My first poll for the NZ public

[mashman]

Um just because they are standing in front of you nodding and smiling, doesn't mean they agree with you. It just means they are too polite to say "fuck off you boring twat"

:laugh:

Those who don't want to talk about it are more than happy to end the conversation in a variety of ways. But then there are people who see that RBE holds water and ask more questions. If they don't ask questions, then there is no conversation. Hence they're not in the conversation for any other reason than they choose to be. Hence the lack of "abrupt" endings and generally positive outcome in favour of RBE. I don't ask or expect people to change... as they're more than smart enough to figure that sort of thing out themselves when presented with a starter, almost as if they've thought of it before, but discarded it because they didn't follow it through to its logical conclusion i.e. money. Even the dumbest fucker I've spoken to got it... but that's only because they don't have the perception that they are going to lose something. It's all fear or loss and mistrust. Mind you, the position of the fearful and mistrusting does make for some lulz... so it ain't all chicken little :D

[mashman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdbbcO35arw

[Voltaire]

Interesting, good drawings :msn-wink:

[oldrider]

Interesting, good drawings :msn-wink:

That was more to that than simply good drawings but IMO it was incomplete!

What was not addressed was the vital ingredient that usurps the ability for any or all of those systems presented to ever be successfully implemented!

That ingredient is currently owned and controlled by the Rothschild world federal reserve banking system - they did not steal it, our inane world leaders gave it to them!

Those same inane leaders borrow back that ingredient from the privately owned federal reserve system and pay them repeatedly for the privilege of doing so!

What does the federal reserve central banking system gain from this situation? - power control and unlimited wealth!

What does the rest of world society get out of this situation? - indebtedness compliance and population control - or the right to die in ignorance and poverty!

[bogan]

No it doesn't. They are still consumed by the person that can afford them.

I understand it fine. You misunderstood the reason for the image being posted... yet you did give us a beautiful story about what I don't understand, again.

Oooooooo, only half point. ICS.

So what's the problem, the production is consumed; how is removing money going to change that, ie, how is removing money going to suddenly mean more vaccines will be produced?

Which is the point I'm making, you continue to fail to acknowledge one of the cores of an rbe, or any working economic/resource system for that matter. The Production/Consumption ratio must be 1 or greater.

What does ICS mean, and why do no rbe's exist? you've not given any logical reason for it. So given they don't; to understand the rbe concept, you also need to be able to understand why they have not formed. This is to ensure your 'understanding' aligns with reality (thus removing its air quotes).

[Brian d marge]

That was more to that than simply good drawings but IMO it was incomplete!

What was not addressed was the vital ingredient that usurps the ability for any or all of those systems presented to ever be successfully implemented!

That ingredient is currently owned and controlled by the Rothschild world federal reserve banking system - they did not steal it, our inane world leaders gave it to them!

Those same inane leaders borrow back that ingredient from the privately owned federal reserve system and pay them repeatedly for the privilege of doing so!

What does the federal reserve central banking system gain from this situation? - power control and unlimited wealth!

What does the rest of world society get out of this situation? - indebtedness compliance and population control - or the right to die in ignorance and poverty!
pretty much , nail on the head .....but I think its the Nazi money thats calling the shots now, the markers that Boorman laid down in 1945 are coming due ,,, Italian gold etc
the rest of what you say is bang on the money
but u cant blame the sheep , the brainwashing is sooooooo deep , it astounds me ... Mark twain said " fooling people is easy but convincing they are being fooled is impossible "
see the old 10 marbles in a cup ,,,where does the 11th marble come from? your Oceans 11 have NO answer to that , ....
i mean zero interest rates, WHY WHY would you buy a bond when you after 10 years will get LESS than you bought it for ............... UNLESS loosing SOME MONEY is preferable to loosing ALL of ur money
so somethings up
I think the Anglo American mafia is on the way out , the Li clan is on the rise ...IMHO...or the Venetians are cleverly controlling both sides ???

Stephen

[Voltaire]

Jews and Nazi's the old conspiracy favourites.:lol:

Us sheep thank you for trying to bring to our attention what is really going on the in world.

Other than posting You Tube clips, saying how much you know that we don't and ultimately calling each other names what are you doing about

it?

Maaaaaaaa we want to know.

I'm leaning towards bored shitless ,cash poor and spending far too much time on the internet.:killingme

[oldrider]

Hollywood? fact or fiction? - this clip is tainted with some serious brainwashing shit!

<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6PTMr2U9hHY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[mashman]

So what's the problem, the production is consumed; how is removing money going to change that, ie, how is removing money going to suddenly mean more vaccines will be produced?

Which is the point I'm making, you continue to fail to acknowledge one of the cores of an rbe, or any working economic/resource system for that matter. The Production/Consumption ratio must be 1 or greater.

What does ICS mean, and why do no rbe's exist? you've not given any logical reason for it. So given they don't; to understand the rbe concept, you also need to be able to understand why they have not formed. This is to ensure your 'understanding' aligns with reality (thus removing its air quotes).

I mentioned the problem earlier with the cancer example that didn't suit you because your understanding was that I was unlinking production and consumption when I wasn't. Removing money would see the people who can't afford to get the drugs, get the drugs and potentially live.

No, that's you putting words in my mouth, again. I understand that fine. Technically 1/2 could be produced.

You don't remember the ICS eh. No real surprise there. Hell, you couldn't even remember the cancer problem from a day ago. I understand fine bogan. Now, haven't you got some understanding to go and misunderstand... don't worry, I'll be here so that you can take your, demonstrably continuous, fail out on someone. I know I'm enabling tall poppy, but you really seem to need to get it out of your system. They haven't formed because no one knows. Pretty simple thing that you keep ignoring.

[mashman]

Other than posting You Tube clips, saying how much you know that we don't and ultimately calling each other names what are you doing about it?

Don't fret, those who don't post youtube clips and maintain the status quo will be along shortly with brand new packaging and shiny trinkets of reward to rule you some more.

[bogan]

I mentioned the problem earlier with the cancer example that didn't suit you because your understanding was that I was unlinking production and consumption when I wasn't. Removing money would see the people who can't afford to get the drugs, get the drugs and potentially live.

No, that's you putting words in my mouth, again. I understand that fine. Technically 1/2 could be produced.

You don't remember the ICS eh. No real surprise there. Hell, you couldn't even remember the cancer problem from a day ago. I understand fine bogan. Now, haven't you got some understanding to go and misunderstand... don't worry, I'll be here so that you can take your, demonstrably continuous, fail out on someone. I know I'm enabling tall poppy, but you really seem to need to get it out of your system. They haven't formed because no one knows. Pretty simple thing that you keep ignoring.

Removing money doesn't remove the need to provide large amount of resources to the 'drug companies' to research and product them though.

1/2 could be produced? twice the consumption of what is produced? clearly you do not understand, a sandwich can only be eaten once mashy.

And there it is, when faced with his own lack of understanding and unpalatable truth, mashy once again hides behind misdirection and bows out of the discussion. Shitters like you are what stops an rbe from forming, heathens who appropriate the name, only to give it a bad reputation through your ineptitude.


Because it's only lazy cunts that want one, and they're too lazy to make one let alone sustain one.

Yup, he's shown that once again.

[mashman]

Removing money doesn't remove the need to provide large amount of resources to the 'drug companies' to research and product them though.

1/2 could be produced? twice the consumption of what is produced? clearly you do not understand, a sandwich can only be eaten once mashy.

And there it is, when faced with his own lack of understanding and unpalatable truth, mashy once again hides behind misdirection and bows out of the discussion. Shitters like you are what stops an rbe from forming, heathens who appropriate the name, only to give it a bad reputation through your ineptitude.


I never said it did. Understanding fail.

And you don't understand that a full pill can be produced as a half pill, technically. Understanding fail.

Understanding fail. It'd help if you stopped blaming me for yours, but it looks like I hit that nail square on the head. Go on, tell me again how many people know about RBE :killingme :crybaby: :killingme. Vacuous, just like the claimed understandings you create for others. :yawn: but also :rofl:

So, send your red, make me laugh more and slope off in your usual cloud of adhoms.

[bogan]

I never said it did. Understanding fail.

And you don't understand that a full pill can be produced as a half pill, technically. Understanding fail.

Understanding fail. It'd help if you stopped blaming me for yours, but it looks like I hit that nail square on the head. Go on, tell me again how many people know about RBE :killingme :crybaby: :killingme. Vacuous, just like the claimed understandings you create for others. :yawn: but also :rofl:

So, send your red, make me laugh more and slope off in your usual cloud of adhoms.

A full pill as a half pill, that's your answer to the whole production/consumption thing? seriously?

