ESE's works engine tuner

[Nath88]

Has anyone ever heard of a ' lean burning 2 stroke engine"... past or present?:sherlock: i read recently about 4 stroke lean burners wondered if it had been tried on a 2 stroke...

I've run my injected YZ250 at more than 19:1 ratio (off the scale on the lambda sensor) on highway cruise, about 5-10% throttle. Injection rate of 2L/100km. Ran smoothly with no misfire for 8 seconds until power started to roll off, throttle response was very weak. After that it ran fine, piston and plug looked normal. I found some info from light aircraft people talking about 'lean of peak' operation on 2 strokes, however they tend to be a bit more conservative. Also the cruise load for a plane is probably a higher than a bike. I think lean burn could work for light throttle, fuel economy is impressive if it can be sustained.

[Haufen]

Has anyone ever heard of a ' lean burning 2 stroke engine"... past or present?:sherlock: i read recently about 4 stroke lean burners wondered if it had been tried on a 2 stroke...

HCCI for example is a lean burn combustion process. Also any Diesel is typically running with excess air.

[Lightbulb]

On models they had lean burning glow plug engines to more range. So the fuel had no methanol in it. But would fail a plug if it truly did run lean. I developed a squish band toroidal head that could run lean without failing the glow plug. The result of the model engines running lean was a big end on the rod bush failing. It may have still worked if it had a miniature needle roller set up like some have made. I never have gone down that track yet with the model engines. But with hcci on the horizon that maybe the missing link.

[lodgernz]

Hi Guys,
This is my first post here. Spent many an evening trawling through this thread. Have to say, the knowledge and tips that have been shared is astonishing, and long may it continue.
Great to see the projects people are working on too.
The only trouble is that I should be working and not reading this thread, but there's so much to learn that work will have to take a back seat until I'm all up to date. And as it's 8pm here in Thailand, I think that I'm allowed a tea break.
Cheers.

Welcome Matt (no pun intended). I take it that you are the Matt Patterson of Tyga Thailand?

[MattPatterson]

Welcome Matt (no pun intended). I take it that you are the Matt Patterson of Tyga Thailand?

Yep, that's me.

[TZ350]

The transfers were flowed with the piston in 4 positions 25% open, 50%, 75% and fully open

Very interesting, is that 25% of window area or 25% crankshaft degrees of opening? Thanks.

[jamathi]

Very interesting, is that 25% of window area or 25% crankshaft degrees of opening? Thanks.

25% of window area.

[jamathi]

Nice stuff; it will ease operating a conventional flow bench.
It won't however correct the shortcomings of a conventional flow bench: much lower pressures and temperatures than in a firing engine, and no pulsed flow.

I never missed higher pressures or pulsing flow.....
Still not see the necessity.
And the engine does that already, measure the air consumption if you like to know that.

[polinizei]

I tried that 90% exhaust mod a couple days ago. Its a 135cc engine with 58 x 51mm, single exhaust duct, 30mm carb and fan cooled. The rear wheel power is about 30 HP.
The mod brought no power gain, but had more power fading (2-3HP) due heating the cylinder much more.
After removing the sheetmetal part, the power characteristics was back.

But I have to say: it worked well in engmod :-)


It think I should go the old fashioned way and enlarge the duct in little steps...

[Pursang]

Its a 135cc engine with 58 x 51mm, single exhaust duct, 30mm carb and fan cooled. The rear wheel power is about 30 HP....

30RWHP That sounds wonderful, I need some of that, will you please show what the transfer ports look like?

EDIT!! That's OK I think I've found it.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/wwimages/30e0d366-bb76-4c6e-80cd-fde57621be1f.jpg

Cheers, Daryl

[Greg85]

The first flow bench I got was at Garelli, in 1982, I learned a lot from it.
When I started work at Aprilia I was amazed there was no flow bench.
But one was bought very quickly....
Very good, above all, for exhaust duct development!
A smaller duct with more flow always improved power!
For scavenging it does not make much sense....
As the various flows must slow down each other.
But we did it anyway, to check eventual differences.
It was also helpful for improving the cooling system.
As the water circulation must be as quick as possible, to prevent hot spots...
No cylinder ever left Aprilia without having been flowed!

The exhaust duct was flowed with the piston in different positions:
1mm open, then 2 and 3mm, the blowdown, fully open.
And the auxiliaries and the central ducts separately.

The transfers were flowed with the piston in 4 positions
25% open, 50%, 75% and fully open
Hello mr jan about very interesting about the flowbench I would like to have your expertise about the pictures of the result of a cylinder tm to the jaros thank you very much 331962331963331964331965331966

[polinizei]

30RWHP That sounds wonderful, I need some of that, will you please show what the transfer ports look like?

EDIT!! That's OK I think I've found it.

https://www.sip-scootershop.com/en/wwimages/30e0d366-bb76-4c6e-80cd-fde57621be1f.jpg

Cheers, Daryl

On the picture you see the briged exhaust type. I dont use that.
Search for: Art.Nr.75041440

[adegnes]

I'm about 10 pages behind and have to catch up on the conversation, but...
I might have had a 24/7 experience.
First(and only) dyno run with the Spx today produced 17whp. No subsequent runs because the rotary valve had come loose from the crank, and also had developed some cracks and needs to be replaced.
Last session I got 16,3 hp, and the only difference this time was a slightly thinner straight section on the needle - should not affect WOT at all.

Either the valve shifted slightly on the crank, and this was better, or it got stuck open and that was better. It was stuck shut when i teared it down.
Interesting.

[Peter1962]

What polite request ?you have never made one single previous request to me for anything at all, as for answers you have never asked me a single question.
So i am quite confused as to what you are taking about?



husa, I think that luc is refering to me, some time ago I posted a direct link to the patent (pending) papers, with some comment on the drawings and all that. Luc send me a private message with the request to withdraw the name of the inventor (which -of course- anyone can read in those papers, that is the point of a patent aplication...)
I chose not to do so, because there is no point in doing so. The papers are out in the public domain since february, what is the point in acting like there is a "mister Ryger" ? That is a clear lie...
I do not feel comfortable in such hypocrisy and it is in everyones richt to discuss documents that are in the public domain.
You can not file for a patent and then think that you can do so in an anonimous way.

[FastFred]

I might have had a 24/7 experience.

First(and only) dyno run with the Spx today produced 17whp. No subsequent runs because the rotary valve had come loose from the crank. Either the valve shifted slightly on the crank, and this was better, or it got stuck open and that was better. It was stuck shut when i teared it down. Interesting.

Very possibly 24/7, I recall a similar story from way back in the day when a rotary valve racing engine was being dyno tested. The RV stuck open and the engine ran fine on WOT and continued to make maximum power until the throttle was closed.

[Flettner]

husa, I think that luc is refering to me, some time ago I posted a direct link to the patent (pending) papers, with some comment on the drawings and all that. Luc send me a private message with the request to withdraw the name of the inventor (which -of course- anyone can read in those papers, that is the point of a patent aplication...)
I chose not to do so, because there is no point in doing so. The papers are out in the public domain since february, what is the point in acting like there is a "mister Ryger" ? That is a clear lie...
I do not feel comfortable in such hypocrisy and it is in everyones richt to discuss documents that are in the public domain.
You can not file for a patent and then think that you can do so in an anonimous way.

Is Luc not the full compliment? He needs to apologise to Husa, if nothing else. That tongue of his flapping around like a Ryger transfer reed:whistle:

[adegnes]

Very possibly 24/7, I recall a similar story from way back in the day when a rotary valve racing engine was being dyno tested. The RV stuck open and the engine ran fine on WOT and continued to make maximum power until the throttle was closed.

Now as I'm waiting for a replacement valve would be the perfect time for some research on the matter.
Wonder if I could get it started and into the powerband with a reedvalve mounted on the bellmouth of the carb? Would effectively make the carb part of the crankcase. Sounds like a bad idea, but simple enough so I'll have to try it.
Nitromethanol could be an advantage here, as long as you pour in enough it doesn't seem to be very picky about the a/f ratio.

[Norman]

husa, I think that luc is refering to me, some time ago I posted a direct link to the patent (pending) papers, with some comment on the drawings and all that. Luc send me a private message with the request to withdraw the name of the inventor (which -of course- anyone can read in those papers, that is the point of a patent aplication...)
I chose not to do so, because there is no point in doing so. The papers are out in the public domain since february, what is the point in acting like there is a "mister Ryger" ? That is a clear lie...
I do not feel comfortable in such hypocrisy and it is in everyones richt to discuss documents that are in the public domain.
You can not file for a patent and then think that you can do so in an anonimous way.

I agree. I know I sent a reference to the February 2017 R-patent a while ago. I think maybe I was first out with a reference and should be the bad guy. So, why hit on you and Husaberg? Sorry for that.

[jamathi]

Hello mr jan about very interesting about the flowbench I would like to have your expertise about the pictures of the result of a cylinder tm to the jaros thank you very much 331962331963331964331965331966

There was a Jaros flow bench at Aprilia, it proved to be useless, with unrepeatable results...
And even with repeatable results it is useless.
Think of moving piston, pressure pulses, circumstances constantly changing on both sides of the piston!
The only way I found of testing various transfers was by actually making them.
And testing them for power!
The results were quite good....

[husaberg]

husa, I think that luc is refering to me, some time ago I posted a direct link to the patent (pending) papers, with some comment on the drawings and all that. Luc send me a private message with the request to withdraw the name of the inventor (which -of course- anyone can read in those papers, that is the point of a patent aplication...)
I chose not to do so, because there is no point in doing so. The papers are out in the public domain since february, what is the point in acting like there is a "mister Ryger" ? That is a clear lie...
I do not feel comfortable in such hypocrisy and it is in everyones richt to discuss documents that are in the public domain.
You can not file for a patent and then think that you can do so in an anonimous way.
Frits had posted the patent as well;)

Is Luc not the full compliment? He needs to apologise to Husa, if nothing else. That tongue of his flapping around like a Ryger transfer reed:whistle:
You are naughty

I agree. I know I sent a reference to the February 2017 R-patent a while ago. I think maybe I was first out with a reference and should be the bad guy. So, why hit on you and Husaberg? Sorry for that.

I think luc objects to the patent being in the public domain and being discussed, which is odd as thats exactly what happens when you patent something.
if they wanted to to remain a secret they should have patented under a name not associated with Ryger.
That said if he had asked politely (or at least not utterly rudely) i would have removed the reference to the creator in what i posted.
But he didn't. Quite the opposite.
The Ryger may be the best thing since sliced bread, but with an attitude like that running the PR, people are going to think they are a scam out for quick dough.

[F5 Dave]

Still think he's a troll with nothing to do with it.

[ken seeber]

Jan, did you ever try using a Jante rig with a series (or sometimes called a comb) of very fine pitot tubes that were traversed across the top of the cylinder (with the head off) whilst blowing air into the crankcase and the piston at varying transfer port heights? A static crank rig. From this a map or pattern could be generated of the upward velocity component of the scavenging flow. Sometimes also done with a motored engine, again with head off. I know Blair was a bit supportive of this method. But in the end, they also a developed a single cycle rig that motored the engine over for just one revolution and, using CO2 in the crankcase (bit hazy on this one), measured the residue CO2 in the cylinder to gauge the trapping efficiency.

[jamathi]

Jan, did you ever try using a Jante rig with a series (or sometimes called a comb) of very fine pitot tubes that were traversed across the top of the cylinder (with the head off) whilst blowing air into the crankcase and the piston at varying transfer port heights? A static crank rig. From this a map or pattern could be generated of the upward velocity component of the scavenging flow. Sometimes also done with a motored engine, again with head off. I know Blair was a bit supportive of this method. But in the end, they also a developed a single cycle rig that motored the engine over for just one revolution and, using CO2 in the crankcase (bit hazy on this one), measured the residue CO2 in the cylinder to gauge the trapping efficiency.

Yes, we made such a rig at Jamathi, used it many years
I even 'flowed' a Suzuki 500/4 works cylinder on it that Barry Sheene brought for me to Bultaco....
When Bultaco closed it stayed there.
I can't say I missed it afterwards.....
A 'real' flow bench proved to be much more useful.

[Frits Overmars]

Now as I'm waiting for a replacement valve would be the perfect time for some research on the matter.
Wonder if I could get it started and into the powerband with a reedvalve mounted on the bellmouth of the carb?Welcome to the wonderful world of 24/7 Alex. In order to get a 24/t engine started you can even put a hand-held reed valve against the carb bellmouth.

[adegnes]

Welcome to the wonderful world of 24/7 Alex. In order to get a 24/t engine started you can even put a hand-held reed valve against the carb bellmouth.
My thought exactly!

[adegnes]

Just a thought.
Some of you may remember when I was struggling with getting the Spx to rev and discovered the intake valve was loose and able to shift about 30° on the crank. You may also remember that fixing it made no difference at all. Almost like the engine didn't care, at least not about intake close timing.
Frustrating then, interesting now.

[Greg85]

There was a Jaros flow bench at Aprilia, it proved to be useless, with unrepeatable results...
And even with repeatable results it is useless.
Think of moving piston, pressure pulses, circumstances constantly changing on both sides of the piston!
The only way I found of testing various transfers was by actually making them.
And testing them for power!
The results were quite good....

Thanks for the answer mr jan, i will test this several levels, right now i test that 2 level 16 and 40 mm but you say useless for you the results are insignificant not precise enough? I look in a post you worked with a flowbench MCF what difference with jaros?Thanks

[jamathi]

Thanks for the answer mr jan, i will test this several levels, right now i test that 2 level 16 and 40 mm but you say useless for you the results are insignificant not precise enough? I look in a post you worked with a flowbench MCF what difference with jaros?Thanks

With the MCF you measure the total flow in duct or ducts.
After many years of using flow benches I think they are most useful for developing exhaust ducts.
I can not see the usefulness of a Jaros bench....

[Greg85]

With the MCF you measure the total flow in duct or ducts.
After many years of using flow benches I think they are most useful for developing exhaust ducts.
I can not see the usefulness of a Jaros bench....

Thank you mr jan for your informations

[philou]

Jaros seems interesting for the symmetry of the flows of the transfers.

But maybe it does not matter?

[adegnes]

The bellmouth startup reed.

331992331993

Just a proof of concept.
I actually made this a couple of years ago as a cure for hard starting with late intake close timing. Soon after I realized my problem was a massive case leak, and never tried it.

[breezy]

The bellmouth startup reed.

331992331993

Just a proof of concept.
I actually made this a couple of years ago as a cure for hard starting with late intake close timing. Soon after I realized my problem was a massive case leak, and never tried it.

a bit more sophisticated than using your hand... nice:clap:

[TZ350]

The bellmouth startup reed. Just a proof of concept.

This is very interesting, looking forward to hearing about the results, could be good...... :yes:

[F5 Dave]

Can you get a VForce model?

[Frits Overmars]

Can you get a VForce model?Anything is possible but what good would a VForce reed do? Once the engine is running on the pipe, the reed is removed anyway.

[adegnes]

Anything is possible but what good would a VForce reed do? Once the engine is running on the pipe, the reed is removed anyway.

