is what we choose value it at for whatever reason we choose. Why should that be open to external influence? It's NZ's internal economy, not theirs. Why can't we run it the way we do? We will still be producing though as we know that we have to,

[Brian d marge]

Correct. It's the result of living in the real world.
What would happen if there is a real world correction

Then what

[Brian d marge]

I'm aware of that 'flaw', I even have a theory about weighting a person's vote on past performance to combat it, but creating a yardstick or means of weighting the votes is beyond our current ability. That flaw is an unavoidable one in any democracy; it is one of the great advantages to a monarchy, but of course they have their own downsides. I think by giving more power to the people as I have outlined would still offer benefits over the current system.

But in your case it is question after question after question, I mean you still haven't explained the airports and windmills thing have you?

How do you know they fly in and out of heathrow? At this point I'll settle for those facts...
How bout just decentralize the power ya donthave to reinvent the wheel

P2
I cant do this for every post but i will when i get home

P3
See previous post . . .but im pretty sure they didnt fly out of edinburgh

[Ocean1]

What would happen if there is a real world correction

Then what

I'm good, it's still the real world.

See, I don't like banks or artificial markets either, but rather than whine about them I just minimise my exposure to them and keep right on working.

[Gadget1]

I do. When you realise that you can value anything you like at any value you like (because that already happens e.g. diamonds worth more than bread), there are no more hurdles and the money becomes irrelevant. But by all means carry on saying that you don't have enough information, because all you are doing is setting your own limits... and "blaming" me for your shortcomings leaves me laughing needing to go wee wee.

In that paragraph above there is every single piece of information you need in order to accept that an R.B.E. is not only possible, but is completely achievable.


Of course a R.B.E is possible, that's what Jacque Fresco's system is about.

As bogan, Zedder and I have pointed out though, you have simply plagiarised his work and gone on and on about it for the last 4 or so years. Fresco's system and other changes are happening anyway without you and all those years of typing.

Ffs, you probably would have plagiarised the Nordic model if it had suited you.

[mashman]

Of course a R.B.E is possible, that's what Jacque Fresco's system is about.

As bogan, Zedder and I have pointed out though, you have simply plagiarised his work and gone on and on about it for the last 4 or so years. Fresco's system and other changes are happening anyway without you and all those years of typing.

Ffs, you probably would have plagiarised the Nordic model if it had suited you.

Indeed it is.

Plagiarised? :killingme... Is that all you have. You're a copycat therefore you're a copycat :blink: :killingme :crybaby: :killingme. I think you'll find that bogan sees differences between "my" and Mr Fresco's methodologies for attaining R.B.E. in the shortest time possible. Sounds like you're plagiarising me now:



It's happening without me lol.

You're pretty fuckin slow eh...

What for? It uses money :confused:

[Gadget1]

Indeed it is.

Plagiarised? :killingme... Is that all you have. You're a copycat therefore you're a copycat :blink: :killingme :crybaby: :killingme. I think you'll find that bogan sees differences between "my" and Mr Fresco's methodologies for attaining R.B.E. in the shortest time possible. Sounds like you're plagiarising me now:



You're pretty fuckin slow eh...

What for? It uses money :confused:

Actually bogan used the word bastardised for your use of Fresco's work. I was being polite.

I posted the words "if it suited you". But since you've chosen to vent your hatred of the money system Fresco is it. In a huge rut are you? Need something to blame except yourself?

[mashman]

Actually bogan used the word bastardised for your use of Fresco's work. I was being polite.

I posted the words "if it suited you". But since you've chosen to vent your hatred of the money system Fresco is it. In a huge rut are you? Need something to blame except yourself?

In which case, stop being polite, it doesn't suit you. Pussy!

You did say if it suited and I explained why it doesn't suit. Getting yer knickers in a twist, whilst amusing, really ain't helping your clarity of thought. I've chosen to vent my "hatred" of the money system for very good reasons. That someone else does too i.e. TVP, TZM, MFP, Ubuntu, FWC etc... has fuck all to do with it. Again though, that you're ignorant enough to state such things is highly amusing. I have stated openly that I accept plenty of the blame for the state of society myself... kinda funny watching KB deny that they have any responsibility along similar lines.

