ESE's works engine tuner

[J.A.W.]

Hello J.A.W.

You write:
“It was Bristol who really put sleeves on the map... Bristol ran one of their 6.5in sleeves up to 8,000rev/min
in a single-cylinder test engine without anything going awry,”

I suppose the Bristol single-cylinder was a 4-stroke.

In a 2-stroke sleeve-valve single-cylinder things are tougher because the inertia vibrations increase a lot.

The sleeve valve has a smaller, than the piston, stroke (say 40%) but it cannot help being heavy.
The sleeve valve reciprocates, more or less, in phase with the piston (in the animation, and in the “exe” program, the auxiliary crankpins are advances by only 10 degrees relative to the main crankpin; the resulting asymmetry between the transfer and exhaust is more than necessary).

Provided the balance webs of the crankshaft are optimized in each case,
when a conventional 2-stroke single-cylinder is modified to “sleeve-valve”, the vibrations will increase a lot.
It would be like replacing the piston of the original conventional by a two times heavier one.

A 2-stoke sleeve-valve needs a substantially longer stroke than a conventional 2-stroke (uniflow scavenging and short stroke do not fit), making things even tougher.

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos


Actually Manolis, most current high performance 2-strokes are close to 'square' bore & stroke-wise,
unless they are either overbored, or stroked - as increased capacity variants of existing engines..

The Bristol aero-engines were undersquare, like the R-R Crecy, but the Napier Sabre was oversquare,
& it was intended by design - to be capable of running as a 2-stroke..

I expect that current metallugical design techniques could produce a functional sleeve valve unit..
there must be a reason why the FIA banned them for F1..

[husaberg]

After a bit of help from Hasaberg I found a YZ250 rod was only 2 mm shorter than the Macio. The big end width is 20 on the YZ and 17 on the Maico. Is bigger better ? The YZ is supposed to be 48 HP.

I received my New ProX rod but there is quite a big difference in the wall thickness between the 2.



Is this an issue? I would have thought from a dynamic point of view the lighter the bigend the less the load on the pins however it makes it not quite as strong. However, the main strength will be required in compression which is the same for both rods.

I have put down the bigend failure to the oil slots not being radiused and hence they picked up on the rollers.

Lastly, what piston/crankshaft balance ratio is suggested and what to you normally weigh to make the bob weight?

Cheers Wallace.
Post a pic of your crank webs.
if the crank webs are pork-chopped balanced and or shrouded or semi shrouded you can gain some better cooling for the big end with a narrower rod and more HP as there is less resistance to flow.
Conversely the crankshaft can be stronger with a narrower rod. as the big end can have a longer areas supported. It's a compromise. You could machine the crank to suit the piston and then use off the shelf conrods forever or mod the rod each time.
Personally I would plumb for the one where you have the better available Flat bearing cadge that is suited for higher revs.
I will add some pics latter.
This is the best HP set up. Courtesy of Robs Gp125 set up.
Robs is balanced with Aluminium plugs holes the Aprilia is balanced with tungsten.
I don't know for sure if a solid ended big end is better but I would suggest solid or plugged like a Four stroke Honda. judging by the Aprilia pics
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Good point, Dave; in fact several good points.
Most of the volume is concentrated in the transfer ducts. Then there is the volume inside the piston of course, and the 1 mm shear-avoiding clearance at all surfaces of the crank.
But that is not nearly enough volume. If you take another look at the Aprilia crank below left, you will notice that the space between the crank webs is the same as the space needed for the big end bearing. In other words: the crank webs have flat insides, good for another 60 cc or so, if I remember correctly.
Additional benefits: the con rod has an easier time pushing the mixture aside as it moves between the webs, and the big end bearing gets a lot more cooling and lubrication because it is not shrouded in any way.
Because there are no overhung bobweights, the crank webs are stuffed with tungsten to get the balance factor right.
In the RSA125, the con rod was lengthened from the RSW's 115 mm to 120 mm to create even more crankcase volume.

The paddling is a mixed blessing; it creates aerodynamical drag but it also greatly improves the homogenity of the mixture.
Smooth, full-circle crank webs have the advantage that there is little mixture hiding in nooks and crannies. An example of it's importance: in a certain engine there were 20 mm spaces between the crankshaft bearings and the seals. these ill-accessible volumes acted as pneumatic dampers on the crankcase pressure fluctuation. Filling those volumes with plastic bushes gave a measurable improvement.

Summary: you need a large crankcase volume. Ideally all of this volume should be situated in the transfer ducts. In real life you will also need to lodge part of this volume between crankshaft and piston, i.e: use a long con rod. Avoid nooks and crannies. Crankshafts should be small and smooth. Big end bearings must never be shrouded by recesses in the crank webs or by stuffers.

The picture right below shows, wait for it, an RSA125-crank with stuffers...
After Jan Thiel went into retirement in 2008, some geniuses at the factory grabbed their chance to 'correct' the errors that Jan left behind, without even testing the result because 'everybody knows the smaller the crankcase volume the better'. But they never could understand why a 2011 RSA125 was slower than a 2007 model (just look at the 125 cc top speeds on any GP-track). O, the joy of working with Italians.....
315340315339

They can't have been Aprilia racing cranks then, as these have no holes at all, just a lot of slugs. But some are tungsten, some are very light.
The color difference in the picture below shows the asymmetrical distribution of light and heavy slugs. This is a give-away that these are crankshafts from the 90°-twin engine; their balance mass center of gravity has a 45° offset whereas the crankshafts of the Aprilia singles have no balance mass offset.

You (not you, Wobbly) may also wonder why there are so many slugs; couldn't it have been done with a much smaller number? Yes, but the large number serves a second purpose, apart from balancing. Putting light slugs near the center and heavy slugs near the circumference of the crank webs increases the crankshaft inertia without increasing its weight.
310031



Also if i can be so bold i was looking at a pic of a RSW or RSA crank the other day and it seemed to have what looked like Brass rings around the Crankpin pressed in the crankcheeks?
Is that what they are? and why are they there?
315351

.Yes, that is what they are (well, not brass but bronze) and they are there to reduce axial friction between the con rod and the crank webs.


Amazing Frits how complex logic can get, and more amazing that in reality its all simple when you finally get to understand.
Of course Lambda only reads the O2, what a dumb shit.

Anyway more importantly I have now for the first time seen the inside face of an Aprilia crank.
Apart from the bronze ring ( does that replace a silver plated washer ? ) I now see a huge amount of inserts in the crank face.
These you dont see in the many pics that show a ton of what is obviously Mallory around the circumference increasing the rotational inertia.
I assume the inserts on the inside are filled with lighter material ? in the pic I cant tell if its alloy or even more Mallory heavy metal.


This was discussed on the Aprilia FB page Wob, not sure if it was Jan or Thijs that said it was tungsten with a magnesium cap. Thrusts are still there.


Its something that has been revolving in my mind as they are cracked... they seem to be actually pressed in the full distance of the pin rather than a thrust washer insert replacement? there def seems to be an full insert (steel looking inner one at that on the left side picture)



The bronze rings are only about 2 mm thick. Their advantage over the usual thrust washers is that they can get rid of friction heat easier and won't vibrate themselves to pieces.
The combination of Mallory slugs and hollow light-alloy caps serves to combine a low total mass of the cranks with a high inertia that made the 250 cc twins more rideable. The same setup was used for the 125 singles, but as Jan Thiel said: 'In seven years of experimenting we have not been able to establish what is best: high or low inertia'.
My approach: when in doubt, choose low; it will be a blessing for the transmission and the rear tire.

[Flettner]

Manolis, how does your rotary valve head seal?

[Frits Overmars]

Its a well proven fact that reving a race engine to just past it power peak, so that you drop back closest to peak torque thru every gear change is by far the fastest technique.That is a good approach. However, theoretically the object is not to drop back closest to peak torque through every gear change, but to change gear at the rpm where the power before the gear change and the power after the gear change are equal. Or to express this graphically: where the current gear's rear wheel thrust curve intersects the next gear's thrust curve. Remember: power is not only torque x revs, it is also force x velocity.

The graph below shows the acceleration of an Aprilia RSA125 over a distance of 800 m from an initial speed of 50 kmh. The Y-axis scale is determined by the grip coefficient of the tire.
In first gear the clutch is slipped at 12517 rpm which is the rpm of maximum torque. By the way, slipping the clutch will be favourable each time the revs drop below max.torque-rpm after a gear change, provided the clutch can take the heat and the rider can spare the concentration. But with a racing gearbox this won't be necessary after first gear.

In both the graph and the numeric picture you may notice that in the higher gears the engine is revved a little bit beyond the intersection point, as a compensation for the loss of velocity due to the air resistance because of the power interruption during the gear change. You'll notice this loss between the final velocity in a gear and the initial velocity in the next gear.
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[marsheng]

The thickness of the boss is 4 mm so taking off 1.5 mm on each side will be easy.

http://www.marshland.co.nz/ftp/MaicoBimota/Crankshaft.JPG

[manolis]

Hello Uniflow

You write:
“Manolis, how does your rotary valve head seal?”

No sealing means are used in the first PatRoVa prototype .

The clearance between the inner flat fronts of the rotary valve and its mate flat lips (on the external side of the combustion chamber) is quite small.

The material used in the prototype of the video is graphite iron (for both parts: the rotary valve and the cylinder head).
With DLC coating it would be better (long term reliability).

The “Sealing” paragraph at http://www.pattakon.com/pattakonPatRoVa.htm explains it better.

In a 2-stroke things seem even easier because the mixture has oil droplets (an oiled screw compressor is capable for way higher compression than a dry screw compressor).

Thanks
Manolis Pattakos

[ken seeber]

315368

Well, things are happening here:
• cylinder is almost finished
• got some more profiling to do on the spacer plate, unfortunately vertical machining centre is tied up at present
• piston and bits are nearly ready
• Schenck eddy current dyno in place
• fuel flow meter, HC and NOx analysers coming next week

Just waiting on the final details from Harry.

Come on Harry, we’ve been waiting for ages :yawn: Promise we won't tell anyone :laugh:

[peewee]

In both the graph and the numeric picture you may notice that in the higher gears the engine is revved a little bit beyond the intersection point, as a compensation for the loss of velocity due to the air resistance because of the power interruption during the gear change.

frits i use this same technique in my pickup especially with a strong head wind and to make matters worse it has 24/7 fwd so the front axle is always turning, causing a big momentum lose each gear change :laugh:

[peewee]

315368

:


after seeing that pic it makes perfect sense why engmod keeps telling me every one of my cylinders has far to small of inlets. that inlet looks bigger than the bore :shit:

[husaberg]

after seeing that pic it makes perfect sense why engmod keeps telling me every one of my cylinders has far to small of inlets. that inlet looks bigger than the bore :shit:

What does it say about your carb size being far smaller the 70% of your bore.


The thickness of the boss is 4 mm so taking off 1.5 mm on each side will be easy.

I added in some other stuff to my reply above Wallace. Note the inserts and clean inner wheels. Order a billet of EN30 or 4330 and slap it in the CNC.
You know you want to.
I can't remember what Neil Uses?



Been back to ESE head quarters this evening to balance my crankshaft. TeeZee set me up with some scales, some welding wire and a pile of washers. First up the rod, piston, pin and small end were weighed giving us a total of, I think 232gms, TZ works on the 50% theory so the wire and washers were weighed accordingly and hung off the end of the rod, this was then placed on the very technical looking balancing device where it was found to be PBC, the fly wheel was drilled in four places to get the correct balance.
Before all this we put it in the lathe and using a dial gauge we checked that it was running true, not too bad just a light tap with the truing device and we were happy.
Thanks to Tee Zee and Culley for their time.


Let me start by complimenting you on a very clear description plus illustration of the balancing act. But you should not have drilled those holes where you did. As a rule of thumb, a good press fit requires that a big end pin hole should be surrounded by at least half its diameter in material. So for a 20 mm pin there should be at least 10 mm of crank web material everywhere around the hole. As you can see, the large original balancing holes already intrude into this zone, and with the small holes you added there will be little stiffness left.
Removing material in the blue circles would have been a safer approach, although it might not haved raised the balance factor sufficiently.
The best way would be to remove material from the inside faces of the crank webs, around the big end recesses. That would have two additional benefits: it would improve lubrication and cooling of the big end bearing and it would enlarge the crankcase volume.
Now that I am grumbling anyway: big end pins should be massive. The large void in the pictured pin is not exactly promoting a good press fit.


My pleasure Martin. Take a look at the above picture. Jot down the scales' reading, remove the piston from the con rod, let the con rod rest on the scales again and add a wire hook and a collection of nuts or washers to the scales until the reading is what you want it to be (50% of the original weight in the above example).
Attach the wire hook with the nuts to the con rod's small end and let the crankshaft rest on two beams, like in the picture below. First make sure that the beams are exactly horizontal by putting a piece of tubing (or a bottle) on them and adjusting their heights until the tube does not want to roll any more.
309191

Now if we put the crankshaft on the beams, it will probably roll until the bob-weights are either at the highest or at the lowest point, in which case we will have to add or otherwise remove material from the bob-weights.
Let's assume that the bob-weights move to the lowest point. Then we add extra weight (some more nuts or washers) to the wire hook until the crankshaft will stay in any position on the beams without a tendency to turn. We have now created the torque that is necessary to keep the crankshaft in equilibrium.

Example: We have an engine with a stroke of 54,5 mm. And we had to attach 80 grams of extra weight to the hook in order to reach equilibrium.
This weight acts via the con rod on the crank pin radius (half the engine stroke), so it generates a torque of 80 * (54,5 / 2) = 80 * 27,25 = 2180 gram*mm.

The bob-weights had a tendency to move to the lowest point, indicating that they are too heavy, so we have to drill holes in them.
The total mass of these holes, multiplied by the distance from the holes' centers to the crankshaft center line, also generates a torque.
Let's assume that we can drill a hole in each bob-weight sidewall, opposite the crank pin, with its center 35 mm away from the crankshaft center line.
In order to generate the same 2180 g.mm torque, the total mass from these holes must be 2180 / 35 = 62,28 gram.

One hole in each bob-weight, that's two holes in total. One hole should then equal 62,28 / 2 = 31,14 gram.
The specific mass of steel is 0,00785 gram / mm³, so the volume of each hole must be 31,14 / 0,00785 = 3967 mm³.
Let's assume that each bob-weight has a thickness of 20 mm. That is how deep we can drill (through and through).
Then the cross-section area of each hole must be 3967 / 20 = 198,35 mm².
Its diameter must then be SQRT (198,35 / (pi/4) ) = SQRT ( 198,35 / 0,7854 ) = SQRT (252,55) = 15,9 mm.

Obviously the further away from the crankshaft center line you can drill these holes, the smaller they need to be.

Piece of cake, isn't it?

Now how about that teaser? Any takers?


Very nicely illustrated. I would have used those pics if I'd had them :yes:.

[Sketchy_Racer]

That is a good approach. However, theoretically the object is not to drop back closest to peak torque through every gear change, but to change gear at the rpm where the power before the gear change and the power after the gear change are equal. Or to express this graphically: where the current gear's rear wheel thrust curve intersects the next gear's thrust curve. Remember: power is not only torque x revs, it is also force x velocity.

The graph below shows the acceleration of an Aprilia RSA125 over a distance of 800 m from an initial speed of 50 kmh. The Y-axis scale is determined by the grip coefficient of the tire.
In first gear the clutch is slipped at 12517 rpm which is the rpm of maximum torque. By the way, slipping the clutch will be favourable each time the revs drop below max.torque-rpm after a gear change, provided the clutch can take the heat and the rider can spare the concentration. But with a racing gearbox this won't be necessary after first gear.

In both the graph and the numeric picture you may notice that in the higher gears the engine is revved a little bit beyond the intersection point, as a compensation for the loss of velocity due to the air resistance because of the power interruption during the gear change. You'll notice this loss between the final velocity in a gear and the initial velocity in the next gear.
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Hi Fritz,

Thanks for that gem of information!

A quick question, do the GP bikes have shift lights that have different RPM settings for each gear to give the riders the optimal.

Interestingly, I did have a quick go at figuring out what would be the best RPM shift by finding the best polynomial curve fit to my power curve (ok at best but the limit of my math skills!) for the RPM range that I was interested in. By integrating that polynomial between the relevant limits (the sweep of RPM in a given gear) I then got the area under the curve for that range. I shifted this range of RPM values until I converged to a maximum area thus hopefully giving me the optimum sweep for that gear. Looking at it now it seems obvious that as you mentioned that if I shift where the where the power before and after the gear change are equal then that will be the same!