Look, we've both seen you don't understand rbe's. Convoluted logic about pills notwithstanding, there are no rbe's. Your ideas from why this is have have been shown to be lacking; enough people know for large scale pilot programs, you can do it from within a financial system, you don't need a new city; yet, there are none. Your understanding does not add up with reality; mired in self delusion you only hamper the way to an rbe. My understanding does tally with reality, and why none have emerged; this is why I can work towards it.

[mashman]

A full pill as a half pill, that's your answer to the whole production/consumption thing? seriously?

Look, we've both seen you don't understand rbe's. Convoluted logic about pills notwithstanding, there are no rbe's. Your ideas from why this is have have been shown to be lacking; enough people know for large scale pilot programs, you can do it from within a financial system, you don't need a new city; yet, there are none. Your understanding does not add up with reality; mired in self delusion you only hamper the way to an rbe. My understanding does tally with reality, and why none have emerged; this is why I can work towards it.

No, that's not what I was meaning at all. Hence why I said understanding fail.

bwaaaaaaaaaaaa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Thanks man.

[Woodman]

Who would be in charge of quality control in the pill factory that nobody is obligated to even show up? What punishment /action would be taken against someone that fucks up a batch of pills and kills people? Sack them? big deal they don't have to work anyway. Actually who would sack them? Managers would have nothing over their employees. Why would you want to be a boss at all? no extra reward for basically herding cats. There has to be accountability. Basic human nature.

Quality of anything produced in an RBE would be shit. They would have to produce so many more of each widget to get one widget that would work properly. Now thats a waste of resources.

[bogan]

Who would be in charge of quality control in the pill factory that nobody is obligated to even show up? What punishment /action would be taken against someone that fucks up a batch of pills and kills people? Sack them? big deal they don't have to work anyway. Actually who would sack them? Managers would have nothing over their employees. Why would you want to be a boss at all? no extra reward for basically herding cats. There has to be accountability. Basic human nature.

Quality of anything produced in an RBE would be shit. They would have to produce so many more of each widget to get one widget that would work properly. Now thats a waste of resources.

Disagree, either quality, or quantity of anything produced in a non-emergent (implemented before it was proven ready) rbe would be shit. Scientists would happily take 30 years to make a drug they thought was right (and that might be the only new drug in 30 years btw). Course you might get other 'scientists' (cos you wouldn't need any qualifications in the dumb-shit rbe) who take half arsed work and mass produce, and mass murder. But hey, that's still better than money, cos reasons :scratch:

[mashman]

Who would be in charge of quality control in the pill factory that nobody is obligated to even show up? What punishment /action would be taken against someone that fucks up a batch of pills and kills people? Sack them? big deal they don't have to work anyway. Actually who would sack them? Managers would have nothing over their employees. Why would you want to be a boss at all? no extra reward for basically herding cats. There has to be accountability. Basic human nature.

Quality of anything produced in an RBE would be shit. They would have to produce so many more of each widget to get one widget that would work properly. Now thats a waste of resources.

What's wrong with the people doing those jobs at the moment? You don't think people will listen to someone leading a project unless they're paid to do so? No such thing as human nature. Just learned behaviour i.e. lazy thinkers ;).

The goal of an RBE is to build things to the best standards available, not just to a standard that's passed as compliance. That way things will last longer, which saves energy on manufacturing replacements through not having to cheapskate the product/components to a budget, therefore extending the lifetime of not just that resource, but any other reliant resources. Planned obsolescence is a waste of resources.minutes.

[bogan]

What's wrong with the people doing those jobs at the moment?

They fucking keep sneaking autism into the pills :whistle:

[Voltaire]

Don't fret, those who don't post youtube clips and maintain the status quo will be along shortly with brand new packaging and shiny trinkets of reward to rule you some more.

Whens it going to happen :woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

You guys post up video clips, no one bothers watching them....

I'm biting my nails whether to build a bunker or go and buy some more motorcycles....need to know.

[mashman]

Whens it going to happen :woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

You guys post up video clips, no one bothers watching them....

I'm biting my nails whether to build a bunker or go and buy some more motorcycles....need to know.

It's how things have been done since ages ago. You're living it and you don't even notice ;).

More motorcycles.

[Voltaire]

It's how things have been done since ages ago. You're living it and you don't even notice ;).

More motorcycles.

Whats to notice, the rich 1% own 90% of the wealth, old money owns the US Govt and probably most of the others, thats why they gave the

internet to surf.....but its actually serf.

Its not so bad as long as you get off you butt and are not at the bottom of the pyramid.

thinking Triumph Thruxton R, but need to wait for my fiat money to make the most of BREXIT.:laugh:

[mashman]

Whats to notice, the rich 1% own 90% of the wealth, old money owns the US Govt and probably most of the others, thats why they gave the

internet to surf.....but its actually serf.

Its not so bad as long as you get off you butt and are not at the bottom of the pyramid.

thinking Triumph Thruxton R, but need to wait for my fiat money to make the most of BREXIT.:laugh:

lol@serf... you've been listening to Akzle too much.

I'm aware of the shiney stuff on offer if you can get a job that pays lots. Allows one to retire early too :D

Leverage... get it all on credit :laugh:

[Voltaire]

lol@serf... you've been listening to Akzle too much.

I'm aware of the shiney stuff on offer if you can get a job that pays lots. Allows one to retire early too :D

Leverage... get it all on credit :laugh:

Thought about selling up and retiring to the provinces but quite liking the job that pays a lot. :msn-wink:

Credit....whats that? :laugh:

[Brian d marge]

Whens it going to happen :woohoo::woohoo::woohoo:

You guys post up video clips, no one bothers watching them....

I'm biting my nails whether to build a bunker or go and buy some more motorcycles....need to know.
Just bought another bow ...50# for actual use but 60 for practice nice grouping at 20 m
Barn door at 30
Bring on the ruuskies...I'm ready

sent for a divine source

[mashman]

Thought about selling up and retiring to the provinces but quite liking the job that pays a lot. :msn-wink:

Credit....whats that? :laugh:

I have a wife for that. I quite like her too.

Credit is the 99%s fake wealth. It pays your salary :laugh:

[Voltaire]

I have a wife for that. I quite like her too.

Credit is the 99%s fake wealth. It pays your salary :laugh:

Also paying for your retirement unless you have gold or are a glowing example of the RBE that you preach.

Do they take fruit and vege over the counter at the RSA for beersies?

BWAHHHHHAAAAAAAAAA.

[Brian d marge]

Also paying for your retirement unless you have gold or are a glowing example of the RBE that you preach.

Do they take fruit and vege over the counter at the RSA for beersies?

BWAHHHHHAAAAAAAAAA.
That's my retirement
And I made my own beer , the RS A ..comes to me

sent for a divine source

[mashman]

Also paying for your retirement unless you have gold or are a glowing example of the RBE that you preach.

Do they take fruit and vege over the counter at the RSA for beersies?

BWAHHHHHAAAAAAAAAA.

I got a killer smile and a way. Should be good enough :killingme

I've all but retired from drinking too. You could try going to the RSA with gold v's vegies.

[Voltaire]

I got a killer smile and a way. Should be good enough :killingme

I've all but retired from drinking too. You could try going to the RSA with gold v's vegies.

Here I was thinking you were living off grid, growing veges to swap for services, composting toilet and so on.

RSA's are depressing old men and Lion Red.

:rolleyes:

[Madness]

RSA's in Wellington are depressing old men and Tui Pale Ale.

I fixed that for the sake of relevance.

[mashman]

Here I was thinking you were living off grid, growing veges to swap for services, composting toilet and so on.

RSA's are depressing old men and Lion Red.

:rolleyes:

:killingme... it may yet come to that.

Sounds like home from home.

[Voltaire]

:killingme... it may yet come to that.

Sounds like home from home.

Must be a bit boring being retired, filling in the day with KB.... must be some sausages or preserves to make surely.

RBE sounds like hard work to me.:yes:

I remember the afternoon the power went off once.... we had to talk and boil up tea using fire (BBQ acutally)

[mashman]

Must be a bit boring being retired, filling in the day with KB.... must be some sausages or preserves to make surely.

RBE sounds like hard work to me.:yes:

I remember the afternoon the power went off once.... we had to talk and boil up tea using fire (BBQ acutally)

Not really. The clock is mine.

:rofl:@hard work. Not really.

Sounds like hard work.

[bogan]

Crowdfunding has rather good implications for an rbe, if you understand how one works that is...

[Voltaire]

Crowdfunding has rather good implications for an rbe, if you understand how one works that is...

RBE's should have a medieval existence with no access to anything produced by technology.