Think he's joking Frits 😀

[breezy]

Anything is possible but what good would a VForce reed do? Once the engine is running on the pipe, the reed is removed anyway.

Frits the term "running on the pipe", at what point can you deem this is happening?:scratch:

[husaberg]

Frits the term "running on the pipe", at what point can you deem this is happening?:scratch:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgI8oOmsS5E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhkZetCyaNs


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXE3Jc0wihk

[breezy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgI8oOmsS5E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhkZetCyaNs

oh of course...:bleh: you cant explain it with words either... thats why i asked Frits.:laugh:

[husaberg]

oh of course...:bleh: you cant explain it with words either... thats why i asked Frits.:laugh:

you don't really need words though......... who is this frits character:lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmgckkPnKlg
if Frits was here he would say something like its when all the results of the volumes and the wave actions from lengths and durations that result from either complex math or painstaking trail and error or both finally start to work in unison to produce a pitch perfect HARMONY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLUex1BssgY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEx43pHfZ7k

[adegnes]

About Ryger.
Let's assume it works.
Is the linear conrod thing and no premix really necessary, or is it just there to achieve the low emissions part of the story?
Could an extremely low volume crankcase with a ryger-style cylinder work too?

[breezy]

you don't really need words though......... who is this frits character:lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmgckkPnKlg
if Frits was here he would say something like its when all the results of the volumes and the wave actions from lengths and durations that result from either complex math or painstaking trail and error or both finally start to work in unison to produce a pitch perfect HARMONY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLUex1BssgY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEx43pHfZ7k

thanks mate.... let us know what size you are ill send one of these for your christmas present:lol:332003:banana::woohoo::laugh::bleh:

[husaberg]

thanks mate.... let us know what size you are ill send one of these for your christmas present:lol:332003:banana::woohoo::laugh::bleh:

lions aye best players from 4 countries (5 if you count the ex pat kiwis)and coached by a kiwi.........with only 70 million more people, one extra player for a game, shit northern hemisphere ref and you are crowing about winning one out of three games:killingme and how many of our provincial sides beat them as well.........

[ken seeber]

Good one(s) Hooser, but have a look/listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKVplvWqXWI

Just thought I'd throw a bit of culture in..:(

[WilDun]

Good one(s) Hooser, but have a look/listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKVplvWqXWI

Just thought I'd throw a bit of culture in..:(

Good one! I listened to it and couldn't find anyone to share it with so I showed it to my wife but she just didn't understand! - usually a smart lady, but how could anyone have missed something like that? :rolleyes:

[breezy]

Good one(s) Hooser, but have a look/listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKVplvWqXWI

Just thought I'd throw a bit of culture in..:(

wow ... how did you come across that Ken..... brilliant:niceone:

[breezy]

lions aye best players from 4 countries (5 if you count the ex pat kiwis)and coached by a kiwi.........with only 70 million more people, one extra player for a game, shit northern hemisphere ref and you are crowing about winning one out of three games:killingme and how many of our provincial sides beat them as well.........

just warming up against the local teams..:msn-wink: no point showing your best game too early:laugh:... it take it you dont want the shirt then.... probably aswell they only do real mens sizes:devil2::bleh::bleh: not sure you could carry it off:no:..... anyway if you dont remove your personal comments and talk to me nice im never gonna post again... ...:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[SwePatrick]

A question.

Can a pipe get too hot (average heat on whole length)?

I ran a couple of pulls today in my 211cc methanol engine.
First three pulls were above 73hp(engine), one pull peaked above 74hp.
Then suddenly, i didn´t feel it but fourth was suddenly 63hp

And then when a shut down the bike after two more pulls, the silencer was actually on fire on the inside.
Endbaffle on pipe was actually blue after this.
The engine started to get black in the crankcase.

My spontaneus reaction to this is that it has actually got to hot and the fresh gasmixture in the header actually went on fire then pushed into cylinder from pipe.
I never measured pipeheat in theese pulls sadly enough.
But looking at the pipe is that(mild steele) has gotten grey all the way past the belly and the endbaffle is blue(estimate ~290-305 degree celsius)

I figure this was the powerloss.
I took engine apart today as i first suspected something really wrong, couldn´t find anything but soot(spelling,, carbon?) in the crankcase.
Compression was still perfect, 220psi

Rgds.
Patrick

[husaberg]

just warming up against the local teams..:msn-wink: no point showing your best game too early:laugh:... it take it you dont want the shirt then.... probably aswell they only do real mens sizes:devil2::bleh::bleh: not sure you could carry it off:no:..... anyway if you dont remove your personal comments and talk to me nice im never gonna post again... ...:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

No, please send the shirt, it looks to be a quality product made here in NZ:lol:
http://www.canterburyofnz.com/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI3cPzv7Cv1QIVWAYqCh3rAALrEAAYASA AEgLkafD_BwE

[oldjohnno]

Good one(s) Hooser, but have a look/listen to this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKVplvWqXWI

Just thought I'd throw a bit of culture in..:(

A little more culture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2fXTf2hcoA

[WilDun]

A little more culture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2fXTf2hcoA

Gees Ken where do you find them? - best one yet! :laugh: :2thumbsup

[Grumph]

A question.

Can a pipe get too hot (average heat on whole length)?

I ran a couple of pulls today in my 211cc methanol engine.
First three pulls were above 73hp(engine), one pull peaked above 74hp.
Then suddenly, i didn´t feel it but fourth was suddenly 63hp

And then when a shut down the bike after two more pulls, the silencer was actually on fire on the inside.
Endbaffle on pipe was actually blue after this.
The engine started to get black in the crankcase.

Rgds.
Patrick

Not uncommon on Methanol burners to have a silencer fire. Initially anyway, it's the coolest part of the pipe and anything coming through unburned is going to collect/condense there. Then when it's hot enough, it'll catch fire. I'd guess you're running very rich - leaning down is a delicate process on Methanol.
FWIW, I stopped using packed mufflers on the 4T speedway engines and went to all metal bypass type mufflers to avoid the fires...

[ken seeber]

While the first one was just so obviously a 125 single with disc valve induction, 42 mm carb, 6 speed, water cooled, 54 kg rider and with just a hint of HCCI, the one below is one is a bit different. Just another friggin 4 stroke :weep:, but neat nonetheless:

https://www.facebook.com/7Tune/videos/640131842690922/

No more Willy.

[Frits Overmars]

if Frits was here he would say something like its when all the results of the volumes and the wave actions from lengths and durations that result from either complex math or painstaking trail and error or both finally start to work in unison to produce a pitch perfect HARMONY.I'm back. And instead of your 42 words I only need 9 letters: resonance. I like your audio-explanation though :niceone:.
Breezy, the term "running on the pipe" is just another expression for 'running in the powerband'.
Allow me to conclude this with some four-stroke beat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHzK3Xe7Yw

[husaberg]

I'm back. And instead of your 42 words I only need 9 letters: resonance. I like your audio-explanation though :niceone:.
Breezy, the term "running on the pipe" is just another expression for 'running in the powerband'.
Allow me to conclude this with some four-stroke beat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHzK3Xe7Yw

I was going for something more punny......
more output than economy of words
I do like Renaissance fair idea though
http://www.oneclickchicks.com/th/4/2/0/5/8/1818401.jpg
Reminds me of the Koing

[WilDun]

While the first one was just so obviously a 125 single with disc valve induction, 42 mm carb, 6 speed, water cooled, 54 kg rider and with just a hint of HCCI, the one below is one is a bit different. Just another friggin 4 stroke :weep:, but neat nonetheless:

https://www.facebook.com/7Tune/videos/640131842690922/

No more Willy.

Honda 125/5 maybe?, - Frits's one? well.... a Deutz at full revs? Prize for the biggest laugh however, goes to the Trombone Vespa!!!

Sorry TZ, we're corrupting your thread.

[Pursang]

I think we need to hear a 2 Stroke Tractor?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02i02czjcfs

And who actually invented the Expansion Chamber Exhaust?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Lanz_Bulldog_D_8506%2C_Bj._1939%2C_35_PS_-_15.07.2006.jpg/800px-Lanz_Bulldog_D_8506%2C_Bj._1939%2C_35_PS_-_15.07.2006.jpg

Cheers, Daryl

[Tim Ey]

For the rpm of a Bulldog, the mounted pipe is only 4-7 meters too short...

[Haufen]

Two-stroke song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=echeYDYFhlY)

[breezy]

Breezy, the term "running on the pipe" is just another expression for 'running in the powerband'.


Frits, thank you very much. i had hoped it meant as soon as the engine fired up..never mind...:niceone:

[Jannem]

Another 2-stroke tractor.😊
https://youtu.be/RoiWpJLokEc

[WilDun]

I think we need to hear a 2 Stroke Tractor?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02i02czjcfs

And who actually invented the Expansion Chamber Exhaust?

Cheers, Daryl

I meant the Lanz Bulldog but confused it with the Deutz.

This stuff is very interesting indeed, but the "oddball" thread was more or less intended to catch the overflow from this thread so ESE could concentrate on actual engine modification projects etc. but whether or not TZ thinks that, I dunno - he may think differently! :)

[Grumph]

And who actually invented the Expansion Chamber Exhaust?

Cheers, Daryl

Every Lanz I've seen here in NZ - and there are a few brought out for parades etc - has a plain pipe with a straight through silencer.
If the mag is in good nick, the party trick is to run very slowly at idle - and blow smoke rings.

There was a write up in Classic Bike or Classic Racer, late 80's, of a guy who rode worked Villiers 125's in the IOM - 1950's. To silence one of them for a last minute running in session on the island, he tacked on an old fire extinguisher body - double taper....
Apparently it went so well he actually thought he was in with a chance of a place...Then he took it off for the race.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[peewee]

hey guys I got the swingarm finished and installed. rear brakes are mounted and chain alignment was on the money. just have to put on the body panels and I can test ride it next weekend. like haufen suggested I made 11mm holes on each end for a rosett plug weld. also im going to remove the complete front brake assembly and get rid of some unecesary weight

[husaberg]

I think we need to hear a 2 Stroke Tractor?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Lanz_Bulldog_D_8506%2C_Bj._1939%2C_35_PS_-_15.07.2006.jpg/800px-Lanz_Bulldog_D_8506%2C_Bj._1939%2C_35_PS_-_15.07.2006.jpg

Cheers, Daryl


Every Lanz I've seen here in NZ - and there are a few brought out for parades etc - has a plain pipe with a straight through silencer.
If the mag is in good nick, the party trick is to run very slowly at idle - and blow smoke rings.


One of the more intersting things with the bulldogs is how they can be started with special 12g shotgun cartridge.
They crank start using the steering wheel on the flywheel as well.
They are pretty common over here, two within 20kms, probably more.

[SwePatrick]

Not uncommon on Methanol burners to have a silencer fire. Initially anyway, it's the coolest part of the pipe and anything coming through unburned is going to collect/condense there. Then when it's hot enough, it'll catch fire. I'd guess you're running very rich - leaning down is a delicate process on Methanol.
FWIW, I stopped using packed mufflers on the 4T speedway engines and went to all metal bypass type mufflers to avoid the fires...

I can´t say i am running it rich, but i still need more experiance to state that.
I got 'perfect' colours on spark plug after a ~74hp pull.
But! now when you are saying it, i DO have problems with carb, maybe it floods and get rich condition all of a sudden in the middle of one of the last pulls.
I need to study on that, engine is apart for checkup and i am impressed.
Almost no wear at all.
Piston skirts weared like one heat in motocross and the wristpin has a little bit of wear(ordered a new one with KBK bearing)

I find this amazing cause it actually is a KX250 engine that i only has downstroked.
No lighter piston etc etc etc.
And i have revved it ~14000 several times.
~40 runs on 1/8 mile, over 100 dynopulls, and a couple of hours of cruising and testing.

Methanol must be a twostrokers best friend =)

[adegnes]

Ngk B-E10.5

http://www.maxiscoot.com/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/273fe73c516cc2b029d5af29aaf1e15a/l/s/lsazkngkbe105_lsazkngkbe105_01.jpg

Any experience with this one?
Step up from the BRxEG?
It has a slanted straight ground strap, and a fine center electrode(not made of fancy metal tho)

Yeah Wobbly, I know. R7376 or go home... :clap:

[dark art]

Ngk B-E10.5

I believe those are non-resistor plugs. About the performance, it seems a pretty standard spark plug, except the 10.5 range.

[adegnes]

I believe those are non-resistor plugs. About the performance, it seems a pretty standard spark plug, except the 10.5 range.

Maybe that's what's "racing" about them, no resistor and half a step colder :laugh:

I'll have to dig a bit more.

[dark art]

Maybe that's what's "racing" about them, no resistor and half a step colder :laugh:


No resistor means no use with digital electronics, so not a big help with modern programable CDIs. Maybe for vintage and classic racing the 10.5 temp range is good choice for cheap plugs or for the ones who use analog igniton systems (and eventually want to mess up the adversaries who use digital :laugh: ).

[dtenney]

I know there has been a discussion about the effect of cooling water temp on HP. Assuming one could separate the cylinder cooling circuit from the head cooling circuit; would it make sense to run the cylinder as cool as possible while running the head as hot as possible. We are running methanol in our motors.

[lodgernz]

Yeah Wobbly, I know. R7376 or go home... :clap:

Cheapest R7376 from Japan here:
http://jdm-planet.com/product/ngk-r7376-9-r73769-7763-racing-spark-plugs-x-1/

They take ages to arrive and the company never responds to emails asking what's happening, but mine did arrive OK in the end.
You take your chances...

[wobbly]

With Mehanol ( assuming you are doing it correctly and running a ton of com with normal ignition ) the latent heat of the fuel means water temp
has way less effect.
As far as the head s concerned there are two conflicting needs.
First is to cool the squishband, and thus the boundary layer and thus the piston edge.
Second is the bowl should be hot - as with any temp differential the hot will travel to the cool and in this case a cold bowl is pulling out combustion heat
that should be expanding the gas and making power.
You can ceramic coat the bowl only, and the piston non squish area.
Or polish the bowl and piston to reflect the radiated heat.
Keeping the squish cold, and ceramic coating the bowl works well.
But as I said, a Meth motor is a different animal as running it WAY rich looses no power at all.

[TZ350]

I meant the Lanz Bulldog but confused it with the Deutz. This stuff is very interesting indeed, but the "oddball" thread was more or less intended to catch the overflow from this thread so ESE could concentrate on actual engine modification projects etc. but whether or not TZ thinks that, I dunno - he may think differently! :)

332040

Hi Will I agree with you, the "oddball" dinner party is a great place to go if one want's to get really absorbed in talking about other people's oddball engines.

And this little get together is a great place for discussing engine modifications, picking up tuning tips and talking about one's own projects and ideas and like all good dinner parties there is often a bit of crossover and kept interesting with off topic comments about things like the 2T Lans tractor.

So, a little off topic. But.....

332042

Can this girl ride? and would the fast guys get their but kicked???

332041

Probably!!!

332043

And going around the outside. These guy's got totally owned by the Princess. As did most of the field.

