ESE's works engine tuner [Archive] - Page 83

speedpro

12th November 2015, 16:44

Who gives a shit what it cost. If you want to spend the money and it makes you happy - all good. I've spent heaps over time and a have a couple of trophies. I've been accused of chequebook racing more than once in more than one class. Normally followed by something along the lines of how it will ruin the sport. Funnily enough every cheque that was written was accompanied by weeks/months/years of work by often a group of people. Nobody comments on that. Sometimes a more frugal effort can be rewarding. For me that would be the MB after the RG/TS combo, until I made the shortstroke crankshaft at least, then I was back to chequebook racing.

speedpro

12th November 2015, 16:48

And about the rider, Dave Manuell makes any bike look fast.Gaz is fast as well.

wobbly

12th November 2015, 16:48

Well I built the bike for Trevor Discombe to replace his TZ350 I did , that won the Challenge for the last 2 years.
But at 70 his wife thinks he loves the bike more than her, so has left - permanently.
So i own it, lets just say a 14 dead in Pre 82 Junior isnt possible without around 5K of Ohlins on board.
And between every race while Dennis was sleeping I changed the gearing, did the data downloads, and changed the jets.
This is what it ended up with - 12,000 = 248Km/Hr, is the bike fast, sure is, is Dennis fast,sure is.

seymour14

12th November 2015, 17:22

Im just about to leave for the World Karting champs in Vegas to try win it for the 3rd time, and will start posting again when I get back.
And no I wont be in the sidecar with one of the best kart drivers in the World- I will be full time looking at data and tuning his engine and chassis.
As he couldn't win it without that help,and I for sure couldnt drive 1/2 as well.

The only two times I have gone off on this forum is when reading absolute rubbish passed off as an attempt at fact.
1 - " Vertical bar shaking isnt bad " - but why does every engineer set the balance factor to try and reduce it to a minimum.
2 - " There is no time to blip the downchange on a bucket " - funny that all the worlds fastest shifter karters find time in less than 1/2 the braking distance -
and do it for the same reason all good bike racers do, reducing the ill effects of the downchange on the chassis.

And as for the childish personal abuse and piss taking, well many others have said to me - ignore it, but my response is to say "fuck off " or contribute something
useful to the forum, as I have tried to do.

And to cap off what was received by a couple as being a big headed wank on my part, well here is a pic of Dennis doing what he does best.
The reason for the wank - I built the chassis, designed the engine &, the pipes in EngMod - then made them, so yes I am the proud builder
of the fastest Pre 82 in the country - not just talking eh.

I think you will find that the only grumpy arrogant cunt comments were coming from you, directed at Grumph.

We just responded because we are sick to death of your blowhard comments.

Have fun with your karts, I grew out of them 30 years ago...:laugh:

F5 Dave

12th November 2015, 17:38

Racing is good.

Enjoy it best you can and screw what anyone else thinks.

Glad you're still here Wob for those of us who appreciate it and are still learning. Good luck in the big V.

sidecar bob

12th November 2015, 18:11

Well I built the bike for Trevor Discombe to replace his TZ350 I did , that won the Challenge for the last 2 years.
But at 70 his wife thinks he loves the bike more than her, so has left - permanently.
So i own it, lets just say a 14 dead in Pre 82 Junior isnt possible without around 5K of Ohlins on board.
And between every race while Dennis was sleeping I changed the gearing, did the data downloads, and changed the jets.
This is what it ended up with - 12,000 = 248Km/Hr, is the bike fast, sure is, is Dennis fast,sure is.

So it's not really a pre '82 at all then? Seeing as the chassis was built several years ago at best. Where does that leave you? Did they have data downloads in1982? I was doing a lot of drugs then, so can't be sure, but I honestly don't recall it.
I wasn't curious how much the suspension cost, that's a given, more interested in what it costs to make a 'stroker perform like that. Anything like what Bill Buckley was charged?
Between races I chilled with my homies, as my bike was sorted straight out of the van.
I suppose I don't really give a fuck who people think built my bike, because I'm not trying to impress people in order to create a business of it, although clearly I've built a faster pre '82 senior than all but possibly one competitor, so maybe I should.

MotleyCrue

12th November 2015, 18:55

Guys, do you think the rest of us ("us" being the majority that far outnumbers you) give a rat's ass about any of this ? We don't. Save it for a PM and stop cluttering up the thread.

TZ350

12th November 2015, 19:47

lodgernz

12th November 2015, 19:48

Guys, do you think the rest of us ("us" being the majority that far outnumbers you) give a rat's ass about any of this ? We don't. Save it for a PM and stop cluttering up the thread.

I agree. FFS grow up and stick to the subject matter. Personal shit has no place here.

F5 Dave

12th November 2015, 20:13

+1. If yer here just to act like a wanker procreate off elsewhere.

seymour14

12th November 2015, 20:45

TZ350

12th November 2015, 21:30

Cheers TZ,The boys are looking forward to the 2 hour, something to get their teeth into!

Looking forward to catching up.

41juergen

13th November 2015, 00:52

Guys, do you think the rest of us ("us" being the majority that far outnumbers you) give a rat's ass about any of this ? We don't. Save it for a PM and stop cluttering up the thread.

Fully agree, it's TZ's thread and we all love the discussions and ideas shown here. So if you have personal issues than pls. keep them in PM's and not in a technical thread. It's like kindergarden and the fight about which one has the longest...
PS: also fully agree with peewee and the others, thank's to Wob, Frits and the others helping me to do the next setp in better understanding the hobby we love.

Flettner

13th November 2015, 07:05

So it's not really a pre '82 at all then? Seeing as the chassis was built several years ago at best. Where does that leave you? Did they have data downloads in1982? I was doing a lot of drugs then, so can't be sure, but I honestly don't recall it.
I wasn't curious how much the suspension cost, that's a given, more interested in what it costs to make a 'stroker perform like that. Anything like what Bill Buckley was charged?
Between races I chilled with my homies, as my bike was sorted straight out of the van.
I suppose I don't really give a fuck who people think built my bike, because I'm not trying to impress people in order to create a business of it, although clearly I've built a faster pre '82 senior than all but possibly one competitor, so maybe I should.

Do you have anything twostroke to contribute?

sidecar bob

13th November 2015, 07:45

Do you have anything twostroke to contribute?

No not at all. I just wanted to call into question why a mildly competitive F2 bike was being touted as a highly competitive pre '82 bike.:bleh:

adegnes

13th November 2015, 08:20

No not at all. I just wanted to call into question why a mildly competitive F2 bike was being touted as a highly competitive pre '82 bike.:bleh:

Why?

................

wobbly

13th November 2015, 08:36

So once again the actual facts are completely ignored and personal abuse takes centre stage.
The whole bike is completely Pre 82 Post Classic Junior legal.
The chassis is a Frepin, designed and first built by Peter Pinion ( in the pic ) and Fred Mclean in 1978.
I have two of the originals here, I jigged off the 350 version, and spent many hours running the design thru FEA and improved
the torsional rigidity to be as good as the best chassis of the day being a Bimota YB3, but its 10Kg lighter.
Unlike the rest of the world we must run period forks - so the legs are off one of only two period bikes with 41mm tubes - an 82 Suzuki GS1000 GK.
They cost $50 off ebay, then fitted with Maxton hi tensile thin wall tubes off ProTwin SV650.
Internals are free, so I fitted 2006 GSXR600 cartridges and KSS did the conversion to NIX20 with all Ohlins stacks and Com on the left and Reb on the right.
We are allowed up to 430cc in two stroke junior, so its a TZ350 - 3G3 six port with a 58mm Banshee crank and Blaster 60mm pistons = 400cc.
I welded CR125 reeds onto the back and fitted an inlet port divider with 2 extra boost ports - externally the same as a Kenny Roberts OW31.
Lectrons are legal flat slides for the period, so it has 40mmHVs.
When I get back from Vegas I will post pics of all the engine mods that will be of interest to the 2T people here.
But just so there is no chance of confusion, here is the crank power sim output - so take off around 12% and you get the final dyno rear wheel power of 82.81
from the video - exactly as it should be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8ZJCPXAIyA

PS - if I wanted the thing to go F2 the swingarm would be 100mm longer and have slicks, add a speedshift and then Dennis would do 10s IMHO.

G10

13th November 2015, 09:36

Wobbly, it appears your credentials are impeccable!

Thanks to everyone that post here, I check 3 or 4 times a day to see what's new. Please don't stop posting!

Flettner

13th November 2015, 10:10

No not at all. I just wanted to call into question why a mildly competitive F2 bike was being touted as a highly competitive pre '82 bike.:bleh:

Then you might be better off on another forum where perhaps you skill set is more appreciated, this is a twostroke development forum, thank you.

nodrog

13th November 2015, 10:29

Then you might be better off on another forum where perhaps you skill set is more appreciated, this is a twostroke development forum, thank you.

No, this forum is kiwibiker.

In which there is a thread about 2 strokes.

WilDun

13th November 2015, 10:33

How about a comedy thread? plenty of talent here!
It all reminds me of the girls at school who were either 'bitching' or 'not speaking'.
:laugh:

ken seeber

13th November 2015, 10:45

Turns out that the vast majority know what we want :yes: and what we don't like :bash:.
Mission accomplished?

teriks

13th November 2015, 10:53

Turns out that the vast majority know what we want :yes: and what we don't like :bash:.
Mission accomplished?
Lets hope so :)

seymour14

13th November 2015, 11:10

Lets hope so :)

I personally like to read about and see TZ's bikes, what this thread was all about until it got hijacked way back when.

How many people here race Buckets?

Ironically, and I do mean ironically, I believe Sidecar Bob has...:eek5:

No disrespect TZ, but you must wonder some days where the "flash mob" came from...

Anyway, each to their own, rant over.:chase:

jasonu

13th November 2015, 11:17

I personally like to read about and see TZ's bikes, what this thread was all about until it got hijacked way back when.

How many people here race Buckets?

Ironically, and I do mean ironically, I believe Sidecar Bob has...:eek5:

No disrespect TZ, but you must wonder some days where the "flash mob" came from...

Anyway, each to their own, rant over.:chase:

Did someone say flash mob???:yes::yes::yes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqnORZOxL98

FastFred

13th November 2015, 11:23

When I get back from Vegas I will post pics of all the engine mods that will be of interest to the 2T people here.

Looking forward to seeing them..... :niceone:

WilDun

13th November 2015, 11:38

I personally like to read about and see TZ's bikes,

How many people here race Buckets?

Anyway, each to their own, rant over.:chase:

I don't race, but only because I can't even throw a leg over the seat and if I could and fell off that would be curtains for me! ( I fell over in Bunnings carpark one day, ended up in hospital and nearly karked it) but ....... Still doesn't disqualify me from being interested though!!
Flettner, I can't contribute much of course but I will do what I can, hopefully enough to to pad things out occasionally.

Sketchy_Racer

13th November 2015, 11:48

So once again the actual facts are completely ignored and personal abuse takes centre stage.
The whole bike is completely Pre 82 Post Classic Junior legal.
The chassis is a Frepin, designed and first built by Peter Pinion ( in the pic ) and Fred Mclean in 1978.
I have two of the originals here, I jigged off the 350 version, and spent many hours running the design thru FEA and improved
the torsional rigidity to be as good as the best chassis of the day being a Bimota YB3, but its 10Kg lighter.
Unlike the rest of the world we must run period forks - so the legs are off one of only two period bikes with 41mm tubes - an 82 Suzuki GS1000 GK.
They cost $50 off ebay, then fitted with Maxton hi tensile thin wall tubes off ProTwin SV650.
Internals are free, so I fitted 2006 GSXR600 cartridges and KSS did the conversion to NIX20 with all Ohlins stacks and Com on the left and Reb on the right.
We are allowed up to 430cc in two stroke junior, so its a TZ350 - 3G3 six port with a 58mm Banshee crank and Blaster 60mm pistons = 400cc.
I welded CR125 reeds onto the back and fitted an inlet port divider with 2 extra boost ports - externally the same as a Kenny Roberts OW31.
Lectrons are legal flat slides for the period, so it has 40mmHVs.
When I get back from Vegas I will post pics of all the engine mods that will be of interest to the 2T people here.
But just so there is no chance of confusion, here is the crank power sim output - so take off around 12% and you get the final dyno rear wheel power of 82.81
from the video - exactly as it should be.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8ZJCPXAIyA

PS - if I wanted the thing to go F2 the swingarm would be 100mm longer and have slicks, add a speedshift and then Dennis would do 10s IMHO.

That bike is pure beauty. A real race bike that I'd imagine takes quite the skill to ride to its potential.

speedpro

13th November 2015, 15:40

That bike is a thing of beauty.

Whip the engine out and throw a watercooled MB100 in it. Tell me I'm not the only one thinking how it would go in bucket racing.

jasonu

13th November 2015, 16:57

That bike is a thing of beauty.

Whip the engine out and throw a watercooled MB100 in it. Tell me I'm not the only one thinking how it would go in bucket racing.

Well it is short enough (wheelbase wise).

F5 Dave

13th November 2015, 19:31

That bike is pure beauty. A real race bike that I'd imagine takes quite the skill to ride to its potential.
Ahh go on, you'd be just itching to try beat an old sparing partner on the same tackle. Go-on, there must be a rich American benefactor who can sponsor Sketch onto an identical bike:banana:

Sketchy_Racer

13th November 2015, 21:35

Ahh go on, you'd be just itching to try beat an old sparing partner on the same tackle. Go-on, there must be a rich American benefactor who can sponsor Sketch onto an identical bike:banana:

Well I would be lying if I said I didn't feel like there was a bit of unfinished business but mostly I'm just jealous of Dennis getting to ride that awesome bike! Back when race bikes were race bikes and men were men. No silly "rider aids"!

Lightbulb

13th November 2015, 22:14

We have been doing some more tests again. This time we were looking at rpm changes from one cycle to the next. Also tested two different pipes compared to the last lot of tests that were done. In addition, this time the frequency of the monitoring was increased from 1 mhz to 16mhz for the hall effect sensor in the engine back plate as it looks at the crank pin going past. We added a thermocouple onto the header pipe, but the 1st one came loose so changed the connection type on the second pipe. Also did some more analysis when the engine was stopping at the end of the run. The most staggering find was the rate of deceleration when the fuel was shut off and was slowing down. At 35 K the rate of slow down due to the prop load is a staggering 621 rev change to the next, so this occurred at only 0.0017 seconds, that is a rate of 355622 revs per second. So the variations from rev to rev at 200 to 400 rpm change is definitely very real and well inside the possibilities of the rate of deceleration.
The other part that was and still is very confusing is the 2 pipes. They are cnc made from bar stock with very similar volumes, the std performance pipe
has stinger of 4.5mm the slow pipe has stinger of 4.6mm , the slow pipe is 1.6 mm longer, but is 1600 to 1700 rpm slow. Only could do 38100 rpm, compared to 39700 of the std pipe. The header temp on the slow pipe is around 230 to 235 C, unsure of the header temp of the 1st run.
The graphs show the rpm on the bottom and pipe temp in the upper. top graph is temp/time, the lower graph is rpm/time
The crosses on the lower graph represents the trigger points with the hall effect sensor at tdc. We have not added the other hall effect sensors to monitor the quadrants just yet.
Neil

TZ350

13th November 2015, 22:58

That is very interesting, very impressed by how you are finding ways of making meaningful measurements with an engine that revs to 38K + rpm.

adegnes

13th November 2015, 23:09

That is very interesting, very impressed by how you are finding ways of making meaningful measurements with an engine that revs to 38K + rpm.

+1

............

Frits Overmars

14th November 2015, 02:48

The other part that was and still is very confusing is the 2 pipes. They are cnc made from bar stock with very similar volumes, the std performance pipe has stinger of 4.5mm the slow pipe has stinger of 4.6mm , the slow pipe is 1.6 mm longer, but is 1600 to 1700 rpm slow. Only could do 38100 rpm, compared to 39700 of the std pipe. The header temp on the slow pipe is around 230 to 235 C, unsure of the header temp of the 1st run.Neil, if I'm not mistaken you're playing with the Profi F2A engine that happened to cross my desk when Profi started producing our MB40 F3D engine.
I dug up some old files: 190° exhaust timing, 140° transfer timing and 0,14 cc combustion volume, does that sound about right?
I found a huge mismatch between blowdown angle.area (good for 26500 rpm) and transfer angle.area (good for 44000 rpm) but as Profi was happy with its performance, he decided not to change it, so all I did was calculate some pipes. If I remember correctly pipe #1 would be delivered with the engine while pipe #2 was experimental.
All pipe lengths are from the piston edge; all diameters are internal. Notice the narrow header and the 4,2 mm stinger diameter on #2?
317243317244

Lightbulb

14th November 2015, 07:01

Thanks Frits, What design do you suggest I make ?
What wall section would you recommend ?
Some people used to use pipes with the smaller 4.2mm stinger, but they found that at the end of the flight it would be burning down,
ie going slower. Quite often resulting in a no flight as it would stop on lap 7 or 8 of 9. Some how, they are getting it hotter or something
and making it run faster in the model and in the air under load than the engine ever could on a test bench situation and some are getting
3% more in the top end, so are running to 40700 rpm when on the bench only does about 39500 or so.
Neil

Flettner

14th November 2015, 09:12

Thanks Frits, What design do you suggest I make ?
What wall section would you recommend ?
Some people used to use pipes with the smaller 4.2mm stinger, but they found that at the end of the flight it would be burning down,
ie going slower. Quite often resulting in a no flight as it would stop on lap 7 or 8 of 9. Some how, they are getting it hotter or something
and making it run faster in the model and in the air under load than the engine ever could on a test bench situation and some are getting
3% more in the top end, so are running to 40700 rpm when on the bench only does about 39500 or so.
Neil

Same as with a gyro engine, tie the autogyro to a fence and you might see 6200 then in flight it will pull to say 6500 or so. The difference is having to pull the air through the blade (static) veres air being introduced to the prop in flight, I guess angle of attach of the blade. I've just woken up so I might have the wrong end of what you are talking about.

Frits Overmars

14th November 2015, 10:25

Thanks Frits, What design do you suggest I make ? What wall section would you recommend ?
Some people used to use pipes with the smaller 4.2mm stinger, but they found that at the end of the flight it would be burning down,
ie going slower. Quite often resulting in a no flight as it would stop on lap 7 or 8 of 9. Some how, they are getting it hotter or something
and making it run faster in the model and in the air under load than the engine ever could on a test bench situation and some are getting
3% more in the top end, so are running to 40700 rpm when on the bench only does about 39500 or so.As these straight pipes are fairly easy to build, I would try both designs, using 0,3 to 0,4 mm mild steel sheet. And you might want to try lower compression ratios than the Profi F2A's standard 19:1.