Crowdfunding is the millennial version of bludging.:clap:

[bogan]

RBE's should have a medieval existence with no access to anything produced by technology.

Crowdfunding is the millennial version of bludging.:clap:

Nah mate, crowdfunding is small scale rbe. Using a value system to assign resources to the efforts for something new, something better; with no guarantee of a return. While those who crowdfund, do work and assign their resources, also with no guarantee of return, for something new, something better. Yet, on the whole it is very successful, and of great benefit. But, there remain checks and balances to prevent abuse.

[oldrider]

You guys post up video clips, no one bothers watching them....

Egzacery - so why does it upset the guardians of KB and the Webb so fucking much then - bit of a contradiction right there! :killingme . :corn:

[bogan]

Egzacery - so why does it upset the guardians of KB and the Webb so fucking much then - bit of a contradiction right there! :killingme . :corn:

Waste of resources. Plus the attempted propagation of harmful self-delusions.

[Voltaire]

Egzacery - so why does it upset the guardians of KB and the Webb so fucking much then - bit of a contradiction right there! :killingme . :corn:

You missed something....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfQ8C-lXQzc

and


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Har3IiZ2Q

:corn:

[oldrider]

Waste of resources. Plus the attempted propagation of harmful self-delusions.


You missed something....



and



:corn:

Pot kettle black! :rofl:

[husaberg]

You missed something....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfQ8C-lXQzc

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Har3IiZ2Q

:corn:

These as well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APw2L5Z4bvc


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs4P1kKK-5k


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ0BKDG4pJ8

[bogan]

Pot kettle black! :rofl:




What harmful self delusion?

And since you just demonstrated you read my post, it demonstrably isn't a waste of resources either...

So to summarise, go fuck yourself oldy.

[oldrider]

What harmful self delusion?

And since you just demonstrated you read my post, it demonstrably isn't a waste of resources either...

So to summarise, go fuck yourself oldy.

Mild amusement is about the highest level of reaction I can muster in response to your pitiful musing. :rolleyes:

[Voltaire]

Whats this thread about?

A) trading home grown veges for Tuis's at the RSA?

B) Something for old retired people to do who can't play bowls, knot or Bingo?

c) An alternative to reading MSM at work as it replies back to you, much like patting a dog.

Obligatory you tube clip.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeZftK2kO6U


bwahaaaaaahaaaa

[bogan]

Mild amusement is about the highest level of reaction I can muster in response to your pitiful musing. :rolleyes:

Well I certainly wouldn't expect a coherent point anyway :killingme

Mild disgust for your's btw.

[Katman]

You missed something....

Is that Martin Shkreli's brother?



and

Ken O'Keefe rocks.

[Voltaire]

Is that Martin Shkreli's brother?

Ken O'Keefe rocks.

I'm not sure, I only spent about 20 seconds <s>{randomly Googling}</s> researching, cutting and pasting them....I thought thats how it worked:banana:

[Katman]

I'm not sure, I only spent about 20 seconds <s>{randomly Googling}</s> researching, cutting and pasting them....I thought thats how it worked:banana:

Ah well, regardless of whether it's Martin Shkreli's brother or not, I think Ocean1 will have found a new boyfriend.

[mashman]

Whats this thread about?

A) trading home grown veges for Tuis's at the RSA?

B) Something for old retired people to do who can't play bowls, knot or Bingo?

c) An alternative to reading MSM at work as it replies back to you, much like patting a dog.

Obligatory you tube clip.

bwahaaaaaahaaaa

d) separating the men from the boys :wari:

[bogan]

d) separating the men from the boys :wari:

They're already separate, since they have better things to do than be here arguing on the internet.

[Voltaire]

They're already separate, since they have better things to do than be here arguing on the internet.

Should have been:

A: boring old fuckers who have nothing better to do that post crap on the internet.
B: see above.

[Brian d marge]

Hey ..leave my social life out of this

sent for a divine source

[mashman]

They're already separate, since they have better things to do than be here arguing on the internet.

Arguing. Point well made sir.

[bogan]

Should have been:

A: boring old fuckers who have nothing better to do that post crap on the internet.
B: see above.

Old? who you calling old, cunty?


Arguing. Point well made sir.

Reality. Do not fear to understand it.

[Voltaire]

Arguing. Point well made sir.

112 votes on your poll in 6 years :banana:

When does voting close?;)

[mashman]

112 votes on your poll in 6 years :banana:

When does voting close?;)

Great result potential though :wari:

Good question.

[bogan]

Great result potential though :wari:

Things you hear politicians say after some unfavorable results come in! :laugh:

Still, the money based kickstarter rbe is going well at least.

[mashman]

Things you hear politicians say after some unfavorable results come in! :laugh:

Still, the money based kickstarter rbe is going well at least.

Yeah, unfavourable. Just like everyone knows about RBE eh.

[bogan]

Yeah, unfavourable. Just like everyone knows about RBE eh.

Now you're starting to get it :third:

[Voltaire]

Yeah, unfavourable. Just like everyone knows about RBE eh.

Good time to refresh the voters memories, 6 years is a long time.

Is it like those kibbutz things that everyone used to do in the 80's , free labour for a meal and a bed thing?

I thought about it for a few minutes but the inner capitalist won :woohoo:

[mashman]

Good time to refresh the voters memories, 6 years is a long time.

Is it like those kibbutz things that everyone used to do in the 80's , free labour for a meal and a bed thing?

I thought about it for a few minutes but the inner capitalist won :woohoo:

The question hasn't changed its meaning.

Only if that's what you'd make of it.

That generally happens for the weak :shifty:

[mashman]

Yanis Varoufakis - Libertarian Marxist. (http://www.ted.com/talks/yanis_varoufakis_capitalism_will_eat_democracy_unl ess_we_speak_up?utm_campaign=social&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co&utm_content=talk&utm_term=global-social%20issues). Sounds more like a Resource Based Economist to me ;)

[bogan]

Yanis Varoufakis - Libertarian Marxist. (http://www.ted.com/talks/yanis_varoufakis_capitalism_will_eat_democracy_unl ess_we_speak_up?utm_campaign=social&utm_medium=referral&utm_source=t.co&utm_content=talk&utm_term=global-social%20issues). Sounds more like a Resource Based Economist to me ;)

Nope, it's no more an RBE than your other shit-arse idea of one.

"At the level of the enterprise, imagine a capital market, where you earn capital as you work, and where your capital follows you from one job to another, from one company to another, and the company -- whichever one you happen to work at at that time -- is solely owned by those who happen to work in it at that moment. Then all income stems from capital, from profits, and the very concept of wage labor becomes obsolete. No more separation between those who own but do not work in the company and those who work but do not own the company; no more tug-of-war between capital and labor; no great gap between investment and saving; indeed, no towering twin peaks." - From that link

It does have merits as an idea, but I think lacks a little in implementatability, and detail obviously.

[mashman]

Nope, it's no more an RBE than your other shit-arse idea of one.

"At the level of the enterprise, imagine a capital market, where you earn capital as you work, and where your capital follows you from one job to another, from one company to another, and the company -- whichever one you happen to work at at that time -- is solely owned by those who happen to work in it at that moment. Then all income stems from capital, from profits, and the very concept of wage labor becomes obsolete. No more separation between those who own but do not work in the company and those who work but do not own the company; no more tug-of-war between capital and labor; no great gap between investment and saving; indeed, no towering twin peaks." - From that link

It does have merits as an idea, but I think lacks a little in implementatability, and detail obviously.

Where did I say it was RBE or even RBE like? :killingme... but as per, chur for the lulz.

[bogan]

Where did I say it was RBE or even RBE like? :killingme... but as per, chur for the lulz.

Get fucked, mushy.

[mashman]

A world without work is coming – it could be utopia or it could be hell (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/19/world-without-work-utopia-hell-human-labour-obsolete?CMP=fb_us#link_time=1474286066)

[Brian d marge]

A world without work is coming – it could be utopia or it could be hell (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/19/world-without-work-utopia-hell-human-labour-obsolete?CMP=fb_us#link_time=1474286066)

Its from the Guardian......

transhumanist bullshyt written too cover up the fact that ,,banks can only lend money,, , some may have to think about that for a while and still will miss its full meaning.

Just a matter of when......

[mashman]

Its from the Guardian......

transhumanist bullshyt written too cover up the fact that ,,banks can only lend money,, , some may have to think about that for a while and still will miss its full meaning.

Just a matter of when......

Well, money is infinite and the TPP will be able to generate more thin air money... we may have a while to go yet.

