ESE's works engine tuner

[190mech]

The foam and extension in the main jet area should help the aeration,but what about the float and neelle valve as Frits stated?If the float level is constantly changing its height,then the emulsion tube will change the mixture strength also due to the level height..Next step is keeping the fuel bowl level constant,how can we do that??

[oldjohnno]

The next time I have it apart I will do some serious balancing with disc and variator on the crank.

Before I give up and buy a Tillotson(can't afford one atm anyways...) I'll try extending the main jet with a short piece of tubing into a "well" with foam. Wish me luck!

I know this has already been pointed out but.... why does the fuel foam? Vibration. And why is the fuel level all over the place? Vibration again. You could easily spend a few hours trying all sorts of kludges to manage the fuel and not be guaranteed success. Or you could spend that time checking and adjusting the balance of the entire rotating assembly and know that you have a good chance of improving things to some degree.

Good luck!

[adegnes]

After sleeping on it, here's the new game plan:

1. Try float bowl with well.

A. It works, finally get a baseline run to verify engmod numbers, tear down, carefull balancing of the whole crank assembly, porting and new pipe.

B. It doesn't, tear down, carefull balancing, reasembly, another attempt at a baseline run.

C. A and B failed, get a Tillotson.

IF A or B. Get a Tillotson anyway to cut down on intake length.

IF A, B, and C fails. Injection.

2. Retire.

There you have it, you're welcome to start yelling if I deviate from the plan.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5Z0kS7lm2A

[husaberg]

After sleeping on it, here's the new game plan:


4.07-4.09 is that a snowball hitting the front of the bike?

https://i.imgflip.com/1gye3k.gif (https://imgflip.com/gif/1gye3k)

[adegnes]

4.07-4.09 is that a snowball hitting the front of the bike?

No clue...

[Frits Overmars]

Alex, I know it's cold over there. Still.... 327573

[adegnes]

Alex, I know it's cold over there. Still.... 327573

Good catch! Weird, I'll have to check on that.

[jonny quest]

Have you checked crank runout assembled in cases? I'd do that asap. If your balance factor is between 40% to 70% it's more than likely not the cause of fuelingredients issue. Something else is causing this.

Does bike vibrate in your hands? Is dyno wheel balanced? Is bike rear wheel balanced? Chain in good shape?

Frits... your pics always seem to be png files. Hard to open

[husaberg]

Frits... your pics always seem to be png files. Hard to open

I'd suggest that maybe you consider changing your browser. Updated versions display it directly. ;)

[adegnes]

Something else is causing this.


We might have a breakthrough!
I just got an email from someone experiencing the same thing, engine going flat and unwilling to rev. There were others too with the same problem. We all have one thing in common, the Power Spark.

I'll hook up the ignition-mate, see if it'll reveal the issue.


One word, Ignitech.

[Muciek]

I had sth like that with el cheapo scooter HV coil , engine just didn't wanted to rev above certain rpm.

[Michael Moore]

Old tech but possibly related: when Team Bike's CB900F (16v air cooled IL4) endurance racer had trouble with the engine going flat it was determined that the OEM spark boxes/amplifiers were limiting the current to the coils which then couldn't fire the plug well at high RPM/cylinder pressures. Mistral Engineering made up some custom Lucas RITA amplifiers for them and those problems went away. These were later offered as the LR138 RITA kit, and could also be fitted to KZ1000s.

http://www.howardleesracing.co.uk/index_files/Page623.htm

cheers,
Michael

[adegnes]

Alex, I know it's cold over there. Still.... 327573

Hose seems fine and unwilling to pinch like what it looks like in the picture, maybe just an optical illusion. Have to double check when hot/running.

[adegnes]

Old tech but possibly related: when Team Bike's CB900F (16v air cooled IL4) endurance racer had trouble with the engine going flat it was determined that the OEM spark boxes/amplifiers were limiting the current to the coils which then couldn't fire the plug well at high RPM/cylinder pressures. Mistral Engineering made up some custom Lucas RITA amplifiers for them and those problems went away. These were later offered as the LR138 RITA kit, and could also be fitted to KZ1000s.

http://www.howardleesracing.co.uk/index_files/Page623.htm

cheers,
Michael

Thanks for the info!

The ignition mate should be able to pick that up if it's the case for me too. I'll film it.

http://tecmate.com/products/ignitionmate/

http://tecmate.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/TS91-2.jpg

[Yow Ling]

Thanks for the info!

The ignition mate should be able to pick that up if it's the case for me too. I'll film it.

http://tecmate.com/products/ignitionmate/

http://tecmate.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/TS91-2.jpg

For the US$500 for that gadget you could have 3 Ignitechs, and you would know for sure if the problem was the coil.
Is the coil you have got the cdi built in , i think that is a common method used to restrict some bikes , my RS50 is done that way

[speedpro]

Bit of fun on the ESE dyno this afternoon. Trying the lower throttle settings on Rob's EFI bike. We gave up on the autotune option as the autotune software didn't understand the rapidly escalating fuel requirements of a good 2-stroke. Today we were manually tuning using the lambda meter, initially at around 10% throttle and just looking for lean patches as revs increased. Did a couple of dyno runs as well to look at the curves. There was a bit of a dip at certain revs and even though the lambda was good we upped the fuel a bit and presto, dip filled in. Did a few full throttle runs as well which pointed to leanness through the mid-high range. Bumped the numbers up there as well to bring the lambda to something like expected. One thing we found out is that there was about .1 seconds between an engine event and the lambda changing, at 7-9,000rpm or so anyway. Very interesting power readings with the runs we did once we were more or less happy with the lambda. At 10%ish throttle the bike made 16-18hp. At 100% throttle it made a bit more. Very impressive for a cylinder with untouched ports and a disc valve that has timing suitable for a farm bike.
EFI is definitely easier to tune than a carb though there is a lot more individual little bits that can be changed like each cell in a load map and other software configurations, versus a few main & pilot jets, & needles. Having said that there really is no need to precisely alter each and every cell. You just need a range that is on the money and blend in adjoining cells.

[adegnes]

For the US$500 for that gadget you could have 3 Ignitechs, and you would know for sure if the problem was the coil.
Is the coil you have got the cdi built in , i think that is a common method used to restrict some bikes , my RS50 is done that way

I've already got the unit, don't worry, I'm saving up for an Ignitech.

[TZ350]

Bit of fun on the ESE dyno this afternoon. Trying the lower throttle settings on Rob's EFI bike. We gave up on the autotune option as the autotune software didn't understand the rapidly escalating fuel requirements of a good 2-stroke. Today we were manually tuning using the lambda meter, initially at around 10% throttle and just looking for lean patches as revs increased. Did a couple of dyno runs as well to look at the curves.

Yes great fun and very promising results. Speedpro's help and the wide band O2 sensor has made all the difference. Still a way to go but good results look possible.

Un ported Honda NSR250 MC21 cylinder and 48mm stroke crankshaft, 110cc. 24mm carb with TPS for a throttle body.

One of the really interesting things was that at 100% throttle we got a good 26hp and on 10% throttle we got 18hp.

10% throttle gave 69% of the power available.

[husaberg]

One of the really interesting things was that at 100% throttle we got a good 26hp and on 10% throttle we got 18hp.

10% throttle gave 69% of the power available.

Do you think that might be because it has a too small throttle body?

[dark art]

One of the really interesting things was that at 100% throttle we got a good 26hp and on 10% throttle we got 18hp.

10% throttle gave 69% of the power available.

Do 10% throttle mean 10% area or 10% butterfly twist in degrees?

[speedpro]

As measured by the TPS so throttle twist

[ken seeber]

Do you think that might be because it has a too small throttle body?

OR is it too big a throttle body?

Brings up an interesting point though, is this typical of anything else, eg a carb? Would be interesting to know the actual air flow rates at both the 10 & 100% points.

Also in a more general question for TeeZee and the crew, does this mean that all your troubles and doubts of injector position, etc, etc were all a product of the map settings?

[TZ350]

One of the really interesting things was that at 100% throttle we got a good 26hp and on 10% throttle we got 18hp.

10% throttle gave 69% of the power available.

Do you think that might be because it has a too small throttle body?

327619


OR is it too big a throttle body? Brings up an interesting point though, is this typical of anything else, eg a carb? Would be interesting to know the actual air flow rates at both the 10 & 100% points.

I have been using a 24mm Carb that I adapted a TPS to as a throttle body. It would seem that a 24mm carb is plenty big enough. The air flow rates would be interesting.


TeeZee and the crew, does this mean that all your troubles and doubts of injector position, etc, etc were all a product of the map settings?

No, worrying about those things are just because EFI was new to us and we had to guess at most of it.

It seems that the real problems with EFI software for us and most people are all the options that have to be selected like "accelerator pump" on/off "auto lean" "auto enrich", there are a 100 or so options to work through, as well as things that I have not heard of before and their effects can only be guessed at. The manual does not cover a lot of them. Most have a default setting and are perfectly sensible when you finally understand them.

327620 On this older graph from the EFI air cooled motor, the brown 22hp line is 50% throttle. 100-90-80 etc are very close together.

I was quickly able to make good power with the EFI system on the air cooled motor but drive-ability below the green line was the problem.

The thing that caught me out for a long while was an optional function called "Decal Fuel Cut" (what the F..K does that description mean???). It turns out that by default it cuts the over run fuel when the engine is cold (to stop bore wash, see, very sensible). Well a 2T at 50 deg C racing temperature seems cold to software that by default is expecting a 4T road bike head temperature of 90+ deg's.

It took me a while to recognize that little problem, all because I was determinedly looking in the wrong place, it turns out that piss poor drive-ability had nothing to do with the fueling map at all..... I guess you get that on the big jobs. :laugh:

[nine-thirtysix]

Till now I thought that the main jet position or better the volume in the emulsion tube is a setup parameter and critical (I haven't changed it yet). I thought while the needle meters the fuel you have the emulsion tube filled to the bowl level, but as soon as you get in the region where the main jet meters the fuel flow, the emulsion tube gets drawn empty. Means while changing the throttle position between these regions you get an enrichment for a short time?!

All that would be upset by lowering the main jet, right?
Is it critical or do I think nonsense?

[F5 Dave]

If the float jet is bigger than the fuel consumption then this shouldn't be the case.
I've had carbs that would run low on long tracks. I made a soldered on tube to extend a button jet to further down the bowl. This kind of stopped the problem but for some queer reason changed the flow rate so it made less power on the dyno despite same jet size and the straw attachment being like 5mm wide.

Flow problems were in the carb body drilings feeding the float jet so drilling the jet was pointless. My straw only delayed the starvation.

[Michael Moore]

I've had carbs that would run low on long tracks.

I've seen this happen from restrictive petcocks, lack of gravity head between the tank and carb (a problem on tall singles) and a chunk of rubber from a decayed fuel line lodged out of sight above the float valve.

A friend seized his CB125-engined racer twice before we found out that when Honda designed the petcock on the TL125 tank he was using they apparently decided to make it flow less than usual, because after all how much fuel does a trials bike need?

Larger flow float valves or a mild pressure feed on the fuel line with a pressure-limiting return line to the tank were some of the solutions.

cheers,
Michael

[EssexNick]

Happy new year everyone. Changing the fuel tap, for a less restrictive one, was always the first "performance" mod for aircooled GSX750's. I've also encountered problems with cheap inline filters not flowing enough, fuel tanks not venting and, not so relevant here, vacuum taps not receiving enough vacuum to open properly.

[G Jones]

Happy new year everyone. Changing the fuel tap, for a less restrictive one, was always the first "performance" mod for aircooled GSX750's. I've also encountered problems with cheap inline filters not flowing enough, fuel tanks not venting and, not so relevant here, vacuum taps not receiving enough vacuum to open properly.I don't know if it's any relevance - or help - with the TZ350 - running 38mm Mikuni R/S carbs - we use a vacuum pump - so no issues with fuel tap - also viton tip float needles - with no return to the tank - absolutely no fuel starvation issues or flooding.
I always test the flow rate from tank to pump through any inline fuel filter too - they do vary by quite a lot...

[adegnes]

Breakthrough!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbpqnViPEP4

Have to put a light on it.

[oldjohnno]

Great stuff! It'll be very interesting to see what the actual timing turns out to be. All of the magnetic pickups I've ever used have shown some small amount of lag that resulted in the spark retarding slightly and progressively with rpms.

[jseb89]

I thought I would make my first post:)

I am an undergraduate engineering student - in preparation for my thesis I am dissecting a particular twostroke engine to gather all internal an external geometric data.

The model below is an irregular stl mesh, though soon it will be converted into a standard feature based model.



https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/61/29/cylind10.png (https://servimg.com/view/19596129/1)

A couple more pictures of the STL's

https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/61/29/cylind11.png (https://servimg.com/view/19596129/2)
https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/61/29/cylind12.png (https://servimg.com/view/19596129/3)
https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/61/29/cylind13.png (https://servimg.com/view/19596129/4)
https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/61/29/cylind14.png (https://servimg.com/view/19596129/5)

and a picture of a cross-section slice :)

https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/61/29/cylind15.png (https://servimg.com/view/19596129/6)

[husaberg]

I thought I would make my first post:)

I am an undergraduate engineering student - in preparation for my thesis I am dissecting a particular twostroke engine to gather all internal an external geometric data.

https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/61/29/cylind13.png (https://servimg.com/view/19596129/4)


Is the area between rear transfers and your C ports restricted by Stud spacings?
327643327644

[jasonu]

Hey TEEZEE this thread has had about as many views as there are people in NZ. You must be chuffed!!!!!

[jseb89]

Is the area between rear transfers and your C ports restricted by Stud spacings?
327643327644

No the restriction isnt because of stud spacings, I think it is just the nature of the design - bearing in mind you're looking at 20,000+ miles on the top end if looked after.

The engine is from a 1999 Honda CRM250 AR - the production version of their EXP-2 400 rally bike.


Cylinder Scan;

https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/61/29/cylind16.png (https://servimg.com/view/19596129/7)

Cross section view of ports;

https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/61/29/cylind17.png (https://servimg.com/view/19596129/8)

[TZ350]

Very interesting to see the cross section of the transfer ports and the way they are angled back. If you can, please post more views of the ports.

[TZ350]

Hey TEEZEE this thread has had about as many views as there are people in NZ. You must be chuffed!!!!!

Yes it is great to see all the people on here and I have learnt a lot from their interesting posts. Best dinner party yet.

[jseb89]

Very interesting to see the cross section of the transfer ports and the way they are angled back. If you can, please post more views of the ports.

This video should show it all :)


https://youtu.be/Rze4hE92_iE

[TZ350]

Thats great, thanks.

[Frits Overmars]

This video should show it all :)Now all you need is an SLM (Selective Laser Melting) unit. Then you will have your cylinder directly in metal, no casting required any more
(minor problem: you will need a watercooled credit card).
327730


Frits... your pics always seem to be png files. Hard to openJonny, here is a count of the pictures I posted in the Kiwibiker forums that I participate in (ESE, Oddball, Chassis and Foundry).
PNG: 79 files
GIF: 46 files
JPG: 523 files

[peewee]

Re the reed backups,the setups used at present are close to 50% length in the case of the TM and the CR I have been working on.
But both have much stiffer tip force on the bottom petals.
Both use carbon backups that are around 2/3 the thickness of the main petals, but cut away in the 1/2 moon shape, so contact is made
only on the outer sides.
The TM has stops around 1/3 length, the CR has full length stops.

.4mm carbon was all I could get ahold of, (and they were rather spendy, even though they take less time to make than the 4petal versions. apparently they have to get off their ass and push a button so the machine only makes one slice in the petal , instead of three slices, hence the extra machine "setup" fee :nono:. well, enough about the price gouging.) which leads to the next question. if my engine turns slightly less than 2/3 the rpm of a race 125cc, then would I even need stiffeners in the first place (before I cut up my spare set unnecesarrily) ? what are the signs of reed flutter ?

any luck on that cylinder head yet ? im sure your busy but hopefully it wont be to much longer mate :niceone:

[peewee]

The engine is from a 1999 Honda CRM250 AR - the production version of their EXP-2 400 rally bike.


nice project you have going. is your assignment only to model the cylinder or do you have to prepare it for more power as well ? excuse me for not knowing but whats a crm250 ? I presume it was some kind of road going bike but is it medium or high performance ?

[jseb89]

Now all you need is an SLM (Selective Laser Melting) unit. Then you will have your cylinder directly in metal, no casting required any more
(minor problem: you will need a watercooled credit card).
327730




Metal printing is very expensive and I think the material selection is limited, digital sand printing for casting is another option that is potentially cheaper and lets you have greater control of the material specification / composition - air cooled credit cards need not apply for either option unfortunately :(

[jseb89]

nice project you have going. is your assignment only to model the cylinder or do you have to prepare it for more power as well ? excuse me for not knowing but whats a crm250 ? I presume it was some kind of road going bike but is it medium or high performance ?

I'm not quite sure exactly what direction to go in yet but a good first step is to inspect, measure and model all of the components.

The basic composition is:

Bore & stroke: 66.4x72

Con rod length: 132.5mm (most modern 250's are 125mm)

Piston compression height: 33mm (most modern 250 engines are 38mm)

It's a road going trail bike, medium performance

https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/61/29/cylind10.jpg

https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/61/29/cylind11.jpg

https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/61/29/cylind13.jpg

https://i37.servimg.com/u/f37/19/59/61/29/cylind12.jpg

[husaberg]

nice project you have going. is your assignment only to model the cylinder or do you have to prepare it for more power as well ? excuse me for not knowing but whats a crm250 ? I presume it was some kind of road going bike but is it medium or high performance ?