[Nath88]

Since it's a bit quiet in here (what's a girl anyway???), made some real life progress with the ion sensing circuit. Bench test on the bike just kicking the motor over.
332051
I have the sensing circuit installed between the coil and the frame/engine. There's a resistor across the spark plug gap to simulate the current flow through the ionised gas that will be there after combustion.
Yellow line shows the capacitor charging on each spark, then draining out across the spark plug gap/resistor, its regulated at 150 volts, just kicking the motor over only gets to about 100 volts.
Blue line shows the current flowing through the gap/resistor (inverted). It peaks at around 150 microamps, real ion current is about 30 microamps. There are some spikes from the ignition coil after each spark and a fair bit of ongoing noise in the signal that will need to be filtered out.

Looks promising at this stage, a bit more bench testing to refine the circuit, then will do some tests on the running bike.

[Pursang]

No resistor means no use with digital electronics, so not a big help with modern programable CDIs. Maybe for vintage and classic racing the 10.5 temp range is good choice for cheap plugs or for the ones who use analog igniton systems (and eventually want to mess up the adversaries who use digital :laugh: ).

My (admittedly basic) understanding is is use Resistor Plug OR Resistor Cap but NOT both.

Cheers, Daryl.

[wobbly]

Any digital CDI system needs the RFI filtering action of a resistor plug AND cap or the noise can easily affect the flashed memory.
You can use good spiral wound core leads ( Magnecore ) with a non resistor cap, and i do this when using doubled up CDI as the cap restive elements are not that reliable.

[OopsClunkThud]

Back to the Ryger, and the lower primary pumping efficiency.

What if you made the separator plate also move (like a donut shaped piston under the normal piston)? The stroke of this could be very short and generally move opposite the motion of the piston (with some phase shift if it helps). This could be sized to bring the primary pumping volume back up to equal the displacement. It could also balance the motion of the piston.

[jonny quest]

Curious if anyone has tried staggered transfer openings for angled case reed inlets like on a CR125.

The inlet points to the right, if the left side transfers were to open slightly earlier... it may promote better cylinder filling.

[F5 Dave]

If there was no gas mixture in that area and the flow entirely started from the reed area then that would be worth trying as well as super long transfer timing.

[wobbly]

A much better ( and tested ) solution is to use staggered backup stiffeners.
The carb is angled and offset vertically also.
But it responds like a KZ by having flow biased to the upper 1/2 of the cage.
By having a much stiffer single reed on the bottom with a thicker backup.
The top petals needs to be softer, and have the backups staggered in length left to right with a rev plate as well to redirect the biased carb flow back to being symmetric
across the 3 curtain areas.
Only way to do it is a pitot tube on a flow bench - takes forever but a SKUSA 125 takes off when its done right..

[Flettner]

Back to the Ryger, and the lower primary pumping efficiency.

What if you made the separator plate also move (like a donut shaped piston under the normal piston)? The stroke of this could be very short and generally move opposite the motion of the piston (with some phase shift if it helps). This could be sized to bring the primary pumping volume back up to equal the displacement. It could also balance the motion of the piston.

Ok I'll bite, normally it would constitute supercharging but if you are only raising the displacement back out to the cylinder capacity then I guess that would be acceptable.

[breezy]

Back to the Ryger, and the lower primary pumping efficiency.

What if you made the separator plate also move (like a donut shaped piston under the normal piston)? The stroke of this could be very short and generally move opposite the motion of the piston (with some phase shift if it helps). This could be sized to bring the primary pumping volume back up to equal the displacement. It could also balance the motion of the piston.

well if a few people hadnt waded into lucf.... we may have been able to understand were he and the ryger system was coming from .. sadly, its all guess work me old mate....:facepalm:

[F5 Dave]

Ahh rubbish! You'd be more likely to have obtained information in a request to the Chinese government.

He was all Emperor and no new clothes.

[breezy]

Breezy, the term "running on the pipe" is just another expression for 'running in the powerband'.


Frits, thank you very much. i had hoped it meant as soon as the engine fired up..never mind...:niceone:

well ... having had a while to ponder this ..... maybe if the tuning were to be set up for the "on the pipe" to happen at 1000 rpm to let it control the running of the engine... if you could start the engine with a starter system that rotated the engine at 1500 rpm .. pumping would no longer be needed?.....and if at this point the exhaust was no longer needed to produce power/ rpm... do we need a crankcase? and be able to feed the cylinder directly from the inlet?:sherlock:

[breezy]

Ahh rubbish! You'd be more likely to have obtained information in a request to the Chinese government.

He was all Emperor and no new clothes.

come on... haven’t had a musical interlude for a while... no more potential care workers though please:no:

[Norman]

well if a few people hadnt waded into lucf.... we may have been able to understand were he and the ryger system was coming from .. sadly, its all guess work me old mate....:facepalm:

If you look into Pit-Lane and the Ryger section, Luc has today written another "white paper" article about Ryger. Not yet a full theoretical explanation to the power, but still intersting. As I understand, the next article will be about how they explain the massive power claims.

[peewee]

swingarm worked great and engine runs great at full tilt but something seems to still be floading the crankcase at small throttle opening. I wonder if the pump is over powering the float valve and pushing fuel up the needle bore or maybe I just need a different needle. on the pulse pumps wouldn't the highest fuel pressure be when the slide is mostly shut ?

[2T Institute]

If you look into Pit-Lane and the Ryger section, Luc has today written another "white paper" article about Ryger. Not yet a full theoretical explanation to the power, but still intersting. As I understand, the next article will be about how they explain the massive power claims.
Whats more interesting is this is the second European summer race season the ryger could have entered a ICC/superkart race meeting............but alas nobody seems to be able/willing/confident enough to do that.

[sidecar bob]

Whats more interesting is this is the second European summer race season the ryger could have entered a ICC/superkart race meeting............but alas nobody seems to be able/willing/confident enough to do that.

Apparently the fuckers are making 200 units per month. http://rygerengine.com/ryger-kart-engine/ Whatever can be the problem with well over 1000 currently in service according to my sources.

[Lightbulb]

The info might be as reliable as the 30k claim when it was infact only 28100 at a peak one time. Monumentally short of 30k.

[Carel H]

Apparently the fuckers are making 200 units per month. http://rygerengine.com/ryger-kart-engine/ Whatever can be the problem with well over 1000 currently in service according to my sources.

If you follow the link, there are 2 preferred dealers for the engines. In spite of the "highly innovative properties" they don't mention the engine. If you try to buy the engine another "Ryger" firm pops up. Housed in a very big house on the other side of the country. OK, Holland is such a small country, that there is no room for another side, but still.

So there are hundreds of owners, racing against each other in complete secrecy, or this is an hyped collectors item, with magical properties.

[JanBros]

well ... having had a while to ponder this ..... maybe if the tuning were to be set up for the "on the pipe" to happen at 1000 rpm to let it control the running of the engine... if you could start the engine with a starter system that rotated the engine at 1500 rpm .. pumping would no longer be needed?.....and if at this point the exhaust was no longer needed to produce power/ rpm... do we need a crankcase? and be able to feed the cylinder directly from the inlet?:sherlock:

before you can be "on the pipe", you need combustion in the cylinder to make the pipe work. so when trying to start there will be no combustion unless you find a way to force mixture in the cylinder.

[Muciek]

Just click arrow at right side for more pictures. Cnc made cylinder and other nice bits of engine .

https://www.facebook.com/SchwarzMopedTuning/photos/a.137977363225006.1073741830.135560476800028/468352140187525/?type=3&theater

[F5 Dave]

They look past their best but turn it up an enjoy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D37POA11KY

[sidecar bob]

If you follow the link, there are 2 preferred dealers for the engines. In spite of the "highly innovative properties" they don't mention the engine. If you try to buy the engine another "Ryger" firm pops up. Housed in a very big house on the other side of the country. OK, Holland is such a small country, that there is no room for another side, but still.

So there are hundreds of owners, racing against each other in complete secrecy, or this is an hyped collectors item, with magical properties.

Yeah, so pretty much as suspected, it's a whole pile of crap then?

[jasonu]

The info might be as reliable as the 30k claim when it was infact only 28100 at a peak one time. Monumentally short of 30k.

and likely monumentally short of 80hp as well.

[sidecar bob]

According to my source Kroon oil make lubricants specifically for Ryger.
Well there's a dissapointment. https://www.kroon-oil.com/en/search/#!/query:Ryger/

[adegnes]

I just started the Spx with no intake valve.
No need for the bellmouth reed, it just started right up. Idled fine too, and I could rev it.
Mind blown.
Sadly had to kill it immediately after confirming that it would run to not wake up the kids.
Now this is interesting!

Video with proof rendering as we speak.

[TZ350]

I just started the Spx with no intake valve. No need for the bellmouth reed, it just started right up. Idled fine too, and I could rev it. Mind blown.

Good work Adegnes, this is impressive and extremely interesting, I am looking forward to the video and a report on its ride ability. If its a practical proposition we will be trying one too.

[oldjohnno]

...So there are hundreds of owners, racing against each other in complete secrecy...

I like the idea of a secret society holding clandestine race meetings on tracks built in disused underground salt mines... to maintain secrecy, all discussions about these meetings take place under the protection of the Cone of Silence...

[lodgernz]

They look past their best but turn it up an enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2D37POA11KY


They were past their best as soon as Layne died.

[F5 Dave]

I think they got better. They just look old.

[adegnes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhmNn4p7o4A

[Lightbulb]

Anything different apart from removing the rotary valve? Look forward to further testing and video's. Thanks for sharing.

[adegnes]

Anything different apart from removing the rotary valve? Look forward to further testing and video's. Thanks for sharing.

Nothing different. I literally just assembled it without the valve.

[Lightbulb]

Nothing different. I literally just assembled it without the valve.

I like your video, it was like you assembled the engine late at night and forgot to put the rotary valve in. Thanks for the reply.

[breezy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NhmNn4p7o4A

so... with no crankcase compression.. it starts? or am i reading this wrong.. or is it the carb slide which now controls closing off the crankcase to some extent? 24/7...will it perform under load?

[breezy]

before you can be "on the pipe", you need combustion in the cylinder to make the pipe work. so when trying to start there will be no combustion unless you find a way to force mixture in the cylinder.

JanBros, thanks for reply...have you seen Agnes video... how is this possible? an excess of fuel already in the transfers? should he have purged the engine prior to trying to start? is the pull on the pipe sufficient to draw fuel up the transfers to start the engine... interesting.

[Juho_]

@adegnes - This is very interesting! I would have never believed neither, it would even start without the rotary valve.
Maybe I should try anyways a few test runs without reeds (minarelli am6 engine), just to keep it as simple as possible just because I'm suspecting the reed valve is causing a bottle neck on the engine currently.. after I've fixed the clutch and done engine case modifications.

What uncorrected compression ratio you are currently using?
The nitromethane(?) test caught my interest, and had thought there would be far better gains on power.
Since atleast on E85 fuel I've had some great gains on power... methanol would be interesting to try out, but costs way too much (add the fuel consumation, and it'll be close to four times more expensive than on E85).
---------
I have been thinking about the minarelli am6 engine case design.. the reed valve is directed to crankshaft, and the reed duct (not sure if right word for this..) is quite small. Compared to Derbi engines (EBS050 and D50B0).
I've never tried to port it AND test what happens to power curve. Only done it the same time, when I've ported the cylinder more and have had the cases seperated.

Until now. I hadn't done anything else for the cases, but ported the transfer duct entries. Because of clutch problems, I had to disassemble the engine and thought why not try and see what happens if I re-direct the reed duct and make it a bit larger (going to use CR80 reed valve next time).
No other modifications, so it should be very clear what it causes.
I do have a feeling it won't have any effect on power, when it's running on the pipe - but on lower revs probably less power because the crankcase volume increases.

[adegnes]

I like your video, it was like you assembled the engine late at night and forgot to put the rotary valve in. Thanks for the reply.

Thanks!


so... with no crankcase compression.. it starts? or am i reading this wrong.. or is it the carb slide which now controls closing off the crankcase to some extent?

Yep, tho there might be some compression caused by, as you say, the carb slide restricting flow.
First I was expecting it to not start at all, when it did I was expecting it to die immediately when I touched the throttle.
Well as you saw it didn't.
If further testing show that this actually works, and makes the same or even more power than with a valve, I'm not looking back.

I have the engine modeled in engmod and can post dimensions, volumes etc.

[adegnes]

JanBros, thanks for reply...have you seen Agnes video... how is this possible? an excess of fuel already in the transfers? should he have purged the engine prior to trying to start? is the pull on the pipe sufficient to draw fuel up the transfers to start the engine... interesting.

Maybe the upside down cylinder works to my advantage?
It was actually purged before I tried starting it.


@adegnes - This is very interesting!


indeed!



What uncorrected compression ratio you are currently using?
The nitromethane(?) test caught my interest, and had thought there would be far better gains on power.
Since atleast on E85 fuel I've had some great gains on power... methanol would be interesting to try out, but costs way too much (add the fuel consumation, and it'll be close to four times more expensive than on E85).


I'll have check my notes, but I think it is about 1:1,3.
I think there's far more to be had from the nitromethanol, remember all I've done so far is just a major upjet. Compression, ignition timing, pipe design etc. is unaltered.

[Flettner]

Ken, you looking at this?

[ken seeber]

Ken, you looking at this?

Fletto, absolutely. Well done Alex.

Aways wondered if this one actually ran or even started. (was a simple Ozzie mod to make a Beeza Bantam to put out more than 3 hp)

332112332113

Funny when one sees a reed valved 125 kart engine not even start/run properly when a reed tip has broken off. Maybe the starting was due to being cranked with an electric starter, whereas that muscly Alex was probably spinning his at well over 2k rpm at least. (Probably could have done more, but didn’t want to wake all his kiddies:yes:).

Maybe for KZ racing one could have a reed valve made with some material that would fail (eg a condom, preferably new ) that would pass thru the engine with no damage and then be 24/7 from then on, gaining its 5 hp.

So many things to try. 1 hour to go til the Moto GP starts, been a bit starved of late.

[TZ350]

A RV 2T running with no RV, that is truly epic --- :drinknsin--- very much looking forward to hearing if it's ridable.

[breezy]

[QUOTE=ken seeber;1131058170]Fletto, absolutely. Well done Alex.

Always wondered if this one actually ran or even started. (was a simple Ozzie mod to make a Beeza Bantam to put out more than 3 hp].... things have moved on Ken... bsa bantam 125 aircooled:msn-wink:332117

[oldjohnno]

I can imagine a reed valved engine making more power without the obstruction of the reed in place - but does a rotary valved engine benefit in the same way? A rotary valve, when open, gives no more resistance to flow than if there was no valve at all... and if the longer duration does give a power increase wouldn't this have shown up in the timing tests that so many have done?

A long time ago, when most two strokes were piston ported, I experimented with intake timing and found that too much intake duration helped the top end but also killed the bottom. At low RPMs they'd load up easily from double or triple carburation and lost a lot of torque. On a race bike I guess this isn't a problem if it can be kept on the pipe. The standoff was quite noticeable in Alex's video; it'll be interesting to see where in the rev range it clears up. I can't wait to see the dyno results.