[Brian d marge]

Well, money is infinite and the TPP will be able to generate more thin air money... we may have a while to go yet.

oh oh does that mean for every thin air dollar , I can lend it out 10 times at 5% interest .... dude

Why didnt I think of this before .....

one , is off to partake of everything on the top shelf ..... whether wrapped in plastic or not ..:banana:

[mashman]

Prolly the best summary of Resource Based Economy I've read (https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2014/no-1319-july-2014/resource-based-economy)

[TheDemonLord]

Prolly the best summary of Resource Based Economy I've read (https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2014/no-1319-july-2014/resource-based-economy)

indeed:

"but a world where all human needs (and most reasonable desires) are readily fulfilled is only possible without money."

Tell me - Who decides what is Reasonable?

The Stazi?
The Politburo?

[Ocean1]

Prolly the best summary of Resource Based Economy I've read (https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2014/no-1319-july-2014/resource-based-economy)

"Much of this of course, we can agree with. Except we would point out that the type of society described here has always accurately been referred to as socialism or communism, as they mean the same thing – the social or common ownership of the means of living. That so-called ‘Communist’ countries (really systems of state-run capitalism) like the former USSR, China, East Germany, etc abused the term is not in our view a reason to disassociate ourselves from it. After all, these states called themselves ‘democratic’ too!"

Well, actually there's fuck all there history agrees with.

In admitting the communist/socialist link they're aligning themselves with all of those historic failures. But "it's OK, 'cause all them failures weren't democratic, either". :laugh:

Which is sorta the point: socialism/communism ALWAYS fails completely in a dictatorship, because it's a fucking stupid positive feedback loop. In a democracy a majority voting themselves more than they contribute produces failures that eventually get voted back out again.

[TheDemonLord]

"Much of this of course, we can agree with. Except we would point out that the type of society described here has always accurately been referred to as socialism or communism, as they mean the same thing – the social or common ownership of the means of living. That so-called ‘Communist’ countries (really systems of state-run capitalism) like the former USSR, China, East Germany, etc abused the term is not in our view a reason to disassociate ourselves from it. After all, these states called themselves ‘democratic’ too!"

Well, actually there's fuck all there history agrees with.

In admitting the communist/socialist link they're aligning themselves with all of those historic failures. But "it's OK, 'cause all them failures weren't democratic, either". :laugh:

Which is sorta the point: socialism/communism ALWAYS fails completely in a dictatorship, because it's a fucking stupid positive feedback loop. In a democracy a majority voting themselves more than they contribute produces failures that eventually get voted back out again.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSzpc2vh8Ow

[mashman]

"Much of this of course, we can agree with. Except we would point out that the type of society described here has always accurately been referred to as socialism or communism, as they mean the same thing – the social or common ownership of the means of living. That so-called ‘Communist’ countries (really systems of state-run capitalism) like the former USSR, China, East Germany, etc abused the term is not in our view a reason to disassociate ourselves from it. After all, these states called themselves ‘democratic’ too!"

Well, actually there's fuck all there history agrees with.

In admitting the communist/socialist link they're aligning themselves with all of those historic failures. But "it's OK, 'cause all them failures weren't democratic, either". :laugh:

Which is sorta the point: socialism/communism ALWAYS fails completely in a dictatorship, because it's a fucking stupid positive feedback loop. In a democracy a majority voting themselves more than they contribute produces failures that eventually get voted back out again.

:killingme... yeah, go for the isms and ignore the rest. But to wet your appetite, it's closer to agorism... although without a government, it's none of those. RBE is more akin to anarchy. That should allay your myopic fears... although I very much doubt it given your lack of ability to even begin to comprehend what's on offer. Love your projection though. It reminds me of how I used to be.

[bogan]

RBE is more akin to anarchy.

Good thing Fresco is buried, he probably wouldn't agree with that utterly rubbish interpretation of everything he was working towards.

[Brian d marge]

"Much of this of course, we can agree with. Except we would point out that the type of society described here has always accurately been referred to as socialism or communism, as they mean the same thing – the social or common ownership of the means of living. That so-called ‘Communist’ countries (really systems of state-run capitalism) like the former USSR, China, East Germany, etc abused the term is not in our view a reason to disassociate ourselves from it. After all, these states called themselves ‘democratic’ too!"

Well, actually there's fuck all there history agrees with.

In admitting the communist/socialist link they're aligning themselves with all of those historic failures. But "it's OK, 'cause all them failures weren't democratic, either". :laugh:

Which is sorta the point: socialism/communism ALWAYS fails completely in a dictatorship, because it's a fucking stupid positive feedback loop. In a democracy a majority voting themselves more than they contribute produces failures that eventually get voted back out again.
As i told u many moons ago ; its possible you aint got a clue what communism or socialism is.

[mashman]

Good thing Fresco is buried, he probably wouldn't agree with that utterly rubbish interpretation of everything he was working towards.

Akin.


As i told u many moons ago ; its possible you aint got a clue what communism or socialism is.

He does... just in his own speshul way.

[Brian d marge]

Akin.



He does... just in his own speshul way.
Does it include the community?

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[Ocean1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rSzpc2vh8Ow

Yes.

But whereas the current crop of whining ingrates are approximately as deluded as previous iterations their inability to learn from their predecessors' failures indicates they're not worth all that "constant vigilance" shit.

Laughing at them is about the extent of the energy I usually waste on them.

[Ocean1]

As i told u many moons ago ; its possible you aint got a clue what communism or socialism is.

:nya: :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[TheDemonLord]

its possible you aint got a clue what communism or socialism is.

The biggest murderous philosophy of the 20th century?

[Brian d marge]

The biggest murderous philosophy of the 20th century?
No , try again , the hint is in the name
The one u are thinking of is a hijack by some very naughty boys

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[mashman]

Does it include the community?

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Yeah... but the conditions suck if you're not considered as being productive or do something that isn't valued as very productive by people who claim to know better coz they consider themselves as more productive coz they got more tokens than those who are, obviously like, less productive and should follow their lead coz then they too could get more tokens. People should just know what's best for them and the community would work fine... more or less, ish, to an acceptable standard yada yada yada

[Brian d marge]

Yeah... but the conditions suck if you're not considered as being productive or do something that isn't valued as very productive by people who claim to know better coz they consider themselves as more productive coz they got more tokens than those who are, obviously like, less productive and should follow their lead coz then they too could get more tokens. People should just know what's best for them and the community would work fine... more or less, ish, to an acceptable standard yada yada yada
Then u would have a laying on of hands ceremony, and boots if ya took the piss
That would have to be worked through with your immediate community.


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[TheDemonLord]

No , try again , the hint is in the name
The one u are thinking of is a hijack by some very naughty boys

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Or....

The philosophy is rooted in some ideas that are fundamentally opposed by our base and animalistic nature - thus any attempt to bring about the Communist Utopia invariably leads to an attempt (by force) to get people to adhere, which in turn leads to murderous dictatorships when those people don't want to adhere.

To quote Jordan Peterson on this subject "How many more times and how many more Millions need to die before people realise it is flawed"

Or as I put it - Communism is a wonderful idea, except for the bit requiring Humans.

[Brian d marge]

Or....

The philosophy is rooted in some ideas that are fundamentally opposed by our base and animalistic nature - thus any attempt to bring about the Communist Utopia invariably leads to an attempt (by force) to get people to adhere, which in turn leads to murderous dictatorships when those people don't want to adhere.

To quote Jordan Peterson on this subject "How many more times and how many more Millions need to die before people realise it is flawed"

Or as I put it - Communism is a wonderful idea, except for the bit requiring Humans.

Most, if not all successful ancient cultures were communists. In fact, without communism the society collapses.

[Woodman]

Most, if not all successful ancient cultures were communists. In fact, without communism the society collapses.

Where are these successful cultures now?

[Ocean1]

Most, if not all successful ancient cultures were communists. In fact, without communism the society collapses.

Actually, what collapses is the parasitic elements in the community.

And what ancient history demonstrates about totalitarian communist societies is that the longer force is used to prop up the parasites then the faster that society dies.

And the solution is real simple, you don't even have to shoot the fucking parasites: you just have to stop feeding them.

You do have to shoot any fuckwit forcing society to feed the parasites though.

[Brian d marge]

Actually, what collapses is the parasitic elements in the community.

And what ancient history demonstrates about totalitarian communist societies is that the longer force is used to prop up the parasites then the faster that society dies.

And the solution is real simple, you don't even have to shoot the fucking parasites: you just have to stop feeding them.

You do have to shoot any fuckwit forcing society to feed the parasites though.
See my post on not having a clue,

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[Ocean1]

See my post on not having a clue,

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https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/122031-My-first-poll-for-the-NZ-public?p=1131048141#post1131048141

[Brian d marge]

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/122031-My-first-poll-for-the-NZ-
public?p=1131048141#post1131048141 (https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/122031-My-first-poll-for-the-NZ-public?p=1131048141#post1131048141)

"my" post , but we can use yours it achieves a similar purpose. In the mean time , how its the formation of the ideas regarding " communism or socialism going?