Ignorant pussy amuse chief mash... dance more jester.

[mashman]

I'm good, it's still the real world.

See, I don't like banks or artificial markets either, but rather than whine about them I just minimise my exposure to them and keep right on working.

Shame you don't take it upon yourself to make similar available to the rest of society... but that's ok, coz it means you can also ignore your responsibility for the debt that you've created over the years to get where you are, or indeed the debt that someone has created in order to be able to afford your services.

[bogan]

Available evidence and using the same people that currently gather such evidence. What do you mean everyone on holiday subjected to what?

Parametised program once an analysis of the current resource usage has been done v's what we really need to be doing. That analysis will likely be led by business leaders and technologists supported by science etc... a la Jacques Fresco. The current financial system is based on pure faith. I see no reason why a money free system couldn't. The reward is having the society we deserve and as you say, we will have to work for it... but it'd be good to be heading towards it at a much more rapid pace that we are, because we have everything we need... except the money that is lol.

The computer takes the value assigned to NZ as a parameter and adjusts internal pricing accordingly in order to hit budget that year. The hammer is an asset. What we choose to value it at is what we choose value it at for whatever reason we choose. Why should that be open to external influence? It's NZ's internal economy, not theirs. Why can't we run it the way we do? We will still be producing though as we know that we have to,

Evidence gathering to see if they were spending firvolously.

The financial system does not run on pure faith for job suuply and demand, market forces adjust the pay for jobs as more or less people do them. Does you program allocate resources based on supplying everyone with equal amounts? or by work done? or by need?

There is no need for an internal budget where prices are adjusted to make it work in an RBE. The only 'budget' is the one based on a resources actual worth, as set by the parametised program and mass consensus.


How bout just decentralize the power ya donthave to reinvent the wheel

P2
I cant do this for every post but i will when i get home

P3
See previous post . . .but im pretty sure they didnt fly out of edinburgh

Because decentralising the power does not serve the same purpose.

Why are you so convinced they (same apples) flew in and out of anywhere at all? Because you have read the same story many times?

[Gadget1]

In which case, stop being polite, it doesn't suit you. Pussy!

You did say if it suited and I explained why it doesn't suit. Getting yer knickers in a twist, whilst amusing, really ain't helping your clarity of thought. I've chosen to vent my "hatred" of the money system for very good reasons. That someone else does too i.e. TVP, TZM, MFP, Ubuntu, FWC etc... has fuck all to do with it. Again though, that you're ignorant enough to state such things is highly amusing. I have stated openly that I accept plenty of the blame for the state of society myself... kinda funny watching KB deny that they have any responsibility along similar lines.

Ignorant pussy amuse chief mash... dance more jester.


Lol, you're so entertaining. After seeing your post and Zedders about your wife not working etc, I was intrigued and mentioned you to a psychologist friend. Although he was surprised at the vehemence and length of your rantings he (paraphrasing) reckoned it's nearly a textbook case of anger and frustration with associated displacement activity.

[mashman]

Evidence gathering to see if they were spending firvolously.

The financial system does not run on pure faith for job suuply and demand, market forces adjust the pay for jobs as more or less people do them. Does you program allocate resources based on supplying everyone with equal amounts? or by work done? or by need?

There is no need for an internal budget where prices are adjusted to make it work in an RBE. The only 'budget' is the one based on a resources actual worth, as set by the parametised program and mass consensus.


No doubt that will be a measure in the quest to ensure that there is enough to keep our economy going.

:facepalm: of course it runs of faith. Do you get paid before you do a job? No, you have faith that the person will pay you once the job is complete to their satisfaction. The program will have just about every single variable that can be thought up, but it won't be responsible for allocation, that'll be a job for the community to organise with the govt wrt resource logistics/availability.

There is every need for an internal budget if external country's are still running financial economy's, as they will want us to prove that we have produced what we say we have and haven't just printed more money without anything to back it.

[mashman]

Lol, you're so entertaining. After seeing your post and Zedders about your wife not working etc, I was intrigued and mentioned you to a psychologist friend. Although he was surprised at the vehemence and length of your rantings he (paraphrasing) reckoned it's nearly a textbook case of anger and frustration with associated displacement activity.