327738327739
sorry the first ones fuzzy.
exp
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130353595#post1130353595

[peewee]

327738327739
sorry the first ones fuzzy.
exp
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130353595#post1130353595

must be a european model as ive never seen or heard of it in the usa. looks interesting

[husaberg]

must be a european model as ive never seen or heard of it in the usa. looks interesting

More likely to see one in Japan, some were imported second hand all over the world though.

[adegnes]

Coming along!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3NB8nMGjLs

[philou]

Many people complain about ignitech.
The power would be less than the original ignition on 250 rgv or rs honda.

It is necessary to couple the 2 outputs on a single coil for a cylinder, and to power the cdi with 16 V to arrive to equalize the original cdi.

Amazing that wobbly made with. What do we not understand?

[F5 Dave]

So how is this criticism manifested or quantified? Are you somehow measuring spark energy in a running system, or looking at a spark at turnover?

[wobbly]

The issue with the Ignitech in the case of the RGV ( Aprilia ) and the RS125 is that what no one realizes is the interaction between the output circuit
of a DC - DC converter and the ignition coils inductive reactance.
Both of those ignitions are DC-DC,like the Ignitech, but have been optimized to provide sufficient coil energy by fine tuning of the converter to drive the coils
primary resistance and overall inductance.
For the Ignitech, any coil can, and often is connected that is nowhere near correct to generate sufficient spark gap power.
The RS125 coil is very wrong, and doubling up the output circuits of a P2 ignition will then give better performance than the stock setup.
The RGV,Aprilia coils have worked perfectly well on dozens of race engine projects I have done.
But the Ignitech is also capable of driving huge power into a very high inductance ( with low resistance as well ) coil such as the big Crane CDI
versions.
This setup is ideal for high com methanol burning race engines,where big spark gap power is needed to fire off the rich mixtures reliably.
I now routinely use a P4 ignition on twins with circuits 1,3 and 2,4 paralleled into 2 RGV coils with very good results.
Edit - by that I mean way more spark energy than is actually needed.

[F5 Dave]

Just reading the Mike Sinclair book. Its not a literary masterpiece, but it is interesting and gives an interesting insight into some of the advances and some of the disadvantages of being beholden to a major manufacturer. Even with KRs considerable infulence as Team head and Marlboro money. Some of the advances made have been mentioned here, exh port bottom, carb solenoid, Czech university flow simulation tool etc.
Not sure if it will be available outside NZ.

I got loaned mine but I'll probably buy one for the sake of it.

http://www.batemanpublishing.co.nz/ProductDetail?CategoryId=0&ProductId=1594

[Frits Overmars]

Jan Thiel just told me that he is considering selling a helmet that was given to him by Valentino Rossi in 1997,
the year that Rossi became a world champion for the first time. The helmet is signed by Rossi. Any takers?

[EssexNick]

Any idea how much he might be asking for it, or is it up for auction?
Two things I have to add, 1: Thank you for thinking of us. And 2: Unfortunately it won't be for me, but someone I know is a mega fan.

[wobbly]

Anyone got a Rotax 257 cylinder for sale.
I have an old engine that needs rebuilding and the cylinder is cracked on the spigot as many did.
A damaged one is fine as long as its serviceable.

[Frits Overmars]

Jan Thiel just told me that he is considering selling a helmet that was given to him by Valentino Rossi in 1997,
the year that Rossi became a world champion for the first time. The helmet is signed by Rossi. Any takers?
Any idea how much he might be asking for it, or is it up for auction?I was only the messenger. You now know as much as I do and I am in no way involved, nor do I wish to be. Posting my message was just a kindness among friends.

[adegnes]

The prototype mainjet "well". A gutted flashlight epoxied to a drilled out floatbowl nut and a piece of tubing over the jet feeding it from the bottom. Now, will this work, or does the jet itself have to be down there you think?

327852
327851

[190mech]

I think if your tube is properly attached to the main jet or needle jet,the tube would feed "calm fuel" to the main jet..Question is whether a bouncing float and needle changing the float level at revs will still have an impact on the mixture into the engine..

[SwePatrick]

It is quite some time ago since i posted anything new about my ugly 212cc(211.6) Kawasaki dragracer.
First shakedown went really ok, no superresult to write home about, but i saw a lot of potencial.
However, this fall i built my own rollerdyno, instead of my old enginedyno.
And last week, the week after new years eve it was time to test the rig.

I have chosen not to touch the bike since the shakedown as i was curious about how good my buttdyno was *lol*
My plans was to acheive about 60hp to the wheel.
And first dynopull ended up spot on funny enough.
60,1xhp at 10400rpm.(uncorrected)
But i have tuned the pipe to 11800rpm, something was wrong.
I quickly figured that it was my odd stingerlocation, on the middle of the belly.
the program i use to calculate pipes also said i should use a 26mm stinger, i had 28.9mm(took a pipe i had lying in garage when building)

Well, i moved the stinger to the rear of end baffle, made a pull.
I lost 8hp but now the peak power was at 11600rpm.
Still too big stinger( i save this mod to last)

I knew my inlettract wasn´t nice so i epoxied and grinded it to make a smooth stuffer down in the reedcase.
I also jetted up from 152 to 158, didn´t touch anything else.
BAM!
62.16hp uncorrected, (64.71hp corrected), now at 11731rpm, and almost 40Nm even thou i had small misfires in this pull.

I feel that i have only scratched the surface on this machine, or otherwise it was pure luck to reach this level this easy.

And i´m lacking torque down low, but i figure it is due to very big piston to cylinderclearance, actually there´s a lack of nicasilplating in cylinder above exhaust(about 5mm) and down at the inlet.
I measured the bore, it´s acually 66.49, and it should be 66.40
I was very aware of this, but i planned just to test engineconfig to see if was worth develop further.
I have ordered new piston and new sleeve, will also change the crank as this isn´t balanced at all.
(i was short of time when building the bike)
Will overhaul engine about a month or so.

After overhaul i will do some dynoruns to see if i pick up som torque.
And after that i will jump over to methanol fuel instead.

A pic:
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15873618_10154553006774475_240821164168463776_n.jp g?oh=4e2bf02f9a01e3f0fdf8c02de674da86&oe=58D6651D

Greetings! :)

[jfn2]

Hello SwePatrick:
Your build looks very good!
How about some good pics of your dyno and some info. What software are you using? What type of rpm pickup do you have? How did you come up with the roller you use?

[Frits Overmars]

The prototype mainjet "well". A gutted flashlight epoxied to a drilled out floatbowl nut and a piece of tubing over the jet feeding it from the bottom. Now, will this work, or does the jet itself have to be down there you think?I think the main jet should stay in its original high position. If you move it to the bottom of the well, you'll have a much larger fuel volume between main jet and needle tube, which may give less crisp flow control.


It is quite some time ago since i posted anything new about my ugly 212cc(211.6) Kawasaki dragracer.
I feel that i have only scratched the surface on this machine, or otherwise it was pure luck to reach this level this easy.
And after that i will jump over to methanol fuel instead.Hi Patrick, you're doing quite nicely in the horsepower department. And with methanol you may wake up some more horses, provided you feed them decently.
Methanol requires about 230% of gasoline flow and that goes for everything from the tank breather to the fuel cock, the filter, the float valve and main and needle jets.
I agree with your aesthetics judgement; if this bike wins prizes, it won't be for 'best of show'. But do you really need rear suspension and a rear wheel that looks like it weighs a ton? Making the combination 10% lighter may be much easier than finding 10% more power.

[oldjohnno]

...Methanol requires about 230% of gasoline flow and that goes for everything from the tank breather to the fuel cock, the filter, the float valve and main and needle jets...

I'm going through this exercise at the moment, gravity feed from the tank didn't even come close to being adequate. I needed about 30kPa from an electric pump to provide sufficient flow through the needle and seat.

Out of curiosity, what would be a typical range of BSFC figures for a racing two-stroke on petrol? 0.6ish?

[2T Institute]

Anyone got a Rotax 257 cylinder for sale.
I have an old engine that needs rebuilding and the cylinder is cracked on the spigot as many did.
A damaged one is fine as long as its serviceable.

There was a motherload of 257 bits on ebay UK recently not sure if they sold. next best is to go to "superkarts and parts" page on farcebook and put a wanted ad. The 257 bits were listed there before ebay

[SwePatrick]

Hello SwePatrick:
Your build looks very good!
How about some good pics of your dyno and some info. What software are you using? What type of rpm pickup do you have? How did you come up with the roller you use?

Hello, i can post pictures later(i´m at work now)
The datalogger i use is from Performancetrends and is called Datamite.
The roller i use is a heavy steeltube that i have prepped in a lathe and mill.
Measurements is 300mm diam and 870mm long.
It´s filled with concrete also to kill eventual vibrations on the shaft that goes through whole roller.

edit:
I downloaded them at work and uploaded the pics to an another space, so i can post some now.

Turning the roller:
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15965770_10154560772799475_9160448834194516552_n.j pg?oh=67bd6854c33c711062a9e0e8b6253f14&oe=58E0F157

In my small mill:

https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15965849_10154560772789475_4359945033238237723_n.j pg?oh=b159c5d1d4680912b6ba22da8edda48b&oe=591B6FEF

Milling grooves to help traction, will need less strapping down:
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15978006_10154560772794475_5249360252360449352_n.j pg?oh=5d6feb127f1b4c9b7e367440880af4c4&oe=58D6942C

Measuring throw, i Managed to keep it under 0.05mm
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15978092_10154560772779475_6411113090154556573_n.j pg?oh=90bfed0f64775c63031a5d4bd23b3f09&oe=58E3401E

Bolted together for inital testing, the space between the beams to the left in picture is to allow me to add a flywheel if running big hp configs, will let me have 10s pulls with about 450hp dragracing motorcycles:
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15941106_10154560772814475_8661125257013929621_n.j pg?oh=bd631d2037ec30d87bd3a1606e6ffea6&oe=5915F564

Started to hook up the electrics, i have an volkswagen starter to start the roller to help firing up engines, it is also a brakedisc there to be able to reduce speed on roller quickly:
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15941219_10154560772809475_8464155551985563412_n.j pg?oh=5e8c2a094252529067f68c5e83f0aac0&oe=59201B7D

Doing some measuring to setup the inertia, very easy in Datamite:
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/15976956_10154560772804475_6619029865345197557_n.j pg?oh=5d76340a331caf2ebd67ba6709406ef9&oe=59173FE9

I have left to dress it up with some sheetmetal and painting it.
But i was so eager to test it first, so it will be done this spring.
I will also add some protection around roller and flywheel(when it´s mounted)
To this date i have spun the roller at 2600rpm and no vibrations.
I have problems with pvl ignition to get interferencefree pickup.
So these runs i have used the function in datamite to calculate enginerev from roller rev.
When using ignitech i have no problems.
Normally i use the 'purple lead' to wrap it around plugwire, but PVL is so noisy.
With Ignitech i can use the datamite´s input directly from tachometer output in Ignitech, this is a really nice signal.

The grooves in the roller makes really really good traction, i can actually see on tire that it doesn´t slip at all.
I kept the flange in the end of roller as i can easily add more weigth if wanted.


Rgds.

[SwePatrick]

Hi Patrick, you're doing quite nicely in the horsepower department. And with methanol you may wake up some more horses, provided you feed them decently.
Methanol requires about 230% of gasoline flow and that goes for everything from the tank breather to the fuel cock, the filter, the float valve and main and needle jets.
I agree with your aesthetics judgement; if this bike wins prizes, it won't be for 'best of show'. But do you really need rear suspension and a rear wheel that looks like it weighs a ton? Making the combination 10% lighter may be much easier than finding 10% more power.

Hi Frits, thanks =)
Yes, a couple of friends of mine is competing in professional dragracing with cars, up against 3000hp.
And a couple of other guys running methanol in their dragracing 2t snowmobiles.
I have their support and experiances in racing with methanol as a 'databank' to get answers from =)
About weight of rear wheel etc, yes it´s quite heavy.
I used a lighter setup in the 'shakedown' but it became crooked in only 7 runs.
So i don´t want to make my drivers life to exciting by building a setup that can´t take the power i´m aiming for in the future.
All in all the whole bike weights as is now 86kg, and the driver 70kg.

The power to weight ratio is 2.4kg per hp at this point if calculating rearwheel power.
It would be equal as if mine mercedes had 773hp to the wheel.
That should be good for about low 10´s at the quarter mile.
But we only run 150m in my class, so my topspeed is geared to about 150km/h

And for the looks,, well, i built it in 5 weeks ;)
And the blue R6 seat is just a test on picture.
I got a complete R6 kit i´ll dress it upp with this winter.
But it will most certanly be painted satinblack and Ninja green.

rgds.

[mr bucketracer]

i use Datamite as well , good program , hope filling with concrete works out ok for you

[SwePatrick]

I have a steel support inside tube also.
It´s located in the middle of the roller, to support the shaft inside.
But before i filled it with concrete the shaft still made a 'ring' when tapping on the ends.
Now when filled with concrete the shaft is 'dead', no resonance whatsoever.
I also used concrete that actually increases in volume when hardening.
This concrete has almost the same density as aluminium so it was easy to setup datamite.

rgds.

[shnaggs]

I was just wondering how some of the big wigs on this forum feel about airflow meters for 2 stroke development? Just wondering if the likes of Fritz, Wobbly, Juan and anyone else have used airflow meters and/or feel they are useful. The reason I ask is cause I have not really seen them mentioned on here before, unless they have been and I just lost conversation in the thousands of pages of text.

[Haufen]

Airflow meters can be a help to understand what has happened in the engine after a modification. For example if the engine breathes 10% more air, but power is only up 5% and lambda and ignition timing is as before, then it could be that the modification also increased scavenging losses.

If you want to use one, you have to connect it to the inlet of a BIG plenum to avoid air passing though the meter multiple times. Without knowing your engine, I'd say the size of an oil drum should be okay as a start. We used it barely and only to calibrate the simulation as we had a fuel balance and exhaust gas analysis available at that time. This way, we could reverse-calculate the air flow through the engine which made the big plenum obsolete.

On an otherwise "naked" dyno, measuring equipment wise, it can be a "nice to have" once you are searching for an answer to a specific engine behaviour. But I would not say it is a must have, especially if you have a tool like EngMod available, too.

[ken seeber]

Out of curiosity, what would be a typical range of BSFC figures for a racing two-stroke on petrol? 0.6ish?

Johnno,
I would reckon that if a racing 2 stroke "on tune" got better than 300 gm/kWhr (0.5 lbs/hphr) then it’d be doing well. Your 0.6 might be closer to the mark.
It’s probably not a matter of charge loss, but a lot more fuel to maintain temperatures.
Agree though, it’d be great to see a full load vs speed plot of BSFC, as would the same for air flow. Both for a race engine, but also for a less tuned engine.
Looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_specific_fuel_consumption and knowing this is a few years old, and the way that every new high tech engine which comes out is 30% better than the previous engine, we’d (or they’d) have to be close to the 200 gm/kwhr

oldkenno :yes:

[jfn2]

Thanks SwePatrick for the good pics and info on your dyno. Looks like it will turn out very nice. Did you weight the roller after you filled it with concrete and did it figure out for the right numbers with the concrete inside? If I may ask what numbers did you come up with and how large of an bike/engine can you use with just the roller. I also have the performancetrends datamite setup. But I have mine on a water brake dyno now but want to change to a inertia dyno soon. Nice feature about being able to use roller rpm right in the program. What setup did you get from performancetrends for measuring rpms. Because they have different ones available. Nice work.

[SwePatrick]

Thanks SwePatrick for the good pics and info on your dyno. Looks like it will turn out very nice. Did you weight the roller after you filled it with concrete and did it figure out for the right numbers with the concrete inside? If I may ask what numbers did you come up with and how large of an bike/engine can you use with just the roller. I also have the performancetrends datamite setup. But I have mine on a water brake dyno now but want to change to a inertia dyno soon. Nice feature about being able to use roller rpm right in the program. What setup did you get from performancetrends for measuring rpms. Because they have different ones available. Nice work.


Thanks :)
It´s actually calculated weight, you measure all dimensions and add them into datamite.
And as the concrete is just about the same density as aluminium i have given the data in aluminium for the concrete, i have rounded it downwards, actually i have rounded all measurements downwards so it won´t give me a 'happy dyno'.
The total weight of my roller including the brake is 305kg´s
But it´s actually unimportant, the important is where the kg´s are located.
To get high inertia you want it as close to outer diam as possible.
I use rare earth magnets(4pcs) and a sensor to pick them up when rotating.
This is a area to get careful in, just minor difference in distance between magnets will cause funny rpm readings.
Must be machined if you can´t get it 100% correct by hand ;)

And to return to weight again, i have put it on a scale, and it said 307,3kgs
And calculated weight in Datamite is 305kgs(converted from pound)

And for my dynopulls with my racer, i still need to make a coastdown on the roller without the bike.
And measure the time on that, it will give me the dyno´s own frictionlosses(a parameter one need to fill in)
This actually, as is in this point gives me low readings from the bike.
My 62.16hp(64.71hp corr) actually is a bit low, but it´s about ~1-2hp low(in high rpm´s) from earlier experiances from my earlier dyno(engine dyno)

Rgds
Patrick

[WilDun]

That roller looks like (and I'm just guessing) it would be spinning at twice the revs of the rear wheel, so will balance come into the equation ?
If it does need to be balanced (I think it might) I just wondered how you would go about balancing a large long tube filled with concrete!

[SwePatrick]

Well,, first things first.
The concrete i used doesn´t contain large rocks.
It´s more like 2-3mm big 'rocks'.
And i blended the concrete 'low on water'. thereby when filling the tube the small rocks didn't 'fall out' and landed at the bottom.
I had the tube standing up when filling.
And when 'burning' the concrete increases in volume by ~2%
So it fills tube nicely after i vibrated it a bit to get air out.