Strung together a half decent repost?

[Ocean1]

"my" post , but we can use yours it achieves a similar purpose. In the mean time , how its the formation of the ideas regarding " communism or socialism going?

Strung together a half decent repost?


:nya: :laugh::laugh::laugh:

..................

[TheDemonLord]

Most, if not all successful ancient cultures were communists. In fact, without communism the society collapses.

Uwotm8?

Care to back that up? Considering most would be free market capitalist societies being either a democracy (Romans and Greeks) Monarchies (Rule Brittania, Spain), Dictatorships (Ceasar, Ghengis Kharn) or theocracies (The Vatican and it's influence).

[Brian d marge]

Uwotm8?

Care to back that up? Considering most would be free market capitalist societies being either a democracy (Romans and Greeks) Monarchies (Rule Brittania, Spain), Dictatorships (Ceasar, Ghengis Kharn) or theocracies (The Vatican and it's influence).
American Indians , abbos, Saxons before the Romans, reindeer herders
And if u give me some time , I'll think of a whole ton more
And if you want I will tell you why
But .....( might do that off thread as I don't want to influence my dearest oceans contemplation )

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[Ocean1]

And if you want I will tell you why
But .....( might do that off thread as I don't want anyone to point out that I was shown to be completely full of shite last time I mad that claim.)

:nya::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Brian d marge]

:nya:[emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]
Go on then , balls in your court
Show me where I was full of shyte

,Communism and socialism are the topic
And I said " you don't know what ur talking about"

Game set and match , to the man wearing the tinfoil hat ,I reckon

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[TheDemonLord]

American Indians , abbos, Saxons before the Romans, reindeer herders
And if u give me some time , I'll think of a whole ton more
And if you want I will tell you why
But .....( might do that off thread as I don't want to influence my dearest oceans contemplation )

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But - you said "Successful"....

The Inuit, the Native Americans and Aboriginals - not exactly high on the success rankings - No great Empires, No major advances in Science or Technology, No great trading networks, No great literary works.

All Insular and isolated peoples (with the exceptions of the Saxons)

I'd also challenge that they were Communist - since they never got passed the extended family/tribal unit stage.

[Brian d marge]

But - you said "Successful"....

The Inuit, the Native Americans and Aboriginals - not exactly high on the success rankings - No great Empires, No major advances in Science or Technology, No great trading networks, No great literary works.

All Insular and isolated peoples (with the exceptions of the Saxons)

I'd also challenge that they were Communist - since they never got passed the extended family/tribal unit stage.
You might have to review those thoughts
They did quite well for many a year.
Granted , a reindeer in the corners is slightly better than a Enfield and not as good as a cx500
But u must admit they did quite well for quite a bit longer than our attempt.


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[TheDemonLord]

You might have to review those thoughts
They did quite well for many a year.
Granted , a reindeer in the corners is slightly better than a Enfield and not as good as a cx500
But u must admit they did quite well for quite a bit longer than our attempt.


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Did they?

Look at the Chinese, the Vikings, the Greeks, The Egyptians, The Persians.

Sorry - the best they did was Survive - and the ultimate proof of the pudding is what happened when they encountered Civilizations that were ACTUALLY successful...

[Brian d marge]

Did they?

Look at the Chinese, the Vikings, the Greeks, The Egyptians, The Persians.

Sorry - the best they did was Survive - and the ultimate proof of the pudding is what happened when they encountered Civilizations that were ACTUALLY successful...
What about the Chinese , the Vikings the Egyptians, the Persians
Where would u like to start?
The Chinese trading silver for the Egyptian gold ? Which required slaves and guards supplied by war
The Persians resistance against the Greek fiat money?
And these are examples of successful civilizations?
Meanwhile in mud huts in the Amazon jungle the natives keep trundling on in a bottom up Communistic tradition.....

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[TheDemonLord]

What about the Chinese , the Vikings the Egyptians, the Persians
Where would u like to start?
The Chinese trading silver for the Egyptian gold ? Which required slaves and guards supplied by war
The Persians resistance against the Greek fiat money?
And these are examples of successful civilizations?
Meanwhile in mud huts in the Amazon jungle the natives keep trundling on in a bottom up Communistic tradition.....

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Well, depends on your definition for success - but if it makes you happy:

We still use Greek Formulas (Pythagoras...)
We still use Persian numbers
We still use countless things that were first invented in China (Pasta, Gun Powder etc. etc.)
We still use Norse day names (Thor's Day)

What do we use from some no-name Amazon Jungle native today?

[Brian d marge]

Well, depends on your definition for success - but if it makes you happy:

We still use Greek Formulas (Pythagoras...)
We still use Persian numbers
We still use countless things that were first invented in China (Pasta, Gun Powder etc. etc.)
We still use Norse day names (Thor's Day)

What do we use from some no-name Amazon Jungle native today?
That's what happens when u follow a path
One could argue if it's the right path?
The knowledge , we have is different, is it any better , ? Horses for courses.
I would argue the ancients were a hell of a lot smarter than us now , and we have been desperately trying to recover that lost knowledge.
Those monks in Scotland weren't there , for a meditative holiday



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[TheDemonLord]

That's what happens when u follow a path
One could argue if it's the right path?
The knowledge , we have is different, is it any better , ? Horses for courses.
I would argue the ancients were a hell of a lot smarter than us now , and we have been desperately trying to recover that lost knowledge.
Those monks in Scotland weren't there , for a meditative holiday


Right path or Wrong path - Success is passing on aspects of your culture to the next generation - The ones I listed did, the ones you listed didn't - yet your original claims was that there were successful ancient Cultures that were Communist in nature.

Which brings me back to my original point: Communism isn't a recipe for Success.

Is it any better? Well, I'd take Internet and Motorbikes over Mud huts and starvation any day...

However in regards to Lost Knowledge - you may wish to listen to some more of Jordan Peterson's lectures - he has a lot to say about Ancient Mythology and how it relates to our being.

[Brian d marge]

Right path or Wrong path - Success is passing on aspects of your culture to the next generation - The ones I listed did, the ones you listed didn't - yet your original claims was that there were successful ancient Cultures that were Communist in nature.

Which brings me back to my original point: Communism isn't a recipe for Success.

Is it any better? Well, I'd take Internet and Motorbikes over Mud huts and starvation any day...

However in regards to Lost Knowledge - you may wish to listen to some more of Jordan Peterson's lectures - he has a lot to say about Ancient Mythology and how it relates to our being.

I will listen to Jordans lectures , I'm interested
But the passing down , off knowledge , I suspect the abbos have been doing quite a reasonable job of that.
I submit , that the knowledge our civilization has been hording the good stuff and passing down the garbage, so that a few can relive the golden age.
So, my original statement still stands. ( By now I'm guessing , u have figured out what communism actually is , and not the hijacked crap written by a sponsored Mason )



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[mashman]

Ubuntu advocate has a chat with a CBO:
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Another conversation with a capitalist business owner (CBO)

CBO: If it wasn't for capitalism and the money system, you would not have that car you drive, cell phone, computer...

me: So capitalism and money made/make everything?

CBO: YES!

me: Do you have a dollar bill on you?

CBO: Yes.

me: Please place it on the table, i want to show you something about it.

CBO: Ok (places dollar on table).

me: Hello money. Please get off the table and go build me a car, cell phone, computer...

CBO looks at me strangely

me: can you please ask/tell your dollar to get off the table and go build you a car, cell phone, computer...

CBO: It can't.

me: Why not?

CBO: People need to make those things.

me: But you told me if it was not for capitalism and the money system, we would not have cars, cell phones, computers...

CBO: Yes because people would not make those things if they did not get paid.

me: So people would not work if they did not receive something that is created/printed/typed out of thin air?

CBO: Yes.

me: What would they do without money/capitalism?

CBO: Nothing.

me: They would not grow food? They would not make clothing? They would not make housing/shelter?

CBO: No

me: How would they live?

CBO: (Looking puzzled)

me: So people would be born, do nothing, and die in a few days and humanity would have never existed?

CBO: (Looking more puzzled)

me: What came first money or people?

CBO: (Looking even more puzzled) Umm i guess people.

me: If people were here first how did they survive without money?

CBO: Yeah but people would not work and make the nice things we have today without money.

me: Why not?

CBO: No answer

me: They work now in EVERY company on the planet don't they?

CBO: Yeah but they are making money to do it

me: Do they do it for the money just so they can look at the money, or for what the money "buys/pays for" them?