If I were to make a shift light that gave me unique shift RPM values for each gear that could be worth some free lap time!

[husaberg]

Hi Fritz,

Thanks for that gem of information!

A quick question, do the GP bikes have shift lights that have different RPM settings for each gear to give the riders the optimal.

Interestingly, I did have a quick go at figuring out what would be the best RPM shift by finding the best polynomial curve fit to my power curve (ok at best but the limit of my math skills!) for the RPM range that I was interested in. By integrating that polynomial between the relevant limits (the sweep of RPM in a given gear) I then got the area under the curve for that range. I shifted this range of RPM values until I converged to a maximum area thus hopefully giving me the optimum sweep for that gear. Looking at it now it seems obvious that as you mentioned that if I shift where the where the power before and after the gear change are equal then that will be the same!

If I were to make a shift light that gave me unique shift RPM values for each gear that could be worth some free lap time!

Remember those cascades charts the Japanese used to have in the road tests in the 70's as far as I know that's what they were for.

[Frits Overmars]

do the GP bikes have shift lights that have different RPM settings for each gear to give the riders the optimal.The two-strokes didn't. The current lawn mower class and the honda standard class, otherwise known as Moto3 and Moto2, probably won't; technical innovation seems to be a deadly sin there. MotoGP will probably have them.


By integrating that polynomial between the relevant limits (the sweep of RPM in a given gear) I then got the area under the curve for that range.Be careful with this area under the curve-approach, Sketchy. You may want to take a look at the power range concept:


http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130525788#post1130525788


http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130526279#post1130526279

[ken seeber]

The current lawn mower class and the honda standard class, otherwise known as Moto3 and Moto2, probably won't; technical innovation seems to be a deadly sin there. MotoGP will probably have them.

Frits, a few weeks ago, I thought of something along these lines. Probably dreaming though:


“While the initial & impact that the Ryger (and other new engine concepts) might have in karting is being considered, one might also expand this through to GP bikes.

Currently we have the combined result of Honda and Dorna, giving us Moto3, Moto2 and MotoGP, all 4 strokes. Looking simplistically at the 3 classes, particularly with respect to the engines:

Moto3. Constraining overall limitations on capacity, bore, max revs, pricing and changes
Moto2. Sealed CBR600 engine, no touchies
MotoGP. This is split into two main classes, with the short term intention to achieve some form of time parity, but with the long term intention to phase out the difference so that only a single set of rules would apply:
• Factory bikes: capacity maximum, ability to control ECU software, # engines and 20 litre fuel allowance
• Open bikes: more engines, tyres, limited ECU access, 22 litre fuel allowance
There are tech developments from the MotoGP class which do rub off to road bikes, which must be seen as a good thing. One big one being fuel consumption, hence consequentially CO2 emissions, the latter being the world index criteria of energy usage.

I see the Moto3 class as being ripe for absorbing and demonstrating alternative technical opportunities. Thinking about the Ryger, other 2T and alternative performance opportunities, wouldn’t it be good to be able to demonstrate these in the world arena somehow, perhaps for the betterment of the world.

How could this work?

Initially I considered that, instead of contracting teams for a whole season, just set the max number of bikes on the track. Qualifying times determine who could start. However, this probably would have a negative effect on sponsorship, who would want to sponsor a team that doesn’t make the grade.

So, instead of this and taking into account the current contracted 34 bikes, say reduce this to 30 bikes that must conform to current M3 rules. Then allow the remaining 4 places open to:
a. Fledgling new technology bikes that choose to enter, subject to meeting some minimum qualifying time. No-one wants to see the class become a circus.
b. Any other wildcard M3 bike, should the above 4 places not be taken up by new technology bikes
However, only the four fastest of the a. & b. bikes can be eligible to race.

Overriding all this though, would be a maximum class fuel allowance, say 12 litres, to pick a random figure. If this can be controlled in MotoGP, then surely it could be repeated in other classes. This would clearly mean performance in conjunction with fuel consumption and, therefore, CO2 emissions.

Depending on the success of this, the percentage of new technology bikes could be gradually increased."

Not too sure how one could ever advance such a proposal. I would imagine a brick wall if approaching Dorna directly. Maybe through influential and hopefully sympathetic journalists, say Alan Cathcart, Michael Scott to name a couple. Could be heaps more over the world in many countries

[Frits Overmars]

... a maximum class fuel allowance, say 12 litres, to pick a random figure. If this can be controlled in MotoGP, then surely it could be repeated in other classes. This would clearly mean performance in conjunction with fuel consumption and, therefore, CO2 emissions.In principle I'm all for it, always have been. In practice, starving a two-stroke engine of fuel could hurt its rider and others. So, as there is a fairly tight relation between power and air/fuel ratio, I chose to control the inlet diameter instead. It works fine for the Dutch 50 cc SOBW races. And I'd like to see Dorna apply this approach too (the 125 cc 70 hp Ryger breathes through a 30 mm carb. Oh, the joy of seeing a small two-stroke single wipe the floor with those 600 cc four cylinder Moto2 Hondas).


Not too sure how one could ever advance such a proposal. I would imagine a brick wall if approaching Dorna directly. Maybe through influential and hopefully sympathetic journalists, say Alan Cathcart, Michael Scott to name a couple. Could be heaps more over the world in many countriesYou're damn right about the brick wall. In my opinion Dorna already lost control when they had to issue new MotoGP rules almost weekly, so they will certainly not welcome any outside interference.
As for influential journalists: I don't think there are any. They may well influence the opinion of their readers, but this will hardly have an impact on TV cash flow, which is the only thing Dorna is interested in.

[136kg136ps]

Dorna seems to have a more than passing interest in honda's well being as well.

[speedpro]

it seems obvious that as you mentioned that if I shift where the where the power before and after the gear change are equal then that will be the same!


assuming symmetry pre and post peak

[jonny quest]

What I don't get is four strokes use to be able to race with 2 strokes. Why can't 2 strokes race with 4 strokes now?

[Ocean1]

In both the graph and the numeric picture you may notice that in the higher gears the engine is revved a little bit beyond the intersection point, as a compensation for the loss of velocity due to the air resistance because of the power interruption during the gear change.

And not to compensate for the higher leverage in the lower gear?

Or is that value included in the "total resistance" figure?

[Frits Overmars]

And not to compensate for the higher leverage in the lower gear?
Remember: power is not only torque x revs, it is also force x velocity.Leverage does not need to come into the equation. If you have a given amount of power at a given speed, this defines the rear wheel thrust, irrespective of the gear you're in.

[mr bucketracer]

What I don't get is four strokes use to be able to race with 2 strokes. Why can't 2 strokes race with 4 strokes now?4 strokes sound better:yes:

[JanBros]

about new technology bikes and open rules : a couple of years ago I had the idea of having just one single rule : only the amount of coolant would be limited. power means heat and coolant is used to keep heat under control. by limiting the allowed amount of coolant you indirectly also limit the amount of power.

where the power would come from is of anybody's choice. 2 or 4 strokes, diesels, electric motorcycles, turbines, you name it. capacitiy and fuel consumption/stored electric energy also free.

[F5 Dave]

Or a minimum level of alcohol the rider had to consume at the end of each lap. Finally the Irish and the Czechs could present world teams, but perhaps a cheeky Aussie would be in with a chance as as happened so many times before.

[Frits Overmars]

4 strokes sound better:yes:Really? Moto3 sounds like lawn mowers, Moto2 sounds like the bike from the kid at the end of the block (the kid thinks it's the other way around) and MotoGP sounds the same, just a bit louder and with a bit more revs.
In case you are referring to classic four-strokes: they sound better because of their megaphones. But I guess you never heard a two-stroke racer with megaphones.
Now there is a sound that would make the four-strokes crawl back into their caves. When the pre-war supercharged DKWs were racing at the Isle of Man, you could not only hear them anywhere on the 60 km long TT course, but even on the British mainland.
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[Frits Overmars]

about new technology bikes and open rules : a couple of years ago I had the idea of having just one single rule: only the amount of coolant would be limited. power means heat and coolant is used to keep heat under control. by limiting the allowed amount of coolant you indirectly also limit the amount of power.Engine cooling is not limited by the amount of coolant, Jan. Increasing the coolant circulation velocity will counteract a reduction of the amount.
But whatever the amount of coolant and its circulation speed, ultimately the heat has to be carried away by air. And how would you control the air flow through a radiator or through a set of cooling fins? It's not the air volume that you would need to control, but the air mass. Not so simple...


where the power would come from is of anybody's choice. 2 or 4 strokes, diesels, electric motorcycles, turbines, you name it.Agreed.


capacity and fuel consumption/stored electric energy also free.Nope; we need to stimulate fuel efficiency.

[jonny quest]

Best sound to me is a 2 stroke with a shorty silencer... but with minimal intake noise. Oh... and water cooled. Fins are too add to much unwanted noise too

[seattle smitty]

Megaphone fans:


http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=5329&stc=1&d=1121385721

http://www.boatracingfacts.com/forums/showthread.php?5600-Photos-Austin-s-F-Loopers&highight=looper+photos

http://www.google.com/search?q=quincy+looper+racing+engines&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAKQAUoA2oVChMlwdOz1tzYxwlVC6seCh1A-wJm&biw=1138&bih=530


(There are some You Tube videos, but the sound reproduction is lousy, and more often than not the amateur videography is so awful that it amazes me that the guy would post it at all. Inadequate sound reproduction has been the sad fact of life for movies of motor racing of many kinds for as long as I can remember, which is pretty long. But at least SOME few people know how to mount a camera and point it, pan with it, and zoom it. Not many boatracers' wives, though.)

[JanBros]

Engine cooling is not limited by the amount of coolant, Jan. Increasing the coolant circulation velocity will counteract a reduction of the amount.
But whatever the amount of coolant and its circulation speed, ultimately the heat has to be carried away by air. And how would you control the air flow through a radiator or through a set of cooling fins? It's not the air volume that you would need to control, but the air mass. Not so simple...


not that I would have thought my idea was perfect, I still stand by it in making a rulebook that's very open and still would keep power within limit's.

yes, air needs to cool the coolant, but making radiator's too big (to make them cool better) would result in too much air-resistance (drag). and by combining the rule of amount of coolant with a second rule (yes , I know solving each problem with another rule would eventualy result in the current rulebook :facepalm: ) ) that would determine the coolers themselves (actualy this secondary rule would be nescesary and include oil coolers, to stop manufacturers from using oil as extra cooling), it would be equal for everybody and every type of engine.
and if the engines become too powerful, simply reduce the amount of coolant/size of the radiator.

and if someone thinks air-cooling is the way to go, they'd be free from rules :headbang:

[WilDun]

But I guess you never heard a two-stroke racer with megaphones.
Now there is a sound that would make the four-strokes crawl back into their caves. When the pre-war DKWs were racing at the Isle of Man, you could not only hear them anywhere on the 60 km long TT course, but even on the British mainland.

Frits, have you ever heard the Norton rotary on full song? - ear damage territory!
I've never heard the DKW of course (much too young :laugh:).

[2T Institute]

Or a minimum level of alcohol the rider had to consume at the end of each lap. Finally the Irish and the Czechs could present world teams, but perhaps a cheeky Aussie would be in with a chance as as happened so many times before.

We'll distract ewe's :laugh:

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, have you ever heard the Norton rotary on full song? - ear damage territory!Yes, had the pleasure of hearing the rotary Nortons. But let me tell you about ear damage. Ages ago a Van Veen OCR 1000 Wankel engine was converted for dragracing. It was about twice the cylinder capacity of the Norton and it ran over 10.000 rpm, which raised the power from 100 to 180 hp.
Then it got a big blower, which added 'some' power and noise. Then it was fed something different from your regular pump fuel....
315427
http://www.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kreidlerdatabase.nl %2FAfbeeldingen%2FOCR%2FOCR_Sprinter_2.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kreidlerdatabase.nl%2F9 5000%2FOCR_Sprinter.html&h=492&w=800&tbnid=qeyxl-S-jw1yyM%3A&docid=YyYQPotwdq-PxM&hl=en&ei=sQXoVfu5Ksm2adC_lJgB&tbm=isch&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1475&page=1&start=0&ndsp=25&ved=0CDYQrQMwB2oVChMIu9aKh7raxwIVSVsaCh3QHwUT

Too bad I did not try to record the sound back then, but it probably would have killed the microphone. To make up for it, here's some more rotary music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go3Fgd1wgic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jAngoCbOMg

[J.A.W.]

Funny, but triple rotor wankel mills, & like 120`crank recips - have the most sonorous, musical note.. viz a V12 F1..

The Aprilia Cube 990/3 Moto GP bike had an incredible ( & SO - LOUD) howl..

As do big Kawasaki triples, with straight - unmuffled - stingers on 'em..

[speedpro]

The PPRE 6 rotor RX4 has a pleasant note as well.

[TZ350]

Thought I might try a few tools to see if the standard ports in a NSR250 MC21 cylinder were going to be any good for my NSR110cc water cooled project.

Started with the Porting Calculator:- http://www.porting-programs.com/

315450

By entering the dimensions from a 54x54 bore stroke NSR250 cylinder as a 54x48 bore stroke NSR110 with 115mm rod and fiddling with the deck height I could get the standard ports into a sensible place with reasonable blowdown. The NSR power valve will be a great help too.

315449

The EngMod2T STA's look good.

315451

The simulated graph does not quite live up to the predictions based on the STA's ..... :scratch:pipe probably.

But, still its good to see that I will be able to use a standard cylinder without modification just by spigotting the head into it. Pretty much what I hoped for and the Porting Calculator and EngMod2T confirmed it is possible.

[lodgernz]

Looks good Rob. What engine are you planning to mount the cylinder on? I think you've already told us but I can't find it.

[Muciek]

Looks good Rob. What engine are you planning to mount the cylinder on? I think you've already told us but I can't find it.


Since the advent of the 110cc 2T watercooled rule change, I have heard of at least three other 110's being built.

Here is the start of mine. 54mm bore x 48mm stroke for 109.9cc.

314428

Step 1, fit a 11.5mm spacer plate between the GP's cases so that I can run a six speed TS125ER gearbox and clutch instead of the GP's original five speed.

314429

Step 2, a 115mm conrod. The crank used to have a 19mm big end pin. But will now have a 22mm bigend offset 1mm to reduce the stroke to 48mm. And a Mallory metal counter weight plug.

314431

Step 3, 117mm Rotary Valve.

Custom inner RV plate with KE175 rotary valve cover.

314430

Step 4, Custom adapter plate for the rebored (renickosiled a while back) NSR cylinder.

314427

Lots of lovely yummy ports for the watercooled, power valved, never fade all day cylinder.

A totaly in the spirit 110cc H2O, not much to it realy.

And hopefully it won't be to hard to convert this lot to a Ryger engine later, so could this be the start of the first 40+ hp bucket engine....... :niceone:
Here You go.

I have a question unrelated to Rob engine. Could someone point me some directions what to do with frame (bracing) and suspension when bike starts to wobbly on the road under hard acceleration and after passing 115km/h it's dancing all around the lane? There are no free play in bushings in swing arm as they are new and front suspension was maintained (new oil , seals everything is within spec , forks are from GN250) wheels are new ones. Any info would be appreciated

Here is pic of the frame
315462

[Haufen]

Did you try different settings of tire pressure? I have made the experience, that this can influence the bikes behaviour quite a bit, especially when the rest of the bike is close to the limit.

[TZ350]

Since the advent of the 110cc 2T watercooled rule change, I have heard of at least three other 110's being built. Here is the start of mine. 54mm bore x 48mm stroke for 109.9cc.

Could this be the start of the first 40hp Bucket engine ...... :niceone:


Thought I might try a few tools to see if the standard ports in a NSR250 MC21 cylinder were going to be any good for my NSR110cc water cooled project.

The above links connect to the back story posts made so far.


Looks good Rob. What engine are you planning to mount the cylinder on? I think you've already told us but I can't find it.

315472 315471

Hi LodgerNZ, it is going on a Suzuki GP100 bottom end that is being widened with a 11.5mm splitter plate for a 6 speed TS gear cluster and fitted with a KE175 Rotary valve cover for a 118mm RV. The splitter plate will have provision for EFI fuel injectors.


315473

Having widened the cases I needed a longer bigend pin for a wider crank and found a 61mm Diesel gudgeon pin to replace the orginal 50mm one. The KE RV cover allows me to use a much larger RV than the original GP one. The bigend bearing is from an RGV250 and the 115mm center to center rod is from a Yamaha RD400.

[husaberg]

Here You go.