[adegnes]

Fletto, absolutely. Well done Alex.



Thanks!



Funny when one sees a reed valved 125 kart engine not even start/run properly when a reed tip has broken off. Maybe the starting was due to being cranked with an electric starter, whereas that muscly Alex was probably spinning his at well over 2k rpm at least. (Probably could have done more, but didn’t want to wake all his kiddies:yes:).


:laugh::laugh::laugh:



A RV 2T running with no RV, that is truly epic --- :drinknsin--- very much looking forward to hearing if it's ridable.
Haven't been this excited for a long time!
As long as it can rev into the powerband with no load this should work.


I can imagine a reed valved engine making more power without the obstruction of the reed in place - but does a rotary valved engine benefit in the same way? A rotary valve, when open, gives no more resistance to flow than if there was no valve at all... and if the longer duration does give a power increase wouldn't this have shown up in the timing tests that so many have done?

A long time ago, when most two strokes were piston ported, I experimented with intake timing and found that too much intake duration helped the top end but also killed the bottom. At low RPMs they'd load up easily from double or triple carburation and lost a lot of torque. On a race bike I guess this isn't a problem if it can be kept on the pipe. The standoff was quite noticeable in Alex's video; it'll be interesting to see where in the rev range it clears up. I can't wait to see the dyno results.

Good point!
With my setup what's going on below or low in the powerband isn't too important.
Guess it boils down to if ever increasing intake duration when rpm rises beyond peak power is beneficial or not.
If you had a "variable with rpm" rotary valve, how would you set it up beyond peak?

[jfn2]

In the video it looked like some of that blue mixture in the squirt bottle was dripping into the brown mixture in the glass. Good video.

[adegnes]

In the video it looked like some of that blue mixture in the squirt bottle was dripping into the brown mixture in the glass. Good video.

Haha, Thanks!
The blue stuff is Brunox(like WD40). It's good at wicking into places, and also out of squirt bottles.

[Frits Overmars]

Haven't been this excited for a long time!Two-strokes can do that to you :D.

[speedboy]

A RV 2T running with no RV, that is truly epic --- :drinknsin--- very much looking forward to hearing if it's ridable.

Why Epic?

A lot of people are riding with broken or missing reed petal :msn-wink:
-> Strange idle, weaker performance

[F5 Dave]

My H100 broke a steel reed. Started as easy as the pie I'm currently eating. Actually it's more a corrnish.

Did notice a stutter up top that sent me searching. But that's a small section of a 4 petal reed. Not a gapping hole.

Having experienced load up on a piston port bike which on race start, bogged unrecoverably until the clutch basket was replaced I'd expect a similar load up if thrown too much load quickly. Auto clutch no idea how they behave.

I thought you had no chance of starting that. Until it burbled time before.

I would have lost some money there.

Makes me wonder about the 256 that would either start or tire you out pushing.

[Flettner]

Now I guess if the engine was TPI, this over rich situation wouldn't happen.
I'm sure off the pipe performance must be compromised?

[jasonu]

My H100 broke a steel reed. Started as easy as the pie I'm currently eating. Actually it's more a corrnish.

Did notice a stutter up top that sent me searching. But that's a small section of a 4 petal reed. Not a gapping hole.

Having experienced load up on a piston port bike which on race start, bogged unrecoverably until the clutch basket was replaced I'd expect a similar load up if thrown too much load quickly. Auto clutch no idea how they behave.

I thought you had no chance of starting that. Until it burbled time before.

I would have lost some money there.

Makes me wonder about the 256 that would either start or tire you out pushing.

https://www.google.com/search?q=what+you+talkin+bout+willis+meme&tbm=isch&imgil=nXbKcEoUcuZu9M%253A%253B7oZSKaSSzPnVxM%253Bh ttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.supergrove.com%25252Fw hat-you-talkin-bout%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=nXbKcEoUcuZu9M%253A%252C7oZSKaSSzPnVxM%252C_&usg=__ih61OAK90oUMaWZl6ADAXLLoce8%3D&biw=1024&bih=691&ved=0ahUKEwi_zZGZncTVAhUT62MKHT27AyEQyjcIQQ&ei=z-SHWf-pM5PWjwO99o6IAg#imgrc=nXbKcEoUcuZu9M:

[jonny quest]

What's the story about Cagiva running reeds that didn't clise all the way? To hurt explosive power? Was that on EFI or carb?

[Frits Overmars]

What's the story about Cagiva running reeds that didn't clise all the way? To hurt explosive power? Was that on EFI or carb?Here is the story Jonny:
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner/page1753?p=1131051402#post1131051402
And here's a better one I initially missed (thanks Husaberg):
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/155906-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner/page427?p=1130474766#post1130474766

If you know, or can guess, on which site to search, this works fairly well in Google: [word you are searching for] site: [site name]

Here is what I entered in Google Search in order to retrieve the post you were asking about:

Cagiva site: https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner

Google still came up with 133 hits that I had to plough through, but hey, what's a little effort between friends? :msn-wink:

[husaberg]

Here is the story Jonny:
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1131051402#post1131051402

If you know, or can guess, on which site to search, this works fairly well in Google: [word you are searching for] site: [site name]

Here is what I entered in Google Search in order to retrieve the post you were asking about:

Cagiva site: https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner

Google still came up with 133 hits that I had to plough through, but hey, what's a little effort between friends? :msn-wink:

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1131051402#post1131051402

This is an MX bike. It's rotary. And it says Honda. Categorical statements are always risky...
331416

Reeds need a pressure differential before they will open, and the bulk of that differential is provided by the suction effect of the exhaust system.
When you close the throttle, combustion stops, all pipe effects stop, and the reeds stay almost closed. When you open the throttle again, exiting a corner, nothing happens because there is not enough igniteable mixture in the cylinder. So you open the throttle a bit further, and a bit further still, and at some time the cylinder contents are igniteable again. So combustion starts, the pipe chimes in and it's two-stroke business as usual. But now your throttle is wide open and the next thing you'll experience is a highside.
Cagiva put spacers under the reeds in order to make sure that they never completely closed. It cost power but it helped lap times and saved bikes and riders.
The spacers killed the 'pop' that Kevin Cameron mentioned, so carburation became less than responsive, which inspired Cagiva to experiment with fuel injection.
The better explaination is here
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/155906-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130474766#post1130474766

Re the articles by Kevin Cameron which, by and large, are excellent reading:
Cameron mentions large area reeds needing low stiffness which allows them to open almost as soon as the piston rises. But the opening of the reeds has nothing to do with piston motion; the reeds are opened by a pressure differential and that can occur even while the piston is on its way down (imagine pipe suction at really low revs).

Guillotine exhaust power valves in the Yamaha 250 cc V-twin caused a peculiar problem: oil collected in the sheath for the valve of the down-sloping cylinder, acting as a hydraulic block on the valve. We drilled a small leak hole to get rid of the problem.

True, true.Wrong, wrong. The 'plug' of mixture in the intake duct strongly resists being accelerated towards the crankcase; the crankcase pressure has dropped quite a bit (slowing down the transfer flow in the process) before the intake flow starts attributing something useful to the crankcase contents. And the same goes for rotary inlet engines; they too need large crankcase volumes to make real power.
Wob, the pipe does suck like hell on the cylinder and hence on the crankcase. It just doesn't show at the reeds until a lot later because of, like you say, petal stiffness and column inertia.
By the way; the Aprilia RSW's crankcase volume at TDC (that means including the transfer ducts) is about 650 cc; the RSA's volume is about 675 cc. But they open their rotary inlets when they want to; they're not at the mercy of any stubborn reeds.

Several riders of the Cagiva 500-4 works racers experienced a painful demonstration of this stubbornness:
When closing the throttle for a corner (a 500-4 will need that from time to time) engine power dropped. But when they reopened at the corner exit.... nothing happened. The reeds had to be opened by the suction of the exhaust pipe, but when there is no combustion, there is no suction. So the riders opened up a little more. And a little more. And more.... And then, at some point, there was once more sufficient combustible mixture in the cylinder to be ignited. The pipe suction returned from its coffee break and the whole two-stroke resonance cycle was reinstated - with the four carbs wide open. That hurt....
The problem was solved by inserting thin strips under the reeds, so they never really closed completely. It messed up the carburation and cost over 10 HP, but it improved both the lap times and the mileage you could put on a rider.
Later, because of those carburation problems, Cagiva was one of the first to switch from carbs to injection.

as you were.........15 seconds.........
I used Cagiva reed and user name Frits Overmars
i knew you had posted it here though

The Kb search function needs a few paremeters spec'd
try this
First start from the ESE page to search the thread.
Then hit advanced search
Then search single content
Then Make sure the bottom dot is in post rather than thread.
331652

You can also select the author whose post you wish to search for instance Wobbly, Frits etc
by searching under their user name or multiple usernames.
this narrows down the number of posts to go through dramatically.

or you can use Google with a few key words that you are looking for but include "ESE works Engine tuner" you need " " the so Google only searches those words with the ESE thread.

[adegnes]

Having experienced load up on a piston port bike which on race start, bogged unrecoverably until the clutch basket was replaced I'd expect a similar load up if thrown too much load quickly. Auto clutch no idea how they behave.


Mine is currently set up to start grabbing well into the powerband, hoping that'll work.



I thought you had no chance of starting that. Until it burbled time before.

I would have lost some money there.


Without that burble I would have given up after a few more pulls and tried the reed. We would never have known that it could start without it.



Now I guess if the engine was TPI, this over rich situation wouldn't happen.
I'm sure off the pipe performance must be compromised?

Luckily my fuel is pretty tolerant to rich running.
Too bad it's difficult to test off pipe performance with my current setup.

Really looking forward to seeing how it behaves on the roller!

[Lightbulb]

When do you plan on running the engine and seeing what happens and if it is ride-able?
Neil

[seattle smitty]

Alex, if you want to eliminate yet another component, add enough nitro and you very well might be able to turn off the ignition while the motor continues to run merrily along until the fuel runs out, LOL.


(More seriously, this auto-ignition possibility is why you should have some method of fuel cut-off if you are going to fool with nitro. Many an alky outboard racer, having "tipped the can" (added some percentage of nitro), has fired up his engine on the beach to warm it up before the race and experienced his engine whining along with the ignition switched off and the throttle closed (and we use full butterflys with no cut-outs, just so the engines WON'T idle).

[lohring]

We ran 40% nitro in this engine. It definitely stopped as soon as the plug burned off. The ground strap was a little hard on the piston on the way out the exhaust. On 15% nitro it ran fine.

Lohring Miller

332121

[Lightbulb]

Alex, if you want to eliminate yet another component, add enough nitro and you very well might be able to turn off the ignition while the motor continues to run merrily along until the fuel runs out, LOL.


(More seriously, this auto-ignition possibility is why you should have some method of fuel cut-off if you are going to fool with nitro. Many an alky outboard racer, having "tipped the can" (added some percentage of nitro), has fired up his engine on the beach to warm it up before the race and experienced his engine whining along with the ignition switched off and the throttle closed (and we use full butterflys with no cut-outs, just so the engines WON'T idle).

Smithy, if the spark plug has a higher than 50% platinum alloy electrode, it will act like a glow plug in a model engine when running Methanol. Nitro is not required . Being able to cut the fuel is essential if platinum pugs are being used that have a high level of alloy content. Model engine glow plugs only have to glow to a very dull red in a dark room. This amount of glow can not be seen in daylight at all.
Neil

[Grumph]

Are surface gap plugs still available ? Lohring's plug certainly looks well on the way to being one...
If you've got enough spark energy available they could be an option - just make sure to remove any plating on the outer electrode as it will lift and give you nice little hot spots...

[adegnes]

When do you plan on running the engine and seeing what happens and if it is ride-able?
Neil

As soon as possible... But there's alot om my plate atm, two kids(one 5months old), full-time day job ++
There might be an opening coming sunday cause I probably have the house for my self at least early in the day. Only problem is I'm going to a wedding party Saturday...
Need to figure out a cheap way of soundproofing the garage.


Alex, if you want to eliminate yet another component, add enough nitro and you very well might be able to turn off the ignition while the motor continues to run merrily along until the fuel runs out, LOL.


(More seriously, this auto-ignition possibility is why you should have some method of fuel cut-off if you are going to fool with nitro. Many an alky outboard racer, having "tipped the can" (added some percentage of nitro), has fired up his engine on the beach to warm it up before the race and experienced his engine whining along with the ignition switched off and the throttle closed (and we use full butterflys with no cut-outs, just so the engines WON'T idle).

Thanks Smitty, I should install a valve just in case.


We ran 40% nitro in this engine. It definitely stopped as soon as the plug burned off. The ground strap was a little hard on the piston on the way out the exhaust. On 15% nitro it ran fine.

Lohring Miller

332121

Looks very much like my plug after the lean run on the dyno.

[husaberg]

Are surface gap plugs still available ? Lohring's plug certainly looks well on the way to being one...
If you've got enough spark energy available they could be an option - just make sure to remove any plating on the outer electrode as it will lift and give you nice little hot spots...
Yip
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NGK-Spark-Plugs-R0045Q-10-Racing-Surface-Discharge-Spark-Plug-10mm-x-3-4-Reach-/111332408193
Mazda rotaryies come factory with them (abeit a Semi surface discharge)

[Flettner]

Are surface gap plugs still available ? Lohring's plug certainly looks well on the way to being one...
If you've got enough spark energy available they could be an option - just make sure to remove any plating on the outer electrode as it will lift and give you nice little hot spots...

I use Mazda rotary spark plugs (surface fire) in the 350. You can get them in 11 heat range. They are expensive but.
Sorry Husaberg, I should have kept reading.

[husaberg]

I use Mazda rotary spark plugs (surface fire) in the 350. You can get them in 11 heat range. They are expensive but.
Sorry Husaberg, I should have kept reading.

i should have spelled rotary right......

[ken seeber]

I thought surface gap spark plugs were heat rangeless........

[JanBros]

JanBros, thanks for reply...have you seen Agnes video... how is this possible? an excess of fuel already in the transfers? should he have purged the engine prior to trying to start? is the pull on the pipe sufficient to draw fuel up the transfers to start the engine... interesting.

when starting, the throttle valve is down and almost completly closes the crankcase. one could say that their is only a small "leak" : not enough to push everything that the piston moving down is pushed out through the carb and so some make it into the cylinder.

the realy interesting bit will be to see if the engine can be kept running opening the throttle without going into the powerband of the exhaust.

[adegnes]

when starting, the throttle valve is down and almost completly closes the crankcase. one could say that their is only a small "leak" : not enough to push everything that the piston moving down is pushed out through the carb and so some make it into the cylinder.


Plausible explanation.



the realy interesting bit will be to see if the engine can be kept running opening the throttle without going into the powerband of the exhaust.

I'll try my best to create this situation next time, though a bit hard with the centrifugal clutch.
First priority is getting in at least one proper power run to find out how it performs on the pipe.

[jonny quest]

Hang blankets down from the ceiling all the way around your dyno. Good soundproofing method.