Second, i have run the roller at 2600rpm as of today, no vibrations(this tells me i can rev it further).
And i have just balanced it roughly by heating the bearings to get lower resistance from grease in the bearings.
And then just added material(about 300g, not much at all actually) at the point that was always straight upwards when the roller stopped when i spun it by hand.
This gives me only static balancing, i know.
But it gives me a clue where to add or retract weight if it starts to vibrate on higher rpm´s.

And lastly, This spring i will when i take it apart for painting, I´ll go to a friend of mine that has a engineshop.
He owns a crankbalancingmachine(for different car/truck crankshafts) that can take my roller with ease.

So, i can´t see any problems with concrete... ;)

[mr bucketracer]

Well,, first things first.
The concrete i used doesn´t contain large rocks.
It´s more like 2-3mm big 'rocks'.
And i blended the concrete 'low on water'. thereby when filling the tube the small rocks didn't 'fall out' and landed at the bottom.
I had the tube standing up when filling.
And when 'burning' the concrete increases in volume by ~2%
So it fills tube nicely after i vibrated it a bit to get air out.

Second, i have run the roller at 2600rpm as of today, no vibrations(this tells me i can rev it further).
And i have just balanced it roughly by heating the bearings to get lower resistance from grease in the bearings.
And then just added material(about 300g, not much at all actually) at the point that was always straight upwards when the roller stopped when i spun it by hand.
This gives me only static balancing, i know.
But it gives me a clue where to add or retract weight if it starts to vibrate on higher rpm´s.

And lastly, This spring i will when i take it apart for painting, I´ll go to a friend of mine that has a engineshop.
He owns a crankbalancingmachine(for different car/truck crankshafts) that can take my roller with ease.

So, i can´t see any problems with concrete... ;)that worked good then SwePatrick , was a bit worryed it may not work out with out to much weight added , i was going to make mine the same at the start then thought iron sand with glue mixed with it , ended up machineing a 500kg piece of steel , 327958

[mr bucketracer]

327959when near finshed

[Frits Overmars]

i was going to make mine the same at the start then thought iron sand with glue mixed with itBucketracer's remark made me decide to react after all. At first I did not want to spoil the party, but when others start thinking of building their flywheels the same way, I feel I must speak up. I'm not trying to be friendly today, I'm trying to avoid accidents.


The roller i use is a heavy steeltube... 300mm diam and 870mm long. It´s filled with concrete... that actually increases in volume when hardening.So your steel tube is already pre-tensed by the concrete that is trying to expand, even before centrifugal forces set in.
That concrete may have about the same specific density as aluminium, but it has nowhere near the same tension strenght.
In other words: it won't be able to keep itself together.


Milling grooves to help tractionThose grooves also reduce the steel tube's effective wall thickness, so the centrifugal forces will have an even better chance of creating havoc.


i have run the roller at 2600rpm as of today, no vibrations (this tells me i can rev it further).Does it also tell you how much further before it explodes?


I will also add some protection around roller and flywheel. That's a good idea. A bunker would be nice; it's concrete might just be able to contain your concrete (better being sarcastic now than sorry afterwards).


I´ll go to a friend of mine that has an engine shop. He owns a crank balancing machine... So, i can´t see any problems with concrete.I hope your friend can, before he revs it any higher than you have done. With your 62 rear wheel-HP you can easily do 200km/h on the street and if you try to approach that on the dyno, your 300 mm roll will be doing 3536 rpm...


i have just balanced it roughly by heating the bearings to get lower resistance from grease in the bearings.The bearing seals will probably cause a lot more friction than the grease. But seals do not take kindly to being heated. It's better to just run them in with moderate revs until their friction has stabilized. And then you can help balancing by putting a vibrator (not the kind that Adegnes used as a porting tool, but the real deal that is used by roadworkers) on the dyno frame. It will make your flywheel dance in its bearings, greatly reducing friction.

[SwePatrick]

Bucketracer's remark made me decide to react after all. At first I did not want to spoil the party, but when others start thinking of building their flywheels the same way, I feel I must speak up. I'm not trying to be friendly today, I'm trying to avoid accidents.

So your steel tube is already pre-tensed by the concrete that is trying to expand, even before centrifugal forces set in.
That concrete may have about the same specific density as aluminium, but it has nowhere near the same tension strenght.
In other words: it won't be able to keep itself together.

Those grooves also reduce the steel tube's effective wall thickness, so the centrifugal forces will have an even better chance of creating havoc.

Does it also tell you how much further before it explodes?

That's a good idea. A bunker would be nice; it's concrete might just be able to contain your concrete (better being sarcastic now than sorry afterwards).

I hope your friend can, before he revs it any higher than you have done. With your 62 rear wheel-HP you can easily do 200km/h on the street and if you try to approach that on the dyno, your 300 mm roll will be doing 3536 rpm...

The bearing seals will probably cause a lot more friction than the grease. But seals do not take kindly to being heated. It's better to just run them in with moderate revs until their friction has stabilized. And then you can help balancing by putting a vibrator (not the kind that Adegnes used as a porting tool, but the real deal that is used by roadworkers) on the dyno frame. It will make your flywheel dance in its bearings, greatly reducing friction.


Wow Frits!
That was a lot of guesswork and negativity from you today.
Do you think my tube is equipped with ~5mm thickness?
Let me just say,, ,it´s not.

[SwePatrick]

that worked good then SwePatrick , was a bit worryed it may not work out with out to much weight added , i was going to make mine the same at the start then thought iron sand with glue mixed with it , ended up machineing a 500kg piece of steel , 327958

Been calculating a lot on centrifugal forces, and even if Frits are negative so am i very positive, as i have worked with concrete earlier in my jobcarrier and know some stuff that some might not ;)
My tube is quite 'thickwalled', and won´t explode at 200km/h that i have set at maximum speed before balanced it properly.

Rgds
Patrick

[SwePatrick]

327959when near finshed


Looking good.
I used more spacing between grooves thou.
It might shred sticky tires if having them 'side by side'.
Keep an eye on that ;)

rgds.

[speedpro]

I would have thought a mirror polished surface would have been better than grooves, something the rubber can adhere to. After all, in a tyre it isn't the tread that grips the road but the rubber, hence slicks for racing.

[WilDun]

Looking good.
I used more spacing between grooves thou.
It might shred sticky tires if having them 'side by side'.
Keep an eye on that ;)

rgds.

Patrick I think Frits is only being cautious (not negative and not wanting to see you splattered on the walls and ceiling) no harm in that? - Lets just call it "positive negativity" :msn-wink:

[mr bucketracer]

Looking good.
I used more spacing between grooves thou.
It might shred sticky tires if having them 'side by side'.
Keep an eye on that ;)

rgds.i knurled it like a dyno jet roller , at least 10 hours work to do lol .

[SwePatrick]

Patrick I think Frits is only being cautious (not negative and not wanting to see you splattered on the walls and ceiling) no harm in that? - Lets just call it "positive negativity" :msn-wink:

Yes.. but there are better ways to get people to listen.
Negativity either good or bad,, makes me just think the person is a.... 'wellwhateveryouwannacallit'.
If using some competence in handling people one can ask leading questions and then lead the person in the directions one want them to go.
In this case Frits vomits negativity all over me, all before he actually knows anything about my design.
That´s just lame if you ask me, and all flavoured in dictatorship.

Rgds

[SwePatrick]

i knurled it like a dyno jet roller , at least 10 hours work to do lol .

Hehe,, took me 12hrs to mill the roller for me *lol*
Had to go slow as this was about absolute maximum my old mill could take.

Rgds

[SwePatrick]

I would have thought a mirror polished surface would have been better than grooves, something the rubber can adhere to. After all, in a tyre it isn't the tread that grips the road but the rubber, hence slicks for racing.

Actually no, you want ridges to have the rubber being able to 'grab' something.
Many people have been using polished rollers, and they all seem to have problems with traction.
This results in having the bike/car strapped down really hard, deforming the tires a lot.
And that is really dangerous.
And gives you erratic numbers as the tire takes a lot of power in the process.
I did a fast test before i did any full pulls.
I was carefully to begin with so i strapped my bike quite hard.
I lost about 10hp, i made more pulls and strapped the bike looser and looser.
And finally figured out i didn´t need to strap the bike downwards at all.
I just strap it on front wheel and in sideways at rear wheel.
I need to sit in the seat ofcourse to make 'lifelike' situation when doing a pull.


Rgds

[WilDun]

Yes.. but there are better ways to get people to listen.
Negativity either good or bad,, makes me just think the person is a.... 'wellwhateveryouwannacallit'.
If using some competence in handling people one can ask leading questions and then lead the person in the directions one want them to go.
Rgds

Well, no doubt, he trained as an engineer not as an engineering psychologist, however I believe he might have been wanting to warn those amongst us (including myself) with a lesser knowledge of engineering maths etc. about all the stresses involved and to seek out someone who would understand all this, to be his mentor, as opposed to just copying what they saw in pictures, guessing sizes, materials etc,
Any "whateveryouwannacallit", or "fuckwit" (as we say down here) :laugh: is capable of building one of these things, but does he understand the forces he may be dealing with?

Now, having got all that off my chest, your efforts so far have actually quite impressed me - but I do hope that you don't end up as a mural on the ceiling to remind others that life is precious ........ good luck with the project.

[Frits Overmars]

If using some competence in handling people one can ask leading questions and then lead the person in the directions one want them to go.Patrick, I never claimed any competence in handling people. And if you wish to be mad at me because of the way I expressed my concern, so be it.
Now I have two leading questions for you. How did you calculate the maximum safe rpm for your roller? And what was the outcome?

[adegnes]

Coming along!
Peak power is still more of a waving flat spot than a peak, more to be had!
More timing and jetting + switchable powerjet next.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pW11vI4rHI

[SwePatrick]

I had help with calculating, but a comparison you could think about is an oxygenebottle.
They burst at ca 5500psi, or ca 350bar pressure.
They got 1/4" thickness in material, seamless tube.

Can´t remember the formula but we were calculating the force pushing the tube i´ve got (1 inch thickness, seamless)
If it was a gasbottle it would easily take 22000psi of internal pressure before bursting(~1500bar)
Kg and bar is almost the same pressure when having it press on a scale.

Anyway, to get the concrete to get up in that insane pressure(pressure on the tube is almost, if not the same pressure as a weight pushing from inside) you need to place a blastcharge inside and set it off ;)
As the concrete has minimum diam of 60mm and maximum of 250mm one need a quite complicated formula that i need to get from my friend at Chalmers.

And, this 2% i was talking about, did i ever say i locked it into the roller, 100% sealed?
Nope i didn´t, you see.
To get the concrete to fully burn, i need to evacuate the excess water, and what did ya know, i left air holes at the sides of the roller.
And,, what did ya know number 2, the concrete didn´t ferment(word?) into the holes at all, funny enough.
But it has a logical explanation, the water took some space also......

However, if calculating a 1kg mass at 125mm radius at 4000rpm.
I get ~2236kg of centrifugal mass, but this is not the correct way, as it is like a 1kg ball(body) rotating at 4000rpm in 125mm radius.
In this case i got a body rotating around it´s own axle.

And if i remember correctly, it came back to me while writing all this 'nonsense' above, 90kg mass rotating around it´s own axle in 4000rpm with 125mm radius will have 201kgf

Rgds.

[TZ350]

Page 1640........


If there's a gear running on a bush on the shaft, you will need an internal feed too...Found this with GSXR boxes, the bush for 3rd in the middle of the 6 speed 750 box was the weak spot. Up the feed to it and you could put the 750 box in an 1100.
But of course it's an old box too....


The Mercedes Aux pump, the lads in the uk swear by them
this is possibly a bit heavy http://www.xylemflowcontrol.com/marine-and-rv/circulation-pumps/50840-series-low-pressure-cyclone-centrifugal-pump.htm range rover one does 4 yankie gallons per minute http://www.ebay.com/itm/BOSCH-AUXILLIARY-OEM-WATER-PUMP-0392022002-SUPERCHARGED-RANGE-ROVER-AND-SPORT-/390921934182?fits=Make%3AFord%7CSubmodel%3ALightni ng&hash=item5b04c35566:g:zi8AAOSwDk5T~gH0&vxp=mtr


that heavy one is about 1200 NZD
this one although small output is smaller draw and lighter and made for hot water
http://www.lusty-blundell.co.nz/afawcs0130944/CATID=58/SUBID=425/ID=4167/SID=55129885/productdetails.html
http://www.condorpumps.com/core/media/media.nl/id.98317/c.3819277/.f?h=a001f73c7967706d5026


They are 12 volt variable speed about 50-60 liters/min peak and will need a controller to work at peak efficiency.

http://www.miataturbo.net/engine-performance-56/bmw-pierburg-electric-waterpump-controller-69420/

328056328057


My $50 intercooler pump has been the bastion of reliability. Wish I'd found it earlier

http://m.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-12V-DC-Water-Coolant-Pump-For-Radiator-Intercooler-SuperCharger-/271976332382?hash=item3f530d7c5e%3Ag%3AyTYAAOSw0Jp V6Sqj&_trkparms=pageci%253Ae9ba059c-dee8-11e6-a8c4-74dbd1805048%257Cparentrq%253Abaf3def81590a7854edb c630ffb0e7b2%257Ciid%253A4


https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130079948#post1130079948

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=The-Complete-Guide-to-Intercooling-Part-2-&A=107760
Subaru

or different syle to earlier smaller aux one i posted bmw http://prussianmotors.com/empower/images/inv_002617.jpg

BMW-x5-4-4i-4-6is-4-8is-

Pierburg specs http://armtek.ru/downloads/pg_.pdf

plug for pierburg

328085

different flow rates

328086

discussion around various pumps

http://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/411058-intercooler-pump-you-didn-t-know-about-5.html


Mercedes e-klass circulationpump:

https://www.google.se/search?q=mercedes+e-klass+cirkulationspump&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ--i9r9DRAhVC3CwKHdCSCqEQ_AUICCgB&biw=1280&bih=655#imgrc=_



328062

Thanks for the suggestions. I now have a couple of these coming, not sure how good they are but will give them a try. Big issue is current draw, I am not sure what it is for these, but hopefully small, as I have limited current reserves from the engines alternator, 2-3 amps is all there is to spare.
I have measured several of these kind, and they all were between 0,8 and 1,5 amps. I think you should be fine.

Great selection of 12 Volt water pumps.


is that the same one as this bosch ? says its 1 kg and 20 l/m

http://www.frozenboost.com/liquid-air-adapter/water-to-air-pump-0392022002-p-1001.html

http://www.siliconeintakes.com/images/product/BOSCH-0392022002.pdf


found this test of a few small pumps including the bosch. problem with some other pumps is I think they require higher than 3a and they can be well over 200usd

http://www.lingenfelter.com/forum_lingenfelter/forum/lingenfelter-forum/camaro-gen-5-2010-2013/1191-intercooler-pump-flow-testing-results


Would it be easier and possibly less expensive in the long run to buy a Davies Craig pump and possibly the controller too?

http://daviescraig.com.au/electric-water-pumps


As is this bosch one

http://www.metricmind.com/products/bosch-pa-66-gf-30/

http://www.bosch-ibusiness.com/boaawapuocs/category/PAD/314/product/643?locale=en_GB

Mechanical Oil pumps.


An FZR250 oil pump might be used as well. Completely self contained with in/out ports and a drive shaft. They bolt to the engines just in front of the drive sprocket. The water pump piggy backs on the oil pump. Could be fitted with a simple adaptor for the oil lines and possibly electrically driven.


Also look at the Honda ATVs and scooters, as a lot of them have oil pumps that are chain driven off of a doubled-up cam chain sprocket or a dedicated sprocket on the other side of the crankshaft.

My notes show an XR185/200 oil pump at 1.76:1 reduction (21 drive, 35 driven) is claimed to pump 4.0 L/minute at 8000 RPM, a CB100/125 is 2.4 L/M @ 10000 RPM, the horrid plunger oil pump on a CB175 twin is 3.6 L/M @ 10000. A CM250 twin has the same rotors as an XR185 but 15mm wide instead of 10mm and a 20/40 drive/driven reduction. Honda reuses a lot of the same rotor sets with various gearing changes.

cheers,
Michael


The CRF50 and its many derivatives has a natty little gear pump with a tab drive that could easily be driven on the unused kickstart gear and idler setup.
328213328214

On another topic the plenum
Kawasaki Disc valve engines had these
328217
328215
328216


Have a look at the little Honda 4T single oil pump - CB100 upwards. Narrow gerotor pump which could be driven by an oldham coupling or similar off the end of a gearbox shaft. Heaps of them around too. Minimal power loss I'd think.


Look at toyota car gearbox, in some of those there´s an internal pump to circulate oil and in GT4´s circulate it into an radiator.

http://s227.photobucket.com/user/jesiotrot/media/ben/S1031386.jpg.html

You can pull out the gear as it is married to the shaft, and replace the shaft with 'what ever you like'.

Rgds


TZ,

With your Fabrication skills I'm sure you could duplicate most of the components.

http://www.pingelonline.com/air-shifters/803-premium-air-kit-with-1-handlebar-control.asp

[SwePatrick]

dealing with?

Now, having got all that off my chest, your efforts so far have actually quite impressed me - but I do hope that you don't end up as a mural on the ceiling to remind others that life is precious ........ good luck with the project.