Same as with a gyro engine, tie the autogyro to a fence and you might see 6200 then in flight it will pull to say 6500 or so. The difference is having to pull the air through the blade (static) veres air being introduced to the prop in flight, I guess angle of attach of the blade. I've just woken up so I might have the wrong end of what you are talking about.Must have been a fruitful nap Neil; I was going to give the same answer. And you can put the effect to good use: impede the airflow to the prop, so it gets to run in its self-created vacuum, and the revs will go up.
When I first demonstrated the technique, it must have looked like magic to the bystanders. There was an engine running on the test bench (nothing to do with a dyno, just a heavy lump of cast iron) and it couldn't manage to pass the torque dip and get on the pipe. I just put a pan lid right in front of the prop, almost against the spinner, and the revs shot up. It's like putting your hand on a vacuum cleaner's hose and hearing the revs rise.

TZ350

14th November 2015, 11:43

Page 1370 ....

http://www.con-rod.com.tw/motorcycle-connecting-rod.htm
http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mingyang-group.2u.com.tw%2Fpdf%2FCAPT-conrod.pdf&ei=iBQJVdibIdXv8gWHmIHoDQ&usg=AFQjCNFf-gNnmOpzO-D1MVppLeMVAqjHUA

Found this cattledog today it a euro one so useful for weird euro stuff
http://http://www.pbr.it/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8993%3Aaprilia-50-rs&catid=39%3Acorone-e-pignoni&Itemid=99&lang=en

It is actually made for a RG500 but........
http://www.maranello-engineering.com/eshop/connecting-rod-20x113mm-p-244.html
Nice site though. Nice Rg500 cylinders as well.

http://www.mxcomposites.com/con_rod.php
http://www.connectingrod.com.tw/ktm.htm
http://www.pro-x.com/downloads/Technical.pdf
http://www.kevinbreedonracing.co.uk/products_conrods.asp
http://www.connectingrod.com.tw/honda.htm
http://www.samarin.nl/webshop/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=32
http://www.tkrj.co.jp/
http://findebookee.com/c/connecting-rod the one is capt
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/399336/Pictures/Posted/HotRod.pdf
http://www.kingrod.com.tw/products.php?func=p_list&pc_parent=22
http://www.crankshaftparts.com/index.php?route=product/category&path=67_93&limit=100
http://shop.atlanticmotoplex.ca/productdetail.htm?productId=10295201&browse=256115&shopBy=13698&catalogId=2016
http://jjmachineryonline.com/snowmobile/crankshaft-rebuild-kits-and-parts/connecting-rods
http://www.scooter-center.com/scoweb...y2=CAT&lang=en
http://www.bansheedepot.com/products.asp?cat=17
http://http://www.samarin.net/?productos
http://www.pvlsverige.se/vrm/index/index22.html

If you are looking for 2T tuning technical information I have found this thread is best read backwards, ie start at the last page and read back towards the beginning.

Transfer Port theory

There are also over 7000 images on this thread, use "Thread Tools" to view them and then click through to the original post about them.

Use Google so to search this site use an ordinary search phrase and after it add

site:www.kiwibiker.co.nz

for example

Frits priceless site:www.kiwibiker.co.nz
or
Frits pisa site:www.kiwibiker.co.nz

the same will work for other sites with the appropriate site address

Mick

A lot of the decade pages have collections of quotes and links to other interesting things.

Page 1250 Links List
Page 1240 2T development Software, Port Theory, Interesting Sites
Page 1230 Compression Ratio, Ex duct shape and length, Fancy spark plugs.
Page 1220 Reed Valve Petals, Oxygen Sensors, Exhaust duct step at the pipe flange.
Page 1210 Ignition Trigger Woes, EngMod 2T and Blow-Down, Fuelling Curve.
Page 1200 Frits on power spread and the ratio of the maximum and minimum points in the power band.
Page 1190 No data, but a lot of talk about what the Ryger engine might look like.
Page 1180 Frits on 2T fuel consumption. M50 cylinder portmap and EngMod2T analysis.
Page 1170 Engine/Gearbox oils and bearings. Transfer duct shape and optimal Ex port timing.
Page 1160 Frits - Engines need large crankcase volumes, Power vis Handling.
Page 1150 Serious talk about crankcase volume.
Page 1140 Measuring the transfer duct length, Ignitec, Expansion chamber design, Trombone pipe.
Page 1130 Team GPR Edgecumbe Videos …. Cooling 2T’s …. 3xEx vis T port,
Page 1120 Crank Balancing, Ceramic Coating, Plugs, Piston Edge chamfers, RS125 pipe dimensions.
Page 1110 TeeZees progress on the EFI thing with the Beast.
Page 1100 No Data but some talk about pickups and EngMod 2T transducer position in the pipe.
Page 1090 Links about the Detonation Sensor and Temperature Data Logger.
Page 1080 No Data, the plenum is protested, Frits on Blowdown and Transfer window height.
Page 1070 Exhaust Duct shape, Kawasaki and BRC EFI dyno videos.
Page 1060 No Data but talk about Port shape and Flow in a duct on this page.
Page 1050 EngMod2T setup talk about pipes, transfer ports and the TubMax graph.
Page 1040 Basics of pipe design and how to influence where the point of maximum depression occurs.
Page 1030 Racing at Greymouth, its well worth a look to see Team GPR in action.
Page 1020 Pipe dimensions, Seattle Smittys hydroplanes. Husaburgs piston link.
Page 1010 Suspension Tuning.

Page 1000 has a lot of useful information and links. http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner/page1000?p=1130773139#post1130773139

Page 990 Blowdown STA, Ex porting plated cylinders, port layout and port angles.
Page 980 No links list but there is talk about spark energy and EGT
Page 970 Fuel - Oil and EGT talk
Page 960 Wob - Fuel and Oil Talk and Crank inertia.
Page 950 Its all about exhaust blow down …..
Page 940 Fixers 50cc adventures – ports & heads – Wob talks about Bad Gas.
Page 930 Frits 50cc pipe – Husburgs large links list, parts books, steering head brgs
Page 920 Big links list, allsorts. Tokoroa GP videos.
Page 910 No links list but the page is about fitting a 12V generator stator.
Page 900 Frits thoughts on O2 sensors – EFI Fueling theory – Wob on EGT
Page 890 DIY Foundry tips – EFI data – Detonation Management (tec paper) – more EFI
Page 880 Big list of Flettners Foundry posts and pictures.
Page 870 YZ & Bighorn Dyno results – Dyno Vids and EFI talk
Page 860 Air cooling and ducting and Carb air inlets, next page Greymouth Race
Page 850 1st run of the EFI Beast
Page 840 Husaburgs big links list on Power Jets – High temp epoxy and Ex port dam.
Page 830 Plugging piston pins – Cyl Heads (no radius) and Plug to Piston distance.
Page 820 Det sensor & Ignitec setup – Exhaust port dam – Boost Bottle – Insulating Paint
Page 810 Links – about Razing the Exhaust port floor
Page 800 Link to dyno graphs for the YZ & BigHorn EFI Bikes & a lot of EFI stuff
Page 790 Car & bike museum pics _ Wobs pipe.
Page 780 Setting up an IgniTec DC-CDI-Race-2 ignition – Big list of links.
Page 770 Wobs views on triple ex ports – first run of the EFI YZ250
Page 760 Port Angles – lots of Pipe design info – Fast model aero engine.
Page 750 Case Com – Basic 2T tuning – BigHorn EFI
Page 740 Case Vol – Deto – Inlet Length – Over rev deto.
Page 730 Pipes – Deto – Lambda – Temp probes – CrankCase CR – Variable headers.
Page 720 Inlet tract length – GP125 service manual – Picture of how to read a plug + Wobs comments
Page 710 Fuel and Power Jets - EGT and CHT - Crank build
Page 700 Talk about wide and low transfers – Case volume and dyno graph – det and Lambda sensors.
Page 690 Pipe talk and ideas about making mufflers.
Page 680 Talk about the Trombone pipe and more of Frits and Wobs views on pipes.
Page 670 Pipes – blowdown STA numbers – Trombone pipe.
Page 660 Lots of links on pipes – Ariel Arrow – and CVT
Page 650 Links – Frits and Wobs views on pipes – CVT transmissions – 30 vis 24 carb dyno graph
Page 640 Links to Wobs views on pipes – crank balance factor – connecting a laptop to the Ignitec
Page 630 More of Wobs views on pipes – Frame & wheel weights – correct O ring grove sizes
Page 620 Links to Cooling Water Flow – Case Comp and Pipes – Setting up 2T carburation.
Page 610 Simulation packages – combustion efficiency – transfer ducts – chamfered exhaust top edge.
Page 600 Books that can be down loaded and Frits talks about why 190 Ex duration is so good.
Page 580 No links but page is about mounting carbs and the 24mm pumper carb & 28hp dyno graph.
Page 570 No links but the page talks about carburation – emulsion tubes and pilot jets.
Page 560 No links, the page is mostly about 96 vis Av gas with dyno test.
Page 550 No links list but the page is mostly about TZ400 build and cranks and rods.
Page 540 No links, the page is mostly about Wobs success with the 400 project.
Page 530 Ignition – setting up det sensors without a dyno – wings inside reed valves – poly quad head
Page 520 Mostly about what some wheels weigh, ATAC valves and crank stuffers.
Page 510 Bucketracers general Links List
Page 500 Bucketracers links list of how to make a mid 20’s hp Suzuki GP125

Page 490 The Trombone, Ex port resonance and Transfer port stagger.
Page 480 A vid of the Trombone, transfer timing and hot gases entering the transfers because of insufficient blow-down for the rpm.
Page 470 Blow-down STA ... Specific Time Area.
Page 460 No list but the page talks about Boost Bottles.
Page 450 Links to the basic info for building a 30+ hp Bucket.
Page 440 No list, page talks about power and air correction jets.
Page 430 Carb inlet lengths and crankcase volumes.
Page 420 Transfer ports and the importance of the up swept angles, the Leaning Tower of Pisa principle explained.
Page 410 Rolling road dynos, main and power jet ratio.
Page 400 Links to the basic info for building a 30hp Suzuki GP125 Bucket engine.
Page 390 Links to Frits collection of Aprilia stuff.
Page 380 Transfer duct shape and STA's.
Page 370 No list but the page talks about Jan Thiel and racing 50's.
Page 360 Frits chamber calculations formula.
Page 350 PJ switching, Wob and crank shaft balance.
Page 340 Muriatic Acid, main brg float, Husburgs con rod dimensions.
Page 330 No list, page talks about expansion chambers, race gas.
Page 320 High temp silicon, Yama Bond, crankcase sealing, air solenoids Vid clips of Mamola.
Page 310 Copper for cooling, sprockets for cooling, steering head brgs.
Page 300 How to determine STA numbers.
Page 290 B/E dimensions, delivery ratio, Honda Ex Step, stinger nozzel
Page 280 Aprilia RSA port layout explained, pumper carb, links to gluing up the GP cases.
Page 270 Link list on how to make a decent high 20's hp Suzuki GP125 Bucket engine.
Page 260 Over rev cough and what it means, Mallory metal for crank balancing.
Page 250 27hp from a 1978 Suzuki GP125
Page 240 Aprilia RSA cylinder stuff.
Page 230 Porting Calculator and a lot of other useful tech links.
Page 220 RG50 part numbers, 2-stroke carb atomisers explained
Page 210 Page is mostly about the results from the TRRS
Page 200 Simple 18 hp Suzuki GP Bucket engine using a RG250 pipe.

Etc ...

On Page 500, Bucket has links to how Team ESE built their 26, 28 and 31 hp engines:- http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/86554-ESE-s-works-engine-tuner/page500

chrisc

14th November 2015, 12:24

Question for Wobbly/Frits/anyone else with lots of inlet testing experience below

From what I've read on the ESE thread I believe the straightest and shortest path from reed to carb (or disk to carb) is best for a highly tuned 2 stroke. I'm unsure if this is generally what all race 2 stroke tuners should aim for or if it's something that depends on the engine performance level and tracks raced at.

The Honda RS125 manifold changes went:
pre 95 NF4 (far right in photo) - Medium length rubber mount with a horizontal angle, small square 'stuffers'
95 to 97 NX4 (far left in photo) - Short straight rubber mount, longer larger stuffers
98 onwards NX4 (middle in photo) - Longer straight rubber mount, same longer larger stuffer and 95-97 NX4

Am I right in saying that the 98 onwards longer manifold was to increase lower RPM power? Would the short straight manifold be better for a highly tuned 125 for use on tracks with larger straights?

317249

TZ350

14th November 2015, 17:46

.............

317256

wobbly

14th November 2015, 17:49

The shorter old model straight rubber is best.
Here is a very old dyno test I did on a TM125MX motor we used to race in 125 National class karts, this was used with a VeeForce 2 and a bored SPJ powerjet carb..
Its a crap printout - used to be orange and red, but the short manifold looses no mid power, but is near 2 Hp up around peak.
The short rubber is obsolete and all but impossible to find.

TALLIS

14th November 2015, 21:09

I'm sure Honda spent millions dollars updating and developing there engine before it was erelevant , it's not like they have a dyno, or experience in 125's or people that know what there doing, what would they know.

Frits Overmars

15th November 2015, 00:16

From what I've read on the ESE thread I believe the straightest and shortest path from reed to carb (or disk to carb) is best for a highly tuned 2 stroke. I'm unsure if this is generally what all race 2 stroke tuners should aim for or if it's something that depends on the engine performance level and tracks raced at.
The Honda RS125 manifold changes went:
pre 95 NF4 (far right in photo) - Medium length rubber mount with a horizontal angle, small square 'stuffers'
95 to 97 NX4 (far left in photo) - Short straight rubber mount, longer larger stuffers
98 onwards NX4 (middle in photo) - Longer straight rubber mount, same longer larger stuffer and 95-97 NX4The NF4 was really a motocross engine; the slant manifold served to move the carburettor out of the way of the central rear shock absorber. The effect was twofold:
The flow was reluctant to follow the bend; it concentrated on the outside, so the reeds on that side were overloaded and perished, while the reeds on the opposite side could have been much thinner because they hardly saw any flow at all.
The same was true for the crankshaft main bearings: the left-side bearing hardly received any premix lubrication. And boy, were those Honda main bearings expensive.
The short straight manifold worked a lot better, as Wobbly wrote.
So why substitute it with the long straight manifold? My guess is: to better isolate the carburettor from engine vibrations.

Frits Overmars

15th November 2015, 00:24

I'm sure Honda spent millions dollars updating and developing there engine before it was erelevant , it's not like they have a dyno, or experience in 125's or people that know what there doing, what would they know.I don't really see the relevance of your reaction, but since you're here, tell us about your years at Honda R & D.
I'm getting the impression that each time Wobbly posts anything, it gets scorned. I've done my best to stay out of the dispute but the next time Wobbly says farewell, so will I. I'm sorry for all the good people here but I'll leave it to them to deal with the rioters that are destroying the atmosphere of the thread; I don't need this aggro.

dtenney

15th November 2015, 01:46

I don't really see the relevance of your reaction, but since you're here, tell us about your years at Honda R & D.
I'm getting the impression that each time Wobbly posts anything, it gets scorned. I've done my best to stay out of the dispute but the next time Wobbly says farewell, so will I. I'm sorry for all the good people here but I'll leave it to them to deal with the rioters that are destroying the atmosphere of the thread; I don't need this aggro.

Excellent reply Frits! You and Wobs have been very generous with your posts....thanks for that. I can assure you there are a lot of folks on this thread that really value the information being shared. For 2 stroke geeks this IS the place to hang out!

teriks

15th November 2015, 02:41

Excellent reply Frits! You and Wobs have been very generous with your posts....thanks for that. I can assure you there are a lot of folks on this thread that really value the information being shared. For 2 stroke geeks this IS the place to hang out!
The best place I'm aware of for sure, much due to real knowledge being shared so generously in contrast to many other forums.
Unfortunately I dont have much to contribute with compared to people like TZ, Wob, Frits, Flettner, Ken, Lightbulb.. to name just a few.
Perhaps because I have learned enough about the seemingly simple two-stroke to know that I know just about nothing..

Martin1981

15th November 2015, 02:46

I'm sure Honda spent millions dollars updating and developing there engine before it was erelevant , it's not like they have a dyno, or experience in 125's or people that know what there doing, what would they know.

stop that bullshit because we don`t want Wobbly and Frits to leave. Some stupid braindead Idiots seem not to know which Guys they are talk to when getting into a fight with wobbly and Frits. To Idiots like that i can only say shut up and leave before Frits and Wobbly do. Having worked and developed 2 stroke racing engines for probably 50 years or so seriousely and then getting told by an idiot that one is telling rubbish :facepalm: and bye the way, as far as i know wobbly worked for honda, didn`t he?

F5 Dave

15th November 2015, 07:07

Yeah cmon guys. Most of the issue are 4 stroke riders posting late at night. If you want to get drunk and stick it round a bit, and I've been guilty of internet cajoling after a few bevies, - But please leave this thread alone. It is a unique and long running resource.

Bert

15th November 2015, 07:25

Question for Wobbly/Frits/anyone else with lots of inlet testing experience below

The Honda RS125 manifold changes went:
pre 95 NF4 (far right in photo) - Medium length rubber mount with a horizontal angle, small square 'stuffers'
95 to 97 NX4 (far left in photo) - Short straight rubber mount, longer larger stuffers
98 onwards NX4 (middle in photo) - Longer straight rubber mount, same longer larger stuffer and 95-97 NX4

Am I right in saying that the 98 onwards longer manifold was to increase lower RPM power? Would the short straight manifold be better for a highly tuned 125 for use on tracks with larger straights?

317249

The shorter old model straight rubber is best.
Here is a very old dyno test I did on a TM125MX motor we used to race in 125 National class karts, this was used with a VeeForce 2 and a bored SPJ powerjet carb..
Its a crap printout - used to be orange and red, but the short manifold looses no mid power, but is near 2 Hp up around peak.
The short rubber is obsolete and all but impossible to find.

The NF4 was really a motocross engine; the slant manifold served to move the carburettor out of the way of the central rear shock absorber. The effect was twofold:
The flow was reluctant to follow the bend; it concentrated on the outside, so the reeds on that side were overloaded and perished, while the reeds on the opposite side could have been much thinner because they hardly saw any flow at all.
The same was true for the crankshaft main bearings: the left-side bearing hardly received any premix lubrication. And boy, were those Honda main bearings expensive.
The short straight manifold worked a lot better, as Wobbly wrote.
So why substitute it with the long straight manifold? My guess is: to better isolate the carburettor from engine vibrations.

Something for consideration.

98-2000ish didn't HRC released the redesigned Carb for the RS, shorter overall length and 'closer to slide' manifold mount and shorter bell mouth / intake track.
Not having the bits at hand to measure - I wander if the over lengths are the same? (Reed tip to bell mouth).

The float bowl extends in front of the manifold mount and behind bell mouth - Must find photos (husa help me out)...

Older model
317262
Later model
317263

Please don't ban me from the thread...

speedpro

15th November 2015, 07:27

Maybe there is a way to block people from posting to the thread? Or we could all just block the individuals

husaberg

15th November 2015, 08:35

Something for consideration.