[shnaggs]

@adegnes sound proof and cheep are not usually used in the same sentence. I am learning this the hard way currently cause I am building a recording studio in my basement. If you want to isolate your room, the best way is to build a room within a room. All that fancy foam you see hung on the walls does little for sound isolation, only absorbs the upper frequency range, and does nothing for the meet and potatoes.

[adegnes]

@adegnes sound proof and cheep are not usually used in the same sentence. I am learning this the hard way currently cause I am building a recording studio in my basement. If you want to isolate your room, the best way is to build a room within a room. All that fancy foam you see hung on the walls does little for sound isolation, only absorbs the upper frequency range, and does nothing for the meet and potatoes.



Hang blankets down from the ceiling all the way around your dyno. Good soundproofing method.

That's sort of a room inside a room isn't it?

[seattle smitty]

Smithy, if the spark plug has a higher than 50% platinum alloy electrode, it will act like a glow plug in a model engine when running Methanol. Nitro is not required . Being able to cut the fuel is essential if platinum pugs are being used that have a high level of alloy content. Model engine glow plugs only have to glow to a very dull red in a dark room. This amount of glow can not be seen in daylight at all.
Neil

I've read that about platinum plugs and methanol, Neil. As for nitro and a glowing spark plug ground strap, I've seen a cold engine go into auto ignition immediately after start-up, before anything had any chance to get hot; don't know how much nitro the owner had added, but I wouldn't think more than 20%. Yet I've seen engines running 40-45% run with none of this little drama. I have no explanation, but would add that that particular auto-igniting engine was probably more or less maximized for alcohol and thus had more compression built into it than I think is ideal for nitro.

Also I might add that the occasional engine that ran by itself with the ignition grounded was not making much power, since the closed butterfly was choking it off, and you could stop it by shoving a wooden paddle or whatever was handy against the side of the flywheel/rope-plate. So possibly my suggestion of adding a fuel cut-off to a motorcycle that's going to run nitro is superfluous; probably could just put it in gear and apply the brakes.
But since Alex is eliminating components (rotary valve and now ignition?), he could put 'er in gear and go for an auto-ignited, 24-7 ride!!

(For fuel experimenters, understand that my tiny knowledge of this stuff is way-old, from the open megaphone days of the Sixties. Expansion chambers add a whole new set of challenges when considering the use of nitro)(I think it can probably be done to good effect, but it would take a lot of experimenting to get it right, with a whole lot of variables and trade-offs. You might have to buy pistons by the case).

[breezy]

[QUOTE=JanBros;1131058426]when starting, the throttle valve is down and almost completly closes the crankcase. one could say that their is only a small "leak" : not enough to push everything that the piston moving down is pushed out through the carb and so some make it into the cylinder

is it possible that a fluctuating pressure differential between the leaking through the carb at btdc and atmosphere is occurring, performing a pumping action?:sherlock:

[Lightbulb]

My cousin was in a really bad accident when the throttle would not close, the ignition was disabled, it continued to the wall flat out.
It was put down to the platinum iridium plugs that they were using at the time. Model glow plug engines have been know to start
from dead cold from time to time when people put the starter on to them. I have seen a near flooded engine start from just flicking it over.
These engines that have easily started were using just methanol and castor oil. Engines that run the 10% to 30% nitro definitely restart
easier and will do so upto 10 seconds from the engine stopping and just a flick will make them restart without electrically igniting the glow plug.
Model engines usually use a fuel shut off to stop them.
Something that has been over looked , but is easiest done with EFI is to stop the fuel to shut down the engine. It is a good idea to develop some
form of fuel shut off that closes the main jet by some yet to be developed means could be a good thing.
I know it does not happen very often, an auto ignition situation, but if it is you that goes into a wall and then spend the rest of your life in recovery mode
is no fun at all.
Discussion is always good though and seeing other peoples experiences.
Neil

[adegnes]

Two solenoids, one cutting off supply to the carb, one dumping the floatbowl into suitable place would do the trick. Could be connected to the ignition kill switch.
Might make something like that if I ever get on the road...

[guyhockley]

Old aircooled VWs had an "Anti-dieseling solenoid valve".
And, Mazda have just announced their new "Compression Ignition Petrol Engine" that only uses plugs for starting and cold running...

[guyhockley]

Fletto, absolutely. Well done Alex.

Aways wondered if this one actually ran or even started. (was a simple Ozzie mod to make a Beeza Bantam to put out more than 3 hp)

332112332113

Funny when one sees a reed valved 125 kart engine not even start/run properly when a reed tip has broken off. Maybe the starting was due to being cranked with an electric starter, whereas that muscly Alex was probably spinning his at well over 2k rpm at least. (Probably could have done more, but didn’t want to wake all his kiddies:yes:).

Maybe for KZ racing one could have a reed valve made with some material that would fail (eg a condom, preferably new ) that would pass thru the engine with no damage and then be 24/7 from then on, gaining its 5 hp.

So many things to try. 1 hour to go til the Moto GP starts, been a bit starved of late.

Not exactly a performance engine - this is from an article called "The Old J80 Johnson" and elsewhere he said it was a 1hp outboard:

"The old motor ran good too... first pull,
hot or cold... had to work the choke and sihgle
needle valve with some expertise. My grand-
children and I took it to Lake Iamonia on my
old Grumman Sport boat to see what it was
like.Though it thrummed the aluminum pretty
good, it didn't vibrate nearly as bad asl ex-
pected. It is one of those primitive old
slow-speed, two-cycle engines that aspirates
right into the cast iron cylinder when the little
two inch piston opens the port at the bottom
of the stroke.
Since the fuel doesn't go through the
crankcase like modern two cycle engines, all
that is lubricated by an expostulation of oil
and gasoline (8o2., a small Coca Cola bottle,
to the gallon) from the cylinder at each com-
pression stroke through little tubes to both
crankshaft bearings and through holes in the
crankshaft to the connecting rod joumal, wrist
pin, and all, like a four cycle engine with an
oil pump... kind of marvelous.
There are no seals on anything (except a
regular adjustable, leather packing gland,
"Chicago Rawhide" on the propeller shaft) and
that makes it smoke out from under the fly-
wheel a little bit while it is cold but when it
warms up, it is cleaner running than a British
Seagull. It has a dry exhaust and you can see
how much it is smoking and lean it on down
with the big-knob style needle valve. Got a
big aluminum take-apart muffler sort of like a
Model T which it is good to avoid when you
have to tilt it, that and the spark plug and the
flywheel."

[ken seeber]

http://newatlas.com/mazda-skyactiv-x-compression-ignition/50803/

Didn't say anything about 70k rpm though..:yes:

[Flettner]

Still using spark plugs but.

[SwePatrick]

Question:

Pvl analog ignition,
Is there any way to get more meat out of the spark?

I´m at this point using no resistance things thoughout whole system
Getting misfires when trying to reach more power at this point.
I have gapped the plug down to 0.3mm, under that it starts to misfire at idle.
But it still misfires above 74hp(engine hp)

I have tried different plugs and different setups with resistors, best is totally free from resistors and non iridium/platinum
plugs.

I have also tried a ignitech ignition, it had no juice at all, but big possibilities of upgrades, but i felt that if everythings getting beefier the bike gets heavier and gained power would be eaten up by weightincrease so i ditched that ;)
The PVL is an '458' with 4000 windings, and the curve seems to work just fine therefor i would like to give it a chance.

Rgds
Patrick

[adegnes]

Question:

Pvl analog ignition,
Is there any way to get more meat out of the spark?

I´m at this point using no resistance things thoughout whole system
Getting misfires when trying to reach more power at this point.
I have gapped the plug down to 0.3mm, under that it starts to misfire at idle.
But it still misfires above 74hp(engine hp)

I have tried different plugs and different setups with resistors, best is totally free from resistors and non iridium/platinum
plugs.

I have also tried a ignitech ignition, it had no juice at all, but big possibilities of upgrades, but i felt that if everythings getting beefier the bike gets heavier and gained power would be eaten up by weightincrease so i ditched that ;)
The PVL is an '458' with 4000 windings, and the curve seems to work just fine therefor i would like to give it a chance.

Rgds
Patrick

What coil?
Maybe you could try one with higher primary-secondary winding ratio?

[lodgernz]

I knocked this up the other day.

It's just a prototype to test whether the twisted belt arrangement is capable of high revs.
To my surprise, it was untroubled by blips to 14,000RPM and sustained 12,000 for a few seconds.
Here's a video of it running: https://youtu.be/7Ffs1x145zw

I set the timing to: Open 135º BTDC, Close 80º ATDC, but once assembled, I found it was 5º late (at both ends, obviously) so it ran a bit hairy. I can fix that of course. Main object was to prove the belt drive.

I have no idea whether this setup will provide more power, although I suspect it might produce a better mid-range curve.
I'd appreciate any comments or advice.
Dyno time needed...

[adegnes]

I knocked this up the other day.

It's just a prototype to test whether the twisted belt arrangement is capable of high revs.
To my surprise, it was untroubled by blips to 14,000RPM and sustained 12,000 for a few seconds.
Here's a video of it running: https://youtu.be/7Ffs1x145zw

I set the timing to: Open 135º BTDC, Close 80º ATDC, but once assembled, I found it was 5º late (at both ends, obviously) so it ran a bit hairy. I can fix that of course. Main object was to prove the belt drive.

I have no idea whether this setup will provide more power, although I suspect it might produce a better mid-range curve.
I'd appreciate any comments or advice.
Dyno time needed...

Nice!
.........

[TZ350]

I knocked this up the other day.
332135
Dyno time needed...

Very clever .... :clap::2thumbsup looking forward to seeing it at the track.

[F5 Dave]

Gordon Bennett. Looks good. Supposed to be dirt riding Sunday but if its too wet might get some dyno time in. Or one night.

[Flettner]

I knocked this up the other day.

It's just a prototype to test whether the twisted belt arrangement is capable of high revs.
To my surprise, it was untroubled by blips to 14,000RPM and sustained 12,000 for a few seconds.
Here's a video of it running: https://youtu.be/7Ffs1x145zw

I set the timing to: Open 135º BTDC, Close 80º ATDC, but once assembled, I found it was 5º late (at both ends, obviously) so it ran a bit hairy. I can fix that of course. Main object was to prove the belt drive.

I have no idea whether this setup will provide more power, although I suspect it might produce a better mid-range curve.
I'd appreciate any comments or advice.
Dyno time needed...

Nice, x2....

[SwePatrick]

What coil?
Maybe you could try one with higher primary-secondary winding ratio?

PVL 458 coil.
I dunno the exact function of PVL´s coils, but they have some sort of internal electronic that one could say very simplified has a function of a cdi.

From stator to coil there is only two wires that controls everything *lol*

[WilDun]

That looks good, makes sense!- Is that that similar to the system tried by Konig on their flat fours? - the twisted belt will do away with any convoluted and expensive gearing!

[adegnes]

PVL 458 coil.
I dunno the exact function of PVL´s coils, but they have some sort of internal electronic that one could say very simplified has a function of a cdi.

From stator to coil there is only two wires that controls everything *lol*

Ahh, too bad. Difficult to test different units then.

[Peter1962]

That looks good, makes sense!- Is that that similar to the system tried by Konig on their flat fours? - the twisted belt will do away with any convoluted and expensive gearing!

If I remember correct wobbly wrote on that subject that it is not suitable for a Kart engine, because of the pretty violent way of downshifting makes the belt slip.

[dark art]

I knocked this up the other day.

It's just a prototype to test whether the twisted belt arrangement is capable of high revs.
To my surprise, it was untroubled by blips to 14,000RPM and sustained 12,000 for a few seconds.
Here's a video of it running: https://youtu.be/7Ffs1x145zw

I set the timing to: Open 135º BTDC, Close 80º ATDC, but once assembled, I found it was 5º late (at both ends, obviously) so it ran a bit hairy. I can fix that of course. Main object was to prove the belt drive.

I have no idea whether this setup will provide more power, although I suspect it might produce a better mid-range curve.
I'd appreciate any comments or advice.
Dyno time needed...
I really like the way you used the autolube pump mechanism to drive the valve. Very ingenuous.

Cant remember where but saw some pictures of kart engine rotary valve driven by belt, from the crank. Usually kart engines do a lot of rpm. :cool:

EDIT: I did remember where I saw the picture, in A. Graham bell's book "two-stroke performance tuning":

332138

[adegnes]

I can imagine a reed valved engine making more power without the obstruction of the reed in place - but does a rotary valved engine benefit in the same way? A rotary valve, when open, gives no more resistance to flow than if there was no valve at all... and if the longer duration does give a power increase wouldn't this have shown up in the timing tests that so many have done?

I've been thinking.
Has there ever been experimented with multiple cutout valves?
If everyone has been using the tried and true method of increasing timing in small increments until powerloss then one step back, there could be more power say ten steps forward but no one ever went there.

If valveless makes more power:

Mean crankcase pressure vs atmospheric in the typical valve closed period(say from 85atdc to 140btdc) has to be positive.

Maybe a carefully designed multiple cutout valve could be even better than no valve?

Does this make any sense?
I'll see what engmod has to say on the matter.

BTW Frits, you might have received a mail about something.

[Frits Overmars]

I knocked this up the other day. It's just a prototype to test whether the twisted belt arrangement is capable of high revs. https://youtu.be/7Ffs1x145zwI like it very much. If I wasn't already involved in 24/7, I'd try your system right away.


Has there ever been experimented with multiple cutout valves? If everyone has been using the tried and true method of increasing timing in small increments until powerloss then one step back, there could be more power say ten steps forward but no one ever went there. BTW Frits, you might have received a mail about something.Alex, you may want to look here:
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130300158#post1130300158
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130820832#post1130820832
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1131036800#post1131036800

BTW: I didn't receive any mails.

[jonny quest]

There was a right angle grinder on the market with contra rotating blades to eliminate kick back.

Pull out the electric motor, rig up a drive system to your engine, two carbs... get where I'm going with this?

https://youtu.be/nr7SkiBJI3w

[F5 Dave]

Um? Lots of ally shavings in the crankcase?? :msn-wink:

[jonny quest]

Lol, no.

2 disk valves. Front or rearward facing. 2 carbs, one for left side transfer tunnel, one for right side.

Each disk is a mirror image of each other.

[adegnes]

I like it very much. If I wasn't already involved in 24/7, I'd try your system right away.

Alex, you may want to look here:
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130300158#post1130300158
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130820832#post1130820832
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1131036800#post1131036800

BTW: I didn't receive any mails today.

Thanks Frits, I'll read up! I forget how much has been covered here over the years.

I tried registering to another two stroke forum(saw alot of traffic from there to my youtube channel, thought I'd check it out) was invites only, I was like "Frits Overmars sent me", and it went through. Currently waiting for my account to be approved. Thought maybe you'd get a mail about it. Or you're not on there and my registration attempt went straight into the trash...

[oldjohnno]

I've been thinking...

If valveless makes more power:

Mean crankcase pressure vs atmospheric in the typical valve closed period(say from 85atdc to 140btdc) has to be positive.



Perhaps the disc-less dyno test should include various intake tract lengths?

[adegnes]

Perhaps the disc-less dyno test should include various intake tract lengths?

Absolutely!