Thank´s =)
I was actually away yesterday buyin some more material for the dyno to add this safety i was talking about.
But at this point, my dragracer is only geared for 150km/h so i´m still quite safe.
In the future there might be an another story thou ;)

[TZ350]

However, if calculating a 1kg mass at 1285mm radius at 4000rpm

Interesting, I am trying to make sence of it all. it will be interesting to see if the numbers eventuall tell us if concreat is a viable method of adding mass.

[SwePatrick]

TZ350, it became an error in your quote, not 1285mm radius, only 125mm ;)

[TZ350]

Sorry SwePatric, I made the post from my phone, hard work, and easy to make editing mistake, sorry.

Anyway it would be good to develop the maths that would allow people to see if concrete would make a viable mass filler (or not) for their dyno steel drum. I once did a lot of work with epoxy impregnating and getting the air out was always the challenge. I wonder if using the suction from a vacuum cleaner would draw the air bubbles out of the concrete. The way it worked with epoxy was that the reduced pressure allowed the trapped air bubbles to expand and float free and work their way to the surface, it might work for concrete too. But if you lowered the pressure over the epoxy to much and hit its vapor pressure the epoxy boiled, you wouldn't want to boil the water out of the concrete.

[SwePatrick]

I vibrated it for about 2-3minutes.
I using concrete in buildings you need to vibrate one cubic meter roughly 15minutes depending on what concrete and what vibrator.
The bigger the 'rocks' in the concrete the harder to vibrate it.
If you did a good job vibrating the concrete you should have lost about 99% of the trapped air inside, it´s actually that effective :)

And a minor airpocket isn´t to spend much time to think about, it will just be compensated for when balancing.
By that i mean, small trapped airbubbles like 1-2mm big, nothing to care about.

In my case, i didn´t use the concrete as an 'inertiaadder', that was just a bonus.
I wanted to make the roller 'dead' and not make or transfer vibrations.
But if you want to make more inertia with filament you can use concrete and blend it with shotblasting 'steel sand', but here´s a bigger risk to get it more uneven filled.
But in the end, it still add very little as the closer to centrum of roller the less inertia it adds.


Rgds

[Peiter]

Hi swePatrick,

If you are interested in truly calculating the exact stress instead of "gut feeling", in the following link you can find most of the necessary equations.
http://www.roymech.co.uk/Useful_Tables/Mechanics/Rotating_cylinders.html

I would first calculate the tangential stress of your concrete "disc" and then combine this stress with the results from the "hollow steel disc".
Next, compare it to the material properties of your used material and add quite some "worst case" safety due to possible stress peaks / fatique problems at the milled grooves.

I'll happily provide you with feedback if you decide to make these calculations :)

[Frits Overmars]

if you want to make more inertia with filament you can use concrete and blend it with shotblasting 'steel sand'If you give advice like that, you should also tell what the safe maximum rpm is and how much surrounding steel is required to keep everything together.
Patrick, I don't want to continue the argument, but whilst you may know what you're doing, others may not.
That alone is the reason I tried to discourage the use of non-structural materials as inertia-enhancers. Apparently I failed.

[SwePatrick]

I do live in some sort of way that i hope that someone that starts a project like this will give it some thought, cause in the middle of building, you will have to.

Let´s just say like this: you overdramatisizes it.
An fairly ordinary function of jealous internetpeople sadly enough.
And i couldn´t care less, I´m no selftitled internetguru of buidling dynos.
You can choose going my way, you can also choose to not, not my problem.

Bye bye.

[Sketchy_Racer]

.....
Let´s just say like this: you overdramatisizes it.
......



No, Frits does not "over dramatize" the matter at all. You have built a potential lethal weapon regardless of your friends "calcs". It is entirely irresponsible for you to discredit anyone's input in regards to safety.

[Niels Abildgaard]

If concrete expands a little during solidification no calcultion is worth a life or two.The steel will be prestressed an unknown amount and concrete is not very good in tension.
In my case I would spin it with an AC motor and VFD to something like1.6 times maximum expected rpm before each run and keep children,dogs and poultry out of combat zone.

[WilDun]

It's good to do all this stuff yourself and there is a lot of satisfaction to be gained from it! - If it works well and you are still alive, that's great, then you can use all your photos to demonstrate how it was done - it doesn't matter when it actually was done and as far as any readers are concerned it is just the same to them as a work in progress.

I don't think that Frits is jealous at all, why would he be? he has achieved a lot over the years by studying things, he is always diplomatic and the fact that he feels he should speak up on safety is to be commended, rather than be ridiculed.

When you are in your fifties, I guarantee you will think differently and I would like you to come and say the same stuff to me then ......... Oh yeah- hang on ......... I will be pushing up the daisies by then, so I'll never know ( unless of course you have been propelled at high speed into hell by that infernal machine), where we'll probably meet up! :laugh:

Again, good luck with the project - I tended not to listen to others when I was young but just now and then I wish I had! :facepalm:

[SwePatrick]

It's good to do all this stuff yourself and there is a lot of satisfaction to be gained from it! - If it works well and you are still alive, that's great, then you can use all your photos to demonstrate how it was done - it doesn't matter when it actually was done and as far as any readers are concerned it is just the same to them as a work in progress.

I don't think that Frits is jealous at all, why would he be? he has achieved a lot over the years by studying things, he is always diplomatic and the fact that he feels he should speak up on safety is to be commended, rather than be ridiculed.

When you are in your fifties, I guarantee you will think differently and I would like you to come and say the same stuff to me then ......... Oh yeah- hang on ......... I will be pushing up the daisies by then, so I'll never know ( unless of course you have been propelled at high speed into hell by that infernal machine), where we'll probably meet up! :laugh:

Again, good luck with the project - I tended not to listen to others when I was young but just now and then I wish I had! :facepalm:

First things first, i´m not a youngster that don´t listen.
I´m 46 years old.
I have been studying this a lot before poured concrete into my roller, and i beg everyone to do so also, but still i take NO responsibility.
There are rollers out there on the market filled with concrete, they were sold by professional companies, that has thinner tubewalls than mine.
But when people says to me without any data that 'that won´t work, you will/might die' i actually don´t take them seriously, i´ll add them to the 'trollfolder' in my brain.
Loose conclusions about a thing or a human is about the worst thing i know of.
And it doesn´t matter even if it was god himself that made the statement.
Playing hockey/fotball from the spectatorseat is so very easy.

And again, the concrete might expand 2% yes!
But that makes up for the water that has been lost when concrete is burning.
I have never locked the water in an perfect seal, one need to let that go away, otherwise your concrete will be bad, and also by that the concrete had a chance to ferment without adding stress to the tube.
And it was stated that my balancerguy need to protect himself.
Well, let me just say this: you don´t rev the roller or crankshaft anymore than about 500rpm in balancermachine to get it balanced to ISO1940/1 standards.
Can´t see any problems there.

There´s a lot of statements done on the web today, with no clue of reality or none hours spent to study the facts, just peoples minds and horrific visions colouring their statements on the web, to satisfy them when seeing people create something they need to add a lot of negativity.

I was about to link to pages that shows some formulas, but Peiter was ahead of me, thanks =)

One thing came out of this debacle, i will build my own dynamic balancer, and still using same rig i have built for the roller.
With minor mods i can balance it to Grade G2.5 at home.

Rgds.

[speedpro]

If concrete expands a little during solidification no calcultion is worth a life or two.The steel will be prestressed an unknown amount and concrete is not very good in tension.
In my case I would spin it with an AC motor and VFD to something like1.6 times maximum expected rpm before each run and keep children,dogs and poultry out of combat zone.

You'd have to video it of course, from a distance.

[WilDun]

First things first, i´m not a youngster that don´t listen.
I´m 46 years old..
Yes, about the age of my kids, - I still can't help the feeling I need to be responsible for them! :laugh: sorry about that!


I have been studying this a lot before poured concrete into my roller, and i beg everyone to do so also, but still i take NO responsibility..

Yes, I can see that you have given it a lot of thought, - but we are always responsible for anything which might affect someone else, even though they made the decision.


One thing came out of this debacle, i will build my own dynamic balancer, and still using same rig i have built for the roller.
With minor mods i can balance it to Grade G2.5 at home..

Hardly a "debacle" is it? - just a slightly warm discussion! :msn-wink: but I do applaud you for at least explaining your position and also for your effort in building this machine. - Keep going and keep letting us know how you get on.

I am one of those people you talk about, who is just an onlooker, with no specialized knowledge, however a little bit wary (from my own experiences in "hands on" engineering) of what life can throw at you.
Perhaps I'm a little "past it" and have been retired for quite some time, but I am still keenly interested in and like to see things like this being done. :niceone:

[Niels Abildgaard]

And it was stated that my balancerguy need to protect himself.
Well, let me just say this: you don´t rev the roller or crankshaft anymore than about 500rpm in balancermachine to get it balanced to ISO1940/1 standards.
Can´t see any problems there.



Rgds.

I can se a problem maybe.

The balancing machine is made for balancing and this can probably be made satisfactory at 500 rpm or lower.What is dangerous is not unbalance but that the steel pipe with longitudinal scars suddenly want to open up when you go 150 km wich gives more than 300 to 500 rpm.I is not an easy job to calculate bursting speed of Your construction.

[SwePatrick]

I can se a problem maybe.

The balancing machine is made for balancing and this can probably be made satisfactory at 500 rpm or lower.What is dangerous is not unbalance but that the steel pipe with longitudinal scars suddenly want to open up when you go 150 km wich gives more than 300 to 500 rpm.I is not an easy job to calculate bursting speed of Your construction.

This picture says about 1000 words ;)

http://www.jkm.org.uk/performance/Misc/Tech/Dyno%20Testing/dynofrontdrum.gif

[FastFred]

.

Looking Good. .... :niceone:

[F5 Dave]

That's certainly more substantial than I had in my mind esp if I had a mind to build one.
Don't assume that people following the path will have a real understanding of the consequences of action. I don't know what I don't know esp about concrete at speed. I'd be a danger with a little knowledge.

[WilDun]

This picture says about 1000 words ;)

That does put things in perspective I must say - and with the reinforcing in the middle (which we can't see) it all seems good to me - I wouldn't be clever enough to say definitely without proper calcs, but let's just wait and see, I feel the outcome will be all good.

[marsheng]

Interesting reading. I to looked at a drum filled with concrete, but I would have put gussets inside the drum to strengthen it and then filled it with concrete.

I was lucky and found a 700mm diameter by 2500 mm long steam drum from a cardboard factory which I now use. It is around 12 mm thick and 700 kg. It really does work well. I had a chap come out and dynamically balance it and there are some quite huge blocks added to the ends to get it right. Runs sweet now.

On our buckets or 20 hp and a few other bikes I feel quite safe using it. However over 50 hp, not all all. I have huge bearings and large bolts holding this down to a concrete floor, but at 160KPH or so, if something went wrong and it came loose, I be picking up the pieces 5 km down the road. It has a huge potential energy at 160KPH. Not for the feint hearted.

I have decided in order to run the higher power motors I have to add load to the whole system other than inertial.

I have purchased 4 x 285mm vented disk brakes, calipers and a control system and am busy setting this up now. The idea is to add load to the drum in a linear fashion so I can still do an inertia type run but in first gear rather than 4 or 6. The brakes making up the extra load.

This whole process cuts down on the potential energy stored in the drum at high speed.

The other plus is I can hold a steady load and make change to the ignition and fuel mixture and see the effect. I think it is the only way with 2 strokes in getting them up to running temperature under load.

Hope to have it running in the next 2 weeks.

[oldjohnno]

There's an entire thread devoted solely to DIY Dynos here: https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/178284-DIY-dyno
Might be the best place for dyno discussion.

[ken seeber]

Below is an excerpt from:

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/motogp/after-117-years-triumph-s-first-gp-win

"Honda’s CBR600 has powered Moto2 since its inaugural 2010 season, but the 600 is nearing the end of its shelf life, so the class needs a new engine. Many alternatives were considered, including a return to 250 two-strokes, with a 250cc v-twin version of the Suter 500 V4.

Triumph's new 765cc triple that will power Moto2 from 2019
A 750 (in fact 765cc) makes a lot of sense because Moto2’s job is to get riders ready for 260 horsepower MotoGP bikes, so they need to learn to spin the rear tyre and use the throttle to steer. This season Moto2 gets traction control and other rider aids for the first time, because riders also need to learn about electronics before they graduate to the premier class. Traction control isn’t really required by a 125bhp 600 but it will come in handy with a 160 horsepower 765."

So close yet so far.

Better get it ready for next time Fletto. :psst:

[SwePatrick]

Interesting reading. I to looked at a drum filled with concrete, but I would have put gussets inside the drum to strengthen it and then filled it with concrete.

I was lucky and found a 700mm diameter by 2500 mm long steam drum from a cardboard factory which I now use. It is around 12 mm thick and 700 kg. It really does work well. I had a chap come out and dynamically balance it and there are some quite huge blocks added to the ends to get it right. Runs sweet now.

On our buckets or 20 hp and a few other bikes I feel quite safe using it. However over 50 hp, not all all. I have huge bearings and large bolts holding this down to a concrete floor, but at 160KPH or so, if something went wrong and it came loose, I be picking up the pieces 5 km down the road. It has a huge potential energy at 160KPH. Not for the feint hearted.

I have decided in order to run the higher power motors I have to add load to the whole system other than inertial.

I have purchased 4 x 285mm vented disk brakes, calipers and a control system and am busy setting this up now. The idea is to add load to the drum in a linear fashion so I can still do an inertia type run but in first gear rather than 4 or 6. The brakes making up the extra load.

This whole process cuts down on the potential energy stored in the drum at high speed.

The other plus is I can hold a steady load and make change to the ignition and fuel mixture and see the effect. I think it is the only way with 2 strokes in getting them up to running temperature under load.

Hope to have it running in the next 2 weeks.

I don´t know what 'gussets' are. i googled it and it said 'wedges'.
In my roller i have a steelsupport inside at the middle that are welded to the roller and then a bushing is pressed between it and the axle.

This support is 60mm thick and drilled through from side to side to let the concrete 'grip' the roller and also when i was casting, let it expand through it.

[shnaggs]

Anybody see this before?

https://technologyelevatedco.com/reed-less-intake/tec-reed-less-intake-valve-first-thoughts/

[adegnes]

Anybody see this before?

https://technologyelevatedco.com/reed-less-intake/tec-reed-less-intake-valve-first-thoughts/

Interesting!

[breezy]

Anybody see this before?

https://technologyelevatedco.com/reed-less-intake/tec-reed-less-intake-valve-first-thoughts/

im no expert, but it looks flow restrictive:shutup:

[jfn2]

Yes, if you look at the second pic..
https://technologyelevatedco.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Reedless_Intake_21.jpg
you will see what is known as a fluid diode, one on top and one on the bottom. This is how this inlet is made to work. Eran Sher and John Heywood, in their book.. The Two Stroke Cycle Engine SAE R-267 and SAE paper #830092 explain how these would work in the transfer ports to prevent backflow into the crankcase. I would be interested to hear how this works and just how hard starting the engine would be. I would also like to see it on a flow bench.

[Grumph]

I don´t know what 'gussets' are. i googled it and it said 'wedges'.
In my roller i have a steelsupport inside at the middle that are welded to the roller and then a bushing is pressed between it and the axle.

This support is 60mm thick and drilled through from side to side to let the concrete 'grip' the roller and also when i was casting, let it expand through it.

Relax - you've done exactly what he would have if he used concrete as a filler.

English can be annoying...Gussets are actually wedges cut out of material in dressmaking ( I've never seen Wallace in a dress...) But in an engineering context they are reinforcing pieces usually added in corners - hence wedge shaped.
Strictly speaking what you've done is added a bulkhead inside your tube.

[F5 Dave]

No no, they come with sour cream, a spicy coating and if you're lucky cheese and bacon.

[marsheng]

An example of a gusset is the triangular piece used to strengthen the joint between to tubes on a motorcycle frame.
http://www.vintagemongoose.com/frame/gussets.php

We have do a lot of talking about tubes and concrete, but although that is an issue and it seems that the homework has been done, I'm more worried about the other issues, bearing capacity, the possibility of over heading at high speed and collapsing and the floor frame mount. The inertia in the drum is huge.

I'm sure that everyone has see this the bridge break in the 1940's. All the calculations were correct, bridge was good, but they forgot to take the wind into account.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QNV3So7GM

See my signature.

PS The Chinese are building a bridge between Hong Kong to Macau that is 35 km long and over the sea !!!

Cheers Wallace

[SwePatrick]

An example of a gusset is the triangular piece used to strengthen the joint between to tubes on a motorcycle frame.
http://www.vintagemongoose.com/frame/gussets.php

We have do a lot of talking about tubes and concrete, but although that is an issue and it seems that the homework has been done, I'm more worried about the other issues, bearing capacity, the possibility of over heading at high speed and collapsing and the floor frame mount. The inertia in the drum is huge.

I'm sure that everyone has see this the bridge break in the 1940's. All the calculations were correct, bridge was good, but they forgot to take the wind into account.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QNV3So7GM

See my signature.

PS The Chinese are building a bridge between Hong Kong to Macau that is 35 km long and over the sea !!!

Cheers Wallace


The bearings i use has:
Dynamic Load Capacity: 11800 lb.(5352kg)
Static Load Capacity: 8100 lb.(3674kg)
If having imbalance the load will increase more than static weight of roller.
These bearing are used often in much bigger systems than mine, also with longer rollers.
The main frame holding the roller has 50x50x5 beams, and 10mm plates under the bearingcarriers to spread out the load over a bigger area.
Then the upper frame witch i´ll use to cover the roller has smaller measurements as it is just for the sheetmetal and triangulating the main frame.
I´ve been looking at a lot of dynos and copied some ideas.