I have a question unrelated to Rob engine. Could someone point me some directions what to do with frame (bracing) and suspension when bike starts to wobbly on the road under hard acceleration and after passing 115km/h it's dancing all around the lane? There are no free play in bushings in swing arm as they are new and front suspension was maintained (new oil , seals everything is within spec , forks are from GN250) wheels are new ones. Any info would be appreciated

Here is pic of the frame


Weight distribution and steering head bearings plus rake and trail.
Having said that it appears weak between the backbone to the swingarm pivot and looks bloody heavy elsewhere. The support for the shocks are indirect also.
315475

[2T Institute]

By entering the dimensions from a 54x54 bore stroke NSR250 cylinder as a 54x48 bore stroke NSR110 with 115mm rod and fiddling with the deck height I could get the standard ports into a sensible place with reasonable blowdown. The NSR power valve will be a great help too.



reed engines don't need really long rods 54 stroke reed engine 110mm is perfect. No real advantages for going that long.

[FastFred]

reed engines don't need really long rods 54 stroke reed engine 110mm is perfect. No real advantages for going that long.

It is a NSR250 MC21 cylinder grafted onto a rotary valve Suzuki GP100 bottom end. The motor needs a long rod so as to be able to fit an adapter plate for mounting the cylinder.

From all accounts with the long rod and 12mm extra width in the cases and the old super large transfer ducts in the original GP cases this engine should be exploring the outer limits of of crankcase volume. Hopefully TeeZee will post the crankcase volume and CR figures.

Reed engines like a crank case com ratio of about 1.3:1 but TeeZee is all about maximizing the case volume on his RV engine. I guess if anyone was wondering if there is an upper limit for case volume on rotary valve engines then I guess we are about to find out.

[Grumph]

Here You go.

I have a question unrelated to Rob engine. Could someone point me some directions what to do with frame (bracing) and suspension when bike starts to wobbly on the road under hard acceleration and after passing 115km/h it's dancing all around the lane? There are no free play in bushings in swing arm as they are new and front suspension was maintained (new oil , seals everything is within spec , forks are from GN250) wheels are new ones. Any info would be appreciated

Here is pic of the frame


If you're using leading axle GN250 forks, you may have insufficient trail for stability at speed. Quick test is to reverse the fork legs so the axle is behind the leg and try it. This will give a major increase in trail and inherent stability. If it still wobbles, use another frame....

[J.A.W.]

Here You go.

I have a question unrelated to Rob engine. Could someone point me some directions what to do with frame (bracing) and suspension when bike starts to wobbly on the road under hard acceleration and after passing 115km/h it's dancing all around the lane? There are no free play in bushings in swing arm as they are new and front suspension was maintained (new oil , seals everything is within spec , forks are from GN250) wheels are new ones. Any info would be appreciated

You are absolutely certain that the wheels are accurately aligned in the same track?
One track vehicles wont go straight when the wheels don't line up ( unless its got one of 'em - off the ground..)

[TZ350]

TeeZee is all about maximizing the case volume on his RV engine.

315483

The traditional transfer duct is like "A", the one on the left, where the transfer duct length extends down into the crankcase and the transfer duct entry window is well down in the crank case.

But because the original GP transfers are much wider than the NSR110 cylinder I was wondering about making the transfers like "B" on the right. Because of the significant change in volume it would effectively shorten the transfer duct proper and add volume below the new transfer duct entry window which is now at the cylinder part line.

Shorter transfer duct and more volume at the entry, could this be a good idea? .... :confused:

[wobbly]

You can try the short duct in EngMod, along with a change to better "rounded" entry conditions to the duct if its not
already specified as such.
I dont know if the alternative larger entry vol will be of any benefit, remember there is no "flow " from the case into the cylinder
when the ports are open.
And make sure to put the ball nose radius on the bore/duct entry joint corner.

[peewee]

hey guys am i correct in thinking these engines have 3 forms of heat transfer ? conduction as the combustion and friction heat passes through the cylinder to the water jackets and forced convection as the water carries heat to the radiator and the radiant heat given off at the engine exterior

[peewee]

And make sure to put the ball nose radius on the bore/duct entry joint corner.

it also appears he has a bullnose on the transfer roof / bore. i think either frits or jan said a sharp edge would lessen exh gas backflow into the transfer passages

[J.A.W.]

hey guys am i correct in thinking these engines have 3 forms of heat transfer ? conduction as the combustion and friction heat passes through the cylinder to the water jackets and forced convection as the water carries heat to the radiator and the radiant heat given off at the engine exterior

+ Latent heat of evaporation from fuel/air mix passing through.. & this has to be compensated for - with DFI 2Ts..

[marsheng]

I purchased 2 YZ250 rods. The ProX has a w cage and the HotRods has a plain cage. Guess I'll use the HotRods one.

I have now have to machine the webs for the wider rod and I though I would check the whole arrangement before machining. What clearance is normal for between the crank and the casings ?

Cheers Wallace

[Frits Overmars]

What clearance is normal for between the crank and the casings ? Not less than 1 mm all around, taking axial movement of the crank into account as well.

[husaberg]

Not less than 1 mm all around, taking axial movement of the crank into account as well.

Frits is it possible or worthwhile, to convert cranks to the pressed in Bronze or was it brass washer sleeve (as below) while he's at it allowing him to delete the washers?
315488
Bearing In mind he's an engineer with a well equipped workshop.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits is it possible or worthwhile, to convert cranks to the pressed in Bronze or was it brass washer sleeve (as below) while he's at it allowing him to delete the washers?
315488
Bearing In mind he's an engineer with a well equipped workshop.Sure it's possible (it was bronze, not brass). But then I would go one better, forget the pressed-in washers and have the insides of the crank cheeks flame-sprayed with bronze. This offers the same friction/lubrication properties and it does not require cutting (thus weakening) the press fit area.

[husaberg]

Sure it's possible (it was bronze, not brass). But then I would go one better, forget the pressed-in washers and have the insides of the crank cheeks flame-sprayed with bronze. This offers the same friction/lubrication properties and it does not require cutting (thus weakening) the press fit area.

So you can delete the washers then? because that would stop him needing to machine the crank I think.

[Frits Overmars]

So you can delete the washers then? because that would stop him needing to machine the crank I think.Yep
315491
Better now?

[husaberg]

Yep

Better now?

I opened that MSG I can't see PNGs without opening them in a new tab
that should work out for Wallace than as I think the rod he has is about 2mm wider so deleting the washers might work out for him.

[Frits Overmars]

I opened that MSG I can't see PNGs without opening them in a new tab.I could not post PNGs here for a while, but the problem went away somehow. Anyway, I converted the above PNG to a JPG; here you go:
315492

[marsheng]

that should work out for Wallace than as I think the rod he has is about 2mm wider so deleting the washers might work out for him.

As I said I need to measure the whole arrangement - East German manufacture.

From my rough current measurements, I only have 0.7 between the crank and cases. I may then have to shorten the big end pin by 0.6 mm to give the 1 mm

The old rod was roughly 17 compared to 20 so I will need more than 2 x 1.1mm washers.

Why I like copper washers is all things being equal, they will turn at best only 1/2 the speed of the cage. If the oil friction is the same on both sides of the washer, then it will be 1/2 speed.

Pressed in washers will be running against the cage at full RPM.


****************************************

I have a damaged crank with slogged out big end pin holes. I think I read in Eric Gorr's book to TIG weld them up with a SS rod and then re-machine. I was thinking on a rough bore and then ream to finished size. Any ideas ?

[husaberg]

As I said I need to measure the whole arrangement - East German manufacture.

From my rough current measurements, I only have 0.7 between the crank and cases. I may then have to shorten the big end pin by 0.6 mm to give the 1 mm

The old rod was roughly 17 compared to 20 so I will need more than 2 x 1.1mm washers.

Why I like copper washers is all things being equal, they will turn at best only 1/2 the speed of the cage. If the oil friction is the same on both sides of the washer, then it will be 1/2 speed.

Pressed in washers will be running against the cage at full RPM.


****************************************

I have a damaged crank with slogged out big end pin holes. I think I read in Eric Gorr's book to TIG weld them up with a SS rod and then re-machine. I was thinking on a rough bore and then ream to finished size. Any ideas ?

Hopefully Frits will post the full story but my understanding is by deleting the washers big end life improves as it allows more lubricant to flow intothe big end bearing. From Frits post above it seems you can spray bronze on for better results.
You should also aim for at least 1mm clearance all around the crank to minimise drag.

[Muciek]

Thanks guys for many replies. I have made a list and passed it to friend who's bike it is. Now we will try to fix it. In earlier post I have made a mistake forks are from GN125 not 250 they are looking like regular forks not leading axle. Thanks again for help.

[peewee]

I purchased 2 YZ250 rods. The ProX has a w cage and the HotRods has a plain cage. Guess I'll use the HotRods one.

Cheers Wallace

Why not use the hotrods bearing in the prox rod as its japan , where as hotrods is taiwan. Better yet maybe you could get a honda bearing for your prox rod. Ive always tried to avoid hotrods when possible

[seattle smitty]

Older-generation racing outboards, such as the Konigs I had, used narrow hardened-steel washers on either side of the rod small-end to center the rod. Worked fine for us at the time, but was improved by slotting the small end or carefully notching the outer edges of the small end in a couple of places, to give much better access to lubrication and vent heat. I don't know how the latest motors locate their rods, but since they are manufactured by men from GP bike racing backgrounds, I suppose they locate from the big-end.

In searching this thread (thanks to those who showed me how!!) I saw a reference to other engines that located from the small-end, as above, but used aluminum thrust washers. It was reported that neither the use of 7075 nor hard-anodizing kept these washers from failing. Nothing was said about any sort of slotting or other modification of the rod small-end for lubrication. Obviously slotting would weaken the rod, perhaps to the point of trading one problem for another.

[Grumph]

Older-generation racing outboards, such as the Konigs I had, used narrow hardened-steel washers on either side of the rod small-end to center the rod. Worked fine for us at the time, but was improved by slotting the small end or carefully notching the outer edges of the small end in a couple of places, to give much better access to lubrication and vent heat. I don't know how the latest motors locate their rods, but since they are manufactured by men from GP bike racing backgrounds, I suppose they locate from the big-end.

In searching this thread (thanks to those who showed me how!!) I saw a reference to other engines that located from the small-end, as above, but used aluminum thrust washers. It was reported that neither the use of 7075 nor hard-anodizing kept these washers from failing. Nothing was said about any sort of slotting or other modification of the rod small-end for lubrication. Obviously slotting would weaken the rod, perhaps to the point of trading one problem for another.

Overhead guidance is possibly an option on Wallace's Maico as it probably won't be called on to do the prolonged very high RPM which seems to destroy the alloy top spacers. I suspect that bronze spraying the rubbing areas of the crankwebs may not be available local to him and I. Steel, zinc and aluminium spraying, yes, Bronze, probably not. I've dealt with the local mob who do it and they are not helpful generally...
Last time I had to use thrust washers fixed to the crankwebs was a vintage Triumph 4T single which had very badly worn crankwebs where the rod had rubbed. It's still running so it seems to have worked...

[FastFred]

Overhead guidance is possibly an option...


Older-generation racing outboards, such as the Konigs I had, used narrow hardened-steel washers on either side of the rod small-end to center the rod. Worked fine for us at the time, but was improved by slotting the small end or carefully notching the outer edges of the small end in a couple of places, to give much better access to lubrication and vent heat.

315496315497

TeeZee has often posted pictures where you can see the RGV250 thrust washers he uses, The rod is located by hardened steel washers on the piston pin, just like you described and the bigend bearing by thin steel washers that can be seen in the second picture.

[TZ350]

315499

Been helping Chambers dyno his 50 which is running a 24mm Tillotson pumper carb.

315500

13+ rwhp so far.

[F5 Dave]

My word that's got some revs on it Rob. My 50s never touched 14 ever. Mind you the crank is still fine on the RG for ten years so it was clearly conservative with Yamaha parts.

[TZ350]

My word that's got some revs on it Rob. My 50s never touched 14 ever.

If rev's could win races we would be champions. Not sure what needs changing but it should be able to make more hp than it does and like you say, below 14K rpm ...... No doubt the answers are buried in this thread some place, I will have to start digging ..... :laugh:

[marsheng]

Overhead guidance is possibly an option on Wallace's Maico as it probably won't be called on to do the prolonged very high RPM which seems to destroy the alloy top spacers. ..

The inside of the piston does not have parallel to conrod faces so washers here may be an issue. I'll stick to machining the webs and copper washers.

On the other and hand I'm re-building a Konig 350 cc and they are spaced inside the piston, so any info on this is a real plus. The motor had rusted and badly machined spacers and I will be making new ones. Not sure on the clearance required in the little end but the big end is really sloppy.

[husaberg]

The inside of the piston does not have parallel to conrod faces so washers here may be an issue. I'll stick to machining the webs and copper washers.

On the other and hand I'm re-building a Konig 350 cc and they are spaced inside the piston, so any info on this is a real plus. The motor had rusted and badly machined spacers and I will be making new ones. Not sure on the clearance required in the little end but the big end is really sloppy.

If you are going to run washers aim to use the silver plated washers though Wallace.
If you read up on Jennings two stroke book which is on the net he explains the top end guided.

http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAAahUKEwju24bpgd_HAhWCxqYKHaZmAXU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amrca.com%2Ftech%2Ftuners.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFwMFuZ2ja58wF9ozRZ9VqG6aC7UQ

[seattle smitty]

The inside of the piston does not have parallel to conrod faces so washers here may be an issue. I'll stick to machining the webs and copper washers.

On the other and hand I'm re-building a Konig 350 cc and they are spaced inside the piston, so any info on this is a real plus. The motor had rusted and badly machined spacers and I will be making new ones. Not sure on the clearance required in the little end but the big end is really sloppy.


For the Maico piston, maybe you could fit a reverse-spotfacer to make the faces parallel, if you want to use washers there.

With the Konig, when you figure out what all you need you can PM me and I'll get you in touch with people who still work on those. Give me dims for the spacers. It might be that Konny is making many parts you can use. They only build 500s and 700s, but these are essentially the same as the 350s, same crank, rods, etc.. What's more, since all these versions had the 54mm stroke, to make a 350 required an extra-thick sleeve. This is a good thing if you happened to want to modernize this engine with improved porting; starting with new, thick, blank sleeves, you can make your own porting and have a real stomper. The manufacturing tolerances were pretty sloppy on the old Konigs (we in the States had a strong feeling that we got the junk and the Europeans got the better-made motors), but if you buy a complete new Konny crank, as I hear it you'll be getting good workmanship.

[peewee]

315496315497

TeeZee has often posted pictures where you can see the RGV250 thrust washers he uses, The rod is located by hardened steel washers on the piston pin, just like you described and the bigend bearing by thin steel washers that can be seen in the second picture.

is that epoxy filling the cheek holes ? i have one with similar holes but didnt bother to plug them. wished i would of but at this stage it would be alot of work to take the engine back apart :facepalm:

[TZ350]

With the Konig, The manufacturing tolerances were pretty sloppy on the old Konigs (we in the States had a strong feeling that we got the junk and the Europeans got the better-made motors), but if you buy a complete new Konny crank, as I hear it you'll be getting good workmanship.

When you read the story of Kim and Konig there is no mention of favoritism. Kim drover boats as well. I think in East Berlin things were pretty tough and what could be achieved engineering wise was pretty limited by circumstances.

The Konig engines went into hydroplane boats. racing motorcycles, side cars, microlights, and probably lots of other things, a very remarkable story.

315535315536315537315538315539315540

[husaberg]

When you read the story of Kim and Konig there is no mention of favoritism. Kim drover boats as well. I think in East Berlin things were pretty tough and what could be achieved engineering wise was pretty limited by circumstances.

The Konig engines went into hydroplane boats. racing motorcycles, side cars, microlights, and probably lots of other things, a very remarkable story.


Are you sure Kim wasn't a Aussie rob, most of those drovers were.
http://content8.flixster.com/question/57/87/26/5787262_std.jpg

[lodgernz]

The Lan Drovers were poms though...

[TZ350]

Are you sure Kim wasn't a Aussie Rob.

Kim Drover Boats as well ..... :blank:

Kim, born in Nelson, grew up in Auckland, moved to Aus then on to race in Europe.

[Grumph]

For the Maico piston, maybe you could fit a reverse-spotfacer to make the faces parallel, if you want to use washers there.