[wobbly]

The PVL coil is a CDI and coil in one, and there are no different winding ratios available.
One magnet on the rotor supplies the power to the CDI the other activates the trigger.
There are various stator windings available,and the more turns ( like 4000 ) the greater the retard available but less " power " at the plug.
I got 5000 turn coils made years ago ( no plastic covering ) to use on Banshee quads as the kick start hardly turns the thing over and the high ratio
winding gives a fatter spark at kickover ( also more retard as a bonus ).
But anything other than a pretty much stock engine and the plugs would misfire at higher rpm.
The kart stators are the lowest number of turns ( 50 ohms ) and have no trouble at all with high speed high power engines, but that has a useless dead straight ( flat ) line ignition curve.
They do run best with no resistance, in the cap or the plug, but sadly there are no trick rare earth plugs available with no internal resistance - that would be the best case scenario.

Edit - TM sell a Brisk plug with no resistance that does work well with the PVL - part on box is L08S Silver 1827

[lodgernz]

If I remember correct wobbly wrote on that subject that it is not suitable for a Kart engine, because of the pretty violent way of downshifting makes the belt slip.

Yes, it still has to be proven on the track, and my shitty downshifts could well throw the belt. Yesterday was just the first (static) run of the RV, so there's still much to sort out.

Of course, because the NSR engine is cylinder reed rather than case reed, an RV like this, mounted on the reed block housing, won't necessarily offer any improvement over reeds.
The plan is to rip lots of alloy and cast iron out of anywhere in the engine that looks to impede inlet flow, but I wanted to try it first on this 50 engine, as it was already running quite well on reeds, with almost 12HP at the wheel.

[2T Institute]

I knocked this up the other day.

It's just a prototype to test whether the twisted belt arrangement is capable of high revs.
To my surprise, it was untroubled by blips to 14,000RPM and sustained 12,000 for a few seconds.
Here's a video of it running: https://youtu.be/7Ffs1x145zw

I set the timing to: Open 135º BTDC, Close 80º ATDC, but once assembled, I found it was 5º late (at both ends, obviously) so it ran a bit hairy. I can fix that of course. Main object was to prove the belt drive.

I have no idea whether this setup will provide more power, although I suspect it might produce a better mid-range curve.
I'd appreciate any comments or advice.
Dyno time needed...

love it, make closing at 90* atdc

[lodgernz]

love it, make closing at 90* atdc

Really? Everything I've read says that's a bit late. Wobbly? Frits? Any comment?

[wobbly]

The Aprilia had it at 140/90 for peak at around 13,000.
Any earlyer and the carbs go to shit, any later and it looses all the mid.
Early closing at say 85 looses all the overev.

[SwePatrick]

The PVL coil is a CDI and coil in one, and there are no different winding ratios available.
One magnet on the rotor supplies the power to the CDI the other activates the trigger.
There are various stator windings available,and the more turns ( like 4000 ) the greater the retard available but less " power " at the plug.
I got 5000 turn coils made years ago ( no plastic covering ) to use on Banshee quads as the kick start hardly turns the thing over and the high ratio
winding gives a fatter spark at kickover ( also more retard as a bonus ).
But anything other than a pretty much stock engine and the plugs would misfire at higher rpm.
The kart stators are the lowest number of turns ( 50 ohms ) and have no trouble at all with high speed high power engines, but that has a useless dead straight ( flat ) line ignition curve.
They do run best with no resistance, in the cap or the plug, but sadly there are no trick rare earth plugs available with no internal resistance - that would be the best case scenario.

Edit - TM sell a Brisk plug with no resistance that does work well with the PVL - part on box is L08S Silver 1827


Thanks for info.
I´m just sold to the stability of PVL, solid like a tank, never fails.(well, not yet)
And the curve seems to fit my engine just perfectly now after activating the exhaustports.(had them locked open before).
I have a perfect flat torque powerband that´s about 3500rpm wide.

And by that i want to give the PVL 458/4000 some more chances.
I dunno, but i ordered some silver sparkplugs just to minimize losses in spark.
Maybe a pluglead with silvercore could help also.
Dunno if even exists thou.

Rgds.
Patrick

[lodgernz]

The Aprilia had it at 140/90 for peak at around 13,000.
Any earlyer and the carbs go to shit, any later and it looses all the mid.
Early closing at say 85 looses all the overev.

Thanks Wobbly.
My 50 also had peak power at 13K with reeds, so, if I read you correctly, my timing of 135/80 is going to give reasonable mid-range but not peak power, and bugger all over-rev?
Damn, I'll have to make a new disk blade.

[Flettner]

Shift the housing.

[lodgernz]

Shift the housing.

I don't know what you mean Neil, but on thinking about it, I can just cut the existing blade to extend the open period and retime it.

[JanBros]

anybody looking for a cheap DIY programable ignition ?

I searched the entire net (in english) for one I could understand/built/program myself, but no luck finding one that ticked all the boxes.
until I once searched in french, and bingo :woohoo:

all that is needed are :
arduino nano
ibgt
hall sensor

and if you use an arduino clone, a voltage regulator.

http://a110a.free.fr/SPIP172/article.php3?id_article=142

depending on the Hall-sensor you use, can be made for under 20 euro, easy to built and easy to program
the 1GT101DC is quite expensive, but I found one that is almost identical and works, for about half the price : http://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/datasheets/hall_effect_sensors/littelfuse_hall_effect_sensors_55505_datasheet.pdf .pdf

mine worked in a testing setup today :woohoo:

https://s27.postimg.org/wgwideh03/P1060528.jpg

https://s27.postimg.org/jo8edh5eb/P1060527.jpg

inner tube arrounfd the box to cover the USB plug (just prototyping)

https://s27.postimg.org/kch8wf443/P1060526.jpg

softare (arduino file) is ready, just copy-paste. there are 4 parameters to enter (dwell-type, hall-sensor type, ° of sensor compared to TDC and nr of cylinders)
then there are 2 lines one for rpm and one for the corresponding ° of advance. one can have infinite setup-points. just change the points, plug-in the usb cable and in less than a minute you have a new curve in the box :wari:

if anybody needs help with hte french, just ask :msn-wink:

[2T Institute]

Thanks Wobbly.
My 50 also had peak power at 13K with reeds, so, if I read you correctly, my timing of 135/80 is going to give reasonable mid-range but not peak power, and bugger all over-rev?
Damn, I'll have to make a new disk blade.

A 50cc should be just flat out everywhere and rev to 17,000

[F5 Dave]

Not on our kart tracks. A Suzuki RG with std parts will fail if shown much over 13000. But clearly better parts will extend things considerably.

17? Heck that's well out of my experience but I built way too conservative. Blowdown for those revs would be hard to get close to ideal.

[Triplenut]

This is as close as I'll ever get to making a contribution to this amazing thread.
See below, may be of interest to two stroke fans in the mainland.
Not a bad two stroke engineer that Mike Sinclair :) .......

[Pursang]

anybody looking for a cheap DIY programable ignition ?

I searched the entire net (in english) for one I could understand/built/program myself, but no luck finding one that ticked all the boxes.
until I once searched in french, and bingo :woohoo:

all that is needed are :
arduino nano
ibgt
hall sensor

and if you use an arduino clone, a voltage regulator.

depending on the Hall-sensor you use, can be made for under 20 euro, easy to built and easy to program
the 1GT101DC is quite expensive, but I found one that is almost identical and works, for about half the price : http://m.littelfuse.com/~/media/electronics/datasheets/hall_effect_sensors/littelfuse_hall_effect_sensors_55505_datasheet.pdf .pdf

mine worked in a testing setup today :woohoo:

softare (arduino file) is ready, just copy-paste. there are 4 parameters to enter (dwell-type, hall-sensor type, ° of sensor compared to TDC and nr of cylinders)
then there are 2 lines one for rpm and one for the corresponding ° of advance. one can have infinite setup-points. just change the points, plug-in the usb cable and in less than a minute you have a new curve in the box :wari:

if anybody needs help with hte french, just ask :msn-wink:

That is a neat, simple, bit of gear, and by the look of it, very effective.
(And, more importantly, within my technical capabilities).

Pity I bailed on French in 8th grade. Je ne peux pas lire le français pour les noix.

Help with the translation would be appreciated.

Cheers, Daryl.

[oldjohnno]

anybody looking for a cheap DIY programable ignition ?

I searched the entire net (in english) for one I could understand/built/program myself, but no luck finding one that ticked all the boxes.
until I once searched in french, and bingo :woohoo:

all that is needed are :
arduino nano
ibgt
hall sensor

and if you use an arduino clone, a voltage regulator.

http://a110a.free.fr/SPIP172/article.php3?id_article=142



That's interesting, though it's worth noting that it's an inductive ignition, not a CD. I've never found an inductive system that will pass my crude ignition performance test ie. the ability to consistently fire a surface gap plug.

But I still think this programmable circuit could be very useful when used as a trigger for an automotive CDI box, thus combining a tunable advance curve with a very high energy ignition output. I've been using automotive boxes (eg Mallory 6864M) on bikes for the last couple of years and they'll happily fire a surface gap plug that's been dipped in the grease bucket but they generally rely on external timing control.

Most automotive CDIs provide multiple sparks to around 3000rpm with a 4 stroke V8, or around 12000rpm with a 2 stroke single. The multiple sparks sound like a squeak rather than a crack when the plug fires, and I noticed that I could hear this happening when I triggered a spark even when the plug was screwed into the head.

I never thought much about the noise until I came across this on another forum:


About 25 years ago I noticed the cars with the spectacular nitrous eruptions, scoops in low earth orbit, etc. had canister coils, mostly the Blaster 2. The cars with HEI coil-in-cap systems didn’t have the problem. This is with CD boxes driving the coils in all cases. Even stock HEI systems had fewer problems than CD with the can coils.

For $hits and giggles I compared several coils with a dB meter by using a plastic tube with the meter at one end and various plug gaps at the other, using a 6A box triggered by an MSD tester. The loudest was the big HVC coil, the second was the cheap $16 Tru-Tech, which oddly enough was louder than the high-dollar version of the same application. Canister coils are bunk and the worst was the little tiny HVC coils.

While doing this I also looked at the wave forms with an oscilloscope and the E core coils have longer arc duration.

Applied rocket science suggests the spark with the most energy will make the loudest sound.

The HEI type coil has a much larger core, the “E” core”, around the bobbin than a canister type coil. The core stores and transfers magnetic energy from the primary to the secondary winding so it’s no surprise the coil with the most material in the core has the most energy in the spark. Who would have thought?

I think this method of assessing spark output might actually have some merit. Looking at the spark doesn't tell you anything and scope traces are subject to interpretation. But I've found that the systems that will happily fire a surface gap plug swimming in methanol and oil (and even some water if I haven't purged the engine properly :o ) also make the most noise. The best coil I've found is the big FD478 Ford coil, which is also commonly sold (with a fancy anodized housing and a higher price) as a "performance" coil by Crane and others.

[OopsClunkThud]

I built an arduino based time-speed-distance display that used a hall sensor on the front wheel. Didn't think the arduino would be fast enough to keep up with the crank.

I see several floats in the code. I had to go to some length to keep floats out of any calculation done within the interrupt and in the end changed most decimals to fixed point to keep the cycles down.

[diesel62]

I built an arduino based time-speed-distance display that used a hall sensor on the front wheel. Didn't think the arduino would be fast enough to keep up with the crank.

I see several floats in the code. I had to go to some length to keep floats out of any calculation done within the interrupt and in the end changed most decimals to fixed point to keep the cycles down.How about this. https://speeduino.com/wiki/index.php/Overview

Sent from my SM-P555 using Tapatalk

[JanBros]

Help with the translation would be appreciated.

Cheers, Daryl.

what do you wanna know ? just the basics to get it working or every tiny little detail (my french ain't perfect neither) .

is there a better topic (one about ignitions for exapmle) to discuss this, as I only come to Kiwi-biker for the ESE topic ?

[Pursang]

what do you wanna know ? just the basics to get it working or every tiny little detail (my french ain't perfect neither) .

is there a better topic (one about ignitions for exapmle) to discuss this, as I only come to Kiwi-biker for the ESE topic ?

That's OK, I can cut and paste the bits I need into an online translator.

Like oldjohnno stated, I will probably adapt it as a trigger for CDI.

Happy to follow this topic to wherever is appropriate.:niceone:

Cheers, Daryl.

[TZ350]

This talk about ignitions is very helpful to have here as we are always interested in something better for our Buckets. Thanks... :2thumbsup

[Flettner]

I'd be interested in a 'dumb' CDI, a 12v one that just needs a four volts signal to trigger it. A four volt signal from the Link ECU. The Link will sort the timing and tell the CDI to do it's job, at the right time.

[oldjohnno]

I'd be interested in a 'dumb' CDI, a 12v one that just needs a four volts signal to trigger it. A four volt signal from the Link ECU. The Link will sort the timing and tell the CDI to do it's job, at the right time.

I think most CDIs could be triggered by an ECU without too much effort. Most automotive boxes are set up so that they can be triggered in either of two ways: one is via a pair of wires connected to a variable reluctance coil (ie. trigger coil, pulse coil, reluctor or whatever you want to call it), usually set up so that the CD fires when the signal changes polarity as the "lump" passes by the coil. The second method is a single wire that is switched to ground via a set of contact points or a Hall sensor, and these fire when the path to ground is broken. If this wire was connected to ground via a resistor, and the signal from the ECU was also connected via another pull-up resistor then I think it would trigger.

The main problem with automotive boxes on bikes is their sheer bulk - it can be difficult to find room for them. I avoid MSD stuff; the quality and reliability has gone down the toilet in recent years.

[Flettner]

I've built a 12v CDI years ago, and it's SCR was triggered by a 4v pulse. Trouble was it is large unit to house and I didn't have any advance retard circuitry. The Link will output a 4v square wave pulse, this would trigger an SCR .
The Link will sort all the timing calculation then send out the pulse at the correct time.
What I would like is a small 12v CDI that's easy to house and or build with no timing circuitry just a basic unit.

[TZ350]

What I would like is a small 12v CDI that's easy to house and or build with no timing circuitry just a basic unit.

Jaycar kit KC5466 $31.90+gst

https://www.jaycar.co.nz/kits-science-learning/electronic-project-kits/automotive/c/102C

Use the High Energy Ignition kit KC5513 $67.90 to charge the capacitors in the KC5466 CDI kit.

Or make you own 12V to 300V DC DC converter. http://www.eleccircuit.com/dc-power-supply-300v-from-battery-12v/

Or you could use the high voltage windings on a (Chinese) stator/rotor kit to charge the KC5466 CDI kit's capacitors, plus have 12V available for running the EFI system.

332189

One of those Chinese scooter CDI's might be worth a look too.

There are two types AC and 12V DC

332190

The power feed can be 12V dc from the battery. This type has its own internal DC DC converter to charge the CDI capacitor. The AC version gets it's high voltage for the CDI capacitor from the engines stater. These are cheap on Trademe for $25 or so.