Glad I can oblige. Ugh :facepalm: my wife does work. Perhaps getting your facts right before having your friend prescribe an internet diagnosis :killingme jesus that's really really really very fuckin funny, might be a better idea if you're going to use that opinion to base some judgement on. I almost have tears in my eyes. Chur.

[bogan]

No doubt that will be a measure in the quest to ensure that there is enough to keep our economy going.

:facepalm: of course it runs of faith. Do you get paid before you do a job? No, you have faith that the person will pay you once the job is complete to their satisfaction. The program will have just about every single variable that can be thought up, but it won't be responsible for allocation, that'll be a job for the community to organise with the govt wrt resource logistics/availability.

There is every need for an internal budget if external country's are still running financial economy's, as they will want us to prove that we have produced what we say we have and haven't just printed more money without anything to back it.

Which sounds ominously like overspending can lead to jail time.

I'm not talking about that part. I'm talking about how jobs are allocated. Pure faith that someone will see a job that needs doing and just swap career tracks to do it, in your system. In the current one, market forces determine profitability of various career tracks, providing incentive to change if there are not enough workers in a particular job.

They will want to buy from and sell things to you; the proof is in the ability for your society to have goods to sell (and thus the production).

[Gadget1]

Glad I can oblige. Ugh :facepalm: my wife does work. Perhaps getting your facts right before having your friend prescribe an internet diagnosis :killingme jesus that's really really really very fuckin funny, might be a better idea if you're going to use that opinion to base some judgement on. I almost have tears in my eyes. Chur.


Tsk, tsk, I didn't post that your wife working or not had any bearing on the matter. He just had a read of your posts, that was enough. His actual first comment to me was "That guy needs help." But probably we all can see that.

[Katman]

Tsk, tsk, I didn't post that your wife working or not had any bearing on the matter. He just had a read of your posts, that was enough. His actual first comment to me was "That guy needs help." But probably we all can see that.

Your butt's hurting right now, isn't it?

[Gadget1]

Your butt's hurting right now, isn't it?


No, but my stomach is from laughing at you and mushman. Done any work today? Hang on, you're going to die poor iirc so don't bother doing anything. LOSER!!!

[mashman]

Which sounds ominously like overspending can lead to jail time.

I'm not talking about that part. I'm talking about how jobs are allocated. Pure faith that someone will see a job that needs doing and just swap career tracks to do it, in your system. In the current one, market forces determine profitability of various career tracks, providing incentive to change if there are not enough workers in a particular job.

They will want to buy from and sell things to you; the proof is in the ability for your society to have goods to sell (and thus the production).

It is a possibility... but such will be decided by wiser than myself.

See when I said jobs are voluntary, that's exactly what it means. That the system will raise flags that a job is becoming under resourced does not mean it sends you a text and tells you to turn up to a particular location tomorrow... although there would be some use in that for the people who are willing to get stuck in. I understand why you may not want to answer the question of, Do you get paid before a job?, but it's pretty hypocritical to demand similar of others.

Isn't that what I just said?

[bogan]

It is a possibility... but such will be decided by wiser than myself.

See when I said jobs are voluntary, that's exactly what it means. That the system will raise flags that a job is becoming under resourced does not mean it sends you a text and tells you to turn up to a particular location tomorrow... although there would be some use in that for the people who are willing to get stuck in. I understand why you may not want to answer the question of, Do you get paid before a job?, but it's pretty hypocritical to demand similar of others.

Isn't that what I just said?

Indeed.

Sometimes you do, though mostly not for wage work. I'm not demanding that of others at all. What I would like to know is how your internal resource management works, does you program allocate resources based on supplying everyone with equal amounts? or by work done? or by need?

No, because you said things about adjusting internal value of good to meet a budget to keep external societies happy; none of this is required in an RBE.

[mashman]

Tsk, tsk, I didn't post that your wife working or not had any bearing on the matter. He just had a read of your posts, that was enough. His actual first comment to me was "That guy needs help." But probably we all can see that.