With the Konig, when you figure out what all you need you can PM me and I'll get you in touch with people who still work on those. Give me dims for the spacers. It might be that Konny is making many parts you can use. They only build 500s and 700s, be these are essentially the same as the 350s, same crank, rods, etc.. What's more, since all these versions had the 54mm stroke, to make a 350 required an extra-thick sleeve. This is a good thing if you happened to want to modernize this engine with improved porting; starting with new, thick, blank sleeves, you can make your own porting and have a real stomper. The manufacturing tolerances were pretty sloppy on the old Konigs (we in the States had a strong feeling that we got the junk and the Europeans got the better-made motors), but if you buy a complete new Konny crank, as I hear it you'll be getting good workmanship.

You were not alone in thinking that you got the junk...i've read reports from the British sidecar guys who bought them who thought the continental Europeans were getting the better quality stuff....they probably thought the good ones were being exported to the US.

[husaberg]

Kim Drover Boats as well ..... :blank:

Kim, born in Nelson, grew up in Auckland, moved to Aus then on to race in Europe.

That explains that kiwi he had on his bike I guess.:clap:
http://www.ozebook.com/top100/konig3.jpg


works like this.....

Konig inc crank pics
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4851

Boxer 2 strokes
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4879


297052

http://www.quincylooperracing.us/subpage99.html

Konig Factory Tour.
in here is the Konny drawings

So zee Swiss could have learned a bit from zee Germans.
I guess in their defence it was because the Swiss designers were used to working with Cheese and Chocolates
313746313747313748313749313750313751
The Konig crank (above) seems to be a better solution.
Anyone know how long it lasted. Yes I realise the HP was a bit lower then. It would be a bitch to make that way but it was how the Hondas twins were done so it must have been cheaper.

[jasonu]

You were not alone in thinking that you got the junk...i've read reports from the British sidecar guys who bought them who thought the continental Europeans were getting the better quality stuff....they probably thought the good ones were being exported to the US.

Sounds a bit like 'I didn't win because...'

[seattle smitty]

Nope, not sour grapes at all. In the States, the Konig racers who won at the Nationals were usually those who had got their engines entirely re-machined by a tool-and-die-maker who specialized in doing that, Harry "Zak" Pasturzak. He often referred to Konigs as do-it-yourself kits for adults, rather like a lot of Chinese machinery today. Zak told me in a letter that he suspected the Europeans got engines assembled from picked parts and we got what was left, but maybe all of it was of "Chinese quality." When Konig started sub-contracting out the crankshafts to a company called Hurcler or Hercler or some-such, the quality improved so much that Zak advised owners of the older stuff to just buy that company's cranks and not bother sending the old Konig-made cranks for him to re-work.

Somebody wondered about filling the two "balance" holes in a full-circle crank with epoxy (rather than aluminum or whatever). I've seen them (a long time ago) filled most of the way with some sort of foam such as Ethafoam, sealed at each end with about 3mm of Devcon. Sounds worse than marginal, doesn't it, but it had stood up to methanol and numerous heats running near 10,000rpm. And boats run at max rpm or pretty near it for an entire heat (which however is far shorter than a heat of motorcycle or kart racing). This was back when we all thought you were supposed to have real low-volume crankcases. The kart guys were particularly keen on "stuffing" their crankcases in those days (Sixties) of megaphones or early "bounce-pipes" (expansion chambers).

[wobbly]

Hoeckle was the crankshaft manufacturer, they did them for TZ350 racebikes as well that were way better
quality then the Yamaha stuff.
Very expensive at the time, but bulletproof due to the materials and quality control.

[Frits Overmars]

....he suspected the Europeans got engines assembled from picked parts and we got what was left...
When Konig started sub-contracting out the crankshafts to a company called Hurcler or Hercler or some-such, the quality improved so much....So everybody suspected that they were getting worse stuff than everybody else. In reality everything produced by König had the same poor quality. Their castings were awful; you had to varnish them in order to keep the coolant inside.
That crankshaft company was Hoeckle, at that time the best crankshaft manufacturer in the world. They made the crankshafts for world champion engines such as Morbidelli, Minarelli and Garelli.

EDIT: I see Wobbly beat me to the Hoeckle part. Well, he does have a 10 hours time zone head-start on me...

[TZ350]

From reading the book I get the impression Konig made their own cranks for quite a while, and Hoeckle came on the scene much later in an effort to improve reliability. I expect Kim would have had the pick of the parts because he worked at the Factory building Konig engines, but even his own race bikes crankcases were porous and difficult to seal.

[seattle smitty]

Come on, Frits, I see you have a key for putting the umlaut in Konig ("Kyurnikh," right?). You Europeans get all the good stuff.

Is Hoeckle still in that business?

[41juergen]

So here is something for the wise ones.... :)

http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu160/41juergen/TZR%20250%20R%203XV/PTDC0007_zpshenbl9ri.jpg (http://s643.photobucket.com/user/41juergen/media/TZR%20250%20R%203XV/PTDC0007_zpshenbl9ri.jpg.html)

http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu160/41juergen/TZR%20250%20R%203XV/WP_20150906_001_zpsuz4otzpg.jpg (http://s643.photobucket.com/user/41juergen/media/TZR%20250%20R%203XV/WP_20150906_001_zpsuz4otzpg.jpg.html)

http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu160/41juergen/TZR%20250%20R%203XV/WP_20150906_002_zpskijv5xxa.jpg (http://s643.photobucket.com/user/41juergen/media/TZR%20250%20R%203XV/WP_20150906_002_zpskijv5xxa.jpg.html)

These are pistons from my TZR250R 3XV, its the last 2 stroke road bike Yamaha build until end of the 90ies. It is bone stock and the first piston had only 8000km on it and the engine ran fine (WOT for approx. 2 min on the german highway) without any problems. Then one day when reving hard through the gears it made bang. Ok, fitted a other (used) piston in as it was planned to run it only until end of the year when a other engine will go in. But after another 800km again bang after high reving.
The engine is limited due to the Japanese legislation at that time to 45 rear wheel HP. The Squish is 1,4mm, so no serious squish. The combustion chamber is a casted one with a very radiused transition from the squish to the chamber. To restrict the max power and to get a lot of overrev the Yam engineers retarded the ignition dramatically and put some isolation material into the belly section of the pipe.
I believe the damage is linked to exessive heat into the piston together with detos (but where I don't have any good idea where detos may come from) . What do you think?
Juergen

[Frits Overmars]

Come on, Frits, I see you have a key for putting the umlaut in Konig ("Kyurnich," right?). You Europeans get all the good stuff.No we don't; we help ourselves. Try hitting the " and then the o; that should give you a nice ö.


Is Hoeckle still in that business?I think they are still in business, but unlikely to take on small series racing cranks.

[Frits Overmars]

These are pistons from my TZR250R 3XV, its the last 2 stroke road bike Yamaha build until end of the 90ies. It is bone stock and the first piston had only 8000km on it and the engine ran fine (WOT for approx. 2 min on the german highway) without any problems. Then one day when reving hard through the gears it made bang. Ok, fitted a other (used) piston in as it was planned to run it only until end of the year when a other engine will go in. But after another 800km again bang after high reving.
The engine is limited due to the Japanese legislation at that time to 45 rear wheel HP. The Squish is 1,4mm, so no serious squish. The combustion chamber is a casted one with a very radiused transition from the squish to the chamber. To restrict the max power and to get a lot of overrev the Yam engineers retarded the ignition dramatically and put some isolation material into the belly section of the pipe.
I believe the damage is linked to exessive heat into the piston together with detos (but where I don't have any good idea where detos may come from) . What do you think?I thinks it's broken. Retarding the ignition dramatically will indeed put excessive heat into the piston, even if detonation, invited by the 1,4 mm squish gap, doesn't.
It looks as though the piston ring got caught by the underside of the transfers and with a near-melting piston it doesn't need much force to break away the top land. You might try to smooth those undersides, guiding the ring back into the bore when it nears BDC.

[husaberg]

No we don't; we help ourselves. Try hitting the " and then the o; that should give you a nice ö.

I think they are still in business, but unlikely to take on small series racing cranks.

They made the cranksfor some restored classic Bikes I think they were doing still doing some classic stuff as of 10 years ago anyway.
But as Frits. still in business judging by Google
http://www.hoeckle.com/en/unternehmensgruppe.html

[PVO]

For anyone interested in learning all the details of the Kim Newcombe and Konig outboard story I just finished reading Tim Hanna's book and thoroughly enjoyed it. The John Britten book Hanna wrote was very good too.

http://www.cycletreads.co.nz/images/products/0.5091.jpg

[41juergen]

I thinks it's broken. Retarding the ignition dramatically will indeed put excessive heat into the piston, even if detonation, invited by the 1,4 mm squish gap, doesn't.
It looks as though the piston ring got caught by the underside of the transfers and with a near-melting piston it doesn't need much force to break away the top land. You might try to smooth those undersides, guiding the ring back into the bore when it nears BDC.

Thank's for the feedback Frits, will follow your advise...
I also have put the data into EngMod and it says "deto" at 7500 rpm.

http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu160/41juergen/EngMod/TZR250/3XV4%20TUbMax%20und%20TexAvT_zpsfrezy3sq.jpg (http://s643.photobucket.com/user/41juergen/media/EngMod/TZR250/3XV4%20TUbMax%20und%20TexAvT_zpsfrezy3sq.jpg.html)

I made a test with the bike equipped with the data logger. At around 7500 rpm the Ex temp curve for cylinder #2 don't follows the shape of cylinder #1 (same behaviour in more tests I did).

http://i643.photobucket.com/albums/uu160/41juergen/EngMod/TZR250/Temp%20Drop%20Cylinder%202_zps66ukqdv1.jpg (http://s643.photobucket.com/user/41juergen/media/EngMod/TZR250/Temp%20Drop%20Cylinder%202_zps66ukqdv1.jpg.html)

So I played a bit with the PV opening (the stock setup starts at 3800 rpm) and came up finally with 6000 rpm. With that TUbMax droped a bit more on the lower revs area and no detos showed up again.
So are these "detos" in the lower range because of the wrong scavaging timing at the 2/3 rpm of max power rpm?

[TZ350]

page 1290 .....:laugh:

More people doing real Bucket stuff.



315960

I had a look at the www.FXR150.co.nz (http://www.fxr150.co.nz/) site, and see there are one or two more very fast 2-strokers in the pipe line down south and a bunch of very interesting FXR's.
315959
Ive been dabbling with this engine for sometime now, TZ has posted pictures of my sleeve which is a bit of a compromise but will do in the meantime as we have some new ideas in that area.

More picture on the original posts.


Neds 23rwhp Engine

After three years without a problem, Chambers is giving it a Birthday

236793

Nothing to special, a real simple setup, still using the std carb and roughly polished but other wise unmodified inlet tract, other tech details were posted on page 200.


... one of several problems faced when trying to coax power out of the KE, there is no inner radius to the transfer ducts, just the the liner. The attached photo shows the minor porting thus far (only about 12hrs work in the cylinder) the plan for today is to add epoxy to the liner to form a 6mm inner radius to the main transfers duct.
This is the KE
236848
Im aiming for something like this
236847


315962
Well along that tune, with uni holidays at the moment I have had a time to make some progress on my bucket. so its a TF125, first attachment is the port map for its current state.
This gives me timings of :
Exhaust opens 81 ATDC so 200 duration
Main transfer opens 117 ATDC so 126 duration
and the Piston inlet ports open 74 BTDC with 158 duration.
I'm fairly confident I have the right exhaust width for the necessary blowdown time area.



237929

After a bit of a thrash on the dyno.......
Well worth the hours worked on it. Next step a better ignition. Thanks guys


315961
Well, it's the most favorite legal fast-bike here.. At stock form, it's comparable with streetstock rs125,nsr150sp or tzm150, and smoked ninja 250R easily, but much cheaper.. & it's the only 2 stroke that still produced..:cry:




Thanks for info Fritz. The casing has inserts to match the 250 cranks as the casing is the same for the 440. It is a possibility to re-machine the inserts but they are already quite thin. The next is to machine the cases but I'm hesitant to do that.Throw the inserts out. Once upon a time, way back in the previous century, Rotax made a kart engine, the Rotax 124, by fitting a 125 cc-crank into 250cc-cases. No inserts. The radial clearance was about 5 mm. It became a world-beater.


Here's a thread with lot's of loctite info, if anyone's interested.
http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/loctite.265016/



(Insert long sigh here) I hate, I hate to ask this, because I know I've seen the answer somewhere, ... but could one of you skilled info-locators please once-and-for-all-time give a detailed step-by-step set of search directions here, to show us how to find something WITHIN the ESE superthread.

Seattle Smitty's original post, is the start of a short thread with many tips on how to search and find good stuff on the ESE thread or any thread for that matter.

[Tim Ey]

Hey Folks!

I am searching for a tiny pickup which I may mount under a fanwheel. I allready ordered the smalles one Ignitech offers, but it I still have to work on it
315564
Does anyone know a really Small Pickup?
Thanks a lot!
Tim

[Muciek]

TZR 125 had small pickup , from what I remember it was almost 0,5 height of typical scooter one.

[adegnes]

Hey Folks!

I am searching for a tiny pickup which I may mount under a fanwheel. I allready ordered the smalles one Ignitech offers, but it I still have to work on it
315564
Does anyone know a really Small Pickup?
Thanks a lot!
Tim

You could use the hall sensor for the Power-Spark ignition, or any other small hall sensor.

Wire it like this:
315565

[2T Institute]

It is a NSR250 MC21 cylinder grafted onto a rotary valve Suzuki GP100 bottom end. The motor needs a long rod so as to be able to fit an adapter plate for mounting the cylinder.

From all accounts with the long rod and 12mm extra width in the cases and the old super large transfer ducts in the original GP cases this engine should be exploring the outer limits of of crankcase volume. Hopefully TeeZee will post the crankcase volume and CR figures.

Reed engines like a crank case com ratio of about 1.3:1 but TeeZee is all about maximizing the case volume on his RV engine. I guess if anyone was wondering if there is an upper limit for case volume on rotary valve engines then I guess we are about to find out.

with a 48mm stroke 105mm rod is 2.2:1. Ultra long rods do weird things to carburation and the power curve. Case volume is going to depend on how hard it's revved.

[bucketracer]

Some posts on crankcase volume.


In order to take full benefit of a large crankcase volume you need free-flowing transfer ducts. That means: large cross sections, short gas column lengths and large time.areas.


An Aprilia RSW125 has a TDC crankcase volume of 650 cc. An RSA125 has 675 cc and a bit more power. See where this is going?


Increasing the crankcase volume has several consequences. One of those is that the flow through the carb will be more even, less violent, which usually results in a leaner mixture.


make sure your crankcase volume is not too small. I have seen lots of cases with too little volume, but none with too much yet. The optimum primary compression ratio is probably less than 1.3.


In my testing I have found no more power going to a bigger than 1.3 case on a reed engine.
This is a function I believe of the efficiency of the rotary valve intake system being able to better fill the case at high rpm,using the 1.24 as Frits has described , but having said that I have only just crept over 50 Hp with a 125 reed, and the Aprilia RV made alot more than that, so maybe a huge case simply isnt needed at the lower bmep.


Off the pipe you need a pump with the minimum amount of dead volume; on the pipe you'll want the engine to breathe directly from open air (mixed with a bit of fuel and oil). But that oil has to pass through the crankcase to keep the bearings happy. Hence my 24/7-setup


There are several issues involved with the reed engine and its case volume - that has effects not seen in an RV setup. The bigger the case the less are the pressure swings from piston movement and the pipe action ( assuming the same depression at the Ex port created by the pipe ) around BDC.

This changes the tuned frequency of the case vol, but this also requires thinner reeds to get them open fast and far enough. Of course changing the reed stiffness then changes the intake tuned frequency,they then hit the reed stops and flutter uncontrollably - and so it goes on and on.

I tried machining the KZ10B case back to make the volume smaller as I already had the 5mm laser cut spacer from a test making the case bigger by pushing the reed block outward. This failed miserably, so of course you then go the other way - this also failed,but only partially in that I did not then try differing reeds to compensate as I should have.

Adding a spacer behind the reed block HAS NOTHING to do with the intake length, this is already as short as it can be, with the rubber manifold recessed into the reed stuffer.

All I can say is that from a huge amount of sims and real world reed engine testing, that a very well tuned engine with good power capability ( bmep ) likes the case down near 1.3.

An engine with less power ( bmep ) capability ( for whatever reason ) tends to respond better to the case closer to 1.4.
When you are making 8 Bar and or 14 Bar BMEP of course these exceptions to the norm tend to prove the rule of thumb.