At the ends of roller inside of bearing there will be a securityadding 'hoop' to catch roller if something goes wrong.
These 'hoops' will almost touch the axles to not allow the roller to build up speed in any direction if a bearing brakes.
There will also be 'hoops' around the roller underneeth the sheetmetal.
The sheetmetal itself will also add security as i will use high grade steel and about 3mm thick.

Rgds.

Edit:
Take a look at this site: http://www.dynomet.dk/en_diydynoparts.htm
He builds less rigid frame then mine, i feel secure :)

[husaberg]

Anybody see this before?

https://technologyelevatedco.com/reed-less-intake/tec-reed-less-intake-valve-first-thoughts/


Interesting!


im no expert, but it looks flow restrictive:shutup:

It's a Telsa Valve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYlP5TEKf2w

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozFBsMyyDSE

[tjbw]

im no expert, but it looks flow restrictive:shutup:

I think it could outflow a reed valve ....

during the expansion stroke ;)

Frits posted his design for a turned Tesla valve here:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/171300-Oddball-engines-and-prototypes/page64

[SwePatrick]

Try to kickstart a big cc twostroke fast enough to get that valve to work,, good luck ;)

[shnaggs]

Yup, the Tesla valve was the first thing I thought of when I stumbled on this. I always had the thought to try and see if it would be feasible in a 2 stroke, but I kept drawing them and they always looked flow restrictive on paper. I guess time will tell if this thing actually works.

[oldjohnno]

Maybe I'm cynical but to me that Tesla valve just looks like something that would stifle flow in one direction by creating significant turbulence. And in the other direction it would create a whole lot more.

[ken seeber]

I agree with all of the above AND the fact that it has been around for at least a cuppla years. If it was a winner, then everyone would know and be clamouring to get one.

Still, would like to be proven wrong, as there is some elegance to it and there are other areas within an engine where the principle could be applied.

[EssexNick]

Might be useful in transfer passages, if they could be made to flow enough, given the space available.

[TZ350]

.
Back to working on the EFI project.

328055

I kept having problems with the original 12Volt water pump and eventually it burnt out. So I found this little beauty lying around the workshop and plumbed it in for a temporary fix. The unkind suggested I put a skate board under it and ride the outfit in the side car class. The up side with the 12V pump being temperamental was that I found the engine boils up nicely without any damage, did it quite a few times.

328054

28rwhp @ 12k rpm, not bad for a un ported MC21 Honda NSR cylinder on a Suzuki GP100 bottom end with a de stroked crank (48mm stroke for 110cc), and a Kawasaki KE175 rotary valve which opens 135 deg BTDC and closes 65 deg ATDC, mild as.

A reliable water cooled all day, never fade 28hp should be fun.

[adegnes]

.
Back to working on the EFI project.

328055

I kept having problems with the original 12Volt water pump and eventually it burnt out. So I found this little beauty lying around the workshop and plumbed it in for a temporary fix. The unkind suggested I put a skate board under it and ride the outfit in the side car class. The up side with the 12V pump being temperamental was that I found the engine boils up nicely without any damage, did it quite a few times.

328054

28rwhp @ 12k rpm, not bad for a standard un ported MC21 Honda NSR cylinder on a Suzuki GP100 bottom end with a de stroked crank (48mm stroke for 110cc), and a Kawasaki KE175 rotary valve which opens 135 deg BTDC and closes 65 deg ATDC, mild as.

A reliable water cooled all day, never fade 28hp should be fun.

:2thumbsup :2thumbsup

I once did the same thing with a large aquarium pump.

[husaberg]

.
Back to working on the EFI project.

328055

I kept having problems with the original 12Volt water pump and eventually it burnt out. So I found this little beauty lying around the workshop and plumbed it in for a temporary fix. The unkind suggested I put a skate board under it and ride the outfit in the side car class. The up side with the 12V pump being temperamental was that I found the engine boils up nicely without any damage, did it quite a few times.

328054

.

If you ask sidecar bob nicely he might give you a BMW one for exchange of some brown bubbly or similar, they are 12 volt variable speed about 50-60 liters/min peak and will need a conroller to work at peak efficiency.
On the beemers they get replaced fairly regular as they have had some issues with them.
http://www.miataturbo.net/engine-performance-56/bmw-pierburg-electric-waterpump-controller-69420/
328056328057

[TALLIS]

.
Back to working on the EFI project.

A reliable water cooled all day, never fade 28hp should be fun.
Great work rob, can't wait to see it at the track! Don't put any fast buggers on it.

[F5 Dave]

My $50 intercooler pump has been the bastion of reliability. Wish I'd found it earlier

Bit like this. . . golly that's got expensive. Still. . .


http://m.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-12V-DC-Water-Coolant-Pump-For-Radiator-Intercooler-SuperCharger-/271976332382?hash=item3f530d7c5e%3Ag%3AyTYAAOSw0Jp V6Sqj&_trkparms=pageci%253Ae9ba059c-dee8-11e6-a8c4-74dbd1805048%257Cparentrq%253Abaf3def81590a7854edb c630ffb0e7b2%257Ciid%253A4

[husaberg]

My $50 intercooler pump has been the bastion of reliability. Wish I'd found it earlier

Bit like this. . . golly that's got expensive. Still. . .


http://m.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-12V-DC-Water-Coolant-Pump-For-Radiator-Intercooler-SuperCharger-/271976332382?hash=item3f530d7c5e%3Ag%3AyTYAAOSw0Jp V6Sqj&_trkparms=pageci%253Ae9ba059c-dee8-11e6-a8c4-74dbd1805048%257Cparentrq%253Abaf3def81590a7854edb c630ffb0e7b2%257Ciid%253A4

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130079948#post1130079948
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=The-Complete-Guide-to-Intercooling-Part-2-&A=107760
Subaru

or different syle to earlier smaller aux one i posted bmw
http://prussianmotors.com/empower/images/inv_002617.jpg
BMW-x5-4-4i-4-6is-4-8is-
Pierburg specs
http://armtek.ru/downloads/pg_.pdf
plug for pierburg
328085

diferent flow rates
328086

discussion around various pumps
http://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/411058-intercooler-pump-you-didn-t-know-about-5.html

[SwePatrick]

Mercedes e-klass circulationpump:

https://www.google.se/search?q=mercedes+e-klass+cirkulationspump&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjQ--i9r9DRAhVC3CwKHdCSCqEQ_AUICCgB&biw=1280&bih=655#imgrc=_

[TZ350]

328062

Thanks for the suggestions. I now have a couple of these coming, not sure how good they are but will give them a try. Big issue is current draw, I am not sure what it is for these, but hopefully small, as I have limited current reserves from the engines alternator, 2-3 amps is all there is to spare.

[TZ350]

Don't put any fast buggers on it.

Wooops, thanks to Ken Seebers generosity :niceone: Chambers has the doings for a very special, special he is building for Av.

[WilDun]

Frits,
Don't go away! - you are needed here and if you see Wobbly tell him that he's needed too! - that's an order!!

[Frits Overmars]

I kept having problems with the original 12Volt water pump and eventually it burnt out. So I found this little beauty lying around the workshop and plumbed it in for a temporary fix.In the olden days we used car heater radiators and car heater pumps on our 50 cc racers and we were glad if we could keep the water temperature 'down' to 70°C. Today we try get the temp down to 40°C; radiators have tripled in size and electric pumps have been replaced by engine-driven pumps in all but the smallest engines.
In case you want to (or need to) use an electric pump, the intercooler pump is the best option.


The up side with the 12V pump being temperamental was that I found the engine boils up nicely without any damage, did it quite a few times.It probably happened to all of us at one time or another. But there is a typical form of damage that you may not notice at first sight:
the piston ring may have become so hot that it lost a good deal of its tension, resulting in reluctant starting and an inexplicable loss of power.

[Frits Overmars]

Frits, Don't go away! - you are needed here and if you see Wobbly tell him that he's needed too! - that's an order!!Yessir!
Which reminds me of the drill sergeant shouting: "Private Jones, I didn't see you at the camouflage drill yesterday!", to which Jones responded: "Thank you Sir!"

Fact is, I've been on tour, conferring with the experts at Addinol, Germany's largest producer of lubricants (just identify the oldest face in the picture below).
As for Wobbly, I gather that he too is quite busy at the moment. But hey, it's good to feel being missed :D.
328063

[ken seeber]

It's ok Willy, he's back.
Just goes to show that Addinol does a lot of viscosity testing at sub zero temperatures. Clearly beanie country.
Also shows that there is a big range of experience in the team. :msn-wink:

[Haufen]

328062

Thanks for the suggestions. I now have a couple of these coming, not sure how good they are but will give them a try. Big issue is current draw, I am not sure what it is for these but hopefully small as I have limited current reserves from the engines alternator, 2-3 amps is all there is to spare.

I have measured several of these kind, and they all were between 0,8 and 1,5 amps. I think you should be fine.

[adegnes]

I have measured several of these kind, and they all were between 0,8 and 1,5 amps. I think you should be fine.

Same experience here. And the ones I've used flowed about 20l/m if I remember correctly. Think I posted a "test" a while back.

[Haufen]

Out of curiosity, what would be a typical range of BSFC figures for a racing two-stroke on petrol? 0.6ish?


Johnno,
I would reckon that if a racing 2 stroke "on tune" got better than 300 gm/kWhr (0.5 lbs/hphr) then it’d be doing well. Your 0.6 might be closer to the mark.
It’s probably not a matter of charge loss, but a lot more fuel to maintain temperatures.
Agree though, it’d be great to see a full load vs speed plot of BSFC, as would the same for air flow. Both for a race engine, but also for a less tuned engine.
Looking at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_specific_fuel_consumption and knowing this is a few years old, and the way that every new high tech engine which comes out is 30% better than the previous engine, we’d (or they’d) have to be close to the 200 gm/kwhr

oldkenno :yes:

Here you go. This is from a simulation of a fictional 144cc engine I once did, 12ish BMEP, max. power around 12500, reed intake with 38mm carb, no powervalve, AFR 12,5 in every rpm. BSFC at full load:
328065

and here's the Delivery Ratio (black) and the Trapping Efficiency (red) of the same engine, also at full load.
328064

Typical best point BSFC of today's car engines is just above 200 g/kWh for diesel engines and between 230 and 245 for most gasoline engines. Experimental 4-stroke gasoline engines have already gotten below 200 g/kWh (as should current F1 engines I suppose). When comparing to the two-stroke above, keep in mind that full load BSFC values of these engines are usually higher (a bit for the diesel, and a bit more for the gasoline engine (%-wise)). I have not tried to simulate for best point BSFC on the two-stroke engine above, but might do it one day out of interest (e.g. part throttle, running lambda 1 or leaner, optimized compression ratio and so on).

[oldjohnno]

Thank you Haufen and Ken for your replies. I'd always suspected that the figures might be higher than that based on the generally awful fuel consumption of two stroke street bikes that I've had. But then again, a street bike spends most of its life lightly loaded at part throttle, so this might be where a 2T's specific consumption is at its highest. I'm doing some dyno testing at the moment; if I have time I'll set up some sort of graduated fuel container and record the figures.

[breezy]

.
Back to working on the EFI project.

328055

I kept having problems with the original 12Volt water pump and eventually it burnt out. So I found this little beauty lying around the workshop and plumbed it in for a temporary fix. The unkind suggested I put a skate board under it and ride the outfit in the side car class. The up side with the 12V pump being temperamental was that I found the engine boils up nicely without any damage, did it quite a few times.

328054

28rwhp @ 12k rpm, not bad for a un ported MC21 Honda NSR cylinder on a Suzuki GP100 bottom end with a de stroked crank (48mm stroke for 110cc), and a Kawasaki KE175 rotary valve which opens 135 deg BTDC and closes 65 deg ATDC, mild as.

A reliable water cooled all day, never fade 28hp should be fun.

great perseverance TZ ... " HE WHO DARES,,,,, WINS"......:clap:

[richban]

.

328054

28rwhp @ 12k rpm, not bad for a un ported MC21 Honda NSR cylinder on a Suzuki GP100 bottom end with a de stroked crank (48mm stroke for 110cc), and a Kawasaki KE175 rotary valve which opens 135 deg BTDC and closes 65 deg ATDC, mild as.

A reliable water cooled all day, never fade 28hp should be fun.

You may need an older (heaver) rider at the GP for that bike. I know a guy on the come back trail. :apumpin::apumpin:

[peewee]

328062

Thanks for the suggestions. I now have a couple of these coming, not sure how good they are but will give them a try. Big issue is current draw, I am not sure what it is for these, but hopefully small, as I have limited current reserves from the engines alternator, 2-3 amps is all there is to spare.

do you happen to know the weight of one of these buggers ? adegnes says they pump about 20l/m so how would that compare to the mechanical oem pump driven from the crank on the yami twin ? was thinking about a small spal fan (1.5lb= 652g) and perhaps a small electric water pump as well (assuming it would be a advantage over the mechanical pump). now I just have to some how convert my generator to DC and figure out how to wire in the fan and pump (maybe). electrical stuff isn't my specialty as you can see :lol:.

[peewee]

328062

Thanks for the suggestions. I now have a couple of these coming, not sure how good they are but will give them a try. Big issue is current draw, I am not sure what it is for these, but hopefully small, as I have limited current reserves from the engines alternator, 2-3 amps is all there is to spare.

is that the same one as this bosch ? says its 1 kg and 20 l/m http://www.frozenboost.com/liquid-air-adapter/water-to-air-pump-0392022002-p-1001.html

http://www.siliconeintakes.com/images/product/BOSCH-0392022002.pdf

[TZ350]

is that the same one as this bosch ? says its 1 kg and 20 l/m http://www.frozenboost.com/liquid-air-adapter/water-to-air-pump-0392022002-p-1001.html

I thought it was but looking at the Ebay add again it looks like my enthusiasm for saving a dollar has lead me down the garden path and I have purchased a (Chinese ?) knock off. Time will tell if its any more reliable than the last lot.

From memory, given an adequate radiator, I think the rule of thumb is a flow rate of 1L/min per hp is required to maintain an engine temperature of 40 deg C. So I fear that at 20L/min ( with no head) the Bosch and copies are going to be a little marginal for that, and I may have to settle for 50-60 deg.

[peewee]

found this test of a few small pumps including the bosch. problem with some other pumps is I think they require higher than 3a and they can be well over 200usd

http://www.lingenfelter.com/forum_lingenfelter/forum/lingenfelter-forum/camaro-gen-5-2010-2013/1191-intercooler-pump-flow-testing-results

[peewee]

while im thinking of it, anybody tried something like this ? maybe its stupid idea but could you hook one end of this cooler to the carb and put a airfilter on the other end. then use a small pump and heat exchanger. http://www.frozenboost.com/air_water-ic/barrel-water-to-air-intercoolers-p-226.html

[Michael Moore]

Would it be easier and possibly less expensive in the long run to buy a Davies Craig pump and possibly the controller too?

http://daviescraig.com.au/electric-water-pumps

[JanBros]

while im thinking of it, anybody tried something like this ? maybe its stupid idea but could you hook one end of this cooler to the carb and put a airfilter on the other end. then use a small pump and heat exchanger. http://www.frozenboost.com/air_water-ic/barrel-water-to-air-intercoolers-p-226.html

I don't thinck it will do the airflow any good :no:

[TZ350]

found this test of a few small pumps including the bosch. http://www.lingenfelter.com/forum_lingenfelter/forum/lingenfelter-forum/camaro-gen-5-2010-2013/1191-intercooler-pump-flow-testing-results

Thanks, yes that Bosch pump does not look so bad. Its max rated flow (20 l/min) is at 6 psi. At a guess I would say the head pressure of my system would be less. Maybe 2 psi and at that pressure the flow rate is near 30 l/min and current draw is < 3A.

There has been lots of good information posted about suitable pumps, thanks.

[husaberg]

while im thinking of it, anybody tried something like this ? maybe its stupid idea but could you hook one end of this cooler to the carb and put a airfilter on the other end. then use a small pump and heat exchanger. http://www.frozenboost.com/air_water-ic/barrel-water-to-air-intercoolers-p-226.html

Pewee that is a heat exchanger based on an marine oil cooler.
They can be used as a water to air intercooler their airflow restiction is not too bad but the water temp and intake temp used for a NA engine means it is irelevent.

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130079948#post1130079948
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=The-Complete-Guide-to-Intercooling-Part-2-&A=107760

Neat speed controller for Electric water pump
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_113262/article.html

[Ocean1]

while im thinking of it, anybody tried something like this ? maybe its stupid idea but could you hook one end of this cooler to the carb and put a airfilter on the other end. then use a small pump and heat exchanger. http://www.frozenboost.com/air_water-ic/barrel-water-to-air-intercoolers-p-226.html

Or see if you can find a wax with a suitably low phase change and throw the radiator and pump away.

A quick look don't look promising, though... http://www.irmwax.com/products/Phasechange_wax.aspx

Edit: or fill the wee cooler with brine, freeze it and fit it just before race?

[oldjohnno]

I don't thinck it will do the airflow any good :no:

...and while it's cooling the engine it'd be heating the intake charge.

[peewee]

Pewee that is a heat exchanger based on an marine oil cooler.
They can be used as a water to air intercooler their airflow restiction is not too bad but the water temp and intake temp used for a NA engine means it is irelevent.