[oldjohnno]

I tested some of those Chinese CDs, most of the four stroke versions have a goofy advance curve built in. The little blue anodized two-stroke units ("New Racing") have a somewhat usable retard curve that's fairly linear. None however have enough output to pass the surface-gap-plug test.

[palezu]

Hi all. I've been enjoying this thread for 4 years now I think, and I thought maybe it's time to finally post something. I'm 21 years old and from Finland. I have been into twostrokes since 2011 when I bought my first motorized vehicle, it was a chinese 50cc scooter. It didn't take long when I already had the cylinder and dremel in my hands. But the scooter, and other mopeds I have had since then, have gone now, but I still have one. Let me present my current "bucket":

http://i.imgur.com/1liP8RD.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/eoTsjL0.jpg?1

It's a popular chinese 125cc pit bike, the 4 stroke engine I ditched and welded mounts for a AM6 engine I had lying around. It has a KX80 radiator, and just recently I elongated the rear swingarm, as the bike wheelied a bit too easily preventing fast launches. In Finland, those chinese pit bikes are called "Samurai" bikes because there was one brand of pitbikes called that, so I call my bike Samurai AM6.

http://i.imgur.com/SKWcJEh.jpg

The cylinder is a 68cc 60euro Ebay cylinder which has been generously lightened by dremel. I have welded the exhaust port divider from a slice of old cylinder and surprisingly enough it has held up 30 minutes of running and very hard revving and there are no marks in the piston or ring. Transfer ducts are also improved with some JB-Weld.

I also have my homemade programmable ignition (maybe this is what made me to post, as you have just discussed about ignitions):

http://i.imgur.com/eqRqtD8.jpg?1

It works directly with the AM6 original Ducati stator/flywheel, and is CDI type. It uses the same microprocessor as an Arduino Nano. My version does not use an Arduino board, but I have published a schematic and Arduino source code if you want to make one using an Arduino Nano board:

schematic: http://imgur.com/QiBRoR2
arduino code file: http://www.mediafire.com/file/2pwpaiwejqeqeck/arduinocdi_3.2_en.ino

It is designed to work with the Ducati stator internal trigger coil which gives a special signal, but I think it should work with a regular 2-wire pickup you can find from scooters. If it doesn't work, you can try bypassing capacitor C5 with a wire and removing resistor R7. So basically it will work with just about any AC stator which has a high voltage charging coil and a pickup. CDI can be powered with a 9v battery, if you remember to disconnect the battery after riding, it will last for some time. But it can also be powered by 12v system, through the 7809 regulator in the schematic.

Personally I have not build one using a Nano board (as I'm professional and make my own board with surface mount components :rolleyes:), so I have a slight concern that there might be something in the code that needs changes. But at least one guy here has build one according to my instructions and he got it working. At least the circuit should be good, at first there were reliability problems, but current version has worked quite a long time now, and has been run to 16000rpm without problem.

I have made a couple of exhaust pipes by hydroforming. This is the latest, not very pretty but works to some extent.

http://i.imgur.com/tZO939m.jpg?1

It has been designed with Frit's exhaust pipe concept, though I'm afraid that due to my poor fabrication, the dimensions do not exactly match. This pipe is about 700mm long as I wanted to try some real mens RPM capability of the engine. Cylinder timings are about 190/125. With this pipe powerband is hilariously high, about 12000-15000rpm. Carburetor is a cheap 26mm PWK. Currently I'm getting about 13-14 rear wheel HP at some 14500rpm. I use the GSF 'street dyno' for measuring power. I think power is quite low compared to rpm, but extracting real BMEP turns out to be very hard..:crazy: I am amazed of some results posted in this thread. I dream of breaking 20hp someday haha.

[sitkuura]

Hi

Lots of good information, thaks for that.

The reason why i now writing is that palezu-cdi with arduino. I made and test it. Works fine, but there is some little problems with advance tuning. Needs to mount in engine that can idle :rolleyes: so i can find where the problem is... By the way i don't understand really much about electronics or that arduino code, i just follow the instructions:whistle:

[jasonu]

Hi all. I've been enjoying this thread for 4 years now I think, and I thought maybe it's time to finally post something. I'm 21 years old and from Finland. I have been into twostrokes since 2011 when I bought my first motorized vehicle, it was a chinese 50cc scooter. It didn't take long when I already had the cylinder and dremel in my hands. But the scooter, and other mopeds I have had since then, have gone now, but I still have one. Let me present my current "bucket":

http://i.imgur.com/1liP8RD.jpg?1
http://i.imgur.com/eoTsjL0.jpg?1

It's a popular chinese 125cc pit bike, the 4 stroke engine I ditched and welded mounts for a AM6 engine I had lying around. It has a KX80 radiator, and just recently I elongated the rear swingarm, as the bike wheelied a bit too easily preventing fast launches. In Finland, those chinese pit bikes are called "Samurai" bikes because there was one brand of pitbikes called that, so I call my bike Samurai AM6.

http://i.imgur.com/SKWcJEh.jpg

The cylinder is a 68cc 60euro Ebay cylinder which has been generously lightened by dremel. I have welded the exhaust port divider from a slice of old cylinder and surprisingly enough it has held up 30 minutes of running and very hard revving and there are no marks in the piston or ring. Transfer ducts are also improved with some JB-Weld.




I also have my homemade programmable ignition (maybe this is what made me to post, as you have just discussed about ignitions):

http://i.imgur.com/eqRqtD8.jpg?1

It works directly with the AM6 original Ducati stator/flywheel, and is CDI type. It uses the same microprocessor as an Arduino Nano. My version does not use an Arduino board, but I have published a schematic and Arduino source code if you want to make one using an Arduino Nano board:

schematic: http://imgur.com/QiBRoR2
arduino code file: http://www.mediafire.com/file/2pwpaiwejqeqeck/arduinocdi_3.2_en.ino

It is designed to work with the Ducati stator internal trigger coil which gives a special signal, but I think it should work with a regular 2-wire pickup you can find from scooters. If it doesn't work, you can try bypassing capacitor C5 with a wire and removing resistor R7. So basically it will work with just about any AC stator which has a high voltage charging coil and a pickup. CDI can be powered with a 9v battery, if you remember to disconnect the battery after riding, it will last for some time. But it can also be powered by 12v system, through the 7809 regulator in the schematic.

Personally I have not build one using a Nano board (as I'm professional and make my own board with surface mount components :rolleyes:), so I have a slight concern that there might be something in the code that needs changes. But at least one guy here has build one according to my instructions and he got it working. At least the circuit should be good, at first there were reliability problems, but current version has worked quite a long time now, and has been run to 16000rpm without problem.

I have made a couple of exhaust pipes by hydroforming. This is the latest, not very pretty but works to some extent.

http://i.imgur.com/tZO939m.jpg?1

It has been designed with Frit's exhaust pipe concept, though I'm afraid that due to my poor fabrication, the dimensions do not exactly match. This pipe is about 700mm long as I wanted to try some real mens RPM capability of the engine. Cylinder timings are about 190/125. With this pipe powerband is hilariously high, about 12000-15000rpm. Carburetor is a cheap 26mm PWK. Currently I'm getting about 13-14 rear wheel HP at some 14500rpm. I use the GSF 'street dyno' for measuring power. I think power is quite low compared to rpm, but extracting real BMEP turns out to be very hard..:crazy: I am amazed of some results posted in this thread. I dream of breaking 20hp someday haha.

Brace the swingarm where you have cut and welded it before it kills you.

[palezu]

Good note. It has been internally braced :)

[JanBros]

I also have my homemade programmable ignition (maybe this is what made me to post, as you have just discussed about ignitions):

http://i.imgur.com/eqRqtD8.jpg?1

It works directly with the AM6 original Ducati stator/flywheel, and is CDI type. It uses the same microprocessor as an Arduino Nano. My version does not use an Arduino board, but I have published a schematic and Arduino source code if you want to make one using an Arduino Nano board:

schematic: http://imgur.com/QiBRoR2
arduino code file: http://www.mediafire.com/file/2pwpaiwejqeqeck/arduinocdi_3.2_en.ino



looks interesting but I can not use it, as my MX-moped does not have high-voltage stator coils.
any chance you can post a full-english arduino .ino file ?

mounted the hall-sensor on my moped today and have spark, now need to find a coil (used a twin lead coil for testing)

[Frits Overmars]

when starting, the throttle valve is down and almost completly closes the crankcase. one could say that their is only a small "leak" : not enough to push everything that the piston moving down is pushed out through the carb and so some make it into the cylinder.How is this for a 'small leak' ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utfzYstegE8&feature=grec_index

[F5 Dave]

I liked when he twisted the throttle and went "waaarp waaarp":cool:

So, has your FOS cylinder been tested in anger yet? Maybe its posted elsewhere.

[TZ350]

How is this for a 'small leak' ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utfzYstegE8&feature=grec_index

Great, looks like a lot of interest in the 24/7 concept.... :banana:

A couple of mid 20's hp 70cc engines using common aftermarket cylinders.

Aftermarket cylinders have been seen on one or two fast buckets here, easy to do if you are keen on racing a competitive 2T.

https://youtu.be/Zd8eVkd4yZk

https://youtu.be/GGJi86H6M4Y

My favorite is this big 30+ hp NOS scooter.

https://youtu.be/RjPSD2e3p70

I would love to see a dyno result and Youtube clip of a 70cc turbo 2T engine if anyone has one.

[TZ350]

A RV 2T running with no RV, that is truly epic --- :drinknsin--- very much looking forward to hearing if it's ridable.

Why Epic? A lot of people are riding with broken or missing reed petal :msn-wink: -> Strange idle, weaker performance

Why Epic .... well intuitively I have always thought you needed some sort of inlet valve timing control to make a two stroke engine work properly. My guess is most people think so too. It would be truly Epic and rather funny if we have all been clinging to a myth.

Flat earth, center of the universe thinking and tuning myths abound, as an example, I have an old 500cc single cylinder motorcycle with an exhaust valve as large as the inlet and with the single exhaust port opening into two large exhaust pipes.

332206 an example of an early 500cc JAP racing single cylinder 4T engine with Siamese exhaust.

It was an Epic step forward for 4T performance when the need for big exhaust valves and pipes proved to be a myth. Big exhausts must have intuitively seemed right at the time but as with so many intuitive faith based beliefs it was proved wrong and the change in understanding was Epic.

There have been valve less single speed industrial 2T stationary engines that relied on inlet resonance before.

My guess is that a no rotary valve or any sort of valve 2T engine could be made to work well if the inertia of the inlet stream could be varied to match the ramming effect required to keep the fresh mixture in the crankcase as the rpm varied. BrrmBrrrm.

Something like a variable length, or variable area inlet tract or both might make a variable speed valveless inlet 2T work well.

Variable area may not be that hard to do.

[oldjohnno]

Why Epic .... well intuitively I have always thought you needed some sort of inlet valve timing control to make a two stroke engine work properly. My guess is most people think so too. It would be truly Epic and rather funny if we have all been clinging to a myth...

I'd be willing to bet my entire personal fortune - and I own assets to the value of almost sixteen dollars - that it turns out the simplest way to make a two stroke easy to start and run well over a wide rpm range, both on and off the pipe is some sort of inlet valving...

[breezy]

How is this for a 'small leak' ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utfzYstegE8&feature=grec_index

Frits is this explainable? there is obviously some way the cylinder is being filled with residual fuel to start combustion. angle of cylinder barrel? or is it on the pipe:rolleyes:


come on agnes... im up early for your next experiment:2thumbsup

[Frits Overmars]

Frits is this explainable? there is obviously some way the cylinder is being filled with residual fuel to start combustion. angle of cylinder barrel? or is it on the pipe:rolleyes:Anything is explainable (unless it's female) but for now I'll confine myself to guessable: I suppose there was a puddle of fuel in the crankcase, so an igniteable mixture could form. Compressing the cylinder contents and then releasing them through the exhaust port could create just enough mixture movement to get some of it in the vicinity of the spark plug...

[ken seeber]

OJ, you fibber, I would reckon that the left half of your Metralla head would be worth more than $16. :weird:

As to full inlet control over anything else, I’m not so sure. What about an unthrottled inlet, whether 24/7 or not? Total flow thru the engine is by the height, hence timing, of the transfers. If some bloke in WA didn’t get distracted with work, kart preparation and local karting politics, we might find out soon. Hopefully. :wait:

Agree with Frits, the only way it could have run is using residue fuel or unless there was some other hidden form of supply. Doubt it looking at the circumstances. Mind you, I wouldn’t be doing a “full Monty” ride without any undies on. :clap:

[TZ350]

I'd be willing to bet my entire personal fortune - and I own assets to the value of almost sixteen dollars - that it turns out the simplest way to make a two stroke easy to start and run well over a wide rpm range, both on and off the pipe is some sort of inlet valving...

I very much expect you are right.

Some time ago I was plagued by a bad resonance hole and blow back through the carb. I tried some experiments to see what could be done to eliminate it.

My first effort was to close the inlet valve earlier. I originally started with the inlet closing at 80 deg ATDC and closed it earlier and earlier. Eventually I got down to 25 deg ATDC. 25 reduced the symptoms but did not eliminate them and 25 is ridiculously short and badly hurts power so no use at all.

332216 332217

The next move was to try a longer inlet tract. Adding the extra length worked much better than closing the inlet at 25 deg ATDC and the longer tract basicaly eliminated the blow back issue. But the plenum idea had other problems like fuel dropout upsetting the mixture, hence the interest in EFI.

332218 332219

Later, with a carburetor I tried dividing the inlet tract in half with a butter fly at the carb end. The idea was to close half the tract off so as to keep the mixtures velocity up and use its inertia to ram the 6,500 rpm resonance hole and blow back out of existence. Then open the whole inlet area up for top end power.

332223

The idea worked pretty well on the dyno. Blue line is the valve closed. Red line is the full inlet tract area. Unfortunately the arrangement made for an impractically wide engine with the carb sticking way out in the breeze.

332224

But I could put an inlet divider (or two) behind the EFI Ball Valve throttle body with a servo powered automatic stop that prevents the valve opening more than required for the current RPM.

Two dividers would give three basic inlet areas. That way we may be able to have a series of inlet ramming resonant steps that more closely match the stuffing requirements of the crankcase over the full rev range.

Who knows, if we get it right we may not need the rotary valve disk at all.

[husaberg]

Why Epic .... well intuitively I have always thought you needed some sort of inlet valve timing control to make a two stroke engine work properly. My guess is most people think so too. It would be truly Epic and rather funny if we have all been clinging to a myth.
.

Running and starting whilst under little or no load is one thing, pulling itself into the powerband whilst under i would suggest is completely different.
In the case of Adgnes though he has a trick up his sleeve (so to speak) the CVT which might allow it to work as it might be able to stay withing its resonant sped.
Case in point, If the timing of the valve was not relevent then changing the timing of a disc valve would have little effect on the spread of power, yet we all know it clearly does.

It did get we thinking though a spring loaded flapper valve in the inlet. might be a simple work arround.
much like this. with the cable only operating at 3/4 revs or higher and the light spring at low revs....
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachments/diy-turbo-discussion-14/150583d1442851590-my-3-custom-spring-loaded-flapper-valve-80-exhaust_ecv_957c0ab8803ae3563397be01aee7fe00d6d9ae c3.jpg

[TZ350]

Now that looks interesting, thanks.