The smaller crank will give the pipe more crankcase volume to breathe from. This larger volume will also lower the resonance frequency of the inlet system, hence the drop at high rpm. It can be compensated with a shorter inlet tract, a bigger carb diameter and a later inlet closure. To put it real simple: if you have more volume, you need more time to fill it. But more time, i.e. later closure, has adverse effects at low revs. So my preference is a shorter tract (unless you go the 24/7-way and employ a reed for the low revs, and swing it out of the way at high revs).


crankcase compression ratio = TDC-volume / BDC-volume

TDC-volume = 680 cc (I'll take your word for it)

BDC-volume = TDC-volume - cylinder volume

cylinder volume = 173,7 cc

BDC-volume = 680 - 173,7 = 506,3 cc

crankcase compression ratio = 680 / 506,3 = 1,343

And now for some reverse engineering:
what TDC-volume will give a crankcase compression ratio of 1,43?

TDC-volume = comp.ratio / (comp.ratio - 1) * cylinder volume

TDC-volume = 1,43 / 0,43 * 173,7 = 577,7 cc.

[marsheng]

For anyone interested in learning all the details of the Kim Newcombe and Konig outboard story I just finished reading Tim Hanna's book and thoroughly enjoyed it. The John Britten book Hanna wrote was very good too. []

Great Book. Kim was supposed to work for Maico but the factory was not ready for him to start. He looked at Konig and the rest is history. From the book the crank and cases had to be hand picked to get a good set.

As for the Konig 350, the bolts holding the head down onto the cylinder go through 40 mm of free air, there is no head gasket and no locating dowels. If I clamp the 2 heads together, there is a 2 mm gap around the outside from warpage from the bolts being tightened and twisting the head !!

I'm not even sure how to remachine these to make it work correctly. One combustion chamber even has a different volume.

http://www.marshland.co.nz/ftp/Misc/BarrelHead.JPG


Cheers Wallace.

[seattle smitty]

OLD recipe for sealing Konig's (see below) gasket-less heads: Go to an old, long-established paint store, ask the man to go in the back and get a small can of silver (aluminum) paint, the one that has been sitting on the shelf the longest. Caution him please DO NOT shake up the can. At home, pour off the separated liquid into a jar. Pour maybe half of it back into the solids in the paint can, stirring it in until you have a heavy aluminum paste. That's your sealer; apply it to mating surfaces with a fingertip just before assembly.

It used to work, anyway.

When the four-cylinder Konigs were raced here, lots of owners bought Zak (ref. previous post) heads, of better design with better cooling, better aluminum, better casting and machining. But the original heads, maybe re-machined, will do. In helping another guy with one of these engines, I had him install longer studs and made thick aluminum plates that went over the outside of the heads. Along with this, I modified the heads to get water flowing around the backside of the head, around the plug, with this secondary water jacket being sealed by the new plate, and provision for an o-ring around the plug. Not my original idea, of course.

Konig: I can't get Frits' umlaut technique to work; I can't get two charactors (the " and the o) to go into one space. Anybody?

EDIT --- The case halves can pull apart (beer-can aluminum). Some guys modified the cases to take big through-bolts in place of or in addition to the studs.

MORE EDIT -- Wallace, in your photo, notice the flange areas in the center of the heads. I have seen guys provide two additional studs to add a little clamping pressure in that area. Of course it's pretty soft and weak there, so you might weld in some stiffeners, prior to any machining you have to do in any case . . . again, as many of them came, a Konig was a kit, out of which you could eventually have an engine.

[senso]

Some cooper sheet and use it to the inside/cylinder surface and then RTV for the outside?

[adegnes]

Ööööööö - it's a separate character, probably not present on your american keyboard... I like the aluminium paint sealer tip!

[Larry Wiechman]

This may help, Smitty.

ALT key and 0246 will generate ö.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-REzB4L6uyl4/UdMVTqq0uEI/AAAAAAAAHBk/04B2vhoAYfM/s640/Alt+Code+Reference+Sheet.jpg

[marsheng]

Some cooper sheet and use it to the inside/cylinder surface and then RTV for the outside?

I want to use CU sheet for gaskets and I'll use several thickness so we can adjust the squish. I don't think the deck heights are the same. I will also pin the barrel, gasket and head so they align.

I will add some weld into the head to strengthen it but still deciding how much.

I've been using the VHT copper spray and it works very well. (I guess the same idea as the aly paint)

Cheers Wallace

[Grumph]

I want to use CU sheet for gaskets and I'll use several thickness so we can adjust the squish. I don't think the deck heights are the same. I will also pin the barrel, gasket and head so they align.

I will add some weld into the head to strengthen it but still deciding how much.

I've been using the VHT copper spray and it works very well. (I guess the same idea as the aly paint)

Cheers Wallace

Wallace, you could possibly use spacers on the cylinder studs...Counterbore and press them into the bottom flange (maybe a tack weld too) then a light skim over the top surface to get a true face. I'd probably O ring the bores too, there looks to be enough room. This should stop the head warpage anyway.
There's certainly no shortage of water volume around the studs...

[TZ350]

is that epoxy filling the cheek holes ?

No, not epoxy, they are aluminium plugs.

[Tim Ey]

You could use the hall sensor for the Power-Spark ignition, or any other small hall sensor.

Wire it like this:
315565

Thanks a lot adegnes, but I want it to be KISS, so no other sensortype might be used :(

Anyone else has a good hint for a tiny pickup?

[Flettner]

Here is a "thing" we machined up today, facilitate a six speed gearbox I belive ;)

[chrisc]

How do you account for the extra width for fitting the crank and cylinder?
Also, case, volume. Bam.

[Yow Ling]

Thanks a lot adegnes, but I want it to be KISS, so no other sensortype might be used :(

Anyone else has a good hint for a tiny pickup?

points can be hidden inside the rotor, I think hall effect is good, some of the industrial versions are pretty nice

[Grumph]

Thanks a lot adegnes, but I want it to be KISS, so no other sensortype might be used :(

Anyone else has a good hint for a tiny pickup?

Check the garden machinery catalogues. There are several pickups available to convert, for example, Briggs and Stratton stuff from points to electronic...
Most are pretty small due to the limited space available. Also cheap....

[Flettner]

How do you account for the extra width for fitting the crank and cylinder?
Also, case, volume. Bam.

Bam-bam? All desirable things. Cylinder aint going to fit this piddly little crank case anyway. :laugh:

[husaberg]

Bam-bam? All desirable things. Cylinder aint going to fit this piddly little crank case anyway. :laugh:

I think he's talking comic book. kaapow

[nine-thirtysix]

Hi everybody,

I followed this thread for a long time and the knowledge which is shared here is absolutly amazing!
Now like to share what I have found out and would like to hear some thoughts.

I working all time I can free up on my Honda CR125.

Here you find the Ignition maps from this bike. From OEM the mapping is just shit! The TPS mapping is nearly unrideable because of the lack of power everywhere except the top and this is really peaky. So I experimented with the TPS and found that the map which comes into play when the TPS is disconnected is far better for tight tracks like Germany has. Years later I found that I could get a complete different mapping when emulating abou 125% throttle opening. So I rode this for a while. But It did something rally scary to the powerband because it pulled quite hard in the middle it reved faster to the top and the engine was cutted completly. So when you were hitting a jump near max. power there is no overrev left for changing balance or rotation. Means feels like a stalled engine in the air and a really dangerous endo situation follows.
After 2 years laying in the workshop and dozens nightmare endo situation I took the time for a new harness for the Ignitech.
The third curve shows the current setup of the Ignitech.
315609

Know some oddity:

I set the rev limiter soft and hard at 15000 since I thought I will never hit that. But found out that it misfires at about 11500 to 12000! After that I changed for 16000rpm and it reved more...now it is at 20000rpm and hopefully will never distract again. I don't know what happend there in the ignitech...

I messured mapping points from an YZ125 and I know this bike pulls extremly hard bellow 6000rpm and revs quite good.
And the odd: max. advance 27°! And this worked far better for my CR then the stock max. 37°.
Thoughts why?
For 6500 I need the max. advance for real strong pull but down low was better at less advance so thats the reason for the value there.

I also had problems when changing the curve between 1500 and 5000 that the whole power band was fucked up...I verifyed it severall times but was ok so I canceled this test out as "strange".

I'm not yet on the right way with the overev...it's at it's best for now. Changes above 13000 affect max. power which is strange again since I throught that the engine doesn't rev till there yet. but the 6° max. retard are from the YZ as a starting point again. 7° is less overev. Haven't tried 5° so far.

It's all butt dyno so a long development to find the best setting.

Thank's for reading. And I open for any criticism or thoughts.
Tobias

Edit: I forgot the bike feels now like 250 2 stroke if you don't have one to compare and just remember the old powerband. But the KTM SX125 of a friend of mine has still heaps more power in the overev (it has nothing down low but he doesn't care about it).

[seattle smitty]

Wiechman, I've never seen that sheet, wow! But so far it's not working for me. I type the K, then hold down the Alt key and type 0246 . . . nothing. Same result when I hit Alt but don't hold it down while typing the numbers . . . ???

Wallace, a couple of times now you have mentioned that the combustion chambers have different volumes. So re-machine them to the same volume and then flycut the whole surface as needed, what's the big deal? Konig owners were of three kinds: 1) "Checkbook racers" who sent their engines to Zak to re-machine and assemble complete, 2) DIY racers that could do much of their own machine work and welding, and 3) Guys who ran slow and rarely finished a race. What I'm saying is that this sort of operation was just standard procedure for most Konig owners; measure and re-machine lots of stuff. Silly, ain't it? Maybe Dieter should have just shipped us the raw castings (which weren't real great either, for that matter). I'm probably over-stating this; the iron-block two cylinder Konig 250s were not too bad.

I wouldn't go any tighter than .035" on the squish clearance, unless you blueprint the engine and buy a new crank from Konny. As for the copper shim, is that to go between the case halves? Are you having to re-true the main bearing line? I'm unclear on the need for the copper shim. But in any case, do the thing I mentioned of adding through-bolts (next to the main bearings) to hold the case halves together.

I think I have some old notes on building a 4-cylinder, and if I find anything useful I'll post it. Is this to go in a bike or what?

[FastFred]

How do you account for the extra width for fitting the crank and cylinder? Also, case, volume. Bam.

TS six speed box, long rod, cylinder sits on a spacer plate, big crankcase volume for the pipe to draw from. The idea is that the crankcase is just a place to store air/fuel for the pipe to suck up and stuff back into the cylinder before the exhaust port closes.


315610

Suzuki GP100 bottom end that is being widened with a 11.5mm splitter plate for a 6 speed TS gear cluster and fitted with a KE175 Rotary valve cover for a 118mm RV. The splitter plate will have provision for EFI fuel injectors.

315613

Having widened the cases I needed a longer bigend pin for a wider crank and found a 61mm Diesel gudgeon pin to replace the orginal 50mm one. The KE RV cover allows me to use a much larger RV than the original GP one. The bigend bearing is from an RGV250 and the 115mm center to center rod is from a Yamaha RD400.


315611315612
Here is a "thing" we machined up today, facilitate a six speed gearbox I belive ;)

That is very clever.

[F5 Dave]

Hi 936 welcome. Thinking your misfire could have been voltage drop? Try a meter taped to the tank and over the power and ground. Some 125s were 4 pole alternators but thought 04. Failing that coil, plug lead etc worth swapping out.

[Lef16]

Hello guys,
the photo below is from a kart engine brochure. 54x54.5
They claim that this engine has 43hp at 13900(25.2m/s)...is this possible from a 125cc engine?Or 23.6m/s is the redline?
Cheers315631

[andrew a]

Bam-bam? All desirable things. Cylinder aint going to fit this piddly little crank case anyway. :laugh:


Bam Bam is a baby dear I thought! Give us a picture Hussa please.
Just started to re read my Burt Munro book. He took 12 month to make cylinder heads. I love to see your progress Neil.

[J.A.W.]

Bam Bam is a baby dear I thought! Give us a picture Hussa please.

Google Flintstones TV show for Bam Bam.. he was a baby character, but def' violently humanoid.. & named as such, onomatopoeically, of course..

[wobbly]

Left16, the answer is yes - easy.
The best KZ2 engine I have done ( 125cc-30mm carb ) is nearly 48 Hp/13000rpm at the sprocket where most all manufacturers measure these.
Its easy enough to go over 50 Hp but with no PV and straight line analogue PVL ignition,there is too much loss of bottom end and overev power when the ports
and other tuning elements are biased toward peak only.
We regularly use 15200 rpm when deleting between corner gearchanges as its way quicker.
This engine is quicker on track than any TechSav or other Euro tuned World Cup engines.
But all that is now irrelevant as Mr Ryger has blown ours and everyones tuning efforts to hell in a handcart.

[J.A.W.]

But all that is now irrelevant as Mr Ryger has blown ours and everyones tuning efforts to hell in a handcart.

Hmmm, Xmas is coming, are we there yet? This waiting tease-game is.. bloody killing me..

[TerraRoot]

Hmmm, Xmas is coming, are we there yet? This waiting tease-game is.. bloody killing me..

everyone's flaming sick of me talking about it.. so for their sake I hope it get released soon. :sweatdrop

[Frits Overmars]

the photo below is from a kart engine brochure. 54x54.5 They claim that this engine has 43hp at 13900(25.2m/s)...is this possible from a 125cc engine?Or 23.6m/s is the redline?
315631The claim is possible. What surprises me though is that your engine has a cast iron cylinder liner. All six-speed KZ-engines I know of have linerless nikasil-coated cylinders while only the single-gear engines have cast iron liners. So what brand is yours?
There is no general redline for piston speed; it depends on the reliability of each engine. You may have missed the Ryger discussion here.
The Ryger is a KZ kart engine just like the one you were inquiring about, but it revs past 20.000 rpm; the prototype Ryger even revved past 30.000 rpm; that equals an average piston speed of 54,5 m/s.

[Lef16]

Frits,I'm talking about conventional 2 stroke engines and not about the ryger.
The engine is a rok shifter by vortex.
At Aprilia the max power is at 23.6m/s and I thought that this was the upper limit for any hi-performance 2 stroke.I thought the power could not be achived at higher revs because of the blowdown ange.area.
So you are telling that is it possible that a conventional 2 stroke can have it's max power at greater piston speed than 23.6,but with sacrifising bottom and mid range power?
Cheers

[adegnes]

Frits,I'm talking about conventional 2 stroke engines and not about the ryger.
The engine is a rok shifter by vortex.
At Aprilia the max power is at 23.6m/s and I thought that this was the upper limit for any hi-performance 2 stroke.I thought the power could not be achived at higher revs because of the blowdown ange.area.
So you are telling that is it possible that a conventional 2 stroke can have it's max power at greater piston speed than 23.6,but with sacrifising bottom and mid range power?
Cheers

Much lower bmep for 43hp@13900 than 56hp@13500.

[Lef16]

Yes,but it uses a flat line ignition curve and an 30mm carburetor.
Can this engine-and any engine-achive 16-16.5bar BMEP at 13000rpm if it is tuned properly?

[Frits Overmars]

...They claim that this engine has 43hp at 13900(25.2m/s)...is this possible from a 125cc engine?Or 23.6m/s is the redline?
At Aprilia the max power is at 23.6m/s and I thought that this was the upper limit for any hi-performance 2 stroke.I thought the power could not be achived at higher revs because of the blowdown ange.area. So you are telling that is it possible that a conventional 2 stroke can have it's max power at greater piston speed than 23.6,but with sacrifising bottom and mid range power?You're mixing up two things. The rpm redline is not the rpm where an engine delivers its maximum power but the maximum rpm that an engine will sustain without flying apart. Hence my reference to the Ryger that refuses to fly apart even at 54,5 m/s.
Of course a conventional two-stroke can have its maximum power at greater piston speed than 23,6 m/s but that maximum power will probably be lower than that of the Aprilia RSA because, as you rightly say, the blowdown and scavenging time areas will become too small.

[Grumph]

Of course a conventional two-stroke can have its maximum power at greater piston speed than 23,6 m/s but that maximum power will probably be lower than that of the Aprilia RSA because, as you rightly say, the blowdown and scavenging time areas will become too small.

Hmmm, I seem to remember you saying, Frits, that the Ryger had changed your opinion of what was possible in time/areas....

But of course, here you qualify the statement by prefacing it with "a conventional two-stroke". Leaves a lot of questions about just what the Ryger would be described as...

[nine-thirtysix]

Hi 936 welcome. Thinking your misfire could have been voltage drop? Try a meter taped to the tank and over the power and ground. Some 125s were 4 pole alternators but thought 04. Failing that coil, plug lead etc worth swapping out.

Thanks for your answer.
I changed for the Ignitech from the 06 generator to a 04 one with cap and rectifier. I measured today 16,5V at idle and 15,9V at about 12000rpm (at the moment one capacitor to the coil).