CBO: For what the money buys/pays for them

me: And what kind of things would that be?

CBO: Well they use it to buy/pay for their mortgage/rent, property taxes, property insurance, property maintenance, utilities, transportation expenses, kids education, vacations, clothes, internet, cell phones, food to name a few things

me: In a no money world ALL of those would be FREE. So contributing/working just 3 hours a week in a no money/Contributionism world gives people MORE than they receive working 40-100+ hours a week in a money world.

Which is BETTER people working 40 - 100+ hours a week and barely surviving (working MORE having LESS) OR people contributing/working just 3 hours a week (as needed) and receiving EVERYTHING they need for a great life at NO financial costs (working LESS having MORE)?

CBO: But then i won't be rich and have my mansions, private jet, yacht, private island...

me: That would be a shame wouldn't it?

CBO: Yes it would!

me: So you agree we could still have nice things like transportation, cell phones, computers... by people working TOGETHER and SHARING just 3 hours a week, it's just you would no longer be rich?

CBO: No answer
----------------------------------------------------------------

Way to project ones entitlement onto everyone else. I guess it cushions the blow.

[TheDemonLord]

me: In a no money world ALL of those would be FREE. So contributing/working just 3 hours a week in a no money/Contributionism world gives people MORE than they receive working 40-100+ hours a week in a money world.

Except they aren't free.

There is still a cost associated with them.

It may not be a Monetary cost, but there is a Cost in terms of Time, Finite Resources, Skills etc.

The CBO should have countered that once we stopped being hunter gatherers, the degree of specialization means that a single person cannot learn all the skills in a lifetime. Thus the individual has to make choices: Do I become a Tent maker? a Hunter? a Wood Carver?

At which point comes the first economic problem: Since I can't learn all the skills to be entirely self-sufficient and maintain a comfortable existing to which I am accustomed, I have to get other people who have the skills I lack, to do those tasks which I cannot.

I can use Force (Slavery, threat of Violence)
I can use incentive (Barter, Payment)

Funnily enough - the CBO should have pointed this out. At which point he can then counter that Barter is an innefficient system of trade and to overcome this problem, a placeholder for something of Value that was portable, divisible, universally recognised etc. etc. was used.

Enter stage left: Money!

[Ocean1]

Enter stage left: Money!

Actually, he's got a point.

Asking anyone who doesn't believe money has that function to actually do work in exchange for money should have about the same effect as asking the money itself to do the work.

So what does that make someone who espouses that belief, but uses money for that function on an every day basis anyway?

[mashman]

So what does that make someone who espouses that belief, but uses money for that function on an every day basis anyway?

Smart enough to realise that other people's lives depend on them using money... and smart enough to realise that simply taking things, which would be according to their "philosophy" (and according to article v of the declaration of human rights), would result in them being violently thrown in jail. That may well have expanded your golf ball sized consciousness... but I doubt it, it being golf ball sized n all.

[Katman]

That may well have expanded your golf ball sized consciousness... but I doubt it, it being golf ball sized n all.

You give him far too much credit.

[Ocean1]

Smart enough to realise that other people's lives depend on them using money... and smart enough to realise that simply taking things, which would be according to their "philosophy" (and according to article v of the declaration of human rights), would result in them being violently thrown in jail. That may well have expanded your golf ball sized consciousness... but I doubt it, it being golf ball sized n all.

That's what I thought.

Hypocritical fuckwits.

[mashman]

That's what I thought.

Hypocritical fuckwits.

Foooooooour

[Brian d marge]

Except they aren't free.

There is still a cost associated with them.

I can use Force (Slavery, threat of Violence)
I can use incentive (Barter, Payment)


Enter stage left: Money!

absolutly there is a cost. The qquestion being is it a cost your happy to pay?

lets face it we have NO real experience with a completely free environment. Ubuntu , Linux , mates rate out the back of the railways workshop .

Jean Jacques Rousseau talks about this in the second chapter of his book "the social contract " , he talks about the slave hating the master if the incorrect incentive is applied

You are absolutely correct to use the word "incentive" . Now Im going to emerge from this pit I call a futon, and go down the pub; why ? cause me mate promised me free beer ,
Why he promised me free beer, because I helped him move apartments. LOTS of incentive here

lets expand on this, yesterday the community here in Japan has a "clean up your community day" you go and walk around the area picking up rubbish for a few hours once or twice a year . The incentive, I like living in a clean environment ,( they do beaches and parks , all end up with a pot luck BBQ

Expanding further, I wanted to expand my skill set , I helped design a part ( brake plate ) in the company of others more skilled than I ( i want to expand my CFD skill set and am using you tube atm )

On the other hand, I know countless of people who are at work at the moment hating their situation , because they ARE A SLAVE to bogus debt based currency

( IF you are going to use money it at least needs to be surplus based )

[TheDemonLord]

absolutly there is a cost. The qquestion being is it a cost your happy to pay?

I'm going to focus on this statement.

Once you have removed all money - Are you still happy to pay the cost? And then the next question: Is everyone else happy to pay the cost?

And perhaps more importantly - what IS that cost?

This links back to my position: Money isn't the problem, it's only a symptom.

[mashman]

( IF you are going to use money it at least needs to be surplus based )

On a finite planet... lmao.

[Brian d marge]

On a finite planet... lmao.
Is it?

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[TheDemonLord]

Is it?

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Unless you consider human Stupidity a resource...

[Katman]

Unless you consider human Stupidity a resource...

<img src="http://flatrock.org.nz/static/frontpage/assets/odds_and_oddities/extreme_iron.jpg"/>

[Brian d marge]

Unless you consider human Stupidity a resource...
As long as Tvnz keep them stupified and they are happy , then energy will flow , ( scientists call it the black hole theory of the universe)


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[Akzle]

An American investment banker was at the pier of a
small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with
just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat
were several large yellowfin tuna. The American
complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish
and asked how long it took to catch them.
The Mexican replied, “only a little while. The American
then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch
more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to
support his family’s immediate needs. The American
then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your
time?”
The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little,
play with my children, take siestas with my wife,
Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip
wine, and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full
and busy life.” The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard
MBA and could help you. You should spend more time
fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With
the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy
several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of
fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a
middleman you would sell directly to the processor,
eventually opening your own cannery. You would
control the product, processing, and distribution. You
would need to leave this small coastal fishing village
and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New
York City, where you will run your expanding
enterprise.”
The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this
all take?”
To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.”
“But what then?” Asked the Mexican.
The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part.
When the time is right you would announce an IPO
and sell your company stock to the public and become
very rich, you would make millions!”
“Millions – then what?”
The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to a
small coastal fishing village where you would sleep
late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with
your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where
you could sip wine and play your guitar with your
amigos.”

[Brian d marge]

An American investment banker was at the pier of a
small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with
just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat
were several large yellowfin tuna. The American
complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish
and asked how long it took to catch them.
The Mexican replied, “only a little while. The American
then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch
more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to
support his family’s immediate needs. The American
then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your
time?”
The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little,
play with my children, take siestas with my wife,
Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip
wine, and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full
and busy life.” The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard
MBA and could help you. You should spend more time
fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With
the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy
several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of
fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a
middleman you would sell directly to the processor,
eventually opening your own cannery. You would
control the product, processing, and distribution. You
would need to leave this small coastal fishing village
and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New
York City, where you will run your expanding
enterprise.”
The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this
all take?”
To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.”
“But what then?” Asked the Mexican.
The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part.
When the time is right you would announce an IPO
and sell your company stock to the public and become
very rich, you would make millions!”
“Millions – then what?”
The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to a
small coastal fishing village where you would sleep
late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with
your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where
you could sip wine and play your guitar with your
amigos.”
I take it the Mexicans wife is: either very flexible, and or meeting the needs of visiting investment bankers
[emoji12]

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[TheDemonLord]

An American investment banker was at the pier of a
small coastal Mexican village when a small boat with
just one fisherman docked. Inside the small boat
were several large yellowfin tuna. The American
complimented the Mexican on the quality of his fish
and asked how long it took to catch them.
The Mexican replied, “only a little while. The American
then asked why didn’t he stay out longer and catch
more fish? The Mexican said he had enough to
support his family’s immediate needs. The American
then asked, “but what do you do with the rest of your
time?”
The Mexican fisherman said, “I sleep late, fish a little,
play with my children, take siestas with my wife,
Maria, stroll into the village each evening where I sip
wine, and play guitar with my amigos. I have a full
and busy life.” The American scoffed, “I am a Harvard
MBA and could help you. You should spend more time
fishing and with the proceeds, buy a bigger boat. With
the proceeds from the bigger boat, you could buy
several boats, eventually you would have a fleet of
fishing boats. Instead of selling your catch to a
middleman you would sell directly to the processor,
eventually opening your own cannery. You would
control the product, processing, and distribution. You
would need to leave this small coastal fishing village
and move to Mexico City, then LA and eventually New
York City, where you will run your expanding
enterprise.”
The Mexican fisherman asked, “But, how long will this
all take?”
To which the American replied, “15 – 20 years.”
“But what then?” Asked the Mexican.
The American laughed and said, “That’s the best part.
When the time is right you would announce an IPO
and sell your company stock to the public and become
very rich, you would make millions!”
“Millions – then what?”
The American said, “Then you would retire. Move to a
small coastal fishing village where you would sleep
late, fish a little, play with your kids, take siestas with
your wife, stroll to the village in the evenings where
you could sip wine and play your guitar with your
amigos.”