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130079948#post1130079948
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=The-Complete-Guide-to-Intercooling-Part-2-&A=107760

Neat speed controller for Electric water pump
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_113262/article.html

yes I know its a water/air intercooler for a small car I suppose. wasn't sure if it could be connected directly to the carb but then you would need a pump, water, and another radiator. rather heavy system :laugh:. what about a small ice box plumbed into it ? then you could have cold air but not feasible on a small bike I guess

[wobbly]

http://bdkraceeng.co.uk/tc/products.php?293

[speedpro]

while im thinking of it, anybody tried something like this ? maybe its stupid idea but could you hook one end of this cooler to the carb and put a airfilter on the other end. then use a small pump and heat exchanger. http://www.frozenboost.com/air_water-ic/barrel-water-to-air-intercoolers-p-226.html

The whole point of these is to reduce intake charge temperature that has been raised by a compressor of some sort compressing the gas.(Boyles Law) The beauty is that they are compact and can be placed in a crowded engine bay with a remote radiator to extract heat from the water. Plus they are a lot lower volume, especially when you take into account the plumbing to a front-mount intercooler, so possibly some advantage in the time to build boost.

I don't see the benefit fitting it to a normally aspirated engine, unless you refrigerate the liquid and then lower the intake temperature. I expect there would be a small gain from that but doubt it would be worth the trouble.

[speedpro]

Would it be easier and possibly less expensive in the long run to buy a Davies Craig pump and possibly the controller too?

http://daviescraig.com.au/electric-water-pumps

I've had a good look at them. Lots of good points including magnetically coupled so no seal to leak.

[husaberg]

yes I know its a water/air intercooler for a small car I suppose. wasn't sure if it could be connected directly to the carb but then you would need a pump, water, and another radiator. rather heavy system :laugh:. what about a small ice box plumbed into it ? then you could have cold air but not feasible on a small bike I guess

A NA carb effectively cools the air intake due to the evaporation of fuel, A turbo or supercharger heats the intake due to the compression of the air prior to use.
TZs bike is a circuit bike a large and longer intake sticking out the side would be rather problematic on right handers.
Ice coolers are used to great effect FA of drag racer that are only used for seconds at a time.
A plenum if he goes that route again, could be cooled or at least isolated with a ceramic paint or coating. Or a refrigerant.


I've had a good look at them. Lots of good points including magnetically coupled so no seal to leak.
As is this bosch one
http://www.metricmind.com/products/bosch-pa-66-gf-30/
http://www.bosch-ibusiness.com/boaawapuocs/category/PAD/314/product/643?locale=en_GB

[Haufen]

As is this bosch one
http://www.metricmind.com/products/bosch-pa-66-gf-30/
http://www.bosch-ibusiness.com/boaawapuocs/category/PAD/314/product/643?locale=en_GB

That's my favourite when it comes to coolant pumps. Weight vs. size vs. current vs. coolant flow vs. price (new from 60 USD) all very good.
It is, however, slightly more sensitive to pressure drop in the coolant circuit than others. (use 2 in this case, still cheaper and lighter as other pumps).

[Magnus676]

Good evening to everyone here.
Ι read this topic for some time now,and I'm impressed-at least-with the tuner names around here :eek:
My question is about the 2 stroke drag bike I've been building lately.
I've been thinking this for the last couple of weeks and I still can't decide.What's best power curve for a drag bike?
As much power as you can get in a small rpm range and power droping out quickly,or less power with a wide usable rpm range and a lot of overrev?
And something more.Probably I'll use meth instead of racing gasoline.What should I do to my engine in order to support meth apart from increased fuel flow to..ehhm..everywhere :cool: ?Common "racing" spark plug?More piston to cylinder clearnce because of the higher compression ratio or less because of the cooler engine?
Have a good rest of the day fellas..

[Frits Overmars]

What's best power curve for a drag bike? As much power as you can get in a small rpm range and power droping out quickly, or less power with a wide usable rpm range and a lot of overrev?Hi Magnus, the problem with answering your question is that words like much, small, quickly, wide, usable and 'a lot' have no numerical meaning.
I developed a numerical way to answer questions like these, called Power Range. You can find its description here: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130525788#post1130525788

Which power range is best for a drag bike, largely depends on the amount of power itself, and on the clutch and gearbox.
For example, a Top Fuel car with thousands of HP needs a damn good clutch and only two gears; a 50 cc drag bike doing a quarter mile will need all of its six gears.
You will have to build your own experience regarding what your bike needs. My experience with drag racing is limited, so I can only give you a rough indication:
its necessary range may be smaller than the 1,4 that you would need for road racing.

[peewee]

As is this bosch one
http://www.metricmind.com/products/bosch-pa-66-gf-30/
http://www.bosch-ibusiness.com/boaawapuocs/category/PAD/314/product/643?locale=en_GB

that looks more compact than the other bosch posted previously but I think its l/m output might be less. I wonder if the pump wobbly posted isn't the best so far ? although it doesn't give any size dimensions or weight.

[peewee]

Hi Magnus, the problem with answering your question is that words like much, small, quickly, wide, usable and 'a lot' have no numerical meaning.
I developed a numerical way to answer questions like these, called Power Range. You can find its description here: http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130525788#post1130525788

Which power range is best for a drag bike, largely depends on the amount of power itself, and on the clutch and gearbox.
For example, a Top Fuel car with thousands of HP needs a damn good clutch and only two gears; a 50 cc drag bike doing a quarter mile will need all of its six gears.
.

frits is exactly right about the clutch and gearbox. im only a amateur drag racer but I learned long time ago that if gear spacing is to wide and powerband to narrow , the bike will be a failure.

something else important is a transmission that can change gears up with no power interruption. I made a video in the sand to visually see the results of a standard transmission gear changes that used a slight disengagement of the clutch. you could see at every gear change where there was no power to the tire. you would be amazed at how much time and speed is lost with clutch disengagment. maybe your gearbox can be modified for full power shifts or possibly use a split second electrical disconnect of some kind. the main thing, you want to change gears up with no clutch disengagement.

another technique used on the clutch is a contraption that bolts to the pressure plate and allows a slight slipping of the clutch plates on initial take off so 100% of the power isn't immediately transmitted to the tires, resulting in major traction loss or engine bogging. it has a bunch of weighted fingers that compress the clutch plates tighter as centrigigal force increases. similar concept to what top fuel drag racers use I suppose, although they wouldn't have engine bogging but certainly would have major tire spinning and no traction

on a small methanol engine you might be fine with a free flowing gravity system but theres several mikuni pumps that work good if you need it. http://www.mikuni.com/fs-carburetor.html. I use the 65l/hr pump on my 500cc engine. not sure the correct heat range plug but I always used the #9

[Haufen]

I've been thinking this for the last couple of weeks and I still can't decide.What's best power curve for a drag bike?
As much power as you can get in a small rpm range and power droping out quickly,or less power with a wide usable rpm range and a lot of overrev?

Go for whatever gives the highest average hp through the gears you want to use (you can use the powerrange concept to do this, for example). Typically, a wider usable powerband than needed is a bit more forgiving and improves consistency between the runs as it is not that important any more to catch the shift rpms exactly.

[wobbly]

Everything comes down to the rev drops between gears, this dictates how hard you can lean on the bmep number to create peak power vs band width.
Depending upon the final egt number you generate the pipe will need to be shorter, due to the lower gas temp and the com needs to be thru the roof.
125 cylinder can use 19:1 as an example.
The ignition curve should be as was optimized on petrol and the plug should be an 11 when running very high com or it will create deto around the body due
to overheating.
Dragging is all about creating heat quickly in the pipe so small stingers are the norm as is full throttle staging and air assisted up shifts, easy with an Ignitech or similar.

[SwePatrick]

Broad curve is a must to get it to behave koncistent.
A small peaky engine only produces good runs when you are hitting the powerband perfect.
And that is really difficult with small twostrokes.
The small ones are always faster with variodrive, as it is easier to make koncistent small adjustments to find engines 'sweetspot'.

As the yankee´s always have stated: 'There´s no substitute for cubicinches'

I use a shiftcutter with adjustable timing, this cuts the ignition when hitting the gearlever, this lets me shift gears with no clutch.

The more difficult to get off the line the more timeloss :(

One should never forget that the start is the most critical moment in dragracing, this is where you are spending most time per meters.

Rgds
Patrick

[husaberg]

that looks more compact than the other bosch posted previously but I think its l/m output might be less. I wonder if the pump wobbly posted isn't the best so far ? although it doesn't give any size dimensions or weight.

it is low ouput, Its only 15l/minute
The first one is about 50 liter/m
https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1131025463#post1131025463
its about a 1 KG i think, i have two here.

[adegnes]

FLoatbowl well seemed to do the trick. Responds good to jetting now! The future is bright!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUSPpB9__fU

[husaberg]

FLoatbowl well seemed to do the trick. Responds good to jetting now! The future is bright!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUSPpB9__fU


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qrriKcwvlY
That new fuel might have made a pretty big diference as well

[F5 Dave]

Ambient temp can't be hurting. I've spent about 5hrs today in warm muggy dyno room chasing missing power, how much due to atmospheric. . also trying to fuel map (sorry its my foulstroke 675) in a room that needs ventilation. Getting the curve/map even, but needs so clean runs to verify baselines.

So you calculate like 5hp loss in the variator thingy. That would make it get very hot in short order.

[adegnes]

Ambient temp can't be hurting. I've spent about 5hrs today in warm muggy dyno room chasing missing power, how much due to atmospheric. . also trying to fuel map (sorry its my foulstroke 675) in a room that needs ventilation. Getting the curve/map even, but needs so clean runs to verify baselines.

So you calculate like 5hp loss in the variator thingy. That would make it get very hot in short order.

I'm very uncertain about the transmission loss numbers. The variator/belt/clutch will burn you after a run tho.
I am also trying to draw attention from scooter kids... :laugh:

[jasonu]

I've had a good look at them. Lots of good points including magnetically coupled so no seal to leak.

Finally given up on thermosiphon Mike?

[mr bucketracer]

Ambient temp can't be hurting. I've spent about 5hrs today in warm muggy dyno room chasing missing power, how much due to atmospheric. . also trying to fuel map (sorry its my foulstroke 675) in a room that needs ventilation. Getting the curve/map even, but needs so clean runs to verify baselines.

So you calculate like 5hp loss in the variator thingy. That would make it get very hot in short order.why would you worry about dynoing some road bike?

[husaberg]

why would you worry about dynoing some road bike?

I heard it was making strange farty noises.

[peewee]

hi frits I have a question regarding your power range idea but its late so ill save that for tomorrow. for today I have something else to ask. in a effort to minimize or maybe eliminate piston cracks on the inlet side, ive been reading some research papers on stress concentration of various window shapes. ive included a photo that represents some what of a pyramid from terrible shapes to better shapes. youll see where I think the original window belongs and I circled the window shape which I think would be better. also ill radius all the sharp edges. what do you think ?

[husaberg]

hi frits I have a question regarding your power range idea but its late so ill save that for tomorrow. for today I have something else to ask. in a effort to minimize or maybe eliminate piston cracks on the inlet side, ive been reading some research papers on stress concentration of various window shapes. ive included a photo that represents some what of a pyramid from terrible shapes to better shapes. youll see where I think the original window belongs and I circled the window shape which I think would be better. also ill radius all the sharp edges. what do you think ?

Peewee have a read up on the De Havilland DH 106 Comet.
One of the first, if not the first jet airliners.
They had some issues with the windows too.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-3406445/Why-aren-t-plane-windows-square-Experts-explain-simple-crucial-reason-curved-shape-vital-aircraft-safety.html

[Frits Overmars]

in a effort to minimize or maybe eliminate piston cracks on the inlet side, ive been reading some research papers on stress concentration of various window shapes. ive included a photo that represents some what of a pyramid from terrible shapes to better shapes. youll see where I think the original window belongs and I circled the window shape which I think would be better. also ill radius all the sharp edges. what do you think ?I think there should not be any windows in pistons at all, Peewee. I'd rather bring the inlet port down and shorten the piston. Apart from this, Husas Comet-link is worth reading.
Radiusing all sharp edges is good. Not only for stress concentration avoidance, but also because radiused edges won't scrape as much oil off the bore as sharp edges would.

[adegnes]

Manual powerjet shutoff valve.

328154

Will attach a wire and use a handlebar lever to operate it.
As my bike is only supposed to be above peak power rpm when it's fully geared out and rpm starts climbing I think it'll work fine.

[Magnus676]

Which power range is best for a drag bike, largely depends on the amount of power itself, and on the clutch and gearbox.
For example, a Top Fuel car with thousands of HP needs a damn good clutch and only two gears; a 50 cc drag bike doing a quarter mile will need all of its six gears.
Guys,and Frits my bike is a 5-speed 250cc drag bike, max power @ 11000rpm(Too much?I know but it's drag racing,you need as much power as you can get and as much rpm as possible,or at least I think so :) )
What I can't understand,a bike with,say 70hp and 1.25 power range will have power from aprox 9000-11000.Even with a close-ratio gearbox,you'll need a very tall primary and final gear ratio in order to reach max speed in 400 m and not say,300m.
So I guess little less power but with a ~1.38 power range would be better.
What's your opinion guys?

[Frits Overmars]

Guys,and Frits my bike is a 5-speed 250cc drag bike, max power @ 11000rpm(Too much?I know but it's drag racing,you need as much power as you can get and as much rpm as possible,or at least I think so :) ) What I can't understand,a bike with,say 70hp and 1.25 power range will have power from aprox 9000-11000.Even with a close-ratio gearbox,you'll need a very tall primary and final gear ratio in order to reach max speed in 400 m and not say,300m. So I guess little less power but with a ~1.38 power range would be better. What's your opinion guys?Magnus, I'm a guy too. And no, I'm not going to prove it by posting some eludicating picture here. You'll have to take my word for it.
11000 rpm is rather high for the max.power of a 250 cc single (at least, I'm assuming it's a single). I would not be surprised if you could find more power at lower revs.
I agree that for a drag bike you need as much power as you can get, but why would you want as much rpm as you can get?
As I wrote in my previous post, my experience with dragracing is limited, but I would think that a close-ratio gearbox, roadracing style, is not the optimum. You will problably need a lower first gear and a wider spread from first to top.
A few more words about the power range concept may be in order. The power range of an engine, or rather the power range of a dyno graph is its maximum rpm divided by its minimum rpm. For example, an engine may have a total power range of 4, from 3000 to 12000 rpm, and a power band of 1,3 , from 9000 to 11700 rpm.
The power range that you need, depends on the form of motorsport that you wish to take part in.
Like I said, you will have to build your own database about the best power range for a certain combination of engine, transmission, tire, track conditions etc.

[Michael Moore]

At one time drag bikes had only one gear, they just spun the rear wheel off the line until they were going fast enough to hook up solidly.

A CVT seems like it would be good for a small engine but you may need even more power to offset losses in the CVT (it sounds like they get hot from belt slip). But it would let you keep the engine at the full power RPM. There's been a lot of CVT tuning research done by the snowmobile crowd.

cheers,
Michael

[Frits Overmars]

At one time drag bikes had only one gear, they just spun the rear wheel off the line until they were going fast enough to hook up solidly. Today Top Fuel cars spin their rear wheels to get heat in the tires. Subsequently they try to get off the line on the border of wheel spin, and as the speed and the wheel rpm rise, so does the tire diameter, automatically adjusting the transmission ratio.


A CVT seems like it would be good for a small engine but you may need even more power to offset losses in the CVT (it sounds like they get hot from belt slip). But it would let you keep the engine at the full power RPM. There's been a lot of CVT tuning research done by the snowmobile crowd.Keeping the revs always at max.power rpm is one big advantage of a CVT. But it's not their only advantage. Apart from dragsters that can shift up under full power,
a gearshift usually requires that you take the torque off the shift dogs for a moment in order to be able to axially move them to the next insertion posititon.
But cutting the torque, even for a fraction of a second, means interrupting the combustion. And no combustion, no exhaust gas energy. A four-stroke can live with that, but for a competition two-stroke it's disastrous. The exhaust pipe dynamics collapse and although the combustion sound returns as soon as there is combustion again,
it may take a whole second before the pipe dynamics have fully recovered and all the power is available again.
CVTs are clearly less efficient than gearboxes, but at least they don't require combustion interruptions and power collapses, so they may come out on top after all.

[jonny quest]

Isn't that why you never let off the throttle and just stab the clutch?

[cotswold]

[QUOTE=TZ350;1131025445].
Back to working on the EFI project.

328055

I kept having problems with the original 12Volt water pump and eventually it burnt out. So I found this little beauty lying around the workshop and plumbed it in for a temporary fix. The unkind suggested I put a skate board under it and ride the outfit in the side car class. The up side with the 12V pump being temperamental was that I found the engine boils up nicely without any damage, did it quite a few times.

Have you tried the Mercedes Aux pump, the lads in the uk swear by them
this is possibly a bit heavy http://www.xylemflowcontrol.com/marine-and-rv/circulation-pumps/50840-series-low-pressure-cyclone-centrifugal-pump.htm
range rover one does 4 yankie gallons per minute http://www.ebay.com/itm/BOSCH-AUXILLIARY-OEM-WATER-PUMP-0392022002-SUPERCHARGED-RANGE-ROVER-AND-SPORT-/390921934182?fits=Make%3AFord%7CSubmodel%3ALightni ng&hash=item5b04c35566:g:zi8AAOSwDk5T~gH0&vxp=mtr

[wobbly]

In karting the 250 engines rev to 11,000 all day with no issues,apart from needing regular big end bearings.
Using speedshifters that have ignition cut for say 50 msecs the loss of combustion and pipe effect is minimal, and on the dyno the power drop delta
between gears using this gives setup about a bike length advantage per change ( using the Dynojet time/distance histogram output ).
Most late model MX have only 5 speeds with big gear drops, but many also originally had a 6 speed that still fits straight in.
Full throttle staging with a rev limiter gets heat in the pipe real quick, and also means consistent launch technique.
Drag racers now also use seamless shift gearboxes in Banshees, with a very simple fork/dog mod, Google that.
You want to get the thing reving to its mechanical limit the whole time, as this affects the speed/rev ratio and thus the torque multiplication of short drive ratios.