Has anyone an idea why less advance below the pipe makes more power (probably just in my case and the YZ I don't know)?

If someone is interested in, a KTM SXS 125 ECU retards till 3,5degree!

[F5 Dave]

Either you meter is suspect or you have a queer regulator. My CR setup doesn't go above 14.5 from memory. That's the typical limit for most 12v systems. Not to say they haven't cranked the 4 pole one up in voltage and its not running sensitive equipment n the cct.

About now Wobbly will ask what plug you are running and your loom layout. There is a little bit on ignitechs on this thread.

[nine-thirtysix]

I don't know but I thrust the meter. It's old but was quite good equipment then. I just tried to test the capacitor and this was unsatisfying because the Voltage droped from 14 to 1V in about 1s. Don't know if it's normal but my feelings says longer should work better mainly during kicking since it slightly kicks back frequently.

Plug: I'm running either R7376-9 or R7433-8 since they deliver a different powerband....the R7376 is not so rought (because of the slightly changing compression ratio???) and makes more power now with the ignitech but looses a little bit from the low to middle transition. R7433 makes more power with the stock ignition and always in the transition.

Loom: it's completely new from ground up and I wired everything what I could probably use in the future...

[wobbly]

43 Hp at 14,000 is only 11 Bar bmep, simple to do but be careful about where the power is measured.
Most calculation programs show crank power, wheras most manufacturers quote power at the sprocket.
If you talk about crank power then 16 bar at 13,000 is 58Hp, and we know the Aprilia did around 54 sprocket power at 13,000
so that is achievable using every tiny advantage that a huge R&D effort could produce.
In the case of the KZ2 engines,the best as I said make 47+ sprocket power at 13,000, so this would translate to just over 50 at the crank
= near 14bar.
But those engines when tuned to make 50Hp at the sprocket loose too much bottom end and more importantly the overv capability.
No free lunch in physics as usual.

[marsheng]

I set the rev limiter soft and hard at 15000 since I thought I will never hit that. But found out that it misfires at about 11500 to 12000! After that I changed for 16000rpm and it reved more...now it is at 20000rpm and hopefully will never distract again. I don't know what happend there in the ignitech...


The reason is the crank does not turn at a uniform speed. The speed varies with crank position. So, your ignition is seeing the crank at the higher section and setting the RPM limit.

[marsheng]

Probably wrong forum but the right readers. I have a chap bring down a truck from Tauranga to ChCh in 2 weeks time. Looking for bikes to fill it. Cheers Wallace 03 3237449

[jonny quest]

The late ignition timing results in hotter exhaust gasses and pipe temp, which fake out the pipe to acting shorter. This is what helps over rev

Oops read a question way to fast. And tried to delete this response.

[marsheng]

Not less than 1 mm all around, taking axial movement of the crank into account as well.

I have checked my crank case /crank clearance and in total it is only 1.5 mm, which means 0.75 each side. If I need to make this 1 mm, I will have to reduce the bigend pin by 0.5 mm. Obviously, I'll have to trim the crank webs to still give the 0.5 mm clearance on the big end/conrod. Is this recommended ?

Cheers Wallace

[Frits Overmars]

I seem to remember you saying, Frits, that the Ryger had changed your opinion of what was possible in time/areas.... But of course, here you qualify the statement by prefacing it with "a conventional two-stroke". Leaves a lot of questions about just what the Ryger would be described as...I would certainly not describe it as a conventional two-stroke, Grumph. No surprise there, I presume.


Has anyone an idea why less advance below the pipe makes more powerI think we all know that at 2/3 of maximum torque rpm there is a torque dip because the return pulse from the pipe messes things up in the cylinder.
But still further down below in the rpm band, this exhaust pulse travels twice through the pipe before exhaust closure and then it can do some good again.
In this rpm area power can be gained by changing the advance from 30° or thereabouts to something less, so the pipe is fed with exhaust gas containing more energy.


I have checked my crank case /crank clearance and in total it is only 1.5 mm, which means 0.75 each side. If I need to make this 1 mm, I will have to reduce the bigend pin by 0.5 mm. Obviously, I'll have to trim the crank webs to still give the 0.5 mm clearance on the big end/conrod. Is this recommended ?I'd rather leave the crank alone and look at the cases.

[marsheng]

I'd rather leave the crank alone and look at the cases.

Thanks for info Fritz. The casing has inserts to match the 250 cranks as the casing is the same for the 440. It is a possibility to re-machine the inserts but they are already quite thin. The next is to machine the cases but I'm hesitant to do that.

Maico has a reputation for tight bigend fits so I think I will be ok.

I have done the one side with the magneto. I'll ponder the drive side, however I still have to remove 1.5 mm for the larger crank. Another 0.5 I don't think is that much more.

http://www.marshland.co.nz/ftp/MaicoBimota/ThinningWeb.JPG

[marsheng]

I forgot to mention that the crank is locked in position on the drive side so it cannot move. The other side is a roller bearing.

[Frits Overmars]

The casing has inserts to match the 250 cranks as the casing is the same for the 440. It is a possibility to re-machine the inserts but they are already quite thin.Throw the inserts out.
Once upon a time, way back in the previous century, Rotax made a kart engine, the Rotax 124, by fitting a 125 cc-crank into 250cc-cases. No inserts.
The radial clearance was about 5 mm. It became a world-beater.

[Lef16]

Hey Frits,
I didn't understand something.
Wich crank case/crank clearence are you refering to?
I made 2 (awful :whistle: ) drawings.My problem is that in the 1st one the clearence on my engine is 0.3mm on one side and 0.4mm on the other one.
Is it too small?I think it is,possible a kaboom :D
315673
315674
Cheers

[husaberg]

Hey Frits,
I didn't understand something.
Wich crank case/crank clearence are you refering to?
I made 2 (awful :whistle: ) drawings.My problem is that in the 1st one the clearence on my engine is 0.3mm on one side and 0.4mm on the other one.
Is it too small?I think it is,possible a kaboom :D
315673
315674
Cheers

Both in my best Dutch accent. 1mm minimum. ie all surfaces.
Scold yourself in an accent of your choosing regarding the drawings.
Id start with Spanish. kawpowl...........

For further giggles the answer plus some more is back here.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130895842#post1130895842


Good point, Dave; in fact several good points.
Most of the volume is concentrated in the transfer ducts. Then there is the volume inside the piston of course, and the 1 mm shear-avoiding clearance at all surfaces of the crank.But that is not nearly enough volume. If you take another look at the Aprilia crank below left, you will notice that the space between the crank webs is the same as the space needed for the big end bearing. In other words: the crank webs have flat insides, good for another 60 cc or so, if I remember correctly.
Additional benefits: the con rod has an easier time pushing the mixture aside as it moves between the webs, and the big end bearing gets a lot more cooling and lubrication because it is not shrouded in any way.
Because there are no overhung bobweights, the crank webs are stuffed with tungsten to get the balance factor right.
In the RSA125, the con rod was lengthened from the RSW's 115 mm to 120 mm to create even more crankcase volume.

The paddling is a mixed blessing; it creates aerodynamical drag but it also greatly improves the homogenity of the mixture.
Smooth, full-circle crank webs have the advantage that there is little mixture hiding in nooks and crannies. An example of it's importance: in a certain engine there were 20 mm spaces between the crankshaft bearings and the seals. these ill-accessible volumes acted as pneumatic dampers on the crankcase pressure fluctuation. Filling those volumes with plastic bushes gave a measurable improvement.

Summary: you need a large crankcase volume. Ideally all of this volume should be situated in the transfer ducts. In real life you will also need to lodge part of this volume between crankshaft and piston, i.e: use a long con rod. Avoid nooks and crannies. Crankshafts should be small and smooth. Big end bearings must never be shrouded by recesses in the crank webs or by stuffers.

[Frits Overmars]

Thanks Husa.

[seattle smitty]

(Quoting Husa quoting Frits):

" . . . The padding is a mixed blessing; it creates aerodynamical drag but it also greatly improves the homogenity of the mixture."


But . . . "Crankshafts should be small and smooth."

Frits, understood that the inside surface of the crank throws should preferably be flat or nearly so. But where someone is machining the balance pad off of a production crankshaft (as marsheng looks set to do with his Maico in the photo), would there be any advantage in leaving a couple of millimeters-worth of that pad sticking up, and then mill some grooves or other intentional surface roughness there to accomplish the first purpose of churning up the fuel/air mixture?? Could this be a good compromise between big-end lubrication, fairly low crevice volume, and mixture homogenization?

[Frits Overmars]

(Quoting Husa quoting Frits): " . . . The padding is a mixed blessing; it creates aerodynamical drag but it also greatly improves the homogenity of the mixture." I wrote paddling, not padding; there's a difference.
You would have to try your suggestion to see if it works out positive or negative.

[marsheng]

Throw the inserts out.
Once upon a time, way back in the previous century, Rotax made a kart engine, the Rotax 124, by fitting a 125 cc-crank into 250cc-cases. No inserts.
The radial clearance was about 5 mm. It became a world-beater.

Damn Fritz !! Why didn't I think of that. The net result is I will remove the insert next to the drive side and that will probably make enough space for me to not machine that web at all. I'll make sure that the conrod is still in the middle of the bore.

[marsheng]

It is going to increase the crankcase volume quite a bit !

http://www.marshland.co.nz/ftp/MaicoBimota/CrankInsert.JPG


I know this may improve top end but I'm more after bottom to middle. What are the opinions? If it doesn't need it why did Maico install them ?


Thanks everyone for the input.



Cheers Wallace

[wobbly]

Wallace you are making too many assumptions ( errors waiting to be revealed ) when saying the Ignitech rpm sensing is affected by in cycle
speed variation.
This is not the case - the ECU measures the time taken between the voltage pulses from the trigger, with an algorithm that averages the previous
3 cycles and this predicts the current acceleration rate, that then calculates the rpm for the cycle about to be given a spark.
This is the trickery that allows the system to fire a spark before or after the static set base timing.
Thus its the time taken per complete rev that is used in the calculation, instantaneous radial velocity is irrelevant.

[marsheng]

Wallace you are making too many assumptions ( errors waiting to be revealed ) when saying the Ignitech rpm sensing is affected by in cycle
speed variation.
This is not the case - the ECU measures the time taken between the voltage pulses from the trigger, with an algorithm that averages the previous
3 cycles and this predicts the current acceleration rate, that then calculates the rpm for the cycle about to be given a spark.
This is the trickery that allows the system to fire a spark before or after the static set base timing.
Thus its the time taken per complete rev that is used in the calculation, instantaneous radial velocity is irrelevant.

Point taken.

[nine-thirtysix]

Could it be that the Ignitech algorithm says "the soft limiter must always start before the hard" means they can not both start at 15000 and the soft is before that?
I have no idea but it clearly limited power! And with a engine with max. power at 11000 to 11500rpm seems hard to reach tho.

[Haufen]

Know some oddity:

I set the rev limiter soft and hard at 15000 since I thought I will never hit that. But found out that it misfires at about 11500 to 12000! After that I changed for 16000rpm and it reved more...now it is at 20000rpm and hopefully will never distract again. I don't know what happend there in the ignitech...

I messured mapping points from an YZ125 and I know this bike pulls extremly hard bellow 6000rpm and revs quite good.
And the odd: max. advance 27°! And this worked far better for my CR then the stock max. 37°.
Thoughts why?

Check for other active functions which may activate the soft limiter or rev limiter, such as acceleration threshold (set to max value the sw allows), deactivate everything you find, then test again. Also check for cables which might connect accidentially in your loom (eg start limiter).

Maximum power is usually achieved if the max. pressure inside the combustion chamber is in the range of 15° CA after TDC. If yours is eg 5° after tdc with 37° advance, then you are wasting too much energy while the piston is still on it's way up. Normally the max. advance is knock limited, but if the compression is low enough for the engine not to knock (your exhaust PV does go down completely?), then this is a typical behaviour.

[wobbly]

There are many variables to be taken into account but under the pipe ( with no PV ) having 30 to 35* advance is perfectly normal
and I emphasis " for a race engine " which a MX bike certainly isnt.
If you ride around on part throttle for any length of time with this advance it will simply deto to death.
With the PV down the cylinder pressure will be much higher, so 25 to 30* is normally all that can be run to achieve best power.
If the com is optimized for the fuel,and the overall tuning is well executed, then ALL race engines end up with near on 15* advance at peak power.
Then depending upon several factors like pipe length, having a solenoid PJ etc. you can end up with 3* of timing in the overev to get heat into the pipe - to make it rev on.
This is a tricky exercise to control, as then alot of the combustion energy is released late in the cycle and this makes the egt continue to rise with rpm.
If not being closely monitored then its easy to get thermal runaway, with fuel burning in the header,and you end up having to jet way richer to simply cool the piston, ie not make power.
Thus in many cases a flat line after peak of around 10* stops the egt from continually rising in the overev, and makes jetting much easier for those not fully aware of whats going on.

[F5 Dave]

Saturday and not much going on (except the smell of a smoked paprika and chorizo infused lasagne) so time for one of my music interludes. Today's earworm.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4jZBwyG7HPs

[nine-thirtysix]

Check for other active functions which may activate the soft limiter or rev limiter, such as acceleration threshold (set to max value the sw allows), deactivate everything you find, then test again. Also check for cables which might connect accidentially in your loom (eg start limiter).

Maximum power is usually achieved if the max. pressure inside the combustion chamber is in the range of 15° CA after TDC. If yours is eg 5° after tdc with 37° advance, then you are wasting too much energy while the piston is still on it's way up. Normally the max. advance is knock limited, but if the compression is low enough for the engine not to knock (your exhaust PV does go down completely?), then this is a typical behaviour.

Thanks for your answer,
soft limiter and rev limiter is at 20000rpm and acceleration threshold is at 20000rpm/s. It can be set higher but couldn't try it yet...but seems hard to reach by now. There nothing unnecessary activated. and the loom is fully checked.
But for now I think it's working ok (except the one strange setup) since it's seems to be rev limited by it's gas dynamic, may be just because the iginition timing is still not spot on for the best overev behavier.

With the stock ignition on the dyno max power was at 11000 and timing is at 14° for now couldn't try more yet. I want to install the know gauge before.
My PV timing is set at 164°....OEM is 155° but the higher setting improved the transition on the OEM ECU. I'm not done wih all back to back testing so next time I will try the 155° again.

[nine-thirtysix]

There are many variables to be taken into account but under the pipe ( with no PV ) having 30 to 35* advance is perfectly normal
and I emphasis " for a race engine " which a MX bike certainly isnt.
If you ride around on part throttle for any length of time with this advance it will simply deto to death.
With the PV down the cylinder pressure will be much higher, so 25 to 30* is normally all that can be run to achieve best power.
If the com is optimized for the fuel,and the overall tuning is well executed, then ALL race engines end up with near on 15* advance at peak power.
Then depending upon several factors like pipe length, having a solenoid PJ etc. you can end up with 3* of timing in the overev to get heat into the pipe - to make it rev on.
This is a tricky exercise to control, as then alot of the combustion energy is released late in the cycle and this makes the egt continue to rise with rpm.
If not being closely monitored then its easy to get thermal runaway, with fuel burning in the header,and you end up having to jet way richer to simply cool the piston, ie not make power.
Thus in many cases a flat line after peak of around 10* stops the egt from continually rising in the overev, and makes jetting much easier for those not fully aware of whats going on.

Thanks for all the informations,
for now I can just watch the piston and plug...
I'm currently working on an LCD-modul to show the value of a thermocouple where I have some laying around. But they have a responce time (change from -40 to 1100°C) of 33s so I'm not sure how much the temperature will change and how long it will take to see it on the screen.
How much is the life reduced if I peel them?
I scrumple a little bit to do that since you know they are not cheap!


If you can use a power valve what minimum timing do you use?

Thank you!

[wobbly]

The only thermo's worth using are the exposed tip type made by EGT Industries.
The response time is very very fast and they are the only probes with a 2 yr guarantee, only cost 62USD.

[SwePatrick]

You're mixing up two things. The rpm redline is not the rpm where an engine delivers its maximum power but the maximum rpm that an engine will sustain without flying apart. Hence my reference to the Ryger that refuses to fly apart even at 54,5 m/s.
Of course a conventional two-stroke can have its maximum power at greater piston speed than 23,6 m/s but that maximum power will probably be lower than that of the Aprilia RSA because, as you rightly say, the blowdown and scavenging time areas will become too small.

In this mythical engine Ryger..
Has someone ever questioned the flamefront´s speed?
When tuning foulstrokengines you can actually rev the engine faster than pressure can build, and there´s when the engine suddenly makes no power anymore, it just 'hits the wall'.
Common problem with Big V8 engines in dragracing.