Well, I laughed and it was a good joke, so I won't nitpick the oversimplifications.

[Akzle]

Well, I laughed and it was a good joke, so I won't nitpick the oversimplifications.

hahahaha. joke.


i'm guessing you're poor, too. poor like ocean.


s'orright. i dont actually give a fuck.

[Brian d marge]

hahahaha. joke.


i'm guessing you're poor, too. poor like ocean.


s'orright. i dont actually give a fuck.
And there's me with 2 dollars ..... Damn

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[mashman]

Is it?

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The way we're using it, yup. Tis somewhat ironical that people would rather spend the fuck out of the thing and bitch like hell when people don't save and live within their means. Still, not everyone has the capacity to extrapolate the externalities of commerce.

[Brian d marge]

The way we're using it, yup. Tis somewhat ironical that people would rather spend the fuck out of the thing and bitch like hell when people don't save and live within their means. Still, not everyone has the capacity to extrapolate the externalities of commerce.
Well we won't be able to use some areas for a while , but the basics are not going anywhere soon,

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[mashman]

Clean energy won’t save us – only a new economic system can (https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2016/jul/15/clean-energy-wont-save-us-economic-system-can)... yer not wrong there fella.

[mashman]

Saw this and thought of you.

332006

[mashman]

What happens when A) There's less to extract. B) Production is automated. I have a feeling we'll find out within the next 20 years. B will likely come first, and if it doesn't, then A is a given. The economy cannot survive, in its current state, either... unless you talk to Ocean :killingme.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9GorqroigqM

[mashman]

Consider what the future will be. Essentially we need to move on in terms of technology. We need to do so from a Climate/Environment/Pollution etc... point of view, which will require an RBE. And we need to do so from a business efficiency point of view within the current political and economic constraints. That's the overview.

A business needs to do this upgrade in order to ensure its place in the market. That means that our logical future is that of individual businesses using automation as a means of becoming more efficient on many fronts. Especially in $ terms. This is a problem for the workforce. These people will have been "trained" in an area of the economy that is being automated. It should happen quickly (transition to RBE requires rapid adoption of technology). But it will be drawn out given the speed at which our current economy grows. Either way, the technology is going to be implemented.

I'm sure you understand how not good for the economy that is? Not just from the human perspective, but from a financial perspective. Less disposable income = less consumption = less tax = less $ from loss of production = less tax = less $ to sustain a growing workforce. To simplify. Someone's employee is someone else's customer/employer. This affects employer and employee alike.

This comes back to the transition to RBE requires rapid adoption of technology. But not in RBE terms. This is from an entirely financial perspective, using all of the tools that exist today. As I mentioned earlier, the technology shift is coming whether we like it or not, else the countries business won't be able to compete with production from overseas. What needs to be done is to encourage and purposefully implement the rapid adoption of technology for those companies that are truly ready to do it.

Consider this approach in terms of a new business ethic on behalf of both the employer and employee.

Example:

I'll use the current IRD decision as an example to underline what could have happened, had the approach you are about to read have been implemented. This approach is cost-neutral. 4000 people are on the chopping block. This means that we will potentially have 4000 people claiming some form of benefit. Either way, this also highlights that there is software to replace a wide range of jobs. This highlights that as businesses drive for efficiency, they have the ability to implement software that can replace accountants etc... The associated loss in tax revenue is one concern. There are other concerns, but I'm here to explain how the individual, business, government and wider economy could embrace the same technology, without seeing potentially 4000 human beings claiming some form of benefit. Did I mention that this is also cost neutral?

The IRD didn't just decide to let these people go. At some point in the past, a decision was made to implement a system that would potentially put 4000 people out of work. As such, let’s pretend that that decision was made 4 years ago.

In this scenario, we're going to assume that I was making the decision on how to handle the loss of those 4000 people 4 years ago. I would have suggested that we implemented the phase in of the software over a period of 5 years. The first 1/2 years will see the software implemented and "administered" by those 4000 people. The second 2/3 years would see those 4000 people fully paid, but not performing the job. This keeps us within the boundaries of the solution being cost neutral. After all, I’m making the decision and I see value in 4000 people having 2/3 years to retrain on full pay where they were going to be left with less income and the potential of a large retraining bill in industries that can be replaced by software. Everyone, and the economy benefits. It was all going to happen anyway, so it's cost neutral.

End example

That's our economic future using the tools we have today. Our social future. Well. You've seen the evidence. Reckon it might start to look a little brighter? heh. Makes the vertical farms look easy. Someone's employee is someone else's customer/employer.

I like this bit best for, what should be, obvious reasons. This does not have to be implemented by the government, nor have any need for government oversight. It is entirely up to the business community to figure out whether they'd like to do something together, or go it alone.

[mashman]

Oooooooo the above would be so useful for the economy right NOW ha ha ha haaaaaaa... coz it would, but no, let's create a situation were more borrowing is required and continue the madness. A little graphic on the telly box showed satellite air pollution levels before and after, and it was another good candidate for highlighting AGW (not saying that AGW is THE sole reason for heating, but our activity does have a larger effect). The people aren't eating each other either, they're simply finding something else to do... but unfortunately in conditions where they can't go out and do something else. Bit of a stretch to use the above given that much of the income coming in to Wuhan is from Exports, but it would certainly help those who live pay to pay or whose business is on its last legs and so on... and all without producing a thing (coz they're at home and not dead... food still arrives, water still flows, electricity is still generated, doctors/nurses are still "healing"... what else is really needed.). They'll probably just claim against the insurance instead and get back to it once the all clear is sounded... shame.

[mashman]

Wellbeing versus GDP: The Challenge and Opportunity of Human Development in the 21st Century (https://council.science/human-development/latest-contributions/wellbeing-versus-gdp-the-challenge-and-opportunity-of-human-development-in-the-21st-century)... Bit more like it...

[mashman]

An economist who has incorporated the externalities of production into her model and a pretty good analysis to go with it. Production gotta go bye bye, but that requires new economics that they aren't quite talking about yet, because shooting for sustainability is about as far from growth and capitalism friendly as things get when ya stick to the evidence and ignore human opinion with regards to what needs to be done. Enjoy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJqhmr0K-4M

[mashman]

These things did not and are not happening by accident. All action that has led us to this point, these points, has outcomes that were known before they were implemented. The results of decisions made are very much evident.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfJI88RL0ZU

[mashman]

Providing decent living with minimum energy: A global scenario (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0959378020307512)...

I saw this (great analysis btw) and thought of you for some reason.

"Decent living is of course a subjective concept in public discourse. However, the current work offers a response to the clichéd populist objection that environmentalists are proposing that we return to living in caves. With tongue firmly in cheek, the response roughly goes ‘Yes, perhaps, but these caves have highly-efficient facilities for cooking, storing food and washing clothes; low-energy lighting throughout; 50 L of clean water supplied per day per person, with 15 L heated to a comfortable bathing temperature; they maintain an air temperature of around 20 °C throughout the year, irrespective of geography; have a computer with access to global ICT networks; are linked to extensive transport networks providing ~5000–15,000 km of mobility per person each year via various modes; and are also served by substantially larger caves where universal healthcare is available and others that provide education for everyone between 5 and 19 years old.’ And at the same time, it is possible that the amount of people’s lives that must be spent working would be substantially reduced."

[R650R]

So would we have access to current technology or is this a cut the rope moment and your on your own with what you’ve got?
If there’s no trade what happens when my crops fail how do I get more food for my family. Given that with no means to trade or store extra earnings there will be no incentive to produce more than ones own needs.
Who will repeat the Green propoganda when you can’t pay someone to do that lol
Will some guy walk on water and carry a book telling us all how to live the new way, perhaps a set of Ten Commandments or something....
Whose going to do the crap jobs when there’s no incentive or reward?