[husaberg]

332234...............

[Pursang]

Valveless pumps are not unusual in other applications.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/WEBPOSTS/KIWI+ESE/valveless+pump.JPG

Optimisation of inlet, outlet & pumping actions can only help.

Cheers, Daryl.

[adegnes]

Did anyone say blowback?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnCO_CAaEgU

I will make up a bunch of different length carb spacers to see where that gets me.

[adegnes]

Frits, I assume you've done more research than most on the subject.
In theory could no valve be better than a properly tuned rotary valve for peak power and overrev?
On the fence here. Keep on without the valve or not? It's interesting, but so is further testing with the valve and methanol/nitro.

[SwePatrick]

I say buy a new valve and carry on hunting for power.
This valveless is just a wild goosechase.
That rejecting airmass you saw need you to get engine into tune before hitting throttle on dyno, in other words it will be really hard to get your roller start spinning.

And by that,, pre heat pipe and incoming air in carb to about 450degree to get the pulsjet going in pipe then start engine ;)

Sounds to me it is a lot of work to be done just to get the moped rolling after been to the walmart for beers ;)

[breezy]

I will make up a bunch of different length carb spacers to see where that gets me.[/QUOTE]

well you gave it a try:2thumbsup, i dare say you could play around with spacers and get it to run half decent but maybe it wouldnt be an improvement over the rotary valve. i suppose at the end of the day its how much time you feel you can invest in carrying on, which will decide if you continue. good video again :clap:

[Haufen]

On the fence here. Keep on without the valve or not? It's interesting, but so is further testing with the valve and methanol/nitro.

Well, as you have come this far by now, why not try to do some dyno runs? You could use your starting aid to get the engine into the powerband on the roller and then remove it once you've reached a certain rpm. If this works, then proceed with some main jet changes. Do you have a solid baseline with the disc to compare your results to?

If it is not going to work then you could also approach from the other side, by constantly elongating the timing on the disc well beyond what's normally used.

[F5 Dave]

Did anyone say blowback?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnCO_CAaEgU

I will make up a bunch of different length carb spacers to see where that gets me.
Pah! You're still using a carb? Get outta here grandad. The scooter kids are clearly the real trail blazers. Next attempt; no head fitted. :banana:

[adegnes]

Pah! You're still using a carb? Get outta here grandad. The scooter kids are clearly the real trail blazers. Next attempt; no head fitted. :banana:

If I inject fuel directly into the EGT fitting maybe I can get the pipe to work as a scramjet. Could do away with the whole bike and just ride the pipe. Would need a serious slingshot to get it into the "powerband".

But seriously.
I'll play around with intake length and jetting. If it doesn't lead me anywhere I'll put it on ice for a while and get that replacement valve.

The charge is pushed out of the carb with quite some force.
First this had me thinking that in no way will I be able to "stop" it with just a longer intake.
But thinking about it now, charge going in the right direction is probably pushed in with similar force.
Maybe there's not that much required to "tip the scale"?
I mean all I need is to stall the outgoing charge, not reverse it.

[oldjohnno]

I guess it might be possible to use an intake tract long enough and small enough to let the engine pull itself onto the pipe. But then it'd lose a lot of power when it was on the pipe..

I can't help thinking the whole diskless thing is a solution to a non-existent problem. Sure, a reed valve is obstructive but I'm not convinced there's much to be gained by deleting the disk. Maybe with enough work a no-disk engine could be usable but I suspect it would remain compromised, and the necessary kludges to make it work could well be more complex than the disk itself.

[JanBros]

I
I mean all I need is to stall the outgoing charge, not reverse it.

maybe fit a rotating disk with a cut-out between the carb and that big hole ?

I guess that would stall the outgoing charge :whistle::innocent:

[WilDun]

If you really want to know the answer to what is happening, ask Jan (I'm sure he has tried everything - and he isn't saying much) but then, that would spoil all the fun of finding out! If you just want to fool around with different possibilities, then carry on I reckon.
(BTW I like to try everything - well, I did a long time ago,- it didn't get me far, but it was a very enjoyable pastime).
I do like your enthusiasm and videos!
:niceone:

[Nath88]

If I inject fuel directly into the EGT fitting maybe I can get the pipe to work as a scramjet. Could do away with the whole bike and just ride the pipe. Would need a serious slingshot to get it into the "powerband".

But seriously.
I'll play around with intake length and jetting. If it doesn't lead me anywhere I'll put it on ice for a while and get that replacement valve.

The charge is pushed out of the carb with quite some force.
First this had me thinking that in no way will I be able to "stop" it with just a longer intake.
But thinking about it now, charge going in the right direction is probably pushed in with similar force.
Maybe there's not that much required to "tip the scale"?
I mean all I need is to stall the outgoing charge, not reverse it.

Wacky idea but hear me out, what if you put a cone that expands outward from the carburettor so the air/fuel escaping the carb is pulled out even more, then attach another cone to the first cone, but the other way around, to 'bounce' the air/fuel back into the carb? Perhaps make it from plastic, variable length. You might need to lean the carb out a lot, since the air will be travelling through it many times.
I made a rudimentary drawing.
332239

[Flettner]

Mazda HCCI

https://youtu.be/WBkfOUaEcWM

[sidecar bob]

maybe fit a rotating disk with a cut-out between the carb and that big hole ?

I guess that would stall the outgoing charge :whistle::innocent:

You could drive it off the end of the crankshaft & experiment with the cut out timing to gain peak performance!!!:2thumbsup

[peewee]

heres a oil question. i had been using 6% oil in methanol and decided to try 9%. i didnt notice the engine run any better or worse so i thought of trying 12% next time. if nothing else maybe the bearing and cylinder bore might last a bit longer. what do you guys think of this idea ?

[crbbt]

maybe the answer lies in the valveless pulse jet's "inlet"
sorta getting back to the origins of the expansion chamber here :lol:

or a tesla valve on the inlet

This might be making the motor increasingly a single speed motor however

I was really hoping this would work. maybe with a secondary, electronic throttle slide or something like Flettner's variable timing slide.

[F5 Dave]

Wacky idea but hear me out, what if you put a cone that expands outward from the carburettor so the air/fuel escaping the carb is pulled out even more, then attach another cone to the first cone, but the other way around, to 'bounce' the air/fuel back into the carb? Perhaps make it from plastic, variable length. You might need to lean the carb out a lot, since the air will be travelling through it many times.
I made a rudimentary drawing.
332239

No. No. I like it.
Then maybe fit a sparkplug that goes every 5 seconds to reduce the surprise of the inevitable :clap:

[Grumph]

heres a oil question. i had been using 6% oil in methanol and decided to try 9%. i didnt notice the engine run any better or worse so i thought of trying 12% next time. if nothing else maybe the bearing and cylinder bore might last a bit longer. what do you guys think of this idea ?

What oil, and are you dissolving it in a solvent before adding it to the methanol ?

[tjbw]

Mazda HCCI

https://youtu.be/WBkfOUaEcWM

Another video about the Maxda HCCI engine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhzMGbQXmY

[peewee]

What oil, and are you dissolving it in a solvent before adding it to the methanol ?

klotz benol 100% castor and klotz super techniplate which is 80% synthetic-20% castor. they are intended for petrol, methanol, nitro methane. they can be mixed to atleast 18% oil content when used in methanol or nitro. im pretty sure the super techniplate is what some rc fuel manufacturers like VP are using, although the msds sheet doesnt say specific name brands. it dissolves just fine but beyond 18% i think it gets to viscous and some kind of thinner oil is used, thats my understanding anyway. i just figured with the corrosiveness of methanol and nitro why not use more oil if the internal components last longer.

[Nath88]

No. No. I like it.
Then maybe fit a sparkplug that goes every 5 seconds to reduce the surprise of the inevitable :clap:

Fire on both sides of the piston = more power?

Maybe put the carb on the inlet end of the theoretical chamber so it's not so fuelly.

[2T Institute]

Not on our kart tracks. A Suzuki RG with std parts will fail if shown much over 13000. But clearly better parts will extend things considerably.

17? Heck that's well out of my experience but I built way too conservative. Blowdown for those revs would be hard to get close to ideal.

Most are turning those sort of rpm in the 50cc race in Europe. Fit a larger rear sprocket ;)

[husaberg]

If it doesn't lead me anywhere I'll put it on ice for a while and get that replacement valve.
.
Skill saw blade........

maybe fit a rotating disk with a cut-out between the carb and that big hole ?
I guess that would stall the outgoing charge :whistle::innocent:

You could drive it off the end of the crankshaft & experiment with the cut out timing to gain peak performance!!!:2thumbsup
Seems a little bit boring..........

[SwePatrick]

heres a oil question. i had been using 6% oil in methanol and decided to try 9%. i didnt notice the engine run any better or worse so i thought of trying 12% next time. if nothing else maybe the bearing and cylinder bore might last a bit longer. what do you guys think of this idea ?

Why?
I run 3% and all is fine.

I run Shell Advance Racing M, no need to mix up with a blending agent.
Just mix methanol and racing m to desired percentage and you´re fine.

I tried 4% first when engine was new,, and it all became a fat oily mess everywhere.

[Grumph]

klotz benol 100% castor and klotz super techniplate which is 80% synthetic-20% castor. they are intended for petrol, methanol, nitro methane. they can be mixed to atleast 18% oil content when used in methanol or nitro. im pretty sure the super techniplate is what some rc fuel manufacturers like VP are using, although the msds sheet doesnt say specific name brands. it dissolves just fine but beyond 18% i think it gets to viscous and some kind of thinner oil is used, thats my understanding anyway. i just figured with the corrosiveness of methanol and nitro why not use more oil if the internal components last longer.

I have no experience with those oils so can't comment. But the "corrosiveness" of methanol is simply because it's hygroscopic - and the water it captures condenses and promotes corrosion. I have painful memories of several seasons of washing banks of carbs in petrol after every days racing. And the speedway car guys would give me their carbs which by then were pretty much a solid block of white corrosion...
I'd probably try spraying something like WD40 into a wide open carb while turning the motor over - best while it's still warm.
The carb of course should be washed every time...

[teriks]

Why?
I run 3% and all is fine.

I run Shell Advance Racing M, no need to mix up with a blending agent.
Just mix methanol and racing m to desired percentage and you´re fine.

I tried 4% first when engine was new,, and it all became a fat oily mess everywhere.
While anicient, I like to think there's still some merit in the tests of Jennings from way back in time.

http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf

All in all, more oil - more power.

Now, the physics haven't changed, but for sure cooling, manufacturing tolerances, materials and oils so those results might be completely irrelevant for the racing two strokes of today.

Personally I have no need to experiment with oil since we are required to run a standard fuel, 80%methanol, 20%(!) castor oil. Also the application is quite different from anything used in motorcycles given the ring-less pistons etc. Still interested in some modern take on the subject. :)

[Lightbulb]

I think Frits mentioned these way back in this thread. But for Adegnes engine, maybe a form of Tesla valve may help to reduce the negative pulse, and along with it, increase the induction length.
Neil

[SwePatrick]

Tesla valves is crap!

To get enough area for flow to make power, it doesn´t restrict any good any more.
And, on lower rpms, with small throttleopenings the air density is so low in crankhouse that it doesn´t restrict at all.

Forget that mumbo jumbo.

[Pursang]

Valveless pumps are not unusual in other applications.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/WEBPOSTS/KIWI+ESE/valveless+pump.JPG

I thought I posted this earlier....but ???

Flow will take the less restricting option..... Bernoulli told lies!!!

cheers, Daryl

[Haufen]

Tesla valves is crap!

To get enough area for flow to make power, it doesn´t restrict any good any more.
And, on lower rpms, with small throttleopenings the air density is so low in crankhouse that it doesn´t restrict at all.

Forget that mumbo jumbo.

Is that an assumption of yours, or is it based on hard facts like testing and / or simulations?

[oldjohnno]

It's amusing that the devices being considered to replace a disc valve that's simple, compact, positive and non-disruptive to flow have few if any of those attributes...

[136kg136ps]

I recall I had an older engine I had with no RV or reed.They called it a piston port.

There may be some "magic" AKA law of physics which necessitates a valve of some kind at specific frequencies to initiate or control a resonance in the inlet tract beneficial at those frequencies.:innocent:
In any case, it seems there is more power to be made or lost on the exhaust side of the equations, it has got my attention until I figure I have it optimized.
That exhaust control valve looks a great start for an ATAC.

[SwePatrick]

Is that an assumption of yours, or is it based on hard facts like testing and / or simulations?

A blend of both worlds.
Been tuning engines for 33years now, that gives me a good solid common sense ;)
A couple of friends have simulated and tested it on a twostroke, result?
It ran crap!

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, I assume you've done more research than most on the subject. In theory could no valve be better than a properly tuned rotary valve for peak power and overrev?The advantages of a 24/7 inlet are an unrestricted mixture flow with better symmetry than a sidemounted rotary valve and minus the friction of that rotary valve.
A 24/7 inlet is no use at all below the power band, as you have already found out. But in the power band it can give good cylinder filling, and power in the overrev tends to be better than in the case of a rotary valve, unless you do a Flettner with variable rotary valve timing on the fly, but controlling that will definitely be more complicated than controlling a 24/7 valve. By the way, starting a 24/7 engine without any starting valve at all may be a pain; you've found that out as well.
That is why I designed it with a simple reed that swings out of the way, once the engines runs in the power band.
Experimenting with different inlet tract lengths is the way to go. In theory you could also experiment with different carb diameters and different crankcase volumes,
but changing a length piece is a lot simpler.

[peewee]

I have no experience with those oils so can't comment. But the "corrosiveness" of methanol is simply because it's hygroscopic - and the water it captures condenses and promotes corrosion. I have painful memories of several seasons of washing banks of carbs in petrol after every days racing. And the speedway car guys would give me their carbs which by then were pretty much a solid block of white corrosion...
I'd probably try spraying something like WD40 into a wide open carb while turning the motor over - best while it's still warm.
The carb of course should be washed every time...

i flush the engine and carb with petrol premix at the days end. no problems so far. i bet the reason some rc fuel uses 18% - 23% oil content is to maybe reduce the nitric acid accumulation inside the engine. thats the only thing i could think of

[breezy]

While anicient, I like to think there's still some merit in the tests of Jennings from way back in time.

http://www.bridgestonemotorcycle.com/documents/oilpremix6.pdf

All in all, more oil - more power.

Now, the physics haven't changed, but for sure cooling, manufacturing tolerances, materials and oils so those results might be completely irrelevant for the racing two strokes of today.

Personally I have no need to experiment with oil since we are required to run a standard fuel, 80%methanol, 20%(!) castor oil. Also the application is quite different from anything used in motorcycles given the ring-less pistons etc. Still interested in some modern take on the subject. :)

i would think that if the lubrication of the cylinder/piston was applied in another way and not have to deal with being contained in the fuel mixture and subjected to the heat caused by the combustion process, that the engine power would increase. more oil, less friction, less stress on the oil to lubricate without oiling up the plug.