[crbbt]

Ive got it!

the Ryger is a pulse detonation engine :rofl:

[dark art]

In this mythical engine Ryger..
Has someone ever questioned the flamefront´s speed?
When tuning foulstrokengines you can actually rev the engine faster than pressure can build, and there´s when the engine suddenly makes no power anymore, it just 'hits the wall'.
Common problem with Big V8 engines in dragracing.

That doesn´t seem to be a problem in f1 cars (old WTCC cars comes to mind as well). Maybe because they run lower compression or fuel diferences?

[wobbly]

Maybe flame front speed comes into play past 20,000 rpm where the power is dropping due to
time/area constraints as well.
But as the Ryger makes it 70Hp at 17K, this is obviously not affecting efficiency at all.

[Frits Overmars]

In this mythical engine Ryger.. Has someone ever questioned the flamefront´s speed?


Maybe flame front speed comes into play past 20,000 rpm where the power is dropping due to
time/area constraints as well. But as the Ryger makes it 70Hp at 17K, this is obviously not affecting efficiency at all.If there is a flame front, its speed will come into play long before 20.000 rpm. But in the Ryger there does not seem to be a flame front as we know it, which is very beneficial to efficiency, plus it will effortlessly rev past 30.000 rpm.

EDIT: I was going to attach a comparative video of Spark Ignition, Diesel and HCCI combustion modes, but I can't upload the 5230 KB GIF-file nor the 5103 KB ZIP-file. Suggestions, anybody?

[Dutch Fisher]

Frits all ICE have flame fronts, even gas turbines do.
The speed of the front is down to the intensely and size the of the turbulence regime.
As the species get smaller the front wrinkles are greater and the front area itself increases.
The greater the front area the faster the fuel/air volume is burnt.
As rpm rises the turb rises too staying ahead of any wall hitting.
A large % of why very high revving engines need less anti-knock octane


Want to know more.. then google Taylor Microscale, and Kolmogorov's theory


EDIT: I was going to attach a comparative video of Spark Ignition, Diesel and HCCI combustion modes, but I can't upload the 5230 KB GIF-file nor the 5103 KB ZIP-file. Suggestions, anybody?

Video Gif maybe uploadable to YT

[Flettner]

Ive got it!

the Ryger is a pulse detonation engine :rofl:

Perhaps truer than you think. Maybe Harry has learned how to control HCCI, would answer a lot of questions.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits all ICE have flame fronts, even gas turbines do. The speed of the front is down to the intensely and size the of the turbulence regime.As the species get smaller the front wrinkles are greater and the front area itself increases.
The greater the front area the faster the fuel/air volume is burnt. As rpm rises the turb rises too staying ahead of any wall hitting.
A large % of why very high revving engines need less anti-knock octaneEverything you say about flame fronts is correct, Dutch, with one exception: not all internal combustion engines have 'm.
A flame front, like the name says, is the frontier between burning mixture and not-yet-burning mixture. In HCCI combustion there is no such frontier. A random spot of mixture is not ignited by a flame; pressure rise and radiated heat cause it to ignite spontaneously. The time for the whole charge to be consumed by burning can be tens of times shorter than with flame front combustion.
Sounds familiar? Yep, the same description fits detonation....

[husaberg]

Everything you say about flame fronts is correct, Dutch, with one exception: not all internal combustion engines have 'm.
A flame front, like the name says, is the frontier between burning mixture and not-yet-burning mixture. In HCCI combustion there is no such frontier. A random spot of mixture is not ignited by a flame; pressure rise and radiated heat cause it to ignite spontaneously. The time for the whole charge to be consumed by burning can be tens of times shorter than with flame front combustion.
Sounds familiar? Yep, the same description fits detonation....

Frits the EXP2 was a controlled version of that as well did it not.
It had some typical Japanese Letter based jargon RARC or something?

[Frits Overmars]

Frits the EXP2 was a controlled version of that as well did it not. It had some typical Japanese Letter based jargon RARC or something?Yes, it was Honda's ARC (Activated Radical Combustion). The Honda EXP2 had an exhaust power valve that could severely restrict blowdown, so a lot of hot residual exhaust gas remained in the cylinder where it mixed with the next charge of fresh mixture, heating this mixture so it would self-ignite at the end of the compression phase. In Honda's case this only came into play at part-throttle. The Ryger is cleverer: it does not need an exhaust power valve at all and it works at WOT too.
315837315836

[husaberg]

Yes, it was Honda's ARC (Activated Radical Combustion). The Honda EXP2 had an exhaust power valve that could severely restrict blowdown, so a lot of hot residual exhaust gas remained in the cylinder where it mixed with the next charge of fresh mixture, heating this mixture so it would self-ignite at the end of the compression phase. In Honda's case this only came into play at part-throttle. The Ryger is cleverer: it does not need an exhaust power valve at all and it works at WOT too.



Well remember that Suzuki you posted it could do that too by proxy could it not?

In 1962 Suzuki even gave the B-port (there were only two A-transfer ports and one B-port) the same timing as the exhaust port.
312434

[Frits Overmars]

Well remember that Suzuki you posted it could do that too by proxy could it not?

312434


a lot of hot residual exhaust gas remained in the cylinder where it mixed with the next charge of fresh mixture, heating this mixture so it would self-ignite at the end of the compression phase.There is a damn thin line between HCCI and detonation, which is why Suzuki stepped away from their high B-port after one year of trying.
Mind you, they weren't even looking for HCCI; they just wanted to put some exhaust gas pressure on the crankcase contents.

[husaberg]

There is a damn thin line between HCCI and detonation, which is why Suzuki stepped away from their high B-port after one year of trying.
Mind you, they weren't even looking for HCCI; they just wanted to put some exhaust gas pressure on the crankcase contents.

Pleasure and pain.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/rH8hcfhG1Jo" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[SwePatrick]

That doesn´t seem to be a problem in f1 cars (old WTCC cars comes to mind as well). Maybe because they run lower compression or fuel diferences?


It´s all relative to pistonspeed.
An F1 engine doesn´t have that much of a pistonspeed to brag about.
Take an 500cui top fuel engine at 10000rpm as an example, there´s speed for you ;)

[SwePatrick]

Maybe flame front speed comes into play past 20,000 rpm where the power is dropping due to
time/area constraints as well.
But as the Ryger makes it 70Hp at 17K, this is obviously not affecting efficiency at all.

If peak power is at 17krpm then it´s possible.
Revving 30krpm is just a number put out for some reason.
Maybe it´s what the geometry in engine can take without spitting parts on track.
But i don´t belive they´re makin any power at those revs.

[adegnes]

Wobbly, the microblue treated bearings you mentioned some time ago, are they from this manufacturer, or other brand treated with the coating?

http://www.microblueracing.com/index.html

Re Ryger, sooo... HCCI it is then?

[MotleyCrue]

http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/Internal-combustion-engine/WO2013185802A1.pdf

[breezy]

http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:542697/FULLTEXT01.pdf

interesting hcci pdf

[adegnes]

http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:542697/FULLTEXT01.pdf

interesting hcci pdf

Nice!
Btw, I have no problem reading swedish, or danish(both languages very similar to norwegian), and am happy to translate. No actual need in this case, but now you know.

Edited - grammar...:brick:

[wobbly]

Yes I use the USA Microblue polished and treated races with ceramic balls in all manner of race engines.
Way less friction and they last forever.

[Haufen]

Re Ryger, sooo... HCCI it is then?

I don't think so. HCCI has always been a low load combustion process only.

[2005bully]

After following this forum for quite some time this is my first post. I do not want to detract from the current exchange of ideas.. but found this link that offers some good insight to the HCCI process. http://cdn.intechopen.com/pdfs-wm/43660.pdf

[Flettner]

I don't think so. HCCI has always been a low load combustion process only.

I don't think for a moment that the Ryger's HCCI is like those being discussed here, Ryger has found a way of controlling this HCCI after blowdown becomes not enough time in a normal twostroke. I think spark ignition until this happens, then spark plug/system is just along for the ride.
All of this requires a high pressure transfer system to still push fuel air up into the combustion chamber, at elevated cylinder pressures.

[peewee]

hey guys slowly but surely i still been plugging along on this engine when time allows, although it seems like im near a snails pace. i was wondering on the aux exh passages , if you guys have thought of any clever gadgets to stick in there and use for a gauge to keep the passage width correct in relation to the window flow width ? i dont want to make the passage to wide and have a mistake i cant fix

wob im still sorting out some of the sta, specifically the C port but ill let you know when i think ive got it somewhat correct. im working on trying to figure out how to maintain atleast about a 1:1 ratio from entrance to exit or even a slightly smaller entrance as this should allow the window area to be a bit bigger. it seemed simple at first but its proving to be just the opposite. basically trying to keep a duct area near the same from beginning to end when it has multiple radius turns on three of the walls and goes from sqaure entrance to rectangle exit. i have a feeling it may take several attempts with epoxy to get it anywhere near correct :lol:

[wobbly]

The duct CSA isnt near as important as the entry geometry.
Here is a KZ10B that I modified to the red line - way more power, and looks like you need to get more
of a deeper radius into the Aux rear wall.

[peewee]

yes it needs a deeper radius but before i made it to large i figured i would ask if you guys used anything special (like a piece of wire etc) to gauge the width or do you just eye ball it ?

[jonny quest]

I thought the karting Ryger homologation papers were supposed to be out by now?

[J.A.W.]

It´s all relative to pistonspeed.
An F1 engine doesn´t have that much of a pistonspeed to brag about.
Take an 500cui top fuel engine at 10000rpm as an example, there´s speed for you ;)


That is what is known as a 'flash' reading.. lasts for a matter of seconds & only a few turns of the crank..

F1 & 800cc Moto GP were spinnin' at up to ~19,000 rpm, lap after lap..

F1 mills have toned down the rpm since going high-pressure forced induction for power instead, but lazy N/A 4Ts really have to rev
their tits off to do any useful work - with their inherent 3 dick-around down-strokes - for every power event..

[jonny quest]

The faster you spin the motor the less chance it has to detonate

[adegnes]

yes it needs a deeper radius but before i made it to large i figured i would ask if you guys used anything special (like a piece of wire etc) to gauge the width or do you just eye ball it ?

I use a piece of solder and "conform" it to the outer wall with a pick to get the radius. To meassure the duct width/height I use moddeling clay, pushing it into the port from inside the bore. Wont work if the duct is larger than the port, or tapered out.(guess you could just push it the other way...)

[breezy]

I don't think so. HCCI has always been a low load combustion process only.

maybe this is where a breakthrough has been achieved in controlling the hcci .:sherlock:

[adegnes]

Re the Ryger.

...
- It runs on exhaust gas mixed with melted piston from deliberate runaway deto, one small port to keep the heat at critical levels, and to keep the melting piston from spilling out into the pipe all at once, the stinger nozzle is actually inside the port?
...



My version of HCCI. The bastards stole it!

[Flettner]

My version of HCCI. The bastards stole it!

There you go, now make one:shifty:

[adegnes]

There you go, now make one:shifty:

I've made a few, not on purpose though...

[MotleyCrue]

And I repeat..................http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wip...13185802A1.pdf

[jonny quest]

That link doesn't work

[MotleyCrue]

Forum keeps shortening the link try thishttp://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wipo/Internal-combustion-engine/WO2013185802A1.pdf

I tried it works OK.

[Haufen]

maybe this is where a breakthrough has been achieved in controlling the hcci .:sherlock:

Conventional combustion is just fine, i guess. Remember, Frits said the Ryger was simple, and controlling HCCI is definitely not.

But I hope we'll know more some time soon - are there any homologation papers online, as of yet?

[jasonu]

F1 mills have toned down the rpm since going high-pressure forced induction for power instead, but lazy N/A 4Ts really have to rev
..

Not true. They were regulated to 18000rpm by the rule makers (in the v8 era around 2008ish) in an effort to keep the costs down. The BMW was spinning to 22000rpm. The manufacturers all said 18000 to 20000rpm was easy, it was the last couple of thousand rpm's that cost the most money.

[Flettner]

I've made a few, not on purpose though...

Ha Ha, me too:weep: I have a shelf of piston shame.

[breezy]

Conventional combustion is just fine, i guess. Remember, Frits said the Ryger was simple, and controlling HCCI is definitely not.

But I hope we'll know more some time soon - are there any homologation papers online, as of yet?

http://www.vroomkart.com/news/22826/2016-cik-ok-engines-show-pfi-weekend.... this is all ive seen....

[wobbly]

I use a 5mm diameter carbide ball to do the rear wall hook on the Aux ports - this makes it easy to see how deep the outer wall is going.

Re the Ryger homologation papers.
They have been approved by Rygers local ASN ( country association ) to be forwarded to the CIK to go thru the homologation process.
This includes sighting of the completed engines and requisite spare parts catalogue.
I have access to the CIK site area that holds the applications but until the formal procedure has been completed, no one can actually
see the papers until they have been stamped as approved.
All we can do is wait - there is even now alot of speculation and disbelief by current manufacturers like TM that Rygers claims are valid.
Unfortunately for them when the Ryger is approved for use in karting it means all other products will be redundant with the stroke of a rubber stamp, and 2T technology will have been
advanced beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

[husaberg]

advanced beyond anyone's wildest dreams.

I don't know i have a pretty vivid imagination Wayne.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/DZoi1dooMfM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe><iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/77-pNVbE0Uw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Below Pheobe
Next a story about Motorboats:rolleyes:
A short article about Kim Newcombe and the Konig.

[monkeyfumi]

There was a comment on their farcebook page saying they were now working on a 250 twin, with their own crankcases.

[lodgernz]

If the Ryger uses a separate charging "pump" to intake the air or air/petrol mix and push it into the cylinder, as seems almost a given, then the Kart authorities might have concerns regarding the ratio of "in' to "out", i.e. Looks like it could be easily supercharged, with detection thereof very difficult.

[J.A.W.]

Not true. They were regulated to 18000rpm by the rule makers (in the v8 era around 2008ish) in an effort to keep the costs down. The BMW was spinning to 22000rpm. The manufacturers all said 18000 to 20000rpm was easy, it was the last couple of thousand rpm's that cost the most money.

Is true.. boost in F1 now means those high teen rpm figures are long since passe'..
& of course the diminishing marginal returns of port-time-area/friction/cost was indeed, crushing.. Honda tried to beat it & failed - with their NR500 4T.. 30+ years ago..

[Flettner]

There was a comment on their farcebook page saying they were now working on a 250 twin, with their own crankcases.

One leaver arm, one con rod, one hydrodynamic short stroke crankshaft and two guided pistons?? Imagine that.
Either way, now we are talking, 140HP for how much weight? Not much!

[J.A.W.]

I use a 5mm diameter carbide ball to do the rear wall hook on the Aux ports - this makes it easy to see how deep the outer wall is going.

Re the Ryger homologation papers.
They have been approved by Rygers local ASN ( country association ) to be forwarded to the CIK to go thru the homologation process.
This includes sighting of the completed engines and requisite spare parts catalogue.
I have access to the CIK site area that holds the applications but until the formal procedure has been completed, no one can actually
see the papers until they have been stamped as approved.
All we can do is wait - there is even now alot of speculation and disbelief by current manufacturers like TM that Rygers claims are valid.
Unfortunately for them when the Ryger is approved for use in karting it means all other products will be redundant with the stroke of a rubber stamp, and 2T technology will have been
advanced beyond anyone's wildest dreams.


Brilliant.. Bring back Buck.. ah, I mean..

Bring back real bikes, 2Ts - to G.P. racing!

[jasonu]

Is true.. boost in F1 now means those high teen rpm figures are long since passe'..
..

The result is true. The time line you described is not.

[J.A.W.]

The result is true. The time line you described is not.

Yes it is.. rpm limits are way lower - particularly so, since F1 went turbo-compound & Moto GP dropped the 800s..

& you can't quote me on any such thing as a "time line" -so you ping me with a red rep point.. thats piss weak mate..

[Flettner]

With these karting rules, is there a requirement for a kill switch?
If the Ryger is running HCCI ( auto ignition ) how the hell do you turn it off if the engine gets away on you? Assuming a stuck throttle say.
Turn the fuel off and wait? Fire extinguisher up it's carby?

[Grumph]

With these karting rules, is there a requirement for a kill switch?
If the Ryger is running HCCI ( auto ignition ) how the hell do you turn it off if the engine gets away on you? Assuming a stuck throttle say.
Turn the fuel off and wait? Fire extinguisher up it carby?

i've had that happen - by accident...plating flaking off a surface gap plug turned it into an ignition source.
Other than stalling it - if you realise in time - it's wait for the fuel to run out.
personally, I'd doubt if the Ryger uses HCCI.