[WilDun]

I am having a problem getting on to the ESE thread since yesterday - every time I click on to this thread, only the "reply" window comes up complete with quote and that's all - so I can't get the latest posts anymore!
So I have decided to use this reply window (after deleting the quote) so I can find out from someone who can tell me what has gone wrong. -did I press a wrong button somewhere? (maybe I have cured it by doing just that - we'll see).

UPDATE - no I haven't, problem still there every time I reopen ESE!

[tjbw]

I am having a problem getting on to the ESE thread since yesterday - every time I click on to this thread, only the "reply" window comes up complete with quote and that's all - so I can't get the latest posts anymore!
So I have decided to use this reply window (after deleting the quote) so I can find out from someone who can tell me what has gone wrong. -did I press a wrong button somewhere? (maybe I have cured it by doing just that - we'll see).

Don't see any problem here Will, try reboot PC?

[WilDun]

Don't see any problem here Will, try reboot PC?

It was rebooted about half an hour ago but I'll try it again, it'll be my fault somewhere along the line I'm sure, but that doesn't help without my knowing what I've done wrong! :confused:

[WilDun]

I'm very uncertain about the transmission loss numbers. The variator/belt/clutch will burn you after a run tho.
I am also trying to draw attention from scooter kids... :laugh:

Tried logging out, and rebooting but it looks like I'm stuck forever having to answer this post by adegnes (which always comes up first) in order to get on to the thread (which I've just done). :brick:

......... but, hang on ...... I'm now getting to the main window by clicking on the "ESE" on the path (top left) in the meantime - that'll do till it's been sorted - somehow!

[SwePatrick]

If needing to compare to any class in dragracing, you should look at Prostock, not Topfuel dragsters.
Prostock is equipped with a slipclutch that locks up with centrifugalforce and a clutchless 5spd gearbox.
But!
Rules differ a bit when having a bike on the strip.
In a car you need to release the clutch yourself.
In Bikedrag they´ve got a similar clutch, but they dont use clutch at all.
They are setting the launchcontrol just underneeth in rpm´s where the clutch engages.
Then releasing the launchbutton the engine speeds up and engages the clutch and for shifting they often use airsystems automated to hit gear in a tuned rev range, this system also cuts the ignition for a couple of ms to get load off the gears.
This allows them to grab the handles good to follow along safely on their short but fast journey ;)

Rgds.

[peewee]

patrick you may find this interesting https://rideapart.com/articles/hondas-secret-gearbox

[husaberg]

Tried logging out, and rebooting but it looks like I'm stuck forever having to answer this post by adegnes (which always comes up first) in order to get on to the thread (which I've just done). :brick:

......... but, hang on ...... I'm now getting to the main window by clicking on the "ESE" on the path (top left) in the meantime - that'll do till it's been sorted - somehow!


MR T will sort it for you.

[SwePatrick]

patrick you may find this interesting https://rideapart.com/articles/hondas-secret-gearbox

It´s interesting, but i do not have possibilites to develop this to my racer.
In my case the driver has to hit the shifter faster, then i can shorten ignitioncut time ;)
I have small plans to let Ignitech control a pneumatic valve to bang the gears.
But, i feel that the win might be eaten up by extra weight(airtank,hoses and solenoid).
I got my ignitioncut setup somewhere between 3-5ms at this point.
It sounds almost seamless. :D

[husaberg]

Have you tried the Mercedes Aux pump, the lads in the uk swear by them
this is possibly a bit heavy http://www.xylemflowcontrol.com/marine-and-rv/circulation-pumps/50840-series-low-pressure-cyclone-centrifugal-pump.htm


that heavy one is about 1200 NZD
this one although small output is smaller draw and lighter and made for hot water
http://www.lusty-blundell.co.nz/afawcs0130944/CATID=58/SUBID=425/ID=4167/SID=55129885/productdetails.html
http://www.condorpumps.com/core/media/media.nl/id.98317/c.3819277/.f?h=a001f73c7967706d5026

[Frits Overmars]

my bike is a 5-speed 250cc drag bike, max power @ 11000rpm
In karting the 250 engines rev to 11,000 all dayNo argument there Wob; I talk to the guy below every now and then :shifty:. Both the single and the twin in the picture are the current European Superkart champions.
The single produces 72 wheel-hp on regular petrol at a little over 10.000 rpm. This made me say that Magnus might find more power below 11.000 rpm.
328172


You want to get the thing reving to its mechanical limit the whole time, as this affects the speed/rev ratio and thus the torque multiplication of short drive ratios.Now you've lost me. I would shift up where the speed-wheeltorque curves intersect. In the low gears that may indeed be at maximum rpm, but certainly not in all gears, unless you go racing with a three-speed gearbox.

[SwePatrick]

I have used those single 250´s as a tell tale as what´s possible in my project.
The power i reached is uncorrected 62.16hp(64.71 corrected to SAE std)
I still think i can reach a bit higher as i´m only having 61.1mm stroke(211.6cc)
The peakpower is as we speak at 11730rpm(max rpm is set to 12500)
And if i play with the numbers a bit(and forgets about pistonspeed when dreaming)
62.16hp/211.6=0.2937618hp per cc
Taking that number and multiply it with 249cc i get 73.14hp

Viperengines in UK is reaching about the same numbers also if i remember correctly?

Anybody sitting on a blueprint of a pipe to one of those?
Would love to see how my 5 minutepipe is similar to those.

[Magnus676]

I've searched for both seamless gearbox banshees and karting 250cc singles,but I didn't find much.
Could I have some more information(pics,specs etc) ?

[Frits Overmars]

Drag racers now also use seamless shift gearboxes in Banshees, with a very simple fork/dog mod, Google that.
I've searched for both seamless gearbox banshees and karting 250cc singles,but I didn't find much. Could I have some more information(pics,specs etc) ?Not a Banshee box (no Banshees around here) but an example of a dragbike transmission.
In a normal gearbox, if two gears are engaged at the same time, the box will lock up and you'll get hurt. But take a look at the shift dogs in this dragbike box.
The shift dogs are beveled at one end. If a gear threatens to overtake a dog ring, the dog ring is simply pushed aside, out of engagement.
Upshifts can be made under full power; no need to cut the ignition or feather the clutch.
328173

[wobbly]

This site has been hideously slow for over a week now, many times it will time out and I get the " cant contact the site " message.
I have tried several times this morning to post this reply, but after several minutes, the reply option still isnt available.

Anyway to answer your query Frits, unless you have the luxury of a DEA or GasGas 250cc single close ratio gear set ( no one with a normal MX 5 speed does )
the big issue is that the rev drops are so huge that many "over tuned " engines will hardly accelerate at all in the upper gears.
If you shorten the gearing, they then overev in the low gears and in 5th the terminal speed is too low.
The only remedy is to do what DEA and Viper do, that is set max power quite low at 10,000 but allow the engine to quite happily overev past 11,000, so
you then drop back into some decent power after an upshift.
The 5 speed MX boxes are little better than the 3 speed you mention as an example, for drag racing or a Superkart.

[Mental Trousers]

Tried logging out, and rebooting but it looks like I'm stuck forever having to answer this post by adegnes (which always comes up first) in order to get on to the thread (which I've just done). :brick:

......... but, hang on ...... I'm now getting to the main window by clicking on the "ESE" on the path (top left) in the meantime - that'll do till it's been sorted - somehow!


MR T will sort it for you.

Unlikely. There's nothing wrong with the site. I'm picking it's a virus or some malware crap on Wil's machine.

[Mental Trousers]

This site has been hideously slow for over a week now, many times it will time out and I get the " cant contact the site " message.
I have tried several times this morning to post this reply, but after several minutes, the reply option still isnt available.

I'm not aware of any problems.

However, the connection between you and the server is most likely the problem. Do you have problems with other sites? Are they overseas or local? If so, your ISP is the first stop.

[peewee]

i think ian made up a batch of 6spd gear sets. i would look into one if i were still riding honda instead of husqvarna -ktm

[ken seeber]

I'm not aware of any problems.

However, the connection between you and the server is most likely the problem. Do you have problems with other sites? Are they overseas or local? If so, your ISP is the first stop.

I dunno MT. For quite some time when typing a post, the thing times out and I have lost everything. This can give you the shits. So now, I write my posts in Word, then copy and post into KB. If I am putting in pics, I do that first then do the paste. Maybe I am a slow typist, but haven’t seem to have had any problems elsewhere.
Still, it could easily be operator error. :(

[Mental Trousers]

I dunno MT. For quite some time when typing a post, the thing times out and I have lost everything. This can give you the shits. So now, I write my posts in Word, then copy and post into KB. If I am putting in pics, I do that first then do the paste. Maybe I am a slow typist, but haven’t seem to have had any problems elsewhere.
Still, it could easily be operator error. :(

Ah I see. If anyone takes too long to type in a reply they're automatically logged out. That's perfectly normal and I've been caught out by it myself. However, I did manage to retrieve what I typed in and post it. Unfortunately it's not something I can easily explain.

Best to do what you're already doing - type up a long answer in Word and then copy and paste it.

[SwePatrick]

Not a Banshee box (no Banshees around here) but an example of a dragbike transmission.
In a normal gearbox, if two gears are engaged at the same time, the box will lock up and you'll get hurt. But take a look at the shift dogs in this dragbike box.
The shift dogs are beveled at one end. If a gear threatens to overtake a dog ring, the dog ring is simply pushed aside, out of engagement.
Upshifts can be made under full power; no need to cut the ignition or feather the clutch.
328173

Two gears would never even get close to be engaged in that box(they are just to far apart), and as i understand it the bevels don´t push any gears to the side as you describe it.
The bevels are for pushing the activated gear out for easier shifting, a minor unloading of the gear and the dogs automaticly disengage due to the bevel pushing the dogring away, or with applied force(slam the gears) the dogs disengages and the bevels making sure the gear never engages again by mistakes of driver.
That gearbox is impossible to use the engine as a 'brake', the gears just disengages.
Just like a liberty gearbox for dragcars.
You can also if you want, use a smoothcut of ignition and apply a small force on shiftlever, when engine is hitting the smoothcut and torque from engine is getting less the next gear just slips in.

http://www.libertysgears.com/OPEN%20TRANSMISSION%20RESIZED/CLOSE%20UP%20INSIDE%20TRANS.jpg

[peewee]

Patrick I think some standard gear sets can be modified to make upshifts in a similar fashion as your drawing. I believe theres some gears (where the fork is positioned) that have cogs on both ends and this gear needs to be split in half with a machine. so for instance in 3rd gear, you can select 4th gear while 3rd is still engaged, because 3rd gear wont follow 4th because it was split in half. the ramp on the 3rd gear dog push the 3rd gear away. the problem is they cant be downshifted like a normal gearbox so its only good for upshift. I have one of these style of gear sets but I haven't had much time to inspect how it fully works but ill see if I can get a photo.

[SwePatrick]

The gears cannot be pushed away in these transmissions.
They are located with clips.
If a gear would be pushed away it would be a disaster for the longevity of the gears.
Therefor are the gears fixed in postion to ensure maximum use of surface of the gears.
It´s only the dogring that moves when shifting gears.
And in the liberty gearbox they have shortened the travel of the rings to ensure fast shifting.
And also if a dogring breaks you can replace just that one.

They are very clever, these boxes.
All to ensure easy and 'cheap' services between the runs. :2thumbsup

I have modified the dogs to what is called 'undercut', this helps gears being connected in std transmissions.
Often a std OEM gearbox can let the dogs slip apart under high load, undercut prevents it.
I figure you are talking about grind the 'backside' of the dog likewise to the liberty and the banshee gearbox, this might work, but sadly often will push hard on shiftforks and melt them :(

My old Honda MT5(132cc) melted the shiftforks, but under load, therefor i undercut the dogs in kawa trans ;)

[Frits Overmars]

the bevels don´t push any gears to the side as you describe it.Could you please show me where I wrote that, Patrick?

[SwePatrick]

In exact words you never did, but a gear can never threaten to overtake a dogring when a dogring is engaged to an another gear.
If it ever would, the gear had to lost it´s place and started to move against the dogring.
The bevels are for pushing dogring away when torque is lost and setting gearbox in neutral.
The bevels also is letting the dogs connect easier when engaging the gear, as the bevel function as a 'ramp' downwards into connect.

In cars this is funny, if letting drivetrain drive the engine under coastdown, the gearlever slams your hand hard, REALLY hard if there´s a misfiring under full load.

[peewee]

maybe wobbly knows more but I think in a transmission like a TZ (and maybe others ?) you can split the gear with double ended cogs and this allows 2 gears to be selected simultaniuosly and the lower gear is then pushed away because of the ramps. I think this is how it works

[Frits Overmars]

In exact words you never did, but a gear can never threaten to overtake a dogring when dogring is engaged to an another gear.
If it ever would, the gear had to lost it´s place and started to move against the dogring.Let me rephrase that for you:
"a gear can never threaten to overtake a dogring when that same dogring is engaged to an another gear".
But again that is not what I said.
If you wish to criticise me, that's fine. But then please quote me, so it will be clear for everybody just what it is that you disagree with.

[husaberg]

Unlikely. There's nothing wrong with the site. I'm picking it's a virus or some malware crap on Wil's machine.

What you are not doing home visits and outcalls now.:lol:





This site has been hideously slow for over a week now, many times it will time out and I get the " cant contact the site " message.
I have tried several times this morning to post this reply, but after several minutes, the reply option still isnt available.

.
Ditto i are getting the text bubble unable to contact site stuff as well.
OPen new tab and then all is fine until the same thing happens again
3-5 times a night.

Ah I see. If anyone takes too long to type in a reply they're automatically logged out. That's perfectly normal and I've been caught out by it myself. However, I did manage to retrieve what I typed in and post it. Unfortunately it's not something I can easily explain.

Best to do what you're already doing - type up a long answer in Word and then copy and paste it.

What you can do is just right click and copy the text prior to hitting reply, no need to use word. ( i do though, because my spelling sucks and my browser wont play nice with the KB spell check anymore)
If you get caught out when it times out, yes sometimes using the back button works, But not always.

You can always just set up your profile to automatically log in no login password required

[SwePatrick]

Let me rephrase that for you:
"a gear can never threaten to overtake a dogring when that same dogring is engaged to an another gear".
But again that is not what I said.
If you wish to criticise me, that's fine. But then please quote me, so it will be clear for everybody just what it is that you disagree with.

Just,, WOW. :eek5:
All i have to say.

[Muciek]

https://www.facebook.com/pg/Czech.Motorsport.association/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1295847133812389

Picutres of the CZ twin 125 rear disc valve engine from 1983 :)

[wobbly]

I always thought the SeaDoo twin was clever, but they pinched the idea off CZ from 10 years earlier.

[Michael Moore]

I think the Konig and Fath engines predate both of those.

http://www.konny.cz/news/Exhaust%20UP/ENGINE%20002.jpg

http://www.zweitakte.de/modelle/Motoren/Helmut%20Fath/Helmut-Fath-1.jpg

cheers,
Michael

[wobbly]

I knew about both the Konig and Helmuts ( my hero ) engines but both used what I think is the mickey mouse
drive solution - a belt twisted and running around like a mad woman's shit.
The Rotax/Thiel implementation with an internal gear drive for the valve is much more elegant - better, who knows.

[DoldGuy]

The transmission discussed is an override transmission (Google it). It allows up shifts with no clutch or ignition cut/kill...the bad about these, if you reduce the throttle ANY it will bend shift forks and sometimes take out the gears/cases.

Swedepatrick, I have one of these transmissions for the KX250, if interested will post pictures.


I have single cylinder Drag Bikes & personally like/prefer the Air Shifter setup and feel it is much better than any of these transmissions.

Currently working on another motor & will have lots of questions for you guys :rolleyes:

DoldGuy

[TZ350]

Currently working on another motor & will have lots of questions for you guys :rolleyes:


We would love to see pictures and posts about your progress too, its a trade off.

[peewee]

We would love to see pictures and posts about your progress too, its a trade off.

its easier to just lurk nearly annonomously and copy everyone elses ideas :lol:.

[WilDun]

I dunno MT. For quite some time when typing a post, the thing times out and I have lost everything. This can give you the shits. So now, I write my posts in Word, then copy and post into KB. If I am putting in pics, I do that first then do the paste. Maybe I am a slow typist, but haven’t seem to have had any problems elsewhere.
Still, it could easily be operator error. :(

I had the same problem so I typed it all out, edited it and got it right, then copied it, reopened the reply box from the thread and pasted it in that ...... it works!

Update, - yes MT, it possibly is a virus or something on my computer, so I've been scanning and scanning with Malwarebytes - that usually cures problems eventually - and it has! ( but I never had any problems elsewhere though!).

Back to gearboxes.

[Grumph]

Or back to elegant rotary valve drives...

Rotax had some previous experience prior to the Sea-Doo and the RSA. This would have made a nice production racer engine IMO.

For MT's info, this wouldn't load this PM but does now....

Edit - can someone more familiar with krobers tell which direction the engine rotates please.

[Frits Overmars]

I knew about both the Konig and Helmuts ( my hero ) engines but both used what I think is the mickey mouse drive solution - a belt twisted and running around like a mad woman's shit.
The Rotax/Thiel implementation with an internal gear drive for the valve is much more elegant - better, who knows.I've got joyful news for you Wob. Your hero did not make the mistake of twisting that belt. Both Helmut Fath and Egbert Streuer kept their belts in one plane and made the 90° transition with bevel gears. Running around: yes, but that would be just about inevitable with two disks on Streuers Stredor ( pictures below) and no less than four (stacked two by two, contra-rotating) on Faths engine; see the picture above.
328203 328204

The Rotax/Thiel implementation is more elegant, but adjusting the gears on the RSA is a real pain. Today Jan Thiel wouldn't build it like this any more.