98-2000ish didn't HRC released the redesigned Carb for the RS, shorter overall length and 'closer to slide' manifold mount and shorter bell mouth / intake track.
Not having the bits at hand to measure - I wander if the over lengths are the same? (Reed tip to bell mouth).

The float bowl extends in front of the manifold mount and behind bell mouth - Must find photos (husa help me out)...

Older model

Later model

Please don't ban me from the thread...

The Keihin shorty used on some KTMs and Kawasaki KX and likely other is about 15mm shorter than the traditional Keihin PJ
They also come with the Solenoid PJ and TPS.
The SPS sure seems even shorter in the bellmouth area.
Wobbly had mentioned the shorty Keihin years ago along with how to modify the PJ to raise its exit to higher up.
317264317265
I have one here I brought from Rob

lodgernz

15th November 2015, 08:57

Yeah cmon guys. Most of the issue are 4 stroke riders posting late at night. If you want to get drunk and stick it round a bit, and I've been guilty of internet cajoling after a few bevies, - But please leave this thread alone. It is a unique and long running resource.

Yes, sadly, many New zealand men who are nice people when sober, just can't go a night without drinking, usually by themselves, then doing stupid shit. Of course none of them admit to being alcoholics.
Let me just say to the trouble-makers: This thread has a wide following around NZ and, since we all know who you are, you can be sure that destruction of this thread as a result of your negative posts will have repercussions in your lives.
Frankly, if you don't race or tune 2-strokes, you have no reason to be reading this thread, let alone posting on it.

WilDun

15th November 2015, 09:35

Maybe there is a way to block people from posting to the thread? Or we could all just block the individuals

No doubt I will be criticized for this! but ............we have quite a few "real world" experts here who actually know about two strokes - and even four strokes! and who are very happy to contribute their knowledge, all of which has been earned by single mindedness, enthusiasm and hard work.
Amongst these experts there will always be differences simply because there are often different ways of achieving similar results.
Most of these guys are wise enough and strong enough to moderate their views, listen to someone else's point of view and comment on it in an orderly manner.
Unfortunately however, some will react indignantly and start swearing! (and I can swear with the best of them) - that is just a fact of life and can be tolerated to some extent when the discussion is going to eventually come to (at least) some sort of an agreement.

In everyday life, this reaction stands a (slightly) better chance of working, due to being able to interperet the gravity of situation by facial expressions. ( ie. If you see a face in a 'knot' you know to steer clear).
This happy situation however does not exist in forums, where the written word reigns supreme and I feel that swearing has really no place in the written word (except the odd little exception here and there when necessary).

It is also often used where some guys have run out of something meaningful to say, or whose limited vocabulary stops them from getting their message across in the written word.
Then there are those who swear just because they don't really know any other way, are pissed off (or maybe just pissed!) and then those who just who want to appear as mean guys (ie "bad ass" to our American friends).

The main point is that - these guys who are contributing their hard earned knowledge on this forum do not have to do that, they do it because they get a lot of pleasure from it and if they go, this great thread will just sink into the shit (sorry sewage) like so many threads on other forums have done!

This forum is very privileged to have them on it at all!

Yes I know I sound like a born again preacher and I know that I don't have a helluva lot of knowledge on this two stroke subject, don't ride bikes anymore and don't contribute much (like many others) - but I like it and as I don't have anybody at home to share this stuff with, this forum is the escape - it probably is for many others as well.

To see it get to this stage is pretty sad - TZ is just trying to carry on (as he always has done), but some of these people are so shortsighted they can't see what they are doing to his thread.
The moderator is repeatedly asking them to keep their petty opinions to themselves (in a gentlemanly way), but they obviously don't read his messages or see the mood of the contributors in general, or maybe they're just plain ignorant, can't see ahead and are only concerned with their own petty squabbles.

This thread is not for arguments, yes maybe some sensible debate - but there are plenty of other forums on the net where the subject doesn't really seem to be of any importance - BUT NOT THIS ONE!

Sorry for the "sermon"

WilDun

15th November 2015, 09:46

This thread has a wide following around NZ .....
Frankly, if you don't race or tune 2-strokes, you have no reason to be reading this thread, let alone posting on it.

I might add, this thread has a wide following around the world!

Sir, would you like to retract your last statement ? - that would exclude me completely and we just can't have that! :laugh:

sidecar bob

15th November 2015, 09:54

Let me just say to the trouble-makers: This thread has a wide following around NZ and, since we all know who you are, you can be sure that destruction of this thread as a result of your negative posts will have repercussions in your lives.

I'm trying to stay away from this thread out of respect, but I have to say, that is an extremely disturbing statement to make.
Could you please describe what these "repercussions" may be?
I trust you heard about Paris yesterday?
Here's an idea to get this thread back on track, everybody accept everybody else's contribution & opinions for what they are for the betterment of the topic, as refusal to even consider another's point of view doesn't come across as knowledgable, it comes across as arrogant.
Maybe watch this clip to the end, it illustrates what I'm saying, change the topic to two strokes.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=55h1FO8V_3w

F5 Dave

15th November 2015, 09:57

Ok we're all friends again now. Let's get back to the 2 stroke talk.

Erm. . Well I'm working on my 1970 T125 Stinger at present. It is a nut and bolt resto road bike so I'm not going to tune it even slightly. It'll be a first.

Ports are iron so the philosophy will save bulk time.

Although it might help the cooling if I got the squish actually close. But I'd have to scoop the heads a little. . .

Sketchy_Racer

15th November 2015, 10:06

Well in an attempt to get this thread back on track to two strokes, I've got a couple of questions that I am curious about with the NSR300s that we run.

Is running Ram air box a benefit to these bikes on NZ tracks? The reason I ask is there must be a point at which below that certain speed the ram air would have zero effect but at what speed does this become an advantage?

Also what effect does the ram air have on jetting. Is it required to run richer jetting to compensate for the ram air effect of do the carburettors sort themselves out.

For me it seems like a lot of extra complexity for potentially minimal gains, but I have no experience to know if it might be more than a minimal gain!

Anyway here is nice photo of the chambers that I'll hopefully be running for the Suzuki Series this year. We've had no end of problems with the stainless steel ones cracking so with a bit of luck the mild steel ones will be the good. I still plan on continuing with the hydroforming but between Work, Exams, Wedding and race season coming up there are just not enough hours in the day!

317266

Cheers,

Sketchy

Sketchy_Racer

15th November 2015, 10:07

Although it might help the cooling if I got the squish actually close. But I'd have to scoop the heads a little. . .

That's a slippery slope you're on to tuning there Dave!!

136kg136ps

15th November 2015, 10:15

Frits,Wob and others who post interesting and informative info.Please advise the rest of us where you may be found in the case your efforts are not given due appreciation as there are far more lurkers and those inspired by your efforts than you realise as well as a great deal of implications to our respective sports.

TZ started this as a simple build thread but as time has gone on the additions from Husa,Wil,Ken,Smitty and many others has turned this into the most informative,in depth,historical and practical compendium of 2 stroke knowledge available openly anywhere.Bravo to all on all that has happened so far.

husaberg

15th November 2015, 10:27

Well in an attempt to get this thread back on track to two strokes, I've got a couple of questions that I am curious about with the NSR300s that we run.

Is running Ram air box a benefit to these bikes on NZ tracks? The reason I ask is there must be a point at which below that certain speed the ram air would have zero effect but at what speed does this become an advantage?

Also what effect does the ram air have on jetting. Is it required to run richer jetting to compensate for the ram air effect of do the carburettors sort themselves out.

For me it seems like a lot of extra complexity for potentially minimal gains, but I have no experience to know if it might be more than a minimal gain!

Cheers,

Sketchy

Unlikely to be worth the heartache KISS
I will post an attachment or two
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301840
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=301841&d=1411461040
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301842
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301843

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301859
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301860
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301858
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301857
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301856

There are much larger gains to be made in real nz track conditions just making sure its getting large quantities of fresh clean cool air.
You need to be going at least 200km to see the benefit. ie only for a few seconds per lap
Yet there are far more corner and corner exits that will give better opportunities to decrease lap times and passing opportunities. My opinion.

there was an F3 NSR Honda Kit airbox I are assuming you have that already?
http://www.geckomotorcycles.co.uk/magento/hrc-honda-nsr250-formula-3-race-kit-mc21-mc18.html#
http://www.geckomotorcycles.co.uk/magento/mc21-honda-nsr250-hrc-airtray.html

teriks

15th November 2015, 10:48

<snip>
Anyway here is nice photo of the chambers that I'll hopefully be running for the Suzuki Series this year. We've had no end of problems with the stainless steel ones cracking so with a bit of luck the mild steel ones will be the good. I still plan on continuing with the hydroforming but between Work, Exams, Wedding and race season coming up there are just not enough hours in the day!

317266

Cheers,

Sketchy
Wow, someone knows how to weld!

teriks

15th November 2015, 11:00

Neil, if I'm not mistaken you're playing with the Profi F2A engine that happened to cross my desk when Profi started producing our MB40 F3D engine.
I dug up some old files: 190° exhaust timing, 140° transfer timing and 0,14 cc combustion volume, does that sound about right?
I found a huge mismatch between blowdown angle.area (good for 26500 rpm) and transfer angle.area (good for 44000 rpm) but as Profi was happy with its performance, he decided not to change it, so all I did was calculate some pipes. If I remember correctly pipe #1 would be delivered with the engine while pipe #2 was experimental.
All pipe lengths are from the piston edge; all diameters are internal. Notice the narrow header and the 4,2 mm stinger diameter on #2?
317243317244
I have seen plenty of such a mismatch in (great performing) F3D engines, including MB's, although not as extreme as the Profi F2A you described.
Have no clue why you'd want that, other than a very loose theory that it could have a positive influence on ignition timing and perhaps combustion.

WilDun

15th November 2015, 11:47

Here's an idea to get this thread back on track, everybody accept everybody else's contribution & opinions for what they are for the betterment of the topic, as refusal to even consider another's point of view doesn't come across as knowledgable, it comes across as arrogant.

Ha Ha, good clip! - and I can see that you have now become a "reformed" character - good boy, have some cake! :rolleyes:

Sketchy_Racer

15th November 2015, 13:01

Unlikely to be worth the heartache KISS
I will post an attachment or two
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301840
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=301841&d=1411461040
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301842
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301843

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301859
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301860
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301858
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301857
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/album.php?albumid=4844&attachmentid=301856

There are much larger gains to be made in real nz track conditions just making sure its getting large quantities of fresh clean cool air.
You need to be going at least 200km to see the benefit. ie only for a few seconds per lap
Yet there are far more corner and corner exits that will give better opportunities to decrease lap times and passing opportunities. My opinion.

there was an F3 NSR Honda Kit airbox I are assuming you have that already?
http://www.geckomotorcycles.co.uk/magento/hrc-honda-nsr250-formula-3-race-kit-mc21-mc18.html#
http://www.geckomotorcycles.co.uk/magento/mc21-honda-nsr250-hrc-airtray.html

Thanks for that Husa,

I believe that the one we have is based off the F3 one. I haven't run it on my bike before but on of the other lads had it in his but decided to get rid of it. Haha if there is no effect until kph then it'll never work on our bikes except the few meters of the straight where we get 210kph at manfeild. It'll be interesting to see our top speed at hampton downs. It might be an advantage there!

husaberg

15th November 2015, 13:38

Thanks for that Husa,

I believe that the one we have is based off the F3 one. I haven't run it on my bike before but on of the other lads had it in his but decided to get rid of it. Haha if there is no effect until kph then it'll never work on our bikes except the few meters of the straight where we get 210kph at manfeild. It'll be interesting to see our top speed at hampton downs. It might be an advantage there!

My muddled thoughts would be to work on what I see as the limiting factor of the NSR300 in F3 ie its capacity disadvantage as the rules allow for another 100cc. Plus the cranks are not fully serviceable or rebuildable.
Someone like you (with some impressive machining ability) could knock up a fully serviceable crank or too to kill these two birds while bringing the engine back closer to squarer bore and stroke. (three birds) maybe five birds with better inherent balance more modern smooth non pork chopped internal design.
Then add in a Atac style chamber to further improve drivability, I can't remember what Wob said it was worth but it was dramatic increase in drivability.

I have tested "boost bottles" between the carb and the reed.
They improve throttle response very low down in the revs off the pipe.
A couple of older quads used the idea, and one will hardly run at all off the bottom end if the bottle is removed.
But compared to a ATAC on the header they are virtually useless for improving power at the bottom of the useable band.
Whereas the wave/pressure action in the pipe is so much stronger that a flapper valve controlled chamber on the BSL500 gave 28% more power at around 7000 - was closed by 8000 and had virtually no effect at that rpm and up.

In the testing I did using an ATAC chamber with a flat throttle plate close to the header gave just over 30% more power on top of the extra
we already had from the powervalve , at the bottom of the powerband.
I have operated them with a servo using a rotating throttle plate, or you can even use a Rotax type powervalve diaphram pulling a flat blade with a port in it.
This worked even better with its spring return and a small compressed air bottle to solenoid valve drive it with ECU control.

I think that you are beating a dead horse a bit trying to get a big positive result from intake tuning.
The short pumper carb being able to be run "updraft" was one reason I suggested it.
The rotary valve setup needs the flow to enter the case, moving upward over the crank - not downdraft.
As the wave action in the Exhaust is WAY more powerful, then the result from a PV or a ATAC setup will get much more dramatic results, relatively easy to implement as well..

I was just pointing out that the idea of using water, great as it may be in theory, and on a dyno when looking for bottom end, it "works" just fine.
But in a controlled test to see if its was usefull, it failed, as the systems effect had to be reduced so much that any gain in bottom end was still offset by a loss in the top end.
As Burgess said,when the effect was usefull,it took too long to reheat the pipes.
My thoughts,from the testing I did with a PV and ATAC operated separately ( instead of combined together as many MX engines have now) is that this works real well with no down sides at all,and is easy to implement.

If you or someone can refine the original idea - then great.

Fast Freddies 500 tripple had them on 2 cylinders as well, but I found that the combo of independent atac and PV was the shit.
Adding them to a non PV cylinder is an easy way to gain a heap of free bottom though.
The clear ceramic coating I have NOT being using for years on KT100 pistons and chambers where its illegal, nor in World Champ winning stock class jet skis at Lake Havasu.
Several tech inspecting teams have commented about how lean the middle of our pistons run in comparison to the squish band,I told them that was all in the jetting of course.

I posted about this a while ago.The chamber needs to be about the swept vol of the cylinder.
When its big enough, going bigger does nothing.
The connecting tube should be about 1/2 the header dia, as short as possible, with the controlling throttle plate as close to the pipe as you can get it, and as close to the flange as you can get it.
The resonant effect works up to a specific rpm, then kills power real quick, so you need an rpm "switch" to control a solenoid that quickly snaps the plate open at a set point,unlike a powervalve that can be ramped.
Many current cylinders have an ATAC volume within the casting that is opened/closed at the same time as the powervalve.
This is easy but for sure not the best setup.

Yes I agree the sim calculates the transfer duct as a tapered pipe taken from the dimensions given, from this it calculates the volume.
And yes I also agree that it cannot know if it is ( although it must assume that it is ) a constant taper.
The less the real duct conforms to this ideal, the less accurate the sim is in its calculations in relation to the real diffuser.
Neels visits here sometimes - maybe he could enlighten us if any calculations are done for reverse flow down the duct, when blowdown overcomes case pressure, and the transfer duct actually acts as a diffuser and not a contraction.

TeeZee, Neels has sent us both the latest version to install.
Resend the packed sim when you have this done - and I will report if it crashes.

A boost bottle setup helps throttle response when getting back on the gas, after coasting into a corner at low rpm.
Could be usefull on a sprint track.
The ATAC boosts the whole bottom end, off the pipe, and works much more effectively due to the greater wave intensity in the header.

Honda obviously found out how to make these things work just as I did.
As short a connecting tube as you can get, diameter about 1/2 the header,ATAC vol about the same as the cylinder swept vol.
We had about 1/3 of the throttle plate hanging down in the header when it was open, in line with the flow direction.
By experiment you find the point where the resonating volume starts to kill power, and then go back a couple of hundred rpm, and snap it shut with a rpm driven solenoid.
Easy with the Ignitech programmable output.
There is NO advantage to ramping the closing point ie interconnecting it with the PowerValve is nowhere near as effective as a single point solenoid action.
Spencers Honda 500 Tripple had two of them on the outer pipes, and it was completely unrideable without them.
You could get even better useable band width by having a double volume system, where another plate valve opened and shut the entrance to a second bottle vol.
The two being open initially, then the second vol being shut off, creating a much smaller vol that was then shut of at a higher rpm.
But hey the simple thing works a treat on engines with no option for a PV.
.

The ATAC valve needs to be opened and closed at a set rpm, there is NO advantage to ramping it over an rpm span.
Thus the best, cheapest, quickest solution is a small push or pull, spring return solenoid, operated by an rpm switch.
The servo motor solution is overkill and unnecessarily complex.

Then we took the next step, and used my experience from the BSL500 and added an ATAC volume on top of each header tube, controlled by a flat blade that simple slid back
to connect the header to the ATAC volume via a short tube 1/2 the header diameter.
This was like the flat plate sliding throttles as used in F1 car injection systems.
The ATAC was only required to be opened instantly at a set rpm, so was also activated by the 5psi pressure under another diaphram.
The air driven ATAC added another 32% of extra power at the very bottom of the powerband, needed no extra power, easily lasted all day and was simply controlled by the ECU with an rpm switch in software.
Seems like the perfect system to be used in a 125/175/250/500/700 hydro boat.
A diaphram can easily be made to have sufficient stroke to do both jobs, without having to push a pipe 130mm or so with lots of power needed for a servo controlled system on a multi cylinder.

nodrog

15th November 2015, 14:06

Yes, sadly, many New zealand men who are nice people when sober, just can't go a night without drinking, usually by themselves, then doing stupid shit. Of course none of them admit to being alcoholics.
Let me just say to the trouble-makers: This thread has a wide following around NZ and, since we all know who you are, you can be sure that destruction of this thread as a result of your negative posts will have repercussions in your lives.
Frankly, if you don't race or tune 2-strokes, you have no reason to be reading this thread, let alone posting on it.

Fuck what a choc knob.

you sound quite scary, I bet you have all episodes of sons of Anarchy on dvd.

I can read whatever the fuck I want, and I'm trying to get my weedeater running properly.

d2t

15th November 2015, 14:21

Does anybody know of a good link that shows engine forces (like rotating/recipricating forces) relating to different configurations? There used to be a great site that had animations about the different engines used towards the end of the 500gp era (V2, V4, square 4, etc.) but of course that was more than a decade ago and I can't find it now. In particular, I'd like something that shows different firing orders (remember when "big-bang" was the hot new thing?). I know most of you guys have singles but maybe somebody can point me in the right direction. Thanks.