Yes but it highlights that you haven't got a fuckin clue what you're talking about :D And for the record, the smile has been added in order to convey that I am not shouting or projecting any anger or angst towards you. I won't always use the smiley, coz I'll be smiling more than enough knowing that you're too preoccupied with me (flattered like, but you're gonna have to be one helluva woman to replace the current one), to see the wood for the trees. That such a professional would make a diagnosis based on some posts on the internet without any context in the slightest should see a shrink. I reckon you're telling porkies... but iffen you're not, they're more than welcome to speak to me in person so that they can soothe their worried brow. Am pretty sure the missus or my mates woulda told me too like, as few are that backwards in coming forwards and they certainly know that I'm open minded... either way, bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa.

[mashman]

Sometimes you do, though mostly not for wage work. I'm not demanding that of others at all. What I would like to know is how your internal resource management works, does you program allocate resources based on supplying everyone with equal amounts? or by work done? or by need?

No, because you said things about adjusting internal value of good to meet a budget to keep external societies happy; none of this is required in an RBE.

It does what society needs it to do.

It's a single R.B.E. in an entirely financial world. When the entire planet is R.B.E. then yes, absolutely that part of the program will be put in a museum for kids to play with and laugh at their ancestors.

[bogan]

It does what society needs it to do.

It's a single R.B.E. in an entirely financial world. When the entire planet is R.B.E. then yes, absolutely that part of the program will be put in a museum for kids to play with and laugh at their ancestors.

Which is what? To my mind, society needs it to pay based on the job done, to incentivise job spread; but that means it is not very different from the current system at all. But the question is not what society needs, it is how your proposed society will work? Thus we can establish if your proposed society is what society needs...

Which can happily keep its external books the normal way, by relying on market forces to set the price of export/imports, the computer program is unnecessary, and of no use anyway.

[mashman]

Which is what? To my mind, society needs it to pay based on the job done, to incentivise job spread; but that means it is not very different from the current system at all. But the question is not what society needs, it is how your proposed society will work? Thus we can establish if your proposed society is what society needs...

Which can happily keep its external books the normal way, by relying on market forces to set the price of export/imports, the computer program is unnecessary, and of no use anyway.

It doesn't pay anything. R.B.E. is the incentive. Society will let us know what it needs and it will get implemented, because as you say, it really isn't that different in the way it runs to the current system.

It's necessary because those external influences will change the value that things are charged at internally.

[Zedder]

Yes but it highlights that you haven't got a fuckin clue what you're talking about :D And for the record, the smile has been added in order to convey that I am not shouting or projecting any anger or angst towards you. I won't always use the smiley, coz I'll be smiling more than enough knowing that you're too preoccupied with me (flattered like, but you're gonna have to be one helluva woman to replace the current one), to see the wood for the trees. That such a professional would make a diagnosis based on some posts on the internet without any context in the slightest should see a shrink. I reckon you're telling porkies... but iffen you're not, they're more than welcome to speak to me in person so that they can soothe their worried brow. Am pretty sure the missus or my mates woulda told me too like, as few are that backwards in coming forwards and they certainly know that I'm open minded... either way, bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa.


Your reading and comprehenison are pathetic. The guy wrote "paraphrasing" and "nearly textbook case" so, breaking that down cos your thick: paraphrasing means using different words and nearly text book means close to textbook and would need confirmation in the form of a formal interview. Incidently, I doubt he's into R.B.E which means he works for money. Oh dear.

[Brian d marge]

Your reading and comprehension are pathetic. ..

Shall I raise , the comprehension issue , you have recently had?

[Brian d marge]

I'm good, it's still the real world.

See, I don't like banks or artificial markets either, but rather than whine about them I just minimise my exposure to them and keep right on working.
Now why would you be adverse to banks and artificial markets ( not that we have been telling you that for how long)
Is it because, they are ..................................

[mashman]

Your reading and comprehenison are pathetic. The guy wrote "paraphrasing" and "nearly textbook case" so, breaking that down cos your thick: paraphrasing means using different words and nearly text book means close to textbook and would need confirmation in the form of a formal interview. Incidently, I doubt he's into R.B.E which means he works for money. Oh dear.

Cool..........

[Gadget1]

Shall I raise , the comprehension issue , you have recently had?

Nah, all sorted by bogan.

[bogan]

It doesn't pay anything. R.B.E. is the incentive. Society will let us know what it needs and it will get implemented, because as you say, it really isn't that different in the way it runs to the current system.

It's necessary because those external influences will change the value that things are charged at internally.