[husaberg]

The Rotax/Thiel implementation is more elegant, but adjusting the gears on the RSA is a real pain. Today Jan Thiel wouldn't build it like this any more.
I remember Jan saying he would do a dual disc (one either side)
A couple of quick questions, that i will apologise for in advance, as they might require much longer explanations.
Is it fair to say the RSA breathing improvements with its rear disc did not meet the Jan’s initial expectations for the expected improvement over the single side disc?
Also I recall something about the RSA250 rotation direction being reversed, compared to the RSV250. what were the reasons this was done?

[TZ350]

328205

Well my fuel injection project was starting to go well so I was not surprised when the Beast found another way to annoy me.

It had became troublesome changing gears and eventually locked in first gear. Thinking the gear indent pawl may have jammed the selector drum I took the indent plug out and out fell a tooth that had broken from a gear. I expect there is more rubble inside the box.

But there is an up side, having to take the motor out is just the excuse I need to replace the standard cylinder with a hotted up one. .... :niceone:

[guyhockley]

Exactweld did a dual disc, Puch did a disc/reed combination. Has anyone other than Helmut Fath used same side, contra-rotating discs?

[F5 Dave]

TZ your spaced crankcase obviously need some fettling. If you have spare junk cases you can cut big sections out to observe correct operation which is hard with cluster in just one side. The engagement on the broken gear would be the place to start but several others may need reshimming or maybe just observe if there is free float on shafts to start with.

[Magnus676]

Well,it's a pleasure learning from you guys!
In drag racing we use sleeves intead of nicasil coating,and the piston to cylinder clearence is a little more than road racing or kart engines.
I assume with methanol I'll have to further increase clearence because of the higher comp and advance,and to shorten a little bit the pipe(?)
I think I'll shoot for the safe solution,little less horsepower but for longer with the the long and forgiving power band-power range.

[TZ350]

Thanks F5. Good idea. There was a set of cut up cases I will see if I can find them.

[husaberg]

328205

Well my fuel injection project was starting to go well so I was not surprised when the Beast found another way to annoy me.

It had became troublesome changing gears and eventually locked in first gear. Thinking the gear indent pawl may have jammed the selector drum I took the indent plug out and out fell a tooth that had broken from a gear. I expect there is more rubble inside the box.

But there is an up side, having to take the motor out is just the excuse I need to replace the standard cylinder with a hotted up one. .... :niceone:


Wasn't team ESE going to use a presure feed oilied gearbox?
Did you stick with splash?

[TZ350]

No. Still dry sump oil dribble over ths gears may be the problem or some incredibly rough down changes. Know more when I get it apart.

[TZ350]

Page 1650 .....


And its been several months since one of my musical interludes, https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7YDPNl7PeUU



Suzuki used this idea in 1962; they made the third transfer port of their 50 cc works racer as high as the exhaust port, with the intention of pressurizing the crankcase. But in 1963 this third transfer port was no longer any higher than the others...
I think, and always thought, that this was just a mistake made by the draughtsman.
Or a 'joke' from Suzuki, as this is just impossible....maybe to mislead the opposition.....

All 'normal' 2-stroke engines are rev-limited by the blowdown.
When the blowdown becomes insufficient, at high rpm, exhaust gases enter the crankcase.
They usually cause backfiring in the carburettor, sometimes destroying even the inlet valve or reeds.
At Aprilia we could see this very clearly: the transfer passages and crankcase inside became black.

The Ryger, of course, has far insufficient blowdown.
Without it's extremely high crankcase compression it would probably not rev past 10.000rpm.
I really wonder if mixing burned gases with the fresh charge can in any way be positive....
It really can cause auto-ignition of course!
We'll see, the 50cc development will not remain a secret for a long time I suppose!
The spacer under the cylinder looks higher then normal.
Maybe because of a longer connecting rod, which would be good for reliability.....
The people working on it are among the best and most experienced in Holland.
So if they don't make a success of it there really is no hope....


That would be a perfect example of history repeating itself. Suzuki used this idea in 1962; they made the third transfer port of their 50 cc works racer as high as the exhaust port, with the intention of pressurizing the crankcase. But in 1963 this third transfer port was no longer any higher than the others...


Avgas,or any leaded hi octane race gas runs best with hi com and lean mixtures.
Pump gas or no lead gas makes better power when running richer, with less com and generally more advance.
But in some applications ( like KZ2 ) we need to run lean with pump gas to get pipe temp,its a trade off between outright peak Hp and rev ability.
So pump gas " can " use the same TuBmax numbers as Avgas in EngMod, it depends upon the end use and mechanical setup of the engine.


For years Kawasaki used rubber inserts in the clutch cush drives. The 550 to Z750 all used the same setup - which collapses when you get more HP.
I've made up urethane bushes with good results. If you find the stuff you've ordered is too harsh, just make them give a little more with a hole in the center...


The RSA big-end pin was 22mm
On the RSW 21,3 was tried, with one roller more.
It gave slightly less power.
This may have been caused by less crankshaft stiffness or by more friction.
So I don't think 22mm was the best solution....
And the RSW's 20mm never gave trouble!
A 22mm big-end does not guarantee a stiffer crankshaft.
The outside diameter of the crank wheels is just as, or even more, important.
Sorry, I don't remember the RSA crank web diameter.
But I do remember they seriously disturbed inlet flow.
So we had to use a longer connecting rod of 120mm
With hindsight, I consider the RSA a mistake.....
At the time I was too obsessed with the RSW's bad inlet flow, disturbed as it was by the connecting rod...
When the first RSA crankcase arrived at Derbi I immediately did an inlet flow test, of course.
It flowed less than the RSW, I remember feeling VERY disappointed....



How did you measure inlet flow? Flowbench, head off, 3 different transfer openings... then averagedIf you do it this way you would only be measuring transfer flow....



Why did RSA make more power than RSW if inlet flow was down? There are many more factors in an engine determining power!




Jan could you elaborate a bit on the inlet flow of the RSA.
I know you tested the kart engine with the shields over the wheels, as these have the inlet flow in the opposite direction
to the top of the flywheels - and that made more power when reversed.
But the RSA had the wheels rotating into the case at the top - ie the same direction as the rear inlet flow.
And I would have thought that the rod would have alot less bad effect on the inlet when moving forward and backward, unlike the RSW
where it moved across the flow direction.
Do you think the shape directly after the rotary valve was " wrong " or was something else interfering with the rear inlet flow into the case.

Yes Wobbly, the 'other side' of the cylinder was now like a wall the flow collided with.
Of course many shapes of the duct after the valve should have been tried, but it was not done....
Directing the flow towards the transfer ducts, like in a read valve engine.

My task at Aprilia after I returned from Derbi was cylinder development.
To use a cylinder on the RSA the rear side had to be cut off as much as possible.
As it stood in the way of the inlet flow.
After this cutting such a cylinder gave less power on a RSW and 250
So we did this as least as possible....

And I was not very happy to return to Aprilia, after 1.5 year at Derbi, but had no choice.
So I lost interest, worked very little, and retired the year after.

When I was gone they saw their change to try a 'Honda'-type exhaust duct and port.
They lost 1,5HP, because they had to make the A-ports narrower I think.
What are your thoughts about 'Honda type' vs triple ports?
Have you ever been able to make a honest comparison?
At Derbi I had cylinders with triple ports cast and nikasil plated, they were ready to try when I had to leave....
Still I have some regrets about this.


Det buttons.

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130263736#post1130263736

https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130792235#post1130792235 (https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner?p=1130792235#post1130792235)

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Avgas,or any leaded hi octane race gas runs best with hi com and lean mixtures.
Pump gas or no lead gas makes better power when running richer, with less com and generally more advance.
But in some applications ( like KZ2 ) we need to run lean with pump gas to get pipe temp,its a trade off between outright peak Hp and rev ability.
So pump gas " can " use the same TuBmax numbers as Avgas in EngMod, it depends upon the end use and mechanical setup of the engine.

Numerical Analysis of a 2T engine with various fuel injection options.


https://www.google.be/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://researchbank.rmit.edu.au/eserv/rmit:161450/Jiang.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjR1Of2ypDSAhVBsxQKHY0jAXgQFggaMAA&usg=AFQjCNF6u_x75BOckv5tiBjXhHajpVuNAA&sig2=SejXqSoVJoAk0M2iu5-Mdg


I first tried it on a 50 cc in 1074: more power.
Going from 80 to 85
Then at Aprilia in 1996: more power.
Without varying the crankcase volume.
We went from 112 to 113 and 115, later 118 was tried, still better.
For the RSA we had to lengthen the connecting rod from 115 to 120 to improve inlet flow: more power.
It is mainly due to piston friction I think.
NSU already found this in 1953, piston friction was the main source of friction in their 250 4-stroke engine.
It may be different for a reed valve engine, I have not much experience with these.
But the piston friction loss will, of course, be the same in a reed valve engine.

Of course at BDC there is no difference as you have to adjust the cylinder height!
Maybe it is interesting that with a longer connecting rod I could use higher transfer ports on my 50.
Getting still more power!

The crankcase volume also changes, of course, unless you change the position of the piston pin in the piston, as we did at Aprilia
This can be better or worse....
You can change your crankcase volume in many ways.
But always keep in mind that flow is more important than volume.....
On rotary valve engines I found the bigger the better, within reason of course....
The Aprilia engines had very narrow crank wheels, (16mm) so a very big crankcase volume. About 660cc in TDC
A big crankcase volume makes very long inlet timings necessary.
And big carburetors.

This is probably the reason why reed-valve engines need a smaller crankcase volume.
The reeds 'decide' for themselves when to open...
They need some depression.
And because maximum inlet flow is probably determined by the reed block, big carburetors won't work on a reed-valve engine.
They just slow down the flow in the carburetor, making for a difficult carburetor adjustment.

So I think that a rotary valve engine will always give about 3-4 HP more (125cc) than a reed valve engine.
Because of its unrestricted inlet flow and less pumping losses.



Oko Powerjet nozzle too short? Doesn't seem to flow much at all on my bike...
Powerjets were originally developed for piston port induction, with the nozzle feeding in from the top of the carb bore, the idea being that at part throttle there would be no airflow across the nozzle, so no fuel flow through it. The powerjet would only come into action at full, or allmost full throttle.
Today, powerjets are used in a different way and the top-feed position has no advantages any more, while it still has the disadvantage of a slow reaction due to the long path from float bowl to nozzle exit, plus the fact that the fuel first has to be sucked all the way up to where the hose connects to the nozzle. As long as there is not enough suction to pull the fuel 'over the hill', nothing will happen at all.
If you position the nozzle lower, like on the picture below, response will be a lot better. Make sure that you view the picture in its full format; klick on it 3 times.
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With your Fabrication skills I'm sure you could duplicate most of the components.

http://www.pingelonline.com/air-shifters/803-premium-air-kit-with-1-handlebar-control.asp

[husaberg]

No. Still dry sum oil dribble over ths gears may be the problem or some incredibly rough down changes. Know more when I get it apart.

what was the oil feed rate in ml\s minute, i remember you were going to use an autolube pump i would expect they would be very low flow rate.

[Grumph]

No. Still dry sum oil dribble over ths gears may be the problem or some incredibly rough down changes. Know more when I get it apart.

If there's a gear running on a bush on the shaft, you will need an internal feed too...Found this with GSXR boxes, the bush for 3rd in the middle of the 6 speed 750 box was the weak spot. Up the feed to it and you could put the 750 box in an 1100.
But of course it's an old box too....

[TZ350]

what was the oil feed rate in ml\s minute, i remember you were going to use an autolube pump i would expect they would be very low flow rate.

Finding a suitable gearbox oil pump has been a bit of a mission. Tried quite a selection of pumps, they all failed at some point or other. There have been vacuum diaphragm pumps, electric centrifugal pumps and plunger pumps. 12V garden feature water pumps, pressure diaphragms and fuel pumps. Mostly 1-3 l/min, 5 l/min seems ideal, inexpensive with low current draw is a must.

My favorite was a Toyota windscreen washer pump, took 3 amps and delivered a good jet of oil but over heated after a few minutes and stopped but would always restart after a rest, protected by an internal thermal overload switch I guess.

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Not sure yet if the gearbox implosion is a lack of oil problem or the really really rough downshifts on the dyno when the motor cut out, probably both. Performing a gear box autopsy soon.
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I have a couple of these coming. they look like they are meant for continuous operation. Their intended use is to supply water to concrete cutters. Current demand, flow and pressure all look good. Looks like a slightly bigger version of the Toyota windscreen wiper pump.



Adapter Output voltage: 12V 3A
Water pump voltage: 12V
Power: 30W
Adapter plug: US plug
Lift: Approx. 6 meter / 19.7ft
Flowrate: 6L/M
Water inlet: Approx. 16mm
Water outlet: Approx. 6mm
Water pump size(HxD.): Approx. 88mm x 32mm / 3.46inch x 1.3inch
Working temperature: 0-80℃

[Grumph]

Have a look at the little Honda 4T single oil pump - CB100 upwards. Narrow gerotor pump which could be driven by an oldham coupling or similar off the end of a gearbox shaft. Heaps of them around too. Minimal power loss I'd think.

[husaberg]

Have a look at the little Honda 4T single oil pump - CB100 upwards. Narrow gerotor pump which could be driven by an oldham coupling or similar off the end of a gearbox shaft. Heaps of them around too. Minimal power loss I'd think.

The CRF50 and its many derivatives has a natty little gear pump with a tab drive that could easily be driven on the unused kickstart gear and idler setup.
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On another topic the plenum
Kawasaki Disc valve engines had these
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[Grumph]

That CRF50 pump looks like the gerotor setup from the CB singles in a different body. Probably is too, if something works, Honda seldom change it....

[husaberg]

That CRF50 pump looks like the gerotor setup from the CB singles in a different body. Probably is too, if something works, Honda seldom change it....

Its def a smaller housing, smaller gears likely, narrower too i think. i could compare them i have one of each somewhere, i have a high output takakawa crf50 one, Rob is welcome to it if he wants it.
The Pitbike ones i think have plastic drive gears likely recycled wok internal gears as well.
hers is an inside pic crf70
http://www.cyclepedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/honda_crf70_xr70_specifications_torque_specs_clear ance_oil_pump.jpg

[Frits Overmars]

I remember Jan saying he would do a dual disc (one either side)
Is it fair to say the RSA breathing improvements with its rear disc did not meet the Jan’s initial expectations for the expected improvement over the single side disc?
Also I recall something about the RSA250 rotation direction being reversed, compared to the RSV250. what were the reasons this was done?Yes, Jan would do a dual disc now.
Is it fair to say...? Well, yes and no. The RSA was an improvement over the side-disc RSW alright, but not by as much as Jan had hoped for.
But as the RSA was winning GPs, Aprilia-management decided not to spend any time and money on development; there may have been a few more horses in there, waiting to be unleashed.
You're right about the RSA250's rotation direction being reversed, compared to the RSW250. The various shafts in the engine were moved about in order to make it more compact. In the RSW the top crankshaft was driving the clutch; in the RSA it was the bottom crankshaft.
Left to right: RSW250, RSA250, RSA250.
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[Frits Overmars]

Exactweld did a dual disc, Puch did a disc/reed combination. Has anyone other than Helmut Fath used same side, contra-rotating discs?I'm not aware of anyone else doing contra-rotating discs. But I do know that the Puch works bike had no disc/reed but a disc/pistonport combination;
I took the engine apart the same year that Harry Everts rode it to a 250 cc MX world title.
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[husaberg]

Yes, Jan would do a dual disc now.
Is it fair to say...? Well, yes and no. The RSA was an improvement over the side-disc RSW alright, but not by as much as Jan had hoped for.
But as the RSA was winning GPs, Aprilia-management decided not to spend any time and money on development; there may have been a few more horses in there, waiting to be unleashed.
You're right about the RSA250's rotation direction being reversed, compared to the RSW250. The various shafts in the engine were moved about about in order to make it more compact. In the RSW the top crankshaft was driving the clutch; in the RSA it was the bottom crankshaft.
Left to right: RSW250, RSA250, RSA250.
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Thanks Frits
Did the riders report any difference in steering characteristics or were possible effects masked by differing weight distribution anyway.
Or was the compactness more to do with engine width?

[bucketracer]

http://www.cyclepedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/honda_crf70_xr70_specifications_torque_specs_clear ance_oil_pump.jpg

Those gear pumps look the business, unfortunately I think TZ had to cut the starter gear off the back of the clutch so he could fit that big KE175 rotary valve. The starter gear also drove the Posilube pump otherwise he could put one of these where the original Posilube oil pump was. Maybe he could drive one directly off the outer end of the gearbox input shaft.

[husaberg]

Those gear pumps look the business, unfortunately I think TZ had to cut the starter gear off the back of the clutch so he could fit that big KE175 rotary valve. The starter gear also drove the Posilube pump otherwise he could put one of these where the original Posilube oil pump was. Maybe he could drive one directly off the outer end of the gearbox input shaft.

I'll have a dig in the shed and send Rob one, I think i have a CB100 on as well.

[Frits Overmars]

Thanks Frits. Did the riders report any difference in steering characteristics or were possible effects masked by differing weight distribution anyway. Or was the compactness more to do with engine width?Feedback from the teams to the racing department was severely discouraged by the technical director; must have been a case of 'divide and conquer'.
And Jan Thiel did not concern himself with the cycle parts at Aprilia anyway, so I cannot quote on any rider reports.
As far as I know the main reason for the layout change was to alter the position of the gearbox output shaft.