TZ350

15th November 2015, 14:49

... here is nice photo of the chambers that I'll hopefully be running for the Suzuki Series this year. We've had no end of problems with the stainless steel ones cracking so with a bit of luck the mild steel ones will be the good.

317266

Great looking work.

speedpro

15th November 2015, 16:06

I too have been doing 2-stroke stuff this weekend. Remachined my watercooled head combustion chamber to fit a different cylinder. The squish is now curved rather than straight so it matches the piston. A small thing but it feels like how it should be. I had to sink it back into the head with the result that the bowl became smaller. Compression was over 16:1 which seemed a bit high. I've remachined the bowl and dropped it back to about 15:1. Have to finish assembly and check it properly. Was hoping to have the time to pin the head to the cylinder for alignment but hasn't happened. Being a cheap commuter bike and with loose tolerances on the original there was no need for precision and the head was free to move about 1mm back and forth. Just lovely. I'm not changing to the Ignitech programmable ignition so left a little radius from squish band into the bowl. It seems to work OK doing that with the ignition we are running.

Sketchy - where are those billet heads and how are you locating them on the cylinders? I have been measuring crankcase stud locations and cylinder dimensions and have decided that a couple of new 8mm holes with dowels in them, one in front and one in back of the cylinder would work and be easily done.

TZ350

15th November 2015, 16:27

Man Cave.

317273 317272

My work bench and my Cave with the old F5 50 (two GP 3rd places) and the new Suzuki GP/NSR110 F4 bike I am building up, (the old Suzuki managed one GP 3rd place). The cave is the size of a single car garage. The big technology ambition is to replace the comfy chair with a lazy boy for after noon naps in my happy place.

No fancy gear here but I am lucky to have access at work to a lathe, mill drill, a press, tig and of course the dyno.

We race Buckets in NZ, and Team ESE run 2T's, its just what we have, others around the world have Free Tec 50's or Simpsons or Scooters and other small capacity race classes where people turn out racing machines from spaces even smaller than mine.

I take my hat off to them. Whether they are an accomplished builder or someone starting out. I don't care where in the world they are, if they have a project they are working on I would love to see posts about their progress and I am very grateful to the experienced tuners who share their knowledge with us here as we try to improve what we do.

Lately the Ryger thing has attracted more talk than action and has taken up a lot of space but I have learn't a few things from it and the associated links, like 4T BMEP is pretty much at its potential but 2Ts have a big way to go yet.

And if you only look at the actual fuel burnt, 2T's are way more efficient and less polluting than 4T's. Its the raw un burnt stuff spilled from 2T's that is the problem. Technology like EFI and stratified charge and the way its applied to 2T's is rapidly developing. The humble 2T may yet become the clean engine of choice. Things I would not have thought about if it was not for all the speculation about the Ryger engine.

I look forward to the Ryger reveal.

There are so many people around the world, some with really good workshops and others with more modest means working on their own projects. I would love to see more posts from them about what they are up to, it makes the world a more interesting, friendlier place.

seymour14

15th November 2015, 16:32

I sort of feel bad having got into two stokes now, all it has taught me is that the rules for buckets are way out of whack.

When 50cc two strokes in F5 still demolish 100cc four strokes, and there is a 125cc two stroke vs 150cc four stroke going on in F4, I can see that the odds are far and away in the two strokes favour, developed or not developed. And it is hard to talk up the virtues of something when the rules are majorly in its favour. My first half arsed attempt at a two stroke, having no motorcycle interest or skill at all, has produced a bike that beats four strokes hands down. And no, I don't follow the ESE thread at all, because it makes very little sense at all to me.

That to me is sad, because I know how much energy and skill Scott puts into our four strokes, he has taken them to a level never seen in buckets, I consider him like John Britten, an immense untapped talent. No one on this thread has built seventeen motorcycles with their own two hands. He just gets bitter because he knows that some people talk a lot, but never mention their faults, and we know their faults. A good human being accepts their strengths and their weaknesses. When you know that they don't, you have to doubt their word, just like you would doubt the word of a gambler who is always claiming nothing but wins...

Hopefully next year the rules will reflect this gulf. But then it leads me to think that this just becomes a never ending war of tit for tat.

As to some of the nastiness, not good, easier to find a past time that is not so bitter.

Think I will be moving on, never liked animosity, and there is little I can learn from people who talk word for word out of textbooks.

Always enjoyed your builds TZ, keep the faith.:niceone:

TZ350

15th November 2015, 17:04

I sort of feel bad having got into two stokes now, all it has taught me is that the rules for buckets are way out of whack.

I am not sure what they should be, but there has been some recent talk about a complete re visit of the rules.

When 50cc two strokes in F5 still demolish 100cc four strokes, and there is a 125cc two stroke vs 150cc four stroke going on in F4, I can see that the odds are far and away in the two strokes favour, developed or not developed.

That to me is sad, because I know how much energy and skill Scott puts into our four strokes, he has taken them to a level never seen in buckets, I consider him like John Britten, an immense untapped talent.

I think so too. And the FXR150 pretty much saved buckets, for a long while the 150's were un beatable. Its only now that one or two well developed 2T's are starting to win races again.

It interests me that the humble 2T may yet find a new lease of life on the wider world stage as a cleaner and greener engine than it was, I hope so anyway.

Always enjoyed your builds TZ, keep the faith.:niceone:

Thanks.

Yow Ling

15th November 2015, 17:45

Great looking work.

I think Thomas's cousin may have made them. The wrapper is printed in Thai

Sketchy_Racer

15th November 2015, 17:54

I think Thomas's cousin may have made them. The wrapper is printed in Thai

Shhhssssh I was going to try pass that welding off as my own :msn-wink:

husaberg

15th November 2015, 17:56

Shhhssssh I was going to try pass that welding off as my own :msn-wink:

Shit I thought it was just the Auckland Herald

Man Cave.

My work bench and my Cave with the old F5 50 (two GP 3rd places) and the new Suzuki GP/NSR110 F4 bike I am building up, (the old Suzuki managed one GP 3rd place). The cave is the size of a single car garage. The big technology .

Whats up with that hammer in the pic half of it looks invisible. Is this the first clear evidence that ESE is experimenting with stealth technology.
Seeing as the GSSB is reading this thread We aren't going to discuss the pot either
317273

mr bucketracer

15th November 2015, 18:25

Shit I thought it was just the Auckland Herald

Whats up with that hammer in the pic half of it looks invisible. Is this the first clear evidence that ESE is experimenting with stealth technology.
Seeing as the GSSB is reading this thread We aren't going to discuss the pot either
317273ha ha i like the hammer spot

Lightbulb

15th November 2015, 19:07

Neil, if I'm not mistaken you're playing with the Profi F2A engine that happened to cross my desk when Profi started producing our MB40 F3D engine.
I dug up some old files: 190° exhaust timing, 140° transfer timing and 0,14 cc combustion volume, does that sound about right?
I found a huge mismatch between blowdown angle.area (good for 26500 rpm) and transfer angle.area (good for 44000 rpm) but as Profi was happy with its performance, he decided not to change it, so all I did was calculate some pipes. If I remember correctly pipe #1 would be delivered with the engine while pipe #2 was experimental.
All pipe lengths are from the piston edge; all diameters are internal. Notice the narrow header and the 4,2 mm stinger diameter on #2?
317243317244

Hey Frits, what is the fix to the mismatch ?
I am all ears,/eyes
Can it be fixed by making the Exhaust with a higher timing or slightly wider exhaust port ?
Thanks Neil
I like the pan idea to get the engine over the torque dip to get it onto the pipe.
Neil

chrisc

15th November 2015, 19:15

The shorter old model straight rubber is best.
Here is a very old dyno test I did on a TM125MX motor we used to race in 125 National class karts...

The short straight manifold worked a lot better, as Wobbly wrote.
So why substitute it with the long straight manifold? My guess is: to better isolate the carburettor from engine vibrations.

Thanks for the reply lads but I'm unsure if I really grasped the main point of it.
Are you saying that the short straight manifold works best in that configuration (TM125MX) and compared to the NF4 angled rubber, or are you saying that as a rule of thumb that a shorter rubber is best. Even for a practically stock RS125 engine.

I figured the angled rubber would be a bad design given what Wobbly has written here before about the importance of a straight inlet and charge distribution to the reeds.

Not having the bits at hand to measure - I wander if the over lengths are the same? (Reed tip to bell mouth).
Older model
317262
Later model
317263

Interesting point. I can measure a older style carb, newer style carb and long rubber easy enough but that obsolete short rubber I don't have access too. Wobbly, might you have this info? I could always estimate it given I have an angled and long rubber here.

husaberg

15th November 2015, 19:34

Thanks for the reply lads but I'm unsure if I really grasped the main point of it.
Are you saying that the short straight manifold works best in that configuration (TM125MX) and compared to the NF4 angled rubber, or are you saying that as a rule of thumb that a shorter rubber is best. Even for a practically stock RS125 engine.

I figured the angled rubber would be a bad design given what Wobbly has written here before about the importance of a straight inlet and charge distribution to the reeds.

Interesting point. I can measure a older style carb, newer style carb and long rubber easy enough but that obsolete short rubber I don't have access too. Wobbly, might you have this info? I could always estimate it given I have an angled and long rubber here.

Pretty sure I posted all the dimensions previously that pic wob used as an illustration was part of a photo story on the web somewhere. I added to this thread. about a year ago.

bucketracer

15th November 2015, 19:36

TZee's Man Cave.

317289

Ha Ha ... :laugh::nya: spotted,4T bottom right corner.

chrisc

15th November 2015, 19:38

Apologies. Will go digging :hitcher:

husaberg

15th November 2015, 19:40

Apologies. Will go digging :hitcher:

Here it is. No call for any applogies Chris.

Yep, thats the trick shit part for the last of the MX based RS125s - NLA,except a few lying around that were used in open class CR125 engines before they stopped them in USA.
Thats worth a couple of Hp and then stick on a short PWM or better SPJ and thats another 1 1/2 at the top ( over PWK ) in the MX or early RS125.

http://www.risingsuncycles.com/images/Honda_parts/carb_isolators.htm
There is a short KR1 manifold that is still being made, that might work with a little finessing its meant for a 35mm
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=306945&d=1419244249
http://www.kr-1s.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5197
Swede tech do one
http://eknclassic.com/viewtopic.php?p=685540&sid=5e5084b45743e52df4eec67eea16e744
so does shark shifter
http://sharkshifter.com/zc/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1059
but not as good or as short as the proper ones

chrisc

15th November 2015, 21:06

Thanks for that Husa. I was thinking more about this (underlined and bold). If this is saying what I believe it to be saying then I have my answer. Of course, the dyno tells all and it might have to be something I try out eventually on my own engine. Cheers Wobbly, Husa

The CR125 will make around 2Hp with a dead straight intake, over the best bent one.
An old RS125 short manifold one if you are reving to 13.000 or the longer late model RS125 one if you need more mid power.
The VF2 works very well in a CR125/RS125 and I have not been able to get a stock cage of any sort to make as much power.

Frits Overmars

16th November 2015, 00:30

Frits, Wob and others who post interesting and informative info, please advise the rest of us where you may be found in the case your efforts are not given due appreciation as there are far more lurkers and those inspired by your efforts than you realise as well as a great deal of implications to our respective sports.Appreciation is not the point; I do feel appreciated by the majority here and I think so does Wobbly. I just got fed up with what I experience as Wobbly-bashing and I was hoping to raise some positive reactions, which you gave; thank you for that.
I have no intention to stop posting here (and even if I did, I still would not want to miss what's going on here, so I would take a peek every once in a while, like once a day :D).
Wob and I and a few other Kiwis are also contributing to a closed community, but that's no use to the rest of you. If I had to name an open forum, it would be pit-lane. Here are some links:
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t117p246-gp125-all-that-you-wanted-to-know-on-aprilia-rsa-125-and-more-by-mr-jan-thiel-and-mr-frits-overmars-part-1-locked
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t3173p657-gp125-all-that-you-wanted-to-know-on-aprilia-rsa-125-and-more-by-mr-jan-thiel-and-mr-frits-overmars-part-2#134197
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t117p318-gp125-all-that-you-wanted-to-know-on-aprilia-rsa-125-and-more-by-mr-jan-thiel-and-mr-frits-overmars-part-1-locked
http://www.pit-lane.biz/t117p333-gp125-all-that-you-wanted-to-know-on-aprilia-rsa-125-and-more-by-mr-jan-thiel-and-mr-frits-overmars-part-1-locked

98-2000ish didn't HRC released the redesigned Carb for the RS, shorter overall length and 'closer to slide' manifold mount and shorter bell mouth / intake track. Not having the bits at hand to measure - I wander if the over lengths are the same? (Reed tip to bell mouth). The float bowl extends in front of the manifold mount and behind bell mouth - Must find photos (husa help me out)...Take your pick:
317297317298317299317300317301

Is running Ram air box a benefit to these bikes on NZ tracks? The reason I ask is there must be a point at which below that certain speed the ram air would have zero effect but at what speed does this become an advantage?
Also what effect does the ram air have on jetting. Is it required to run richer jetting to compensate for the ram air effect of do the carburettors sort themselves out.
For me it seems like a lot of extra complexity for potentially minimal gains, but I have no experience to know if it might be more than a minimal gain!
There are much larger gains to be made in real nz track conditions just making sure its getting large quantities of fresh clean cool air. You need to be going at least 200km to see the benefit. ie only for a few seconds per lap.Husa nailed it: the main advantage of an air box is that the engine breathes cool air instead of air that has been pre-heated by exhaust headers, cooling fins or radiators.
The ram effect is proportional to the square of the vehicle speed. Measurements on a 250 cc Aprilia showed a pressure rise of 30 mbar at 260 km/h.
Calculating backward that would be 4,4 mbar at 100 km/h. This may look negligible but it still equals the pressure of a 60 mm petrol column. This is the real-life problem with air boxes: the ram effect tries to push the fuel in a carburettor's needle tube downward and it may even stop the fuel flow from the tank to the float bowl.

The remedy: enclose the whole carb, including all its breather tubes, in the airbox and connect the fuel tank breather to the air box via a large diameter tube.
It has to be large because the volume of air that has to pass through that tube not only has to equal the volume of fuel exiting the tank; it has to constantly adapt the pressure of the total air volume in the tank to the air box pressure (Aprilia circumvented the problem by using an electric fuel pump on the 250 cc racers).

I found a huge mismatch between blowdown angle.area (good for 26500 rpm) and transfer angle.area (good for 44000 rpm)
I have seen plenty of such a mismatch in (great performing) F3D engines, including MB's, although not as extreme as the Profi F2A you described. Have no clue why you'd want that, other than a very loose theory that it could have a positive influence on ignition timing and perhaps combustion.
Hey Frits, what is the fix to the mismatch ? Can it be fixed by making the Exhaust with a higher timing or slightly wider exhaust port ?Yes it could, but I would prefer to start by lowering the transfer timing; 140° is awfully high. Radiusing the exhaust window's top edge may also help.
But I learned the hard way that matching the blowdown angle.area to the transfer angle.area is not necessarily a good idea on small high-revving methanol-burning glowplug engines. They may need a certain amount of spent gases to pre-heat the fresh charge and help vaporize the methanol droplets, so you'd better be careful.

Lately the Ryger thing has attracted more talk than action and has taken up a lot of space but I have learn't a few things from it and the associated links, like 4T BMEP is pretty much at its potential but 2Ts have a big way to go yet.
And if you only look at the actual fuel burnt, 2T's are way more efficient and less polluting than 4T's. Its the raw un burnt stuff spilled from 2T's that is the problem. Technology like EFI and stratified charge and the way its applied to 2T's is rapidly developing. The humble 2T may yet become the clean engine of choice. Things I would not have thought about if it was not for all the speculation about the Ryger engine.I regret that I'm still not allowed to say much about the principles behind the Ryger engine; I must wait until I get the green light from the legal experts. But talking about Brake Mean Effective Pressure: it's true that naturally aspirated four-strokes seem to have reached their limit and it's also true that Jan Thiel's RSA two-stroke produces a BMEP that beats even the best naturally aspirated Formula 1 engines, but I must add that the Ryger does not exceed the RSA's BMEP; it about equals it, though at much higher revs, where the RSA would run completely out of breath.

seattle smitty

16th November 2015, 06:51

Yeah cmon guys. Most of the issue are 4 stroke riders posting late at night . . .

Dave, has it seemed to you that some here among us 2-strokers maybe go a little too far in baiting the 4-stroke crowd? The razzing can be all in good fun, but it can also get more and more pointed to where it starts sounding like real antagonism. I know that 2-stroke bike racers have reason to be bitter when the governing bodies have rigged the rules to favor 4-strokes, something that has not yet happened in outboard racing. But what did ordinary little amateur 4-stroke racers have to do with that, why should they be targets of our resentment. If a few of them feel provoked enough to come here and respond in kind, as they see it, maybe it shouldn't be a surprise. Personally, in my nearly seventy years of life I have been involved in one way or other with both 2-stroke and 4-stroke racing, from little 125cc singles to 27 liter aircraft V-12s, and all of it was a blast. And all of it was done in the company of good motorsports enthusiasts, and I think THAT is the bottom-line, that in the end we are all brothers of the motorsport world.

You younger guys can certainly argue with me on this one, but it seems to me that (at least in this country, maybe in yours) more recent generations than mine seem to feel that an individual needs to approach life with some attitude, some "Don't even think about crossing me or I'll be in your face!"
The flaw in this is that it doesn't allow for the possibility of misinterpretation of the other guy's intent. Nor does it allow for the sad fact the some of us (like ME) seem fated to live our lives as socially-inept clods, something we can't do much about, as much as we wish we could be cool. Having an attitude means you don't cut anybody very much slack. Yet this is exactly what should be the way a forum like this operates; we should make some allowances for individual styles and mannerisms, and varied abilities to express ourselves.

By the same token, while cutting the next guy a little slack when he has expressed himself in a less than appropriate way, we ought to watch our own reactions. If you asked, most members here would say they have no problem with others disagreeing with what they have said, but you can see that some do tend to take disagreement personally. So some of that attitude kicks in, they give a somewhat snotty answer, and away we go, snottiness begetting more snottiness. I'm lucky to have never been on the receiving end of any of this myself, because my responses always reflect not disagreement but abysmal ignorance, LOL.

Yeah, I know, you're thinking what pathetic stuff and it surely is, but come on, gents; cut each other some slack.

(And vive la France)

richban

16th November 2015, 08:01

Its seams the 50cc arms race has well and truly kicked off across the north island of NZ.

I had my first taste of 50 racing on the weekend. As I have said in another thread. I have never had so much fun going so slow. And by slow I mean proper slow on a near stock RS50. The only tools I took to the track were a tyre gauge and a hand pump. Refreshing after a few rounds of racing the NSR300.
Anyway! Its now time to play. And as there is this little event coming up next year. (THE F5 GP). Its time to put the bike on a diet and TRY to double or triple the power.