But it does, you've said resource spending will be tracked, and measured per individual. You've also said overspending can lead to jail time, and that a person card (spending) can be cut off.

Ah, so the external price of goods affects the internal resource value. Great.

[Gadget1]

Your reading and comprehenison are pathetic. The guy wrote "paraphrasing" and "nearly textbook case" so, breaking that down cos your thick: paraphrasing means using different words and nearly text book means close to textbook and would need confirmation in the form of a formal interview. Incidently, I doubt he's into R.B.E which means he works for money. Oh dear.

Yep, it would be like getting a structural engineer friend to cast his eye over a building as a favour. No formal sign off expected or required etc.

[bogan]

Nah, all sorted by bogan.

What I'm here for bud :2thumbsup

[Gadget1]

What I'm here for bud :2thumbsup

All good as far as I'm concerned.

[mashman]

But it does, you've said resource spending will be tracked, and measured per individual. You've also said overspending can lead to jail time, and that a person card (spending) can be cut off.

Ah, so the external price of goods affects the internal resource value. Great.

Yes, but the individual isn't getting paid. Likely just us using different words for the same thing, as happens, but essentially the individual is valued, just not paid and that value is dealt with on their behalf by the system. Yes, the spending is the value that they're taking out of the internal economy, and if that is happening would you not want to know and potentially arrest the behaviour?

:niceone:

[bogan]

Yes, but the individual isn't getting paid. Likely just us using different words for the same thing, as happens, but essentially the individual is valued, just not paid and that value is dealt with on their behalf by the system. Yes, the spending is the value that they're taking out of the internal economy, and if that is happening would you not want to know and potentially arrest the behaviour?

:niceone:

Indeed, so what are they valued by? Equal for all? Ability? Need?

[mashman]

Indeed, so what are they valued by? Equal for all? Ability? Need?

They are valued by the program. The program can be as simple or as complex as consensus decides that it needs to be, so there may well be a need for some form of weighting to be used wrt resources that are "plentiful".

[bogan]

They are valued by the program. The program can be as simple or as complex as consensus decides that it needs to be, so there may well be a need for some form of weighting to be used wrt resources that are "plentiful".

So if the program decides we need more gardeners, they get valued at more? so have more to spend. What are the people who choose not to work valued at?

[Brian d marge]

What I'm here for bud :2thumbsup

Im glad you fellas found a commonality

[bogan]

Im glad you fellas found a commonality

Speaking of finding things, have you found anything to back up your apple story yet?

[Brian d marge]

Speaking of finding things, have you found anything to back up your apple story yet?
Sent the source of the quote to you last night

[bogan]

Sent the source of the quote to you last night

Didn't get it. Can you post it here.

[Brian d marge]

Didn't get it. Can you post it here.
Private message

[bogan]

Private message

Nah I don't get those.

[Brian d marge]

Nah I don't get those.
Ok when i get home Ill resend
Im sure you will just love the document

[bogan]

Ok when i get home Ill resend
Im sure you will just love the document

Resend will not work as I don't get PMs.

Post it here.

[Brian d marge]

Resend will not work as I don't get PMs.

Post it here.
Sure
Your going to love it

[Banditbandit]

My green rep count is far higher than the pathetic reds from you and your loser mates. .

That's not hard .. I green blinged you for something that you said which made me laugh ... but we still agree on bugger all ... I think I'd rather be in the camp with mashman and 'his loser mates' ...

But I'll still bling you if you make me laugh ...

[Gadget1]

That's not hard .. I green blinged you for something that you said which made me laugh ... but we still agree on bugger all ... I think I'd rather be in the camp with mashman and 'his loser mates' ...

But I'll still bling you if you make me laugh ...

Green bling by itself means little to me, the accompanying comments are of more interest. However, feel free not to respond to me or rep me for anything.

[Ocean1]

Now why would you be adverse to banks and artificial markets ( not that we have been telling you that for how long)
Is it because, they are ..................................

Banks because it's far less work in the long run to earn money before you spend it. (Told you I wasn't a capitalist).

And artificial markets because by definition the provider and the client aren't free to agree the price without outside interference, the antithesis of a free market. Outside of charity I try to avoid paying for more than I receive.