[TZ350]

... is there a requirement for a kill switch? If the Ryger is running HCCI ( auto ignition ) how the hell do you turn it off if the engine gets away on you? Assuming a stuck throttle say. Turn the fuel off and wait? Fire extinguisher up it's carby?

Often had that problem with the acetone/methanol and a dash of nitro 2T's. The kill switch did nothing and the engine would barely slow down when the throttle was shut. The answer was to stall it and/or pull the choke on and wait till the rich mixture drowned the hot spot ignition source. Bit tricky when your diving into the hair pin at a rapid rate of knots.

[Flettner]

i've had that happen - by accident...plating flaking off a surface gap plug turned it into an ignition source.
Other than stalling it - if you realise in time - it's wait for the fuel to run out.
personally, I'd doubt if the Ryger uses HCCI.

I agree it's not HCCI as we know it but there is something happening to start multiple burn points spontaneously ( controlled ). At 30,000 rpm there is not much time to get combustion all done.

[breezy]

"I have access to the CIK site area that holds the applications but until the formal procedure has been completed, no one can actually
see the papers until they have been stamped as approved"

imagine being able to have access to those papers....mean while, if they were mine id be having sleepless nights:eek5: and id be dropping out little false hints all over the place to keep people off the track.

i wonder if Frits could comment on whether this engine,outside the kart world, has room for improvement to keep all the engine tuners busy. could it be so simple?

although, since this Ryger engine has appeared, i hanvt watched much tv and its opened my eyes to so many different types of ideas that have been patented in the two stroke world that have not materialised , why ?

and another one http://www.ardellco.com/animations.htm

[Ocean1]

With these karting rules, is there a requirement for a kill switch?
If the Ryger is running HCCI ( auto ignition ) how the hell do you turn it off if the engine gets away on you? Assuming a stuck throttle say.
Turn the fuel off and wait? Fire extinguisher up it's carby?

GM 471/671 two strokes often had sprung plates mounted over the blower intake.

I had to use one once, on a dyno, at more revs than I wanted to be anywhere near.

[J.A.W.]

I've had a Mikuni rubber inlet stub split causing an airleak on a 750 Kawasaki, do it.. & drag the 2 other cylinders along for the ride..

When the kill switch has no effect, then stalling it - is the only quick option, but if you pull in the clutch.. it runs away..making gear selection a tad harsh..

[MotleyCrue]

I guess when one only has a couple of posts to their name on here, nobody pays any attention to the content of the posts ??

[breezy]

I guess when one only has a couple of posts to their name on here, nobody pays any attention to the content of the posts ??

hi there, i think that the patent you have directed us too was sadly dismissed as the ryger engine some time back. i may be wrong but ....

[breezy]

Don't bother deciphering that patent; it's not the Ryger-patent. The Ryger engine is much simpler.

i think this was the post , motleycrue. page 1182

[peewee]

Its not that you only have one or two posts, its just that link was already posted some time ago. Old hat I guess. And for god sakes just dont try to start any conversation of fourpokes, especially anything to do with harley

[JanBros]

Frits, do you see a future road-use for the Ryger possible, regarding emissions ?
can it meet with Euro5/whatever is comming ? The problem I see is that it still uses an expansion chamber (and a 2T without one is a whole lot less interesting to me), so a catalyst converter before the pipe makes the pipe useless, and one behind the pipe wouldn't work (I guess) as because it wouldn't be hot enough ?

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, do you see a future road-use for the Ryger possible, regarding emissions ?
can it meet with Euro5/whatever is comming ? The problem I see is that it still uses an expansion chamber (and a 2T without one is a whole lot less interesting to me), so a catalyst converter before the pipe makes the pipe useless, and one behind the pipe wouldn't work (I guess) as because it wouldn't be hot enough ?I do not concern myself with Euro5 and related legislation but I see a clear future for the Ryger in competition, road use, outboards, jetskis, skidoos, ultralights, generators, pumps, chain saws, lawn mowers, you name it. It doesn't burn oil, it uses less petrol per hp per hour, and it has a cleaner exhaust.

[wobbly]

But the very best end use for the Ryger technology would be a retrofit kit to go on Harleys.
Then instead of just killing endless scores of sadly deluded middle aged dudes that think they are Peter Fonda, with shit ( no ) handling and
shit ( no ) brakes combined with no power at all,the old boys can smile as they slide down the road on their arses knowing the last thing they will ever hear was a two stroke.
Just as an aside the stats in NZ are that 52% of motorcycle road fatalities involve the letters HD.

[wobbly]

This has just been posted by the CIK.
Ryger is just a rubber stamp away from changing everything we think we know about race engines,as well as
making HDs sound like music.

[J.A.W.]

I do not concern myself with Euro5 and related legislation but I see a clear future for the Ryger in competition, road use, outboards, jetskis, skidoos, ultralights, generators, pumps, chain saws, lawn mowers, you name it. It doesn't burn oil, it uses less petrol per hp per hour, and it has a cleaner exhaust.

Hail to the rightful King!

I'll put my quid up.

[Frits Overmars]

the stats in NZ are that 52% of motorcycle road fatalities involve the letters HD.I suppose there won't be many Hodakas still around....:msn-wink:

[J.A.W.]

Frits, do you see a future road-use for the Ryger possible, regarding emissions ?
can it meet with Euro5/whatever is comming ? The problem I see is that it still uses an expansion chamber (and a 2T without one is a whole lot less interesting to me), so a catalyst converter before the pipe makes the pipe useless, and one behind the pipe wouldn't work (I guess) as because it wouldn't be hot enough ?

I'd suggest you do a literature search on the the historical development aspects of catalytic exhaust technology,
& its subsequent subversion to politico-economic interests - sadly - over its true technical/functional potential, esp' in relation to 2Ts..

[MotleyCrue]

Its not that you only have one or two posts, its just that link was already posted some time ago. Old hat I guess. And for god sakes just dont try to start any conversation of fourpokes, especially anything to do with harley

Great, just wanted some kind of reply as to whether it was the patent or not.

No intentions of starting any HD discussions, I'm multi dimensional, I can love 2 strokes, and HDs, and some other things, all at the same time. I think thats illegal in some places :laugh::laugh::laugh:

[J.A.W.]

I suppose there won't be many Hodakas still around....:msn-wink:

Collectors favourite AFAIK.. but there are plenty of Hondas about, on which you can sadly die a Horrible Death..

[J.A.W.]

Great, just wanted some kind of reply as to whether it was the patent or not.

No intentions of starting any HD discussions, I'm multi dimensional, I can love 2 strokes, and HDs, and some other things, all at the same time. I think thats illegal in some places :laugh::laugh::laugh:

See if you can score a legal medical dispensation..

[TZ350]

Shorter transfer duct and more volume at the entry, could this be a good idea? .... :confused:

The Suzuki GP100 bottom end is being widened with a splitter plate for a 6 speed TS gear cluster.

315902

There are other links on this post that connect to the back story so far.


315912

Here is a "thing" we machined up today.

Thanks to some very expert engineering help the six speed spacer plate has been made and fits perfectly.

315900

With the spacer plate fitted the new gearbox has the right sort of end float and spins over very nicely.

Next move is the long rod crankshaft.

[peewee]

why dont we see the zero shift concept in all transmissions ? maybe cost is the reason. shifting up and down at full engine speed with no clutch seems fine to me, thats how i understand it to work anyways :headbang:

[bucketracer]

6 speed, water cooled, 30+hp @ 12500 rpm 1980 Suzuki GP100, can't be to many of those around.

[F5 Dave]

6 speed. Now you are actually talking. Good work Rob, it's been worth the wait.

[TZ350]

6 speed. Now you are actually talking.

Yes and in going water cooled, it is something else I resisted for a long time but it makes more sense now.

[F5 Dave]

Pulled screaming and kicking into the 80s.
Next time I see you you'll be sporting a Flockofseagulls haircut and some spangly boots.

[MotleyCrue]

Have you guys given up on finding the Ryger patent? Can't be that hard since you more or less know what the patent could look like. I suppose they would of course apply for a US patent in addition to others. Anybody know if it is still just a patent application, or if it is actually patented now?

[Yow Ling]

Have you guys given up on finding the Ryger patent? Can't be that hard since you more or less know what the patent could look like. I suppose they would of course apply for a US patent in addition to others. Anybody know if it is still just a patent application, or if it is actually patented now?

Yes Frits will know

[lodgernz]

Have you guys given up on finding the Ryger patent? Can't be that hard since you more or less know what the patent could look like. I suppose they would of course apply for a US patent in addition to others. Anybody know if it is still just a patent application, or if it is actually patented now?

As I recall, from my brief time as a Patent Examiner, you won't be able to find the patent in the public arena until it has been "published". This may be months or even years after the patent has been granted.
If it hasn't been published, you won't find it unless you have patent office employee authority to search patent databases.

[J.A.W.]

As I recall, from my brief time as a Patent Examiner, you won't be able to find the patent in the public arena until it has been "published". This may be months or even years after the patent has been granted.
If it hasn't been published, you won't find it unless you have patent office employee authority to search patent databases.

Dunnoa bout that.. so - what does 'patent pending' signify then?

[Larry Wiechman]

Dunnoa bout that.. so - what does 'patent pending' signify then?

Pat Pending was a prolific Irish inventor. His name is on damn near everything.

From now on, every time you see that inscription on a device you will think of this stupid joke.

You're welcome.

[TZ350]

Page 1300 .....

Continuing with the theme of celebrating the people who aren't talking up a storm but actually working away in their sheds doing 2T tuning stuff.

I would love to see more posts with photos of 2T tuning work that people are actually doing for themselves.


315958

Been chatting to TZ about a TS/RGV hybrid and finally found a few shots of an older effort. Shame I didn't know a bit more about tuning back then.


I got a 29hp engine on triple-r-superbike dyno, the clutch was slipping bad and it was sucking in gearbox oil so i am sure there is a bit more power. On its first outing it shagged the original clutch kit and then started drinking the gearbox oil but it was still reaching just over 170kph at Ruapuna, there was more power available but I ran out of smaller back sprockets.

I had some good help from F5Dave and Peter Steadman.

315957



More pictures of Bren's bike in its undressed state on the original post.


the bike.... and engine finished

And then the finished bike as raced.


The 50 is together and going.

315953 315952


Some pix of the 2 pipes. The RS pipe is a 1991 with a hand made header. The last pic has the TZ500 pipe fitted. Never mind the fat bastard in the background, it is the only pic I have that shows that pipe.

315954

Jason's RMS engineering's KE/RG100 engine in a TZ50 chassis.


315955

This is my machine when it was a bit cleaner.


The cases are apart now after an ordeal trying to get those stuuuuupid case bolts out with the phillips heads, what shit idea that is. I ended up drilling a bunch out which where corroded in down the thread. Here are some photos, next I'll jump into the dummy casings with the grinder :ar15:

http://christophercain.cc/b/d/bikes/rs/IMG_1792.jpg

The size of a 125 amuses me greatly, coming for a car background. I really enjoy the ease of handling everything, no engine crane or massive engine stands and heavy manifolds etc.

Lots of photos on Chris C's thread.


(Insert long sigh here) I hate, I hate to ask this, because I know I've seen the answer somewhere, ... but could one of you skilled info-locators please once-and-for-all-time give a detailed step-by-step set of search directions here, to show us how to find something WITHIN the ESE superthread.

Seattle Smitty's original post, is the start of a short thread with many tips on how to search and find good stuff on the ESE thread or any thread for that matter.

[wobbly]

We dont see Zeroshift in everything coz the other Irish guy Mr Patented is involved.
His 2014 updated phone number is 20100257969 I believe.

[ken seeber]

Frits,

Congratulations on getting the FOS into production. Nice packaging and catering for a worldwide market.

315934

I suppose you are now working on the Ryger version. :cool:

[adegnes]

Frits,

Congratulations on getting the FOS into production. Nice packaging and catering for a worldwide market.

315934



I suppose you are now working on the Ryger version. :cool:

I can see the protype had to be slightly modified, or refined. Is that a switch for different emission rules in various locations?:laugh:

Wait, it's a sound vs. power switch - usa setting is load as hell, but low on power!

[Lef16]

Hello guys,
I try to figure out how can I calculate the required TimeArea/AngleArea for specific rpm and BMEP.
For expample lets say for 125cc with 200* and 11.5cm2 exhaust port area and for 12000rpm we have:
TimeArea: 0.00024 sec-cm2/cm3
AngleArea: 18.4 deg-cm2/cm3 .....if I did the maths right :D
My question is,
how programs like engmod can calculate the required area for say 14bar BMEP at 12000rpm?
Is there a formula or just Vannik's experience?Is there a method to calculate it in hand?
Cheers

[peewee]

Lef i think theres some stuff in blairs book about what you want to know, although i cant speak for its accuracy or credibility because im not a engine expert. im not real sure but i thought engmod might be based on some of what blair wrote but i could be wrong. these other guys might know for sure. while im thinking of it, what do you guys make of these statments that blair wrote in his book 'the basic design of two stroke engines' pg265:

The decision on the connecting rod length is fairly straightforward:
it should be as short as possible to assist with the creation of a high crankcase
compression ratio. In practice, the mechanical limitations of flywheel diameter and
crankpin diameter necessary to withstand the mechanical loadings, and the necessity
to have the piston clear the flywheel at bdc, will dictate a connecting rod center
distance between 1.85 and 2.05 times longer than the stroke length.

[Lef16]

pee,I don't know if you've noticed but my TA calculations were based on Jennings and not Blair's formulas.
Because English is not my mother language I find it difficult to read Blair books so I gave it up.
If someone have the time and can make Blair's STA formulas a little bit more simpleminded it would be good :D
Cheers

[wobbly]

I have said this before and got shot down severely by a couple of people, but even now I still just dont get it.

Why waste time doing the calculations, what do you learn apart from the satisfaction of getting the simple maths correct.
There are free ( simple ) programs on line that give you the actual answers to what you need to know to build an engine
with the correct angle areas or STA numbers, that we know work in every end use.
And there are better programs that tell you a huge amount more.

In my view you would learn a way more by spending your time working with the correct answers on a real engine by juggling all the variables
within the correct parameters you have been given.
instead of working out, how to work out the answers - as its all been done before.

Yes I know its educational and all the other admirable intellectual endgames, but in the pursuit of two stroke knowledge having the correct
answers in front of you, is to me way more useful, than the laborious time consuming exercise of calculating them.

[jonny quest]

Why even bother with time area's angle area's or any of that?

Ryger made everyone that has touched a 2 stroke into antiquated technology. Ryger won.

We'll have to figure out how to improve upon his designs slightly from now on.

[TZ350]

Why even bother ... Ryger made everyone that has touched a 2 stroke into antiquated technology. Ryger won.

Personally I really hope the Ryger concept heralds a new dawn for useful 2T technology.

Unless you're at the top of Kart competition, next year maybe but anywhere else, when exactly are you expecting to be beaten by a Ryger.

Buckets is a different story ..... :laugh: ... plans are afoot.

[seymour14]

Personally I really hope the Ryger concept heralds a new dawn for useful 2T technology. But it may be a bit premature to write the old ideas off because I am willing to bet that unless you're at the top of Kart competition, and you go riding next week or month or maybe even a year or two or ever if you're into VMX or the post classic classes you are not going to be beaten by a Ryger.

Buckets is a different story ..... :laugh:

Exactly TZ, and the two stroke expansions will happen in Buckets as per usual. Not sure many of us will have deep enough pockets to buy a Ryger for a while to come (any Chinese derivatives on the market yet;)).

It's a Kart motor too, might have to give the Ryger proponents a call and get one put in a commuter bike!

Interesting development though, and very interested to see if it is a rocket or a hand grenade. Time on the track will give us those answers.

[peewee]

how can port surface area be irrelevant for ryger . mixture still passes in and out of the cylinder via transfer and exh passages, does it not ? something has to open and close a window, does it not ? to say the windows size is irrelevant would meen a pin sized hole would give the same results as a much larger hole.

far as i know frits is the only one to see the engine. how can everyone else be sure whats irrelevant or not ?? johhnyquest if you know how it works i think all of us are listening with great anticipation

[peewee]

The duct CSA isnt near as important as the entry geometry.
.

what is CSA stand for ?

[Ocean1]

what is CSA stand for ?

From an engineer it means Cross Sectional Area.

[AndreasL]

Seeing Neels is online.

Can we expect future versions of EngMod including the Ryger concept do you think?

Impossible to answer, I know, but any way...