I will post some pics as I go and share the info here. I know Frits has posted some dimensions for a fantastic pipe in this thread before but buggered if I can find it. Q Moderator of all things internetberg.

What I would like to know is if I wanted to make 18hp. "And who wouldn't" What would the lowest rpm that this might be possible? I know there are quite a few factors to consider but if someone on here has tuned a 50 to that level? It would be nice to know the rpm that it made that power.

WilDun

16th November 2015, 08:05

Well said Smitty, :niceone:

Yes, - vive La France - et aussi vive "le rest of us"! :rolleyes:

lodgernz

16th November 2015, 08:42

OK, my recent paracetamol-fuelled rant was over the top and ill-advised.
Clearly I have offended people whom I like and admire, as well as some who appear unlikeable, and to all those I unreservedly apologise.

Frits and Wobbly seem to have a soft spot for this thread, despite our occasional lapses of decorum, and they, along with many others, have contributed priceless knowledge and experience that have helped amateur 2T tuners around the world extract previously undreamt-of performance from relatively unsuitable engines.
The loss of any of these precious resources would be to the detriment of the thread, and my talk of repercussions was merely to point out that someone who was seen as the cause of such detriment might not find themselves remembered kindly by their peers.

Hopefully, the details of the Ryger technology will be revealed to the public soon, and with Frits here, this thread could be the best place to learn the secrets and ask the questions.
Without Frits, we'll have to become very good at translating from French and Dutch on other forums.

Once again, I'm sorry for all offence caused.

ief

16th November 2015, 10:05

Engmod > Giving it a go myselfs on the little tomos engine, now engmod keeps telling me something exceeds the grid mesh or something, inlet or exhaust pipe to long or short but no mather what I change (nothing weird as far as I can see) it won't go away :no:

Anyone else stumbled into this?

teriks

16th November 2015, 11:28

Engmod > Giving it a go myselfs on the little tomos engine, now engmod keeps telling me something exceeds the grid mesh or something, inlet or exhaust pipe to long or short but no mather what I change (nothing weird as far as I can see) it won't go away :no:

Anyone else stumbled into this?
Im sure I did back when I got started, I even managed to model the pipe and inlet bell backwards.. the output of that sim was kind of useless.:doh:
In other words, check your model again. Oh, and spending a lot of time in the help-files...helps..

Good luck!

JanBros

16th November 2015, 11:35

Its seams the 50cc arms race has well and truly kicked off across the north island of NZ.

I had my first taste of 50 racing on the weekend. As I have said in another thread. I have never had so much fun going so slow. And by slow I mean proper slow on a near stock RS50.

:clap:
for 2 years now, I'm into moped-cross. MX with automatic scooters/mopeds. rules are simple : 2 working brakes, needs to be 50cc and engine and frame must be from the same model (so no automatic in a Honda MTX frame for example).
great great fun, almost as great as when I won the first motor-race I ever entered with a ZXR400.
As there are a lot of people entering that know how to MX, winning is impossible for me (they ride stock Honda sky's but fly over the track like they are on genuine MX-bikes), so my goal is to built the fastest bike :headbang: . But it's not easy as the gearing of scooters is fixed, so I need to find power at about 8.500rpm max AND good drive out of slow corners.

our toys (my sons and mine) :
http://users.telenet.be/jannemie/SKY/P1050243.JPG
http://users.telenet.be/jannemie/SKY/P1050244.JPG

m4r

16th November 2015, 11:47

Frits, would engmod be any useful for a rygerized engine?

teriks

16th November 2015, 11:55

Hey Frits, what is the fix to the mismatch ?
I am all ears,/eyes
Can it be fixed by making the Exhaust with a higher timing or slightly wider exhaust port ?
Thanks Neil
Neil

Yes it could, but I would prefer to start by lowering the transfer timing; 140° is awfully high. Radiusing the exhaust window's top edge may also help.
But I learned the hard way that matching the blowdown angle.area to the transfer angle.area is not necessarily a good idea on small high-revving methanol-burning glowplug engines. They may need a certain amount of spent gases to pre-heat the fresh charge and help vaporize the methanol droplets, so you'd better be careful.

I agree on lowering the transfers if possible.
For what its worth, I have had best luck with my F3D's running the transfers at 125°-130° and exhaust at around 194°-197°.
My, now dead, all time favorite cylinder had plenty of blowdown thoug:
317311
Why that particular cylinder outperformed everything else I have tested since I will probably never know.
The way i set it up it was a bit tricky to get on the pipe though, at least if you ask Rob about when he called for me in Melnik ages ago. ;)
-There's more to it than port areas for sure, most of it quite difficult to measure in such small scale.

TZ350

16th November 2015, 11:59

I know Frits has posted some dimensions for a fantastic pipe in this thread before but buggered if I can find it.

317313

317314

Here you go, and looking forward to some pictures as the build progresses.

TZ350

16th November 2015, 12:02

Engmod > Giving it a go myselfs on the little tomos engine, now engmod keeps telling me something exceeds the grid mesh or something, inlet or exhaust pipe to long or short but no mather what I change (nothing weird as far as I can see) it won't go away :no:

Anyone else stumbled into this?

Can you post the pack file or at least screen shots of the Engmod pages and I will see what can be done to get it working.

F5 Dave

16th November 2015, 12:02

Its seams the 50cc arms race has well and truly kicked off across the north island of NZ.

I had my first taste of 50 racing on the weekend. As I have said in another thread. I have never had so much fun going so slow. And by slow I mean proper slow on a near stock RS50. The only tools I took to the track were a tyre gauge and a hand pump. Refreshing after a few rounds of racing the NSR300.
Anyway! Its now time to play. And as there is this little event coming up next year. (THE F5 GP). Its time to put the bike on a diet and TRY to double or triple the power.

I will post some pics as I go and share the info here. I know Frits has posted some dimensions for a fantastic pipe in this thread before but buggered if I can find it. Q Moderator of all things internetberg.

What I would like to know is if I wanted to make 18hp. "And who wouldn't" What would the lowest rpm that this might be possible? I know there are quite a few factors to consider but if someone on here has tuned a 50 to that level? It would be nice to know the rpm that it made that power.

About 11, 000 should be enough if you employ normal practice.

Speedpro I'm leaving the door open here but I'll kick off at 80cc. Any advance?

TZ350

16th November 2015, 12:04

for 2 years now, I'm into moped-cross. MX with automatic scooters/mopeds. rules are simple : 2 working brakes, needs to be 50cc and engine and frame must be from the same model (so no automatic in a Honda MTX frame for example), great great fun.

http://users.telenet.be/jannemie/SKY/P1050244.JPG

Looks great, I would be keen to see more posts as you develop them for more power. I love how you have arranged the pipes and the mid pipe muffler stinger.

Yow Ling

16th November 2015, 12:28

What I would like to know is if I wanted to make 18hp. "And who wouldn't" What would the lowest rpm that this might be possible? I know there are quite a few factors to consider but if someone on here has tuned a 50 to that level? It would be nice to know the rpm that it made that power.

Jan Thiel has , but he doesn't come here too often

peewee

16th November 2015, 14:41

Frankly, if you don't race or tune 2-strokes, you have no business to be reading this thread, let alone posting on it.

sorry alittle late but ive been working a million hours it seems. some racers probly only ride the machine and know jack shit about the rest of the bike so you would have to narrow down the criteria further. in many places like north america, a 2t tuner simply meens a person who adjusts carburetors, again you would have to narrow things down even further. maybe all the way down to only the folks who do their own work, design their own parts, build their own stuff to the best of their meens, of course proof would be required as talk is cheap now days. ive always thought this section of the site should be private, with proof of past or current projects theyve done. this should keep out 99% of the trouble makers and lurkers who are likely just stealing the info, copying it and passing it off as their own brilliant ideas. you listening moderators ?

while im thinking of it i managed to find a bit of time today to finish the exterior on one of the cylinders :cool:

jasonu

16th November 2015, 15:03

sorry alittle late but ive been working a million hours it seems. some racers probly only ride the machine and know jack shit about the rest of the bike so you would have to narrow down the criteria further. in many places like north america, a 2t tuner simply meens a person who adjusts carburetors, again you would have to narrow things down even further. maybe all the way down to only the folks who do their own work, design their own parts, build their own stuff to the best of their meens, of course proof would be required as talk is cheap now days. ive always thought this section of the site should be private, with proof of past or current projects theyve done. this should keep out 99% of the trouble makers and lurkers who are likely just stealing the info, copying it and passing it off as their own brilliant ideas. you listening moderators ?

while im thinking of it i managed to find a bit of time today to finish the exterior on one of the cylinders :cool:

Does being shiny make it go faster?

peewee

16th November 2015, 15:12

when the welds are grinded flat with the burr it just goes shiny on its own. clean aluminum i suppose. u never welded anything i guess :rolleyes:. but it is gonna be alot faster than with the pencil dick sized aux ports. sorry i offended you some how. perhaps your a lurker stealing info ?

MotleyCrue

16th November 2015, 16:01

317313

317314

Here you go, and looking forward to some pictures as the build progresses.

I am not familiar with the build but I had a simple maybe stupid question, on the top drawing the diameter tapers down then back up again like a nozzle not far from the piston, is this due to rules specifying the diameter or is it there to generate a stronger wave action?

Lightbulb

16th November 2015, 16:42

I agree on lowering the transfers if possible.
For what its worth, I have had best luck with my F3D's running the transfers at 125°-130° and exhaust at around 194°-197°.
My, now dead, all time favorite cylinder had plenty of blowdown thoug:
317311
Why that particular cylinder outperformed everything else I have tested since I will probably never know.
The way i set it up it was a bit tricky to get on the pipe though, at least if you ask Rob about when he called for me in Melnik ages ago. ;)
-There's more to it than port areas for sure, most of it quite difficult to measure in such small scale.

Thanks guys for the input.
I know that every so many piston /liner sets, you will get one that goes exceptionally well. Yet when you look at roundness, rate of taper from exhaust to tdc, taper from bdc to bottom of the liner etc, you will find nothing.
There will be fast liner sets with out of round liners, by as much as 0.01mm , you will get fast ones that are round to less than 0.001mm. Some will have more taper, some will have less taper. I think the best ones are the ones where the actual port machining is just right. As cutters dull, the ports get smaller. I have seen where the bottom of the exhaust port was widened by 0.1mm and it dropped a whole lot of power.
So I will try some stuff , and will report what works. No point posting what does not work, cause I don't have enough time to type those up.
Neil

richban

16th November 2015, 17:50

I am not familiar with the build but I had a simple maybe stupid question, on the top drawing the diameter tapers down then back up again like a nozzle not far from the piston, is this due to rules specifying the diameter or is it there to generate a stronger wave action?

Yeah I was wondering about that as well.

TZ350

16th November 2015, 18:23

There is a good reason for it, I will see if I can find Frits original Post.

TZ350

16th November 2015, 18:43

... folks who do their own work, design their own parts, build their own stuff to the best of their meens, past or current projects they've done.

Yes, its great to see the work others are doing, I would love it if more people posted about the progress they are making on their projects.

TZ350

16th November 2015, 18:55

... on the drawing the diameter tapers down then back up again like a nozzle not far from the piston, is this due to rules specifying the diameter or is it there to generate a stronger wave action?
Yeah I was wondering about that as well.

Here you go ...

A suggestion was made to smooth out the step in the adaptor and try it again. Instinctively, this seemed likely to produce a positive result. In fact it wasn't. The result was worse in every respect. There was less peak power and the powerband was narrower!
Tim

Tim, right now you may be more interested in ' All that you wanted to know about the Aprilia RS50'. Here are some numbers to play around with. Exhaust pipes don't come any simpler than this, but don't let that fool you; this pipe was good for eight championships. Just don't show it to the Poms; year after year they keep trying to beat those Dutch 50 cc bikes :D.

317318

About the step in the exhaust duct: if there is a step and you remove it, you lose power. I think the main reason is that in removing the step you increase the duct volume. The Malossi cylinder I experimented with has no step at all, but as you can see in the pipe drawing, the exhaust duct is quite narrow. That works.

Lightbulb

16th November 2015, 19:38

As a geometric compression ratio, I am at about 16.5:1 or so, sometimes lower sometimes higher, depending on the density altitude. Slowly we are starting to find a correlation to compression and the number of head shims in an engine and the density Altitude, but seems that the RAD % is making more sense in tuning, especially for the needle valve position.
But as we go faster, it seems to change a little, as more load is on the engine the more fuel it can handle, and it seems that it actually seems that it needs more compression to get it to run properly. That maybe why Alex runs a 19:1 compression ratio, and may well be the only way to get them to run at over 290 k's and then they use the fuel to assist in the cooling of the engine, not just the air.
Neil

Frits Overmars

16th November 2015, 20:16

Frits, would engmod be any useful for a rygerized engine?Vannik is working at it.

on the top drawing the diameter tapers down then back up again like a nozzle not far from the piston, is this due to rules specifying the diameter or is it there to generate a stronger wave action?No rules. The Malossi cylinder's exhaust duct is such that the exhaust pipe is supposed to fit into it. Instead of the whole exhaust pipe, we slid a short piece of pipe into the duct and the exhaust pipe was mounted onto the protruding part. That little piece of pipe lent itself to experimenting and the drawing shows the outcome.

As a geometric compression ratio, I am at about 16.5:1 or so, sometimes lower sometimes higher, depending on the density altitude. Slowly we are starting to find a correlation to compression and the number of head shims in an engine and the density Altitude, but seems that the RAD % is making more sense in tuning, especially for the needle valve position.
But as we go faster, it seems to change a little, as more load is on the engine the more fuel it can handle, and it seems that it actually seems that it needs more compression to get it to run properly. That maybe why Alex runs a 19:1 compression ratio, and may well be the only way to get them to run at over 290 k's and then they use the fuel to assist in the cooling of the engine, not just the air.The drawback with head shims is that if you alter the combustion volume, you inadvertently also change the squish gap, and the burn speed with it.
High compression ratios reduce the torque dip; low ratios increase power and overrev but may make it more difficult to get the engine onto the pipe.
The F3D engines ran like hell with a 13,4 compression ratio if you could convince them to jump into the power band.
And yes, those methanol engines are all liquid cooled from the inside; they need hardly any cooling fins.

speedpro

16th November 2015, 20:57

u never welded anything i guess :rolleyes:.

Funny, if you knew Jason, maybe you do?

richban

16th November 2015, 21:45

Well I pulled the head of the RS50 tonight for a we look. First thing I did was see if my right angle grinder would fit down the bore. No chance at all.

So I sat down and started filing away sharp edges. I can get at the exhaust port but will not touch anything until I have measured where the barrel is currently sitting.

Filing cast iron barrels is the new knitting.

317323317324

teriks

16th November 2015, 23:38

So I will try some stuff , and will report what works. No point posting what does not work, cause I don't have enough time to type those up.
NeilProblem is that everything depends on just about everything else so plenty of opportunity to mess up, not to mention discarding a change that would have been a success if one just had optimized some other variable(s) to the new condition. I would just love the luxury of fixed ignition timing, not to mention a programmable ignition curve..

jasonu

17th November 2015, 05:33

i suppose. u never welded anything i guess :rolleyes:. ?

Couldn't be further from the truth...
Also, I wouldn't have ground on the welds especially for cosmetic purposes. You never know what might be lurking just under the surface, especially on welded cast alumin(i)um.

Lightbulb

17th November 2015, 06:05

Here is a piston I am trimming for a friends model diesel engine, 2.5cc
I set the compound over to about 0.75 deg, it is actually at an angle so that
every 0.04mm that the compound moves backwards is 0.001mm diameter cut.
With a dti it is set at 0.5mm per 40 mm travel.
One picture shows the colour change with a 0.003mm diameter cut and the other shows the liner at it's
fitted position and the oil colour change for the amount taken off to fit the piston 0.5 mm more up the bore.
The bore taper is about 0.00061mm per 1mm of travel, so about Ø 0.0012 per 1mm travel.
Measured taper is Ø 0.012 for 10mm

speedpro

17th November 2015, 06:05

317323317324

You'll be dropping the boring bar through that I expect.

I filed the bridge out of the boost ports on a Suzuki AC50 using needle files a long time ago. Still got the files, mostly as a reminder to never do it again. Was a big improvement but took forever

Frits Overmars

17th November 2015, 06:23

Here is a piston I am trimming for a friends model diesel engine, 2.5cc. I set the compound over to about 0.75 deg, it is actually at an angle so that every 0.04mm that the compound moves backwards is 0.001mm diameter cut. With a dti it is set at 0.05mm per 40 mm travel. One picture shows the colour change with a 0.003mm diameter cut and the other shows the liner at it's fitted position and the oil colour change for the amount taken off to fit the piston 0.5 mm more up the bore.The bore taper is about 0.00061mm per 1mm of travel, so about Ø 0.0012 per 1mm travel. Measured taper is Ø 0.012 for 10mmI love the way you work to the nearest foot, Neil :D.

richban

17th November 2015, 06:42

You'll be dropping the boring bar through that I expect. 53cc mike only 53cc.

Bert

17th November 2015, 12:25

Couldn't be further from the truth...
Also, I wouldn't have ground on the welds especially for cosmetic purposes. You never know what might be lurking just under the surface, especially on welded cast alumin(i)um.

Post up a pick of your lovely work on the RG400 cylinder conversion... Always loved that bike back in the day.

You lurker you :innocent:

jasonu

17th November 2015, 13:03

Post up a pick of your lovely work on the RG400 cylinder conversion... Always loved that bike back in the day.

You lurker you :innocent:

That motor is a bit old hat now but hopefully will do the business again some day...

Not so much lurking, just not much else to do these days...

peewee

17th November 2015, 14:48

Couldn't be further from the truth...
Also, I wouldn't have ground on the welds especially for cosmetic purposes. You never know what might be lurking just under the surface, especially on welded cast alumin(i)um.

im confident the jacketing will be leak free but lets assume a pin hole turns up. ill plug in the welder and fix it :cool:. not sure if thats how a professional would approach it but thats how im gonna do it

ken seeber

17th November 2015, 15:16

We are in the process of completing the design of a new Ø54 performance piston with a Ø15 pin, but want to keep the width between the piston pin bosses as narrow as possible. We are aware that Honda RS125 engines used a narrow 18 mm cage, whereas many others (inc RSA) use a cage width of 20, so are wondering if there were any deficiencies or shortcomings with the narrower cage, particularly bearing life.

Don’t worry Frits, this is not another Ryger mock-up, but just for a conventional, old fashioned engine. :yes:

speedpro

17th November 2015, 17:17

You would need to consider the rod width, surely? You couldn't go wrong using the RSA dimension. What rod was used, for comparison?

F5 Dave

17th November 2015, 17:26

im confident the jacketing will be leak free but lets assume a pin hole turns up. ill plug in the welder and fix it :cool:. not sure if thats how a professional would approach it but thats how im gonna do it

And I`d drill a small hole and push some devcon in it. but then i once (unsucessfully) glued the outside of a waterjacket on with the stuff. Dont call me Devcon Dave for nuttin.

ken seeber

17th November 2015, 18:07

You would need to consider the rod width, surely? You couldn't go wrong using the RSA dimension. What rod was used, for comparison?

Thnxs for response. My limited understanding is that in many cases the width of the rod (most almost usually the same top and bottom for mfg purposes) is the same as the piston pin diameter, ie a rod for a 14 mm pin is 14 wide. So, in our case, the rod would be 15 mm, which is narrower than either the 18 or 20 mm cage and accordingly the width between the pin bosses. In the narrower case, there is the likelihood for the ends of the rollers to be within the width of the rod eye under extreme end float situations.

We'd even be happy if everyone said they have had no dramas with the narrow cage. :banana:

husaberg

17th November 2015, 18:18

Thnxs for response. My limited understanding is that in many cases the width of the rod (most almost usually the same top and bottom for mfg purposes) is the same as the piston pin diameter, ie a rod for a 14 mm pin is 14 wide. So, in our case, the rod would be 15 mm, which is narrower than either the 18 or 20 mm cage and accordingly the width between the pin bosses. In the narrower case, there is the likelihood for the ends of the rollers to be within the width of the rod eye under extreme end float situations.

We'd even be happy if everyone said they have had no dramas with the narrow cage. :banana:

Look up the common size high performance little end bearings available and size it to suit them.
15 x 19 x 16.7
15 x 19 x 17.2
15 x 19 x 17
15 x 19 x 20
15 x 19 x 20

Bert

17th November 2015, 19:56

That motor is a bit old hat now but hopefully will do the business again some day...

Not so much lurking, just not much else to do these days...

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=317331&d=1274501719

Ok, I'm going to bite...
WTF is being built in that jig???
I'm thinking aircraft-ish.... Gyro??

speedpro

17th November 2015, 20:03

On end, aircraft engine mount. Firewall mounts are on the bottom.

ken seeber

17th November 2015, 23:31

Husa, thanks for the sizes, these are well documented, but really what we'd like to know "has anyone experienced the narrower cages shitting themselves when compared to the wider cages"?

jasonu

18th November 2015, 03:05

On end, aircraft engine mount. Firewall mounts are on the bottom.

Chokky fish to that man.
http://www.lancair.com/legacy/

Flettner

18th November 2015, 06:59

That motor is a bit old hat now but hopefully will do the business again some day...

Not so much lurking, just not much else to do these days...

What are we looking at? An aircraft engine frame? Last picture. Oh, I need to read to the end before posting, sorry.

F5 Dave

18th November 2015, 12:08

First two pics are Jasons rehash of the Steadman cocktail. And a fine job it was.

2T Institute

18th November 2015, 13:23

Husa, thanks for the sizes, these are well documented, but really what we'd like to know "has anyone experienced the narrower cages shitting themselves when compared to the wider cages"?

Only small end failures I've seen/had have been accopmanied with large amounts of deto, big end failures have been from copper plated M cages and not enough lubrication. Used slightly narrower and slightly wider cages big and small ends with no ill effects

WilDun

18th November 2015, 16:39

Chokky fish to that man.
http://www.lancair.com/legacy/

I've flown one of those! ...............where?...................Ardmore... .............. on MS flight Simulator :o

TZ350

18th November 2015, 18:54

317346

Chambers RG50 with a push and go ignition made by rewinding a race stater from a Loncin Race ignition for 12V to power the Ignitec. The Loncin rotor has a RG50 center bolted into it.

317342

The cylinder was modified for full reeds, a boost port and Boyesen like ports that got through to the top of the B transfers.

317343

The setup was run with two stage glass fiber reeds (Blue line) and heavier carbon fiber reeds (Red line).

317341

Then to see if the Boyesen like ports were doing anything worth while they were blocked off (Red line). Lost a bunch of top end but picked up some useful drive coming onto the pipe.

317345

Then the open duct between the boost port and B transfer ports was closed off (Red line).

317344

Blue, first run, Boyesen and Boost Duct open. Red Boyesen closed. Green, Boysens blocked plus Boost and B Transfers blocked off from each other.

The next move will be to keep the opening between the Boost and B Transfers blocked off and open the Boyesen like ducts up again.

The ambition is to run an RG50 and go better than 15 rwhp with it.

The last couple of weeks has all been about proving everything one step at a time..... After 160 plus runs the 85% width exhaust port is holding up well. so getting there bit by bit :niceone: and lots more things to try, like an exhaust port floor dam and a new 14K+ rpm pipe.

husaberg

18th November 2015, 19:17

.

Tell us about the ignition stator modifications Rob?
317348

F5 Dave

18th November 2015, 19:31

That's what I like to see. Testing mods. The amount of times I've reversed things that were a cert to be better yet weren't. Sometimes for a reason but at least you know.

TZ350

18th November 2015, 19:37

Tell us about the ignition stator modifications Rob?

The high voltage CDI winding's on the left were removed and the that side of the stater got a second set of 12V winding's.

317349

The Loncin hub cant be completely removed without breaking the magnets. So Chambers bored out the very center part and drilled out the rivets.

317350

Then the RG50 hub was glued and bolted in place. The rotor winds up being clamped between the RG50 hub and the remains of the original Loncin hub. It has worked a treat so far.

I am not sure if there were any photos taken of the process but I will have a look to see if there is anything to post.

breezy

18th November 2015, 22:51

317346

Chambers RG50 with a push and go ignition made by rewinding a race stater from a Loncin Race ignition for 12V to power the Ignitec. The Loncin rotor has a RG50 center bolted into it.

317342

The cylinder was modified for full reeds, a boost port and Boyesen like ports that got through to the top of the B transfers.

317343

The setup was run with two stage glass fiber reeds (Blue line) and heavier carbon fiber reeds (Red line).

317341

Then to see if the Boyesen like ports were doing anything worth while they were blocked off (Red line). Lost a bunch of top end but picked up some useful drive coming onto the pipe.

317345

Then the open duct between the boost port and B transfer ports was closed off (Red line).

317344

Blue, first run, Boyesen and Boost Duct open. Red Boyesen closed. Green, Boysens blocked plus Boost and B Transfers blocked off from each other.

The next move will be to keep the opening between the Boost and B Transfers blocked off and open the Boyesen like ducts up again.

The ambition is to run an RG50 and go better than 15 rwhp with it.

The last couple of weeks has all been about proving everything one step at a time..... After 160 plus runs the 85% width exhaust port is holding up well. so getting there bit by bit :niceone: and lots more things to try, like an exhaust port floor dam and a new 14K+ rpm pipe.

Luc Foekema ...facebook page is very good read plenty about 50cc engines.

breezy

19th November 2015, 00:50

morning, is there a specific/ rule of thumb, amount of degrees btdc that the pick up sensor should be positioned in relationship with the raised contact area on the outide of the rotor. this is stock 122 engine ignition.. it think there is info regarding something along these lines somewhere on here, but i cant find it..317355

sad to hear about Jonah Luma... my mom met him here ,in birmingham england , in a local gym she was a member of, said what a lovely bloke he was, "man mountain", she said!.... Great loss.

cotswold

19th November 2015, 04:16

Luc Foekema ...facebook page is very good read plenty about 50cc engines.

shhh............. next you'll be telling everyone to check out the Free tech 50 pages from the UK and europe

breezy

19th November 2015, 04:43

shhh............. next you'll be telling everyone to check out the Free tech 50 pages from the UK and europe

ooops.... sorry:facepalm:

ief

19th November 2015, 10:05

Cheers Teriks and TZ,

didn't have time yet to fully investigate, worked around it quit easily but the thing was more that the software pointed to the exhaust or carb and I am pretty sure that wasn't where the problem was. (though I'm sure I made some duff mistake somewhere)

Long story short, Neels is always watching ;) Sent him the pack file and then we'll find out what is what.

TZ350

19th November 2015, 12:32

morning, is there a specific/ rule of thumb, amount of degrees btdc that the pick up sensor should be positioned in relationship with the raised contact area on the outside of the rotor. this is stock 122 engine ignition.. it think there is info regarding something along these lines somewhere on here, but i cant find it..317355

sad to hear about Jonah Luma... my mom met him here ,in birmingham england , in a local gym she was a member of, said what a lovely bloke he was, "man mountain", she said!.... Great loss.

Hi Breezy, thank you for your comments about Jonah.

On an Ignitech the base advance is measured from the heal of the raised contact area back to the trigger with the piston at TDC. The maximum gap is 30 deg, 20 is probably ideal.

Below are some links to posts about measuring and setting the base advance on an Ignitech ignition. Bucketracer's post has pictures and a video clip, it is well worth a look.

Unless you speak Chec, IgniTech can't realy help you with setup advice.

Once I got my head around the "Base Advance" bit shown in the pics below the rest was easy.

I got the job of setting up NedKellys IgniTech programmable Ignition. This is how we went about it with one of Team ESE's bikes and Mt Eden Motorcycles dyno.

goose8

19th November 2015, 13:47

Well in an attempt to get this thread back on track to two strokes, I've got a couple of questions that I am curious about with the NSR300s that we run.

Is running Ram air box a benefit to these bikes on NZ tracks? The reason I ask is there must be a point at which below that certain speed the ram air would have zero effect but at what speed does this become an advantage?

Also what effect does the ram air have on jetting. Is it required to run richer jetting to compensate for the ram air effect of do the carburettors sort themselves out.

For me it seems like a lot of extra complexity for potentially minimal gains, but I have no experience to know if it might be more than a minimal gain!

Anyway here is nice photo of the chambers that I'll hopefully be running for the Suzuki Series this year. We've had no end of problems with the stainless steel ones cracking so with a bit of luck the mild steel ones will be the good. I still plan on continuing with the hydroforming but between Work, Exams, Wedding and race season coming up there are just not enough hours in the day!

317266

Cheers,

SketchyI ran ramair on my rgv in f3 an it only worked at puke in the last two gears didn't make any dif ference at any other track , I wouldn't do it again.

Tim Ey

19th November 2015, 21:29

TeeZee, where did you found that loncin Ignition? And how much Power does it make when converted to 12Volt?
I have got a few motocross rotors in the shop and need a good stator.

cheers
Tim

FastFred

20th November 2015, 06:37

TeeZee, where did you found that loncin Ignition? And how much Power does it make when converted to 12Volt?
I have got a few motocross rotors in the shop and need a good stator.

cheers
Tim

Not sure how many Watts TZ gets but here is a link to where you can get Loncin race ignitions:- http://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-stator-rotor.html and Ricky Stators is a good source for stators.

breezy

20th November 2015, 07:10

Hi Breezy, thank you for your comments about Jonah.

On an Ignitech the base advance is measured from the heal of the raised contact area back to the trigger with the piston at TDC. The maximum gap is 30 deg, 20 is probably ideal.

Below are some links to posts about measuring and setting the base advance on an Ignitech ignition. Bucketracer's post has pictures and a video clip, it is well worth a look.

Thanks TZ350,i went for 20 degrees. Ive cobbled it together for my bantam project engine, had hoped to set up statically bang on first time, but i have a standard ignition curve graph so i can put a strobe on if it fires up to adjust it up as needs be.

F5 Dave

20th November 2015, 20:56

Not sure how many Watts TZ gets but here is a link to where you can get Loncin race ignitions:- http://www.aliexpress.com/w/wholesale-stator-rotor.html and Ricky Stators is a good source for stators.
Coo, can someone explain this from that site, . . it seems to have issues.

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/M24-M27-Bipolar-flywheel-Magnetor-Stator-puller-Rotor-Puller-Fit-TRX-250R-YFZ-350-YFM80-100/32226878140.html

speedpro

20th November 2015, 21:06

double ended with a different thread at each end. funny ad though.

sonic_v

21st November 2015, 00:28

I wonder what was causing the lack of speed in the Rygers at their recent kart testing session?

Frits Overmars

21st November 2015, 00:56

Neil, if I'm not mistaken you're playing with the Profi F2A engine that happened to cross my desk when Profi started producing our MB40 F3D engine.
I dug up some old files: 190° exhaust timing, 140° transfer timing and 0,14 cc combustion volume, does that sound about right?
I found a huge mismatch between blowdown angle.area (good for 26500 rpm) and transfer angle.area (good for 44000 rpm) but as Profi was happy with its performance, he decided not to change it, so all I did was calculate some pipes. If I remember correctly pipe #1 would be delivered with the engine while pipe #2 was experimental.
All pipe lengths are from the piston edge; all diameters are internal. Notice the narrow header and the 4,2 mm stinger diameter on #2?
317244
Neil, I did some more digging and found experimental pipe #3. Forget about #2.
317393

AndreasL

21st November 2015, 01:58

Things are happening behind the scenes as we speak...
Or that's the way I like to see it. ;)

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1512811249046548&id=1456266058034401&substory_index=0

TZ350

21st November 2015, 03:56

Cool, can someone explain this from that site, . . it seems to have issues. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/M24-M27-Bipolar-flywheel-Magnetor-Stator-puller-Rotor-Puller-Fit-TRX-250R-YFZ-350-YFM80-100/32226878140.html

M24 M27 Bipolar flywheel Magneto Rotor Puller

317394

It has a Bipolar disorder that is happily managed by turning its draw bolt around.

Lightbulb

21st November 2015, 07:08

Neil, I did some more digging and found experimental pipe #3. Forget about #2.
317393

Thanks Frits, What do you suggest to go from the 11.5mm exhaust stack to the 9mm header diameter ?

I was thinking of some sort of high temp epoxy, but if particles come loose, it will ruin a good engine.
Neil

Jvenni

21st November 2015, 09:08

First off all..thanks for this super thread, at page 700 now.. trying getting 70 hp out of our 125 cc :wings:

There are two rumours about the ryger around here:
It has reliability issues, seizing when revs cq power went up
They never put the thing on a test bench, the 70 hp is just an best calculated guess.

But rumours..( and all local karters are kicked off the ryger facebook site..probably talking too much :laugh )

F5 Dave

21st November 2015, 10:11

Welcome to the site. Yes there will always be detractors and I would be surprised if there weren't some issues early on to feed those detractors. A new tech needs development.

peewee

21st November 2015, 14:17

hey wob do you normally use locating pins on these heads ? was thinking to drill through at the red mark and use some ktm pins then i could machine the combustion chamber exactly to the bore

jonny quest

21st November 2015, 14:28

Use a few dowels around studs. You already have a reference hole

tjbw

21st November 2015, 14:40

First off all..thanks for this super thread, at page 700 now.. trying getting 70 hp out of our 125 cc :wings:

There are two rumours about the ryger around here:
It has reliability issues, seizing when revs cq power went up

...

Anyone developing an engine would want to find ways to improve performance. Sometimes they push beyond the limits, and learn from the failures.

Frits Overmars

21st November 2015, 20:03

Thanks Frits, What do you suggest to go from the 11.5mm exhaust stack to the 9mm header diameter ?
I was thinking of some sort of high temp epoxy, but if particles come loose, it will ruin a good engine.I would not use any filler there. I'd rather slide the pipe into the exhaust duct.

Lightbulb

21st November 2015, 22:18

Thanks Frits, I'll give it a go and make one and see what happens.
Neil

JanBros

22nd November 2015, 00:09

looking for a christmas gift ?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2T-TWO-STROKE-SCENTED-CRAFT-MAN-CANDLE-RGV-TZR-RS-NSR-RD350-LC-YPVS-/151890703522?hash=item235d6434a2:g:jP4AAOSwcdBWS4i d&clk_rvr_id=934320152431&rmvSB=true

seattle smitty

22nd November 2015, 06:31

Yeah, but is it a castor-oiled 2-stroke candle?

TZ350

22nd November 2015, 18:34

.

2015 Mt Wellington 2 Hour.

317434

:first: first place went team to Team GPR

317429

Once again the 4T boys get to give us 2T guys the learn .... :laugh:

317431 317430

Fish and Andrew took :second: second place. They each did it the hard man way by riding at race pace each for a whole hour non stop. The difference between 1st and 2nd place was just 10 seconds.

317433 317432

The only 2T to finish took :third: third place. This was an amazing result after being knocked of in the horseshoe and having to push the bike back to the pits for repairs and re inspection before they could re join the race. They had lost four laps as a result of the off.

317446

2 hour results ......

TZ350

22nd November 2015, 18:34

The 2T's ran hard and fast at the front for most of the race.

Some of the hard luck stories.

317437

TF125 engine with a TS gearbox and pumper Tillotson carb. This team were serious contenders.

After some brilliant riding by both riders and with only 10min to go the bike high sided exiting the sweeper dumping its rider at the fastest part of circuit.

317438317435

Air cooled Kawasaki, possibly the fastest bike out there, lost its charging system and the battery expired with 5 minutes to go.

317439

Another front running 2T until it dropped its pipe with about 15 minutes to go.

317436

Seriously hard luck for 88. Nathaniel was fast from the get go on his 2T and within 35 minutes had lapped pretty much the whole field before bringing the bike in. Later, Jacob the other team rider went out on the backup bike and was cleaning up in fairly authoritative style. These guys would definitely have taken the win but for the fickle finger of fate.

TZ350

22nd November 2015, 18:34

.

Some of the interesting bikes at the 2 Hour.

317442

An old school classic Honda 4T twin.

317443 317441 317447

Scott and the Team GPR 2T. This has to be one of the very best examples of a Bucket racing special.

317444

Mike and Dave with Speedpros Team Shanny special.

317440

Young Stroud is 13 and took fourth place in the forty lapper, just plane natural talent.

TZ350

22nd November 2015, 18:35

Two Hour - D

Lightbulb

22nd November 2015, 21:01

A great report, thanks for the posting and the pictures, wish them all better for next year.
Neil

seymour14

22nd November 2015, 21:42

Looks like plenty of thrills and spills, thanks for taking the cool pics for us too far away to see it for ourselves.:2thumbsup

I presume our 2t just did some promotional laps on the wet Saturday?

TZ350

22nd November 2015, 21:53

I presume our 2t just did some promotional laps on the wet Saturday?

No, it ran on Sunday, went really well, I think it would have been a front runner in the 2 hour.

SwePatrick

22nd November 2015, 22:29

First off all..thanks for this super thread, at page 700 now.. trying getting 70 hp out of our 125 cc :wings:

There are two rumours about the ryger around here:
It has reliability issues, seizing when revs cq power went up
They never put the thing on a test bench, the 70 hp is just an best calculated guess.

But rumours..( and all local karters are kicked off the ryger facebook site..probably talking too much :laugh )

Well,,, it all comes together if those rumars are the truth.
But, A guy of Frits´s caliber i would guess is very careful of guessing those numbers.
Either it´s true, or Frits like those smoke and mirrors ;)

breezy

22nd November 2015, 23:44

Has anybody tried to or have any thoughts about a pressurised air box fitted to the end of carb on a piston ported engine. if the pressure was constantly kept at a relatively high pressure would we be able to not have to close the inlet port with the piston and once the transfers open have flow for the whole of the transfer period? bit like tz 350 plenum box but with unrestricted inlet port?

ken seeber

22nd November 2015, 23:54

Well,,, it all comes together if those rumars are the truth.
But, A guy of Frits´s caliber i would guess is very careful of guessing those numbers.
Either it´s true, or Frits like those smoke and mirrors ;)

I’d be so pissed off if it was a dud. Think about it. Even if it was detuned from its 125cc/70 hp/30k claims to more utilitarian applications, it would bring about huge worldwide interest in 2 stroke engines, an interest that most of us here have and share.
It would offer an opportunity for many of us to utilize the technology or variants of it. 4 stroke conversions, 2 stroke conversions, kits etc.
Mind you, going into established competition applications there would be issues, just like the Ryger possibly gaining acceptance into current CIK KZ classes leaving all the other engines behind in its wake. All the TM, IAME, Lenzo etc companies wouldn’t even be happy.
The best thing it has done though, was to give many the challenge and inspiration to think outside the current “square” of the Aprilia RSA/RSW benchmark engine format.

tjbw

23rd November 2015, 05:25

Has anybody tried to or have any thoughts about a pressurised air box fitted to the end of carb on a piston ported engine. if the pressure was constantly kept at a relatively high pressure would we be able to not have to close the inlet port with the piston and once the transfers open have flow for the whole of the transfer period? bit like tz 350 plenum box but with unrestricted inlet port?

Yes, I like the thought of a supercharger or turbocharger blowing air, but with direct fuel injection after exhaust port closes.

MotleyCrue

23rd November 2015, 07:06

Turbo 2 strokes have been around for years in the aftermarket, but I don't seem to remember an OEM turbo 2 stroke (other than completely non-relevant to the discussion engines like big diesel 2 strokes).

tjbw

23rd November 2015, 07:24

Turbo 2 strokes have been around for years in the aftermarket, but I don't seem to remember an OEM turbo 2 stroke (other than completely non-relevant to the discussion engines like big diesel 2 strokes).

DKW produced various bikes that used a charging piston. Trojan also produced an engine with a charging piston, but that was for 4 wheels.

Flettner

23rd November 2015, 07:58

I’d be so pissed off if it was a dud. Think about it. Even if it was detuned from its 125cc/70 hp/30k claims to more utilitarian applications, it would bring about huge worldwide interest in 2 stroke engines, an interest that most of us here have and share.
It would offer an opportunity for many of us to utilize the technology or variants of it. 4 stroke conversions, 2 stroke conversions, kits etc.
Mind you, going into established competition applications there would be issues, just like the Ryger possibly gaining acceptance into current CIK KZ classes leaving all the other engines behind in its wake. All the TM, IAME, Lenzo etc companies wouldn’t even be happy.
The best thing it has done though, was to give many the challenge and inspiration to think outside the current “square” of the Aprilia RSA/RSW benchmark engine format.

True that :laugh:

F5 Dave

23rd November 2015, 12:42

Can't believe the GPR guys took it to the Auckland guys on mt wgtn. It's a hard track to learn. Certainly took me several visits to go fast and the pace has quickened a lot since then. Along with the bumps.

Congrats Regan and Nick. I never made that impression when I'd tried. Impressed.

Good to see Fish did well. Hope he wasn't held back too much by the old superbike rider he dragged along. :laugh: good stuff.

seymour14

23rd November 2015, 13:34

Can't believe the GPR guys took it to the Auckland guys on mt wgtn. It's a hard track to learn. Certainly took me several visits to go fast and the pace has quickened a lot since then. Along with the bumps.

Congrats Regan and Nick. I never made that impression when I'd tried. Impressed.

Good to see Fish did well. Hope he wasn't held back too much by the old superbike rider he dragged along. :laugh: good stuff.

Nick especially has made some big inroads, that bike just rides so well around corners, probably a good thing in the end with Mt Wellington being a tight circuit.

I think the boys must be still recovering, have hardly heard a peep from them today. Bet they got home some time in the wee hours last night.

mr bucketracer

23rd November 2015, 14:46

.

Some of the interesting bikes at the 2 Hour.

317442

An old school classic Honda 4T twin.

317443 317441 317447

Scott and the Team GPR 2T. This has to be one of the very best examples of a Bucket racing special.

317444

Mike and Dave with Speedpros Team Shanny special.

317440

Young Stroud is 13 and took fourth place in the forty lapper, just plane natural talent.great pictures rob ! Good riding all round ,:ar15:

Yow Ling

23rd November 2015, 16:55

Can't believe the GPR guys took it to the Auckland guys on mt wgtn. It's a hard track to learn. Certainly took me several visits to go fast and the pace has quickened a lot since then. Along with the bumps.

Congrats Regan and Nick. I never made that impression when I'd tried. Impressed.

Good to see Fish did well. Hope he wasn't held back too much by the old superbike rider he dragged along. :laugh: good stuff.

They must have learned how to blip between downchanges

speedpro

23rd November 2015, 17:51

Well the 2Ts didn't fare very well in the 2-hour race. Seems to be an opportunity to consider rule changes to even the playing field. That's how it works isn't it?

Oh wait. 2Ts already have an unfair advantage :dodge:

kel

23rd November 2015, 17:57

317438

Air cooled Kawasaki, possibly the fastest bike out there,

:nono: Without question the quickest bike out there (in a straight line). Was the riders handicapping that rocket ship.

seymour14

23rd November 2015, 18:45

Well the 2Ts didn't fare very well in the 2-hour race. Seems to be an opportunity to consider rule changes to even the playing field. That's how it works isn't it?

Oh wait. 2Ts already have an unfair advantage :dodge:

Changed my mind on that one. Malcolm was impressed with our 2t, maybe we will just run with it anyway...

Cheers for helping out with the monetary issue after the race TZ, very sporting of you!

Rock on.:woohoo:

steamroller

23rd November 2015, 18:50

They must have learned how to blip between downchanges

Ha ha that's the one I don't no what i have been up to all them years

steamroller

23rd November 2015, 18:53

Well the 2Ts didn't fare very well in the 2-hour race. Seems to be an opportunity to consider rule changes to even the playing field. That's how it works isn't it?

Oh wait. 2Ts already have an unfair advantage :dodge:

The only bike with a wobbly set up what can I say :Oops:

Lightbulb

23rd November 2015, 19:23

This is how I cut the circlip grooves into the pistons.
The groove tool is 0.42mm wide for 0.4mm wire circlips.
I groove 0.23mm deep or 0.46mm diameter from touch. I like to tape the outer edge of piston crown just to make sure
I do not damage the seal band or top edge.
When clipping finished pistons, I make a plastic piston clamp, and put a paper washer between the piston and the fixture.
Normally I would put the circlips in before finishing the pistons, but this time did them afterwards.
Neil

andrew a

23rd November 2015, 19:29

Thanks for the report Rob. Great to see some of the Welly/Palmy boys doing well. How did the GPR 2T go? Kel your bike is looking very nice. You going to race in the Sandbaggers race this year?

seymour14

23rd November 2015, 19:33

The only bike with a wobbly set up what can I say :Oops:

Don't be mean! It's a new concept.

Folds easily for storage in a wheelie bin. :whistle::innocent:

seymour14

23rd November 2015, 19:35

Thanks for the report Rob. Great to see some of the Welly/Palmy boys doing well. How did the GPR 2T go? Kel your bike is looking very nice. You going to race in the Sandbaggers race this year?

Regan can reply to that, apparently it went well, but they were a bit rough with the new baby.

Bad Regan. Don't start it with a pistol drill again, bad bad Regan.:no:

speedpro

23rd November 2015, 19:38

The only bike with a wobbly set up what can I say :Oops:

How do you figure that? You need to take your axe and grind it somewhere else.

seymour14

23rd November 2015, 19:48

How do you figure that? You need to take your axe and grind it somewhere else.

It's all good humour, as we all know, every racer does what suits their own style, and their bikes set up.

If life was all one notion, it would get boring very fast.

Lets all enjoy the sport with good humour, good comradeship, and let this moment give us all determination to keep up the spirit of buckets. Was thrilled to hear TZ's reaction to the day, the sport is a bit more then our occasional ribbing.

But it does give us the odd laugh or two.:niceone:

mr bucketracer

23rd November 2015, 20:04

:nono: Without question the quickest bike out there (in a straight line). Was the riders handicapping that rocket ship.i must say , you bike dose look nice , and in green

steamroller

23rd November 2015, 20:05

Thanks for the report Rob. Great to see some of the Welly/Palmy boys doing well. How did the GPR 2T go? Kel your bike is looking very nice. You going to race in the Sandbaggers race this year?

It went very good could not have gone any better. Gary did the bluff roll of the dice and after that the pick up for the motor did shear off. Kerry has done an awesome job of the CNC barrel, really looking forward to racing it. Team GPR build 4 strokes and 2 strokes:beer:

TZ350

23rd November 2015, 20:18

Page 1380 ...

... increased the air correction jet diameter and up the main worked a treat providing a small increase in power everywhere.

317487

Red line best power with the original main and 1.25 air correction jet. Blue line, 1.45 air correction plus bigger main jet.

Great to have such a clear result of what can be achieved by adjusting the air correction jet to bend the fueling curve.

... http://www.highwaymanbikes.com/ I have linked some of his work before.

I am not Rob (TZ350)but Robinson covered it.
Remember carbs have over lapping circuits the air jet is used to compensate for the rate at which the fuelling of the main circuit is controlled by an increase in high speed airflow.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=301848&d=1411461089
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=301774&d=1411459844
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=301773&d=1411459844
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=301772&d=1411459844
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=301771&d=1411459844
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=301770&d=1411459844
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=301769&d=1411459844

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=301764&d=1411459796
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=301763&d=1411459796

TZ350

23rd November 2015, 20:37

Great to see some of the Welly/Palmy boys doing well. How did the GPR 2T go?

317463

The GPR 2T looks good and went very well but the ignition trigger rotor broke loose.

317462

Apparently it came away after the bike had been started several times using a battery drill to spin it over by the crank nut.

Not a biggie, with any new build there are always little issues that need to be resolved.

seymour14

23rd November 2015, 21:01

317463

The GPR 2T looks good and went very well but the ignition trigger rotor broke loose.

317462

Apparently it came away after the bike had been started several times using a battery drill to spin it over by the crank nut.

Not a biggie, with any new build there are always little issues that need to be resolved.

There's always teething problems, everyone's been there before!

speedpro

23rd November 2015, 21:02

The peak of bucket chassis development is certainly the GPR chassis at the moment. Very nice units.
That 2T motor looks very "competitive" with it's little built-in water pump housing.

kel

23rd November 2015, 21:41

You going to race in the Sandbaggers race this year?
I sure would like a trophy. But seriously - only went in that class last time out as I didn't have a MNZ licence.
To be honest I thought I had lost all interest in kart track racing, but last weekend was a blast. You might be stuck with me for a while yet :hug:
Well done AMCC, was well run and enjoyable event!
Will get some 2hr on board footage uploaded in the next couple of days.

seymour14

23rd November 2015, 21:42

The peak of bucket chassis development is certainly the GPR chassis at the moment. Very nice units.
That 2T motor looks very "competitive" with it's little built-in water pump housing.

Wouldn't be interested in the project if it wasn't fully legit. She's all above board, and allergic to water.

seymour14

23rd November 2015, 21:44

I sure would like a trophy. But seriously - only went in that class last time out as I didn't have a MNZ licence.
To be honest I thought I had lost all interest in kart track racing, but last weekend was a blast. You might be stuck with me for a while yet :hug:
Well done AMCC, was well run and enjoyable event!
Will get some 2hr on board footage uploaded in the next couple of days.

Be good to see. Scott tells me that the GPR's forgot to press go on their camera. So that was extra weight doing not a hell of a lot of anything.

Hope no one bothered to wave at it as they rode by.

Bert

23rd November 2015, 21:54

Wouldn't be interested in the project if it wasn't fully legit. She's all above board, and allergic to water.

I think you took the bait there buddy... :psst::niceone:

SwePatrick

23rd November 2015, 21:57

Page 1380 ...

A long time ago i spoked about my Honda MT5 engine.
You said i should get back to you with news.
Now i finally got some worth telling about.
I now own a dyno that´s measuring at the enginesprocket.
And this is the first pull ever with this engine in my bench.

I have spent a couple of weeks with a smaller engine to sort things out.
The small engine(66cc MT5) produced with fairly low tune in cylinder a healthy 19hp at 11200rpm with a worn out piston but with a really good register.
It was equipped with an old Autisa cylinder bored up to 45.5mm, just portmatched it to crankcase and grinded off some debris in all ports.
Keihin round throtte 27mm
'derbi design' reed.(tnx Wobbly)
Morbidelli pipe(homemade copy)

However, this was my dynomule, nothing to fancy.

Now to my serious MT5 engine that i´ll post a dynoscreenshot of in this post.
This engine is built to not make a ny worldrecords in torque as i want to be kind and not stress the 'under dimensioned' clutch/gearbox.
Setup:

Honda MT5 engine 5speed.(6speed breakes very easily i noticed)
132cc
6 disc clutch
MT8 crankshaft with 110mm samarin rod.(stroked to 50mm)
Kawasaki KX 125 -86 cylinder bored to 58mm(Woessner CR144 piston)
A lot of porting (199/138/138/140 durations)
Derbi design reed.
Keihin PWM 40mm, slightly modded.
Ignitech ignition, ran at the first pull(screenshot) exactly the same curve as my small 66cc engine, just raised rev,stop.
Homemade combustionchamber insert.
Homemade pipe, Actually built just with 'feeling', no calculations at all.
A lot of welding has been done to the crankcase to accept crankshaft and cylinder, Finally coated crankcase to block out some heat from gearbox.

And about the dynopull,, i hadn´t connected cooling so i just went for a quick to see if ignition worked.
When i realized it did work i let of the throtttle a bit at about ~11000rpm.
Things were much faster than the small engine, i couldn´t keep up *lol*
I also gave it full throttle at about ~8000rpm.

The weather corrections was a bit off when making screenshot, the final number is actually a little bit higher.
And remember, dyno reports in HP and Lbf-ft.

Screenshots:

https://scontent-arn2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/11988653_10153462587649475_1461961640880729817_n.j pg?oh=be81ded600db0e9f1d5e6f25cd7141ad&oe=56B2F4D7

There is some tuning left as this was the first pull ever with ignitech on this engine.
Previously had PVL(458)
I aim for 40hp+ at sprocket, it was 39.09 in corrected hp in this pull and 17.xxlbf.ft in torque.
44 should be a cool number as Derbi produced that also , i got a small advantage as i got 8cc more.

Rgds
Patrick

Edit:
A picture of actual engine in dyno:
https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/12274467_10153464260769475_4145253838700306225_n.j pg?oh=3a95267ba60fee540f20bdbc41babca5&oe=56F53B9F

breezy

23rd November 2015, 23:06

looking good Patrick ... congratulations:clap:

MotleyCrue

24th November 2015, 03:13

Patrick, looking at your picture on the dyno, the carb is angled a lot to horizontal, probably twice as much as I have ever used. I have an application where a steep angled carb would be ideal but I wasn't sure whether running a regular carb at a steep angle would work or whether a 4 stroke "downdraft" motorcycle carb like they use on 600 cc and 1000cc engines could be made to work right on a 2 stroke and what modifications that would entail ? How steep can a regular Mikuni or Keihin be mounted?

Also have you or anyone run a Lectron carb? I have heard that they are fantastic and I have heard they are anything but fantastic (not enough circuits).

SwePatrick

24th November 2015, 03:25

Breezy - Thanks =)

Motley: I have actually not made any mods to floater or anything inside the bowl.
This Keihin PWM seems to accept this steep angle.
The only mods i´ve done is in the bellmouth and inside(smoothened the bore)

I had an Mikuni 39mm TMX before(from an Honda CR250), And it overfloated like crazy when engine hit the powerband.
It just sprayed fuel all over the engine from the airholes that ventilates the bowl *lol*
That carb i had to almost have horisontal.

Edit: about Lectron, once you got them perfect, they are almost just that, Perfect.
But this is a 'moped dragracer' and budget is kept low.
A friend runs a 32mm lectron on his 90cc Honda MT5 engine running on alcohol, but it´s a hell of a job getting it perfect.

And as i port and polish a lot of engines, i know that bends is an enemy of all airflow ;)

TZ350

24th November 2015, 05:43

A long time ago I spoke about my Honda MT5 engine. I now own a dyno that´s measuring at the engine sprocket. And this is the first pull ever with this engine in my bench.

Good work, I am very impressed ... :niceone:

I hope to have a new engine to test soon too.

FastFred

24th November 2015, 06:19

The GPR 2T looks good and went very well but the ignition trigger rotor broke loose. Apparently it came away after the bike had been started several times using a battery drill to spin it over by the crank nut.
There's always teething problems, everyone's been there before!

I think TZ was very impressed with starting the bike by spinning it over with a battery drill. You don't have to put your helmet on and it saves all that exhausting pushing around the pits. Good Idea ... :yes:

seymour14

24th November 2015, 06:26

I think TZ was very impressed with starting the bike by spinning it over with a battery drill. You don't have to put your helmet on and it saves all that exhausting pushing around the pits. Good Idea ... :yes:

At least the weren't "kick starting" it.:laugh:

In one respect, at least it has had an outing, shown up a weak spot, and something can be done about it.

FastFred

24th November 2015, 06:46

At least the weren't "kick starting" it.:laugh:

Bet TZ would have liked to kick his EFI bike when it was being troublesome..... :D

jasonu

24th November 2015, 07:08

Well the 2Ts didn't fare very well in the 2-hour race. Seems to be an opportunity to consider rule changes to even the playing field. That's how it works isn't it?

Oh wait. 2Ts already have an unfair advantage :dodge:

Mike you naughty boy!!!

jasonu

24th November 2015, 07:20

In one respect, at least it has had an outing, shown up a weak spot, and something can be done about it.

That's what it is all about!!!

SwePatrick

24th November 2015, 08:50

Good work, I am very impressed ... :niceone:

I hope to have a new engine to test soon too.

Thanks, yes i´m following your project =)

And by the way,,, the noise my engine makes.. insane!
The exhaustnote is like an old 80´s 250cc,, but revs like an 70´s 50cc dirtbike, Goosebumps :)

peewee

24th November 2015, 16:02

the newer pwk can function at a fairly steep angle. i measured it one time but cant recall off top my head

rodg

24th November 2015, 19:10

.

2015 Mt Wellington 2 Hour.

317434

:first: first place went team to Team GPR

317429

Once again the 4T boys get to give us 2T guys the learn .... :laugh:

317431 317430

Fish and Andrew took :second: second place. They each did it the hard man way by riding at race pace each for a whole hour non stop. The difference between 1st and 2nd place was just 10 seconds.

317433 317432

The only 2T to finish took :third: third place. This was an amazing result after being knocked of in the horseshoe and having to push the bike back to the pits for repairs and re inspection before they could re join the race. They had lost four laps as a result of the off.

Thanks to the ESE boys lending me their dyno and expertise the Friday before the 2 hour. Fitted a new pipe and with a little bit of fiddling found some nice wide horsepower. Rob's suggestion to increase the air correction jet diameter and up the main worked a treat providing a small increase in power everywhere. Chris and I piloted the bike to 3rd in the 2 hour behind two pretty quick teams. Not too bad considering we had a bit of an off and lost four laps. We ended up 3 laps behind the leaders.

317487317488

TZ350

24th November 2015, 20:35

... increased the air correction jet diameter and up the main worked a treat providing a small increase in power everywhere.

317487

Red line best power with the original main and 1.25 air correction jet. Blue line, 1.45 air correction plus bigger main jet.

Great to have such a clear result of what can be achieved by adjusting the air correction jet to bend the fueling curve.

TZ350

24th November 2015, 21:50

.

Interesting supercharged 2T:- http://www.odd-bike.com/2014/02/dkw-supercharged-two-strokes-force-fed.html

Carb Tuning. http://www.3cyl.com/mraxl/manuals/carbtune/carbtune.htm

MotleyCrue

25th November 2015, 04:45

the newer pwk can function at a fairly steep angle. i measured it one time but cant recall off top my head

The "downdraft" Keihin FCR carbs such as

http://www.ebay.com/itm/KEIHIN-FCR-39-CARBURETORS-FZR-YZF-750-1000-EXUP-OWO1-CBR-ZX7-ZX9-ZX10-ZX11-GSXR-/271340133101?hash=item3f2d21daed:m:m71ve_LHls3ZDnT Daf-9G9A&vxp=mtr

Can one of these carbs be made to work on a 2 stroke engine? They are pretty steep even with the bowl flat and very steep when the bowl is inclined. They are relatively expensive even for one and I need two, so if it's not doable I don't want to waste all that money, but getting the carbs very steep would solve a lot of other problems.

SwePatrick

25th November 2015, 05:40

Mine pwm carb is at it´s limit, if i alter the angle a little bit steeper it starts to drip from ventilation.
Maybe one could make a deeper bottom plug on bowl and make the jets reach longer into that plug, then lower floatlevel.

PWM and some newer PWK´s (Airstriker?) has a new separated idlesystem from lowspeedjet.
It runs through the chockesystem instead, throttle is resting dead on the floor, air runs through the choke hole instead.
You adjust the idle with turning the chokeknob.

Really neat feature actually =)

http://www.pbase.com/jdjetting1/image/43260810

TZ350

25th November 2015, 06:27

317507

Old air cooled Suzuki GP100 soon to be a 30+hp water cooled 110cc six speed Suzuki GP-NSR Frankenstein engine.

This quote links back to the back story so far.

Another step on the way to building the Suzuki GP/NSR110 super Frankenstein engine, the crankshaft.
316848
The GP/NSR110 crank parts.

The crankshaft post goes to the GP/NSR110 back story. The whole build can be read by following the backstory posts like a trail of bread crumbs.

Another step forward, the cylinder to crankcase adapter/spacer plate.

317506

I picked up all the finished machining for the crankcases yesterday. There is still a lot of hand work too be done on things like cutting in the transfer ports and inlet tract but now I have everything to start finishing it off and putting it together.

317508

The engine is going to run a dry sump for the primary gears and clutch. The wet clutch plates are going to be lubricated by pumping oil up the center of the gearbox input shaft to the inside of the clutch hub. Where it will get centrifuged out through holes in the inner hub to lubricate the clutch plates. After that it will drain back into the sump leaving the clutch assembly free to rotate in air instead of churning around in a bath of power robbing oil.

For a pump I am going to use a diaphragm fuel pump. I had thought of running the gear cluster dry sump as well but just did not have the courage to rely on getting the oil spray right for lubricating the gears, maybe next time.

At the GP, someone in the know told me there are those planning to get the 110 rule thing that was 105, now 110 changed back to 107. That will work for the shorter stroke MB100 boys who got the rule changed in the first place so they could run the cheap over sized KT100 pistons but it would disadvantage all the other 100cc makes like Kawasaki and Suzuki who then couldn't. To be fair, a rule change to make the KT100 piston available without de stroking the crankshaft needs to make the advantage available to everybody in that class. And that means 110cc max oversize for F4 100cc 2T's if you wan't to share the love around with the cheaper over sized pistons.

In the end it does not really matter to me what cc rule change advantage they try to give themselves. If it disadvantages my current build, I will just make another crankshaft with a stroke to suit. :laugh:

Currently I have been working with old cylinders that need re plating to meet the re bored part of the rule. On any cylinder shortening the stroke increases the blow down STA without any porting required. So if I have to shorten the stroke anymore to stay within any new tricky dicky rule change I will be able to enjoy the advantage of the correct amount of blow down and not having to port and re plate the cylinder. Basically I will be getting the same power/rpm for the effort of a crank build, as much power as before for less effort, a win win in my book. I just wish I had figured that before I started the 110cc version.

317511

Oooo look another crankshaft could this be a 106cc version, I have been thinking ahead and now have 115cc 110cc and 106cc crankshafts for the GP/NSR hybrid and could easily build a 100cc version if I had too. A 125cc version would be difficult because of limited space in the crankcase.

The only rule change that would really effect Team ESE would be banning the spirit of Bucket racing and limiting cleverness. There is the Hyosung standard production cup, class, or whatever it is, for those who want to take the easy path and not have to make any real effort to develop a reliable front running engine. That sort of racing is as interesting as Bat shit in my opinion.

The history of Racing is littered with good ideas that have effectively been banned because others have been to lazy or technically challenged to keep up. In Buckets, part of winning is building something special, and in this class I think attempts to limit that are wrong.

breezy

25th November 2015, 06:56

.

Interesting supercharged 2T:- http://www.odd-bike.com/2014/02/dkw-supercharged-two-strokes-force-fed.html

Carb Tuning. http://www.3cyl.com/mraxl/manuals/carbtune/carbtune.htm

thanks for posting the supercharging article.. 2thumbsup well worth a read..

tjbw

25th November 2015, 09:53

thanks for posting the supercharging article.. 2thumbsup well worth a read..

Agreed, very interesting info on DKW development history, thanks TZ.

FastFred

25th November 2015, 12:22

At the GP, someone in the know told me there are those planning to get the 110 rule thing that was 105, now 110 changed back to 107. In Buckets, part of winning is building something special, and in this class I think attempts to limit that are wrong.

TZ you are not wrong about interferance, I have even heard talk of hp limits and dyno tests at the track. I guess the powers that be haven't heard that the 2T picked to win was 80cc and 22hp and the 2T that very nearly won was 70cc and 20hp well less than the 30hp of some specials. Leave the rules alone, hp is self limiting and after a certain point its more about riding skill.

Bert

25th November 2015, 15:03

TZ you are not wrong about interferance, I have even heard talk of hp limits and dyno tests at the track. I guess the powers that be haven't heard that the 2T picked to win was 80cc and 22hp and the 2T that very nearly won was 70cc and 20hp well less than the 30hp of some specials. Leave the rules alone, hp is self limiting and after a certain point its more about riding skill.

You might as well throw in minimum weight into the rumour mill as well...

TZ's comments above are concerning, last thing we want is constant rule changes for a class that has had minimum interference over the years. Personally I'm not really a fan of the 110cc rule, however if it enables more people to have more fun - then success..

Other rumours heard are splitting the classes (bikes with GP running gear) and even opening up a post/classic bucket class... TZ - I look forward to having a catchup and a brew at Tokoroa.

TZ350

25th November 2015, 15:37

You might as well throw in minimum weight into the rumour mill as well...

:laugh: ... yes that would be fair, kitted up Rider plus Bike = 220kgs min, do away with that light bike skinny kid advantage, level playing field and all that.

TALLIS

25th November 2015, 16:45

:laugh: ... yes that would be fair, kitted up Rider plus Bike = 220kgs min, do away with that light bike skinny kid advantage, level playing field and all that.

Now we are talking Rob! I think 190kg is fair (don't ask where I got that figure, and there's no hidden agenda) :msn-wink:

mr bucketracer

25th November 2015, 16:47

Now we are talking Rob! I think 190kg is fair (don't ask where I got that figure, and there's no hidden agenda) :msn-wink:no no no 200kg (-; that way we can still have kfc:lol:

jasonu

25th November 2015, 17:10

no no no 200kg (-; that way we can still have kfc:lol:

Fat cunt...

seymour14

25th November 2015, 17:26

Fat cunt...

Kentucky Fat Cunt? :rolleyes:

F5 Dave

25th November 2015, 18:20

You might as well throw in minimum weight into the rumour mill as well...

TZ's comments above are concerning, last thing we want is constant rule changes for a class that has had minimum interference over the years. Personally I'm not really a fan of the 110cc rule, however if it enables more people to have more fun - then success..

Other rumours heard are splitting the classes (bikes with GP running gear) and even opening up a post/classic bucket class... TZ - I look forward to having a catchup and a brew at Tokoroa.
I heard its all electric by 2017.

Pumba

25th November 2015, 20:10

First time in years that I have felt qualified to comment on the content of this thread.

:laugh: ... yes that would be fair, kitted up Rider plus Bike = 220kgs min, do away with that light bike skinny kid advantage, level playing field and all that.

Now you re talking

Now we are talking Rob! I think 190kg is fair (don't ask where I got that figure, and there's no hidden agenda) :msn-wink:

Fucking light weight racers

no no no 200kg (-; that way we can still have kfc:lol:

I do like KFC

I heard its all electric by 2017.

I have already started buying the extension cords

41juergen

26th November 2015, 00:28

Red line best power with the original main and 1.25 air correction jet. Blue line, 1.45 air correction plus bigger main jet.

Great to have such a clear result of what can be achieved by adjusting the air correction jet to bend the fueling curve.

TeeZee: I remember you did some tests on the dyno some (100 :not: ) pages back. Do you still know which page you showed the results? And do you had a chance to use a A/F meter at that time?
Juergen

seattle smitty

26th November 2015, 05:51

The history of Racing is littered with good ideas that have effectively been banned because others have been to lazy or technically challenged to keep up. In Buckets, part of winning is building something special, and in this class I think attempts to limit that are wrong.

Bravo!

Will you make a place in the class for this guy?:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLLs_KnT0Lk

TZ350

26th November 2015, 08:25

TeeZee: I remember you did some tests on the dyno some (100 :not: ) pages back. Do you still know which page you showed the results? And do you had a chance to use a A/F meter at that time?
Juergen

317534

No sorry, but under "Thread Tools" which is near the top right hand side of the page, you can "View Thread Images" and sort them into 70 per page. When you find an interesting image click on the N/A sign to see the post, there are more than 7,000 images.

When I was playing with EFI I did use a A/F meter but with a 2T there are traps as the A/F reading is seemingly rich when the trapping efficiency is not good, like when you are moving away from peak torque or well out of the power band.

The A/F meter accuracy seemed at its best when the rpm was at peak torque, every where else it indicated varying degrees of rich but was not. Frits put me on to this, the indicated richness was just air/fuel being blown through the exhaust port and lost down the pipe the remaining air/fuel that got trapped in the cylinder burnt correctly, all the air/fuel was of the correct strength for good combustion just some was not trapped and consequently lost and looked to the meter like the engine was running rich when in fact it was not.

Flettner

26th November 2015, 09:44

So, HCCI, how good is that. I've just been reading up on the ignition process (google it) and it turns out we have been heading down the wrong track with spark plugs all this time:laugh: HCCI process is best at everything ...... accept being able to control it under all engine conditions:no:
There seems to have been a lot of research on this process and only Ryger appear to have cracked it, and they still run a spark plug. Imagine having a non direct injection engine running with no spark plug, model engines do it with compression adjustment to get the timing crack on. Be it at only constant RPM. Thoughts anyone?

MotleyCrue

26th November 2015, 10:19

So, HCCI, how good is that. I've just been reading up on the ignition process (google it) and it turns out we have been heading down the wrong track with spark plugs all this time:laugh: HCCI process is best at everything ...... accept being able to control it under all engine conditions:no:
There seems to have been a lot of research on this process and only Ryger appear to have cracked it, and they still run a spark plug. Imagine having a non direct injection engine running with no spark plug, model engines do it with compression adjustment to get the timing crack on. Be it at only constant RPM. Thoughts anyone?

From what I have read HCCI has been the next big thing for 30+ years. Lot of controls needed making the usual complexity of a modern ECU 4 stroke OEM auto engine even more complex than it already is, and yet it still only works at part load. HCCI might work in the Ryger at just the right conditions, but working under all conditions without extensive ECU controls and such, only in dreams I think.

Haufen

26th November 2015, 10:49

So, HCCI, how good is that. I've just been reading up on the ignition process (google it) and it turns out we have been heading down the wrong track with spark plugs all this time:laugh: HCCI process is best at everything ...... accept being able to control it under all engine conditions:no:
There seems to have been a lot of research on this process and only Ryger appear to have cracked it, and they still run a spark plug. Imagine having a non direct injection engine running with no spark plug, model engines do it with compression adjustment to get the timing crack on. Be it at only constant RPM. Thoughts anyone?

It is highly unlikely that the Ryger is running full load HCCI. Remember, Honda could not do it on a two-stroke, and the Car companies can not either. HCCI is a part load thing, and usually utilized to improve fuel consumption in the lower part load area. By the way, although many car manufacturers have road tested HCCI in prototypes on the test bench and on the road, there is not a single car on the market being sold which uses HCCI, afaik.

If the Ryger should be working without a spark plug at some high rpm / high load areas, then it is much more likely preignition than HCCI. If it needs a smaller radiator despite more than usual power, then it can still have a more efficient burn compared to conventional engines, but that efficient burn won't be what is usually called HCCI or CAI.

Frits Overmars

26th November 2015, 10:54

So, HCCI, how good is that. I've just been reading up on the ignition process...Do you think it will be a good idea to dump the same HCCI information overload on the rest of the gang here Neil? Oh well, here y'all go. Bring your own aspirin.

EDIT: after trying to upload three times I discovered that the maximum permitted file size for ZIP-files is 2MB. My HCCI.ZIP is 22,2 MB....

Frits Overmars

26th November 2015, 10:57

It is highly unlikely that the Ryger is running full load HCCI. Remember, Honda could not do it on a two-stroke.Compared to the Ryger engine, full load HCCI is not the only thing Honda could not do on a two-stroke :devil2:.

tjbw

26th November 2015, 11:00

So, HCCI, how good is that. I've just been reading up on the ignition process (google it) and it turns out we have been heading down the wrong track with spark plugs all this time:laugh: HCCI process is best at everything ...... accept being able to control it under all engine conditions:no:
There seems to have been a lot of research on this process and only Ryger appear to have cracked it, and they still run a spark plug. Imagine having a non direct injection engine running with no spark plug, model engines do it with compression adjustment to get the timing crack on. Be it at only constant RPM. Thoughts anyone?

Honda had success with EXP-2 in the 1995 Paris-Dakar rally, but then what?

"In 1995 Honda re-entered the Paris-Dakar with a bang. The EXP-2 was a radically new and different motorbike, equipped with a revolutionary 400ccm two-stroke engine. After two weeks of racing the african dessert Jean Brucy finished 5th overall and first place in the under-500ccm class."

http://www.honda-museum.com/honda-exp-2/

I'm very much looking forward to the Ryger debut.

tjbw

26th November 2015, 11:05

Do you think it will be a good idea to dump the same HCCI information overload on the rest of the gang here Neil? Oh well, here y'all go. Bring your own aspirin.

EDIT: after trying to upload three times I discovered that the maximum permitted file size for ZIP-files is 2MB. My HCCI.ZIP is 22,2 MB....

Frits, could you store the large file using Dropbox, or a similar free cloud service, and share the link?

Frits Overmars

26th November 2015, 11:07

Honda had success with EXP-2 in the 1995 Paris-Dakar rally, but then what?Then the management overruled the engineers. "Honda is a four-stroke company" ...

Haufen

26th November 2015, 11:30

Compared to the Ryger engine, full load HCCI is not the only thing Honda could not do on a two-stroke :devil2:.

And I like that fact just as much as you do :D But I do give them credit for at least using HCCI in a racing two-stroke engine. Nobody else does. Or am I wrong?

MotleyCrue

26th November 2015, 15:43

How does anyone know it is HCCI combustion in the Ryger engine? That is what is it about the engine that makes anyone conclusively conclude it is HCCI? The people I have read about working on HCCI seem to have lots of $$$$$$$ and instrumentation up to the ying yang so they can even play with it.

There are some bigger 2 stroke race engines that win races and once they are going for a bit the spark plug is not needed, that is shutting off the ignition at full throttle won't do anything but no one is indicating it to be HCCI.

Lightbulb

26th November 2015, 16:58

HCCI is what makes the Ryger so different, and being able to do what it does. The puzzle is coming together.
HCCI is the only way to have power and economy . It will be tied up with the air fuel waiting out 1 cycle before it gets to the
transfer passages. I believe this is the control and gives the fuel air time to get it stuff sorted out.
Neil

ken seeber

26th November 2015, 17:13

I think I have seen HCCI in action. In karts, which were all once direct drive (no clutch), sometime a guy might spin, crash or whatever and the chain breaks. Even if the throttle may be shut, the engine revs to infinity (at least 30,001 rpm). Then the man gets out and pulls the spark plug cap off and it keeps running and we're up to 30,002 now. He then, after recovering from the HV Taser electric shock, covers the inlet tubes to the airbox. Then the engine will slow and stop. Certainly a light load, high rpm and lean condition which HCCI (ATAC ?) seems to like.

MotleyCrue

26th November 2015, 17:19

HCCI is what makes the Ryger so different, and being able to do what it does. The puzzle is coming together.
HCCI is the only way to have power and economy . It will be tied up with the air fuel waiting out 1 cycle before it gets to the
transfer passages. I believe this is the control and gives the fuel air time to get it stuff sorted out.
Neil

HCCI would make any engine different but how does anyone know it is HCCI happening? Air fuel waiting out 1 cycle or more happens in lots of engines and lots if not almost all engines have exhaust contamination of the air fuel, some a small amount and some a large amount and the rest somewhere in between. I would think that HCCI doesnt happen by time and chance but has to be forced to happen and then more greatly forced to be kept under control and it seems documented literature would agree.

If the Ryger engine has solved the HCCI riddle then that is a bigger achievement than a clean 2 stroke or a 70 HP 125.

jonny quest

26th November 2015, 19:18

Maybe Wobbly or Frits may know the answer to this. ...

Curious if any of the V4 500cc 2 strokes ever tried 2 into 1 pipes? Would have improved bottom end and midrange with very minimal peak loss. Plus the sound a 2 into 1 makes... incredible!

I built one for my RZ350 back in the day.