Anyhow your experiment t will be realised in a generation or two. The elite want us living in smart cities in a technocratic dictatorship. And we will all love it to save the rest of the planet that we can’t travel to...

[mashman]

So would we have access to current technology or is this a cut the rope moment and your on your own with what you’ve got?

We may get access to better technology than we publicly currently know we have. At the moment we can't have that sort of stuff coz tech unemployment and the effects on the economy. When a collective effort is required, which it very much is, it's a, here's an extra rope in case the current one breaks, moment. As the document mentions, it'll take an across the board effort from producer to consumer.


If there’s no trade what happens when my crops fail how do I get more food for my family. Given that with no means to trade or store extra earnings there will be no incentive to produce more than ones own needs.

NZ produces enough to feed 10 million people, yet trade keeps people hungry, and earnings keep people keeping it that way, because that's how things are incentivised. The energy outlined is unaffordable. You could trying reading the link ya know :killingme... The incentive is to see a future unfold that is actually sustainable from an energy perspective at bare minimum.


Who will repeat the Green propoganda when you can’t pay someone to do that lol

That's kind of the point... coz what propaganda is required when you're doing things for purpose and not simply to facilitate trade?


Will some guy walk on water and carry a book telling us all how to live the new way, perhaps a set of Ten Commandments or something....

I was thinking more along the lines of corporate persons coming to terms with choosing to do things because they make sense rather than endlessly waiting for some authority to tell them which is the right way to be going about things... coz that don't always turn out too good does it ;).


Whose going to do the crap jobs when there’s no incentive or reward?

Well, if we cut energy appropriately there'll be a large enough workforce available that such jobs could become some form of 'national service'. Such a service could be 1 year of your life in 1 crap job. Incentive enough? Or do you really need a reward to sooth your ego too?


Anyhow your experiment t will be realised in a generation or two. The elite want us living in smart cities in a technocratic dictatorship. And we will all love it to save the rest of the planet that we can’t travel to...

Correct, because ya'll are doing fuck all else to prevent such from taking place outwith pointing and screaming "Commy", "Greeny", "Pinko", "Hippy", as if someone else is gonna actually do something about it for ya simply because you're pointing. Divine Comedy alright, but a tragedy without question thus far given the critical thinking on display.

[R650R]

Reply Mashman

Quote 1 tech was in regard to the choice of either today’s world or some new black magic energy source yet undiscovered

Quote 2 we only produce extra food at moment due to capitalist motivations. Even right now the primary sector is struggling to find people that WANT to work, let alone have the required skills and attitude.

Quote 3 natural human nature someone will want to be in charge. Some humans are naturally lazy and will want for morevthan they can produce. They may have items of high value naturally available on their plot which they will seek to illegally trade for advantage.... someone will need to broadcast the rules continuously just like a cult you need to remind people why they are there lol

Quote last... we all doing f all for change as we are involuntary bound to the current system. To try live outside of it soon brings you to the realm of drifter/outcast or at worst enemy of the state. Even to build your own housing/food supply/energy source outside the system breaches laws which will inevitably see you imprisoned.

If you want to see how your utopia works go to any of our poverty stricken small towns in remote areas. You’ll see that all that happens when there is no incentive or reward to work. Some of those people are probably happy with that as they don’t know any other lifestyle. But I sure as hell know where I’d like to live....

[mashman]

Quote 1 tech was in regard to the choice of either today’s world or some new black magic energy source yet undiscovered

Same answer stands. Tomorrows tech requires very different economics to todays.


Quote 2 we only produce extra food at moment due to capitalist motivations. Even right now the primary sector is struggling to find people that WANT to work, let alone have the required skills and attitude.


Same answer stands. Now you sound like an old man defending old ways, you know, like tdl and berkboy. The link is explaining the sorts of change that is required and your responses are still ignoring that. It's called change for a reason, not tinker around the edges.


Quote 3 natural human nature someone will want to be in charge. Some humans are naturally lazy and will want for morevthan they can produce. They may have items of high value naturally available on their plot which they will seek to illegally trade for advantage.... someone will need to broadcast the rules continuously just like a cult you need to remind people why they are there lol

Human nature :killingme... Monkey see monkey choose to do according to the Dunedin Experiment and pretty much any objective anaysis of why people do things. Ironic though, if you blame God it isn't human nature. Items of value? did you read the link? There will be less jobs to do so yeah there will be some people doing nothing. Accepting this to be the case comes under the guise of growing the fuck up, because it needs to happen whether you like it or not... and indeed Klaus and Co have their variant on the way.


Quote last... we all doing f all for change as we are involuntary bound to the current system. To try live outside of it soon brings you to the realm of drifter/outcast or at worst enemy of the state. Even to build your own housing/food supply/energy source outside the system breaches laws which will inevitably see you imprisoned.

You should go into comedy. The system isn't the problem. Corporate persons are and their want to see the only solution be a financial solution that allows them to buy more shit desite the fact that that is the very behaviour that is currently fecking things up. Seriously, the link is right there :laugh:


If you want to see how your utopia works go to any of our poverty stricken small towns in remote areas. You’ll see that all that happens when there is no incentive or reward to work. Some of those people are probably happy with that as they don’t know any other lifestyle. But I sure as hell know where I’d like to live....

My utopia? Stupidest assumption you've made yet. Haven't you got some RuskiCoin to count or some Commycs to read.

[R650R]

Your very big on philosophy but short on substance with regards to changes....

What’s the obsession with corporate CEOs... yes they get paid too much but that’s a very small part of the problem. Their wages equal that of 10-30 normal workers... all that gives them is slighter flasher car or house etc otherwise not much is different.
In fact all that lavish spending creates entire new jobs and industries which we benefit from even in NZ....

There are many third world countries you could move to and live a life without money or trade... be a very interesting experiment....

[mashman]

Your very big on philosophy but short on substance with regards to changes....

lol. I can explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you. You see the world as you are. All kind of important philosophical points when removing ones ego/bias/dissonance/etc... from the translation of that which someone else has said/written... or not as it far too often the case (and backed by an echo chamber that's just as dumb, well, monkey see monkey do).

I can explain to you how to end involuntary homelessness without changing much of anything should you wish. You understanding it however... let's just say that I Am skepitcal. I know you can, but whether you will choose to or not is anoter matter. Asking questions about something you don't really know anything about, well, that's a critical thinking novelty v's the more oft used subjective hell of assumptions. Deep eh :bleh:



What’s the obsession with corporate CEOs... yes they get paid too much but that’s a very small part of the problem. Their wages equal that of 10-30 normal workers... all that gives them is slighter flasher car or house etc otherwise not much is different.
In fact all that lavish spending creates entire new jobs and industries which we benefit from even in NZ....


If you mean by my referencing Corporate Persons = corporate CEO's, then nah, I use that term instead of the term sheeple. Slightly set apart from the Sovereign Being.

If you meant it as a general, wtf is wrong with people bagging the owners of production given that that's how things work, then there are many reasons, ranging from hippy to envy, justified or not. Cool CEO story bro, 'My' utopia would send every CEO home, and the employees if possible, on full pay where their business is classed as Non-Essential. They get paid to do nothing. The economics to make this happen exist today. The understanding in a world that demands that you must sing for your supper even if it is destroying the planet..................



There are many third world countries you could move to and live a life without money or trade... be a very interesting experiment....

Without being nihilistic, but what does burying ones head in the sand accomplish? Did you read the link :killingme........

[mashman]

'My' utopia would send every CEO home, and the employees if possible, on full pay where their business is classed as Non-Essential. They get paid to do nothing. The economics to make this happen exist today. The understanding in a world that demands that you must sing for your supper even if it is destroying the planet..................

In fact, those economics showed up again a few hours after the post quoted was posted because of a virus. Shame we don't do similar on purpose, coz we could literally be using various sections of road for more frequent road racing :shifty:

[mashman]

Finally got to speak to someone, something, an intelligence (https://www.facebook.com/GM4Mana/posts/514891730656920), that knows what it's talking about. Fun tool with a feck tonne of knowledge and the ability to apply it mentally. For Dave: A brain that still hasn't matched my own dontcha know.

Anyhoo, I bring you logic, reason and common sense in the form of a financial approach that's now better than cost neutral in order to end involuntary homelessness in NZ. 'start from here' All it takes is parking your ego at the door and patiently realising just what there is to gain simply by saying, "hey, that's worth a crack.".

Pro Tip: It is highly unlikely that you will like what AI has to say and will therefore blame the information provided to AI. If (you find that happening) GOTO 'start from here'.

C'mon, I know there's a human being in there struggling to get out. Here's your chance to do something that the establishment hasn't been able to :blip: