ESE's works engine tuner

[Frits Overmars]

A top fuelie running 90% nitromethane 10% methanol will run over 60deg BTDC. Change the fuel and the ground rules change dramatically.I think the 60° bTDC has more to do with the ridiculous piston speeds and the even more ridiculous combustion chamber shapes found in those two-valve top fuelers.
It's more or less the same in Formula 1. There the piston speeds are a bit less ridiculous (25 m/s at 19,000 rpm with a 39,75 mm stroke) but the combustion chamber shape of an F-1 four-valver is not much better than that of a two-valve top-fueler because of the F-1's 98 mm bore and the much higher compression ratio of a petrol engine compared to a nitro-burner. An F-1 combustion chamber at TDC looks like someone dropped a pancake. About the only point in the F-1's favour is the central spark plug. Still they have to run over 50° ignition advance on fast-burning petrol.
Now let's return to two-strokes.

[Ocean1]

Now let's return to two-strokes.

Pistons can outrun flamefront on two strokes?

[Frits Overmars]

Pistons can outrun flamefront on two strokes?That huge ignition advance may have led you to believe that the piston would otherwise run away from the flame. No, the flame will always catch up with the piston. But with high piston speeds, adversely shaped combustion volumes, insufficient squish, tumble or swirl, or less than optimal mixtures, combustion may proceed so slowly that the pressure rise comes too late for thermal efficiency. Roughly (very roughly) speaking, a quarter of the mixture should be burning by TDC.

[Ocean1]

No

O well, the message should be at least 10 characters long.
So: no, they can't.

Interesting to consider the implications a different fuel might entail for two strokes though.

So, lower rev's must make a two stroke less effective, but 7 or 8 times the fuel charge per intake stroke is a pretty good compensation...

Still, not allowed, so little point spending much time on it.

[Frits Overmars]

Lower revs make an engine less powerful, not less effective (the BMEP of a two-stroke Aprilia RSA125 is nearly 17; no naturally-aspirated petrol-burning four-stroke can match that, no matter how high they rev).

[husaberg]

Think of the two cdi units as battery's that supply "power" to the ignition coil.
Run two batteries in parrallel and the voltage stays the same - but potentially twice the current is available.
As the coil resistance ( plus inductive reactance) stays the same, this doubled current creates potentially more than twice the power in the coil.
as power = Watts = Current squared * R, the watts are more than doubled.
This translates differently in practice.
On a scope the initiall arc -over voltage and time is the same, but the actual burn time ( or the period where the stored energy in the capacitors bleeds down ) by the spark
ionising the molecules in the gap,increases around 3 fold.
The other method of increasing the spark energy is to increase the inductive reactance of the coil, this is why the RGV/Aprilia low primary resistance coils work well with a DC - CDI.
Even better is a huge Crane coil that is used in Nascar CDI systems.
A twin Ignitech driving one of these pulls 6A continuous and will destroy the ground electrode of a "normal" plug.


I have always wondered about those lovely looking Coil packs from the Gsxr Srad and others.

I see they do have low primary resistance but are they up to it?
I realise that bigger is often better when it comes to coil performance as has been alluded to before.
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/06-2006-07-2007-Suzuki-GSXR-600-Spark-Plug-Cap-IGNITION-COIL-Coils-33410-29G00-/00/$(KGrHqYOKpcE35skWVbZBO!6jJCYmg~~_12.JPG
from srad600 manual
primary 0.07-0.11 ohm
secondary 4.5-6.9 KOhm
peak over 100

coils/caps weigh in at 3.5 ounces.
?????????????????????\

I seem to remember quite a few cars having them also Falcons etc

[Frits Overmars]

I have always wondered about those lovely looking Coil packs from the Gsxr Srad and others. I seem to remember quite a few cars having themI seem to remember my car (Suzuki Baleno 1.8) has them too. In fact I remember damn well how much they cost; I had to replace three of them because they died through overheating in those deep pits between the camshafts.
Once they have been too hot you can still run the engine under light load. But when you give it full throttle the spark has to overcome an increased resistance which somehow results in very late ignition. The engine then reacts by backfiring the airbox (filled with LPG) to smittereens.

[wobbly]

In the testing I did the twin CDI into the Crane had 40Kv arc-over voltage that dropped to 15Kv and discharged for 180Ms,this was over 3* the discharge period of a single cdi driving
a stock RGV coil.
The stock setup pulled 0.6A at 10,000, the twin setup driving the Crane pulled 10* that.
I dont think that this mega system for a single would be any advantage under normal conditions, but for the VERY rich combustion process used in a racing 2T on Methanol it certainly gets that
non optimal mixture fired up.
The twin fire idea does work well on a Honda RS125, using the stock coil,but I havnt tested a RGV coil back to back yet.

Re ignition advance and burn duration - the theoretical consideration or advantages or not of this stuff doesnt matter a shit.
It all comes down to at what point you fire the spark, and thus how much of the combustion energy ( a fixed amount ) is used to
create heat that increases the pressure on the piston, or, if a larger amount of this heat is discharged into the pipe.
The former scenario gives peak pressure close to TDC, the later has the peak well past TDC but dumps alot of heat into the exhaust, increasing the wave speed and thus overev power.

As a matter of interest EngMod throws up combustion burn periods varying from 30 to 90* of crank rotation.

Re spacing apart the twin firing points - i asked Ignitech about this, and technically it can be achieved by the newer processor to initiate a gap of say 100MSec between the firing points.
But they suggested that using the two capacitors and a coil with lots of Inductive Reactance would achieve the same effect.
They were right, as using these two elements of the system both increases the burn duration in the gap.
I had to use expensive spiral wound Magnecor wire to kill the RF of the plug lead, as the system killed the 5K resistor in the NGK racing caps ( over $100 each ) instantly, so I think I will use this
setup from now on, and use normal caps on the plug for all racing ignitions I build..

[dinamik2t]

I used to have some KV85 Magnecor wire on a coil once.. A little bit fat to screw on a 7mm-wire-hole coil.

265142265143265144265145

Wob, what instruments do you use to measure the arc voltage and duration??
About the resistor, the problem lies to the cap only? NGK racing plugs, having 5kΩ along with a 0Ω cap, would be safe?
And finally, the cap resistor is removable?

[husaberg]

While we are talking plug caps i would not recommend anyone use these style NGK plug caps
They have a wire clip to attach to the plug and they always seem (For me anyway)to wear a notch in the plug resulting in a loose plug misfire.
http://www.gsparkplug.com/shop/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/t/b/tb05em.jpg

I seem to remember my car (Suzuki Baleno 1.8) has them too. In fact I remember damn well how much they cost; I had to replace three of them because they died through overheating in those deep pits between the camshafts.
Once they have been too hot you can still run the engine under light load. But when you give it full throttle the spark has to overcome an increased resistance which somehow results in very late ignition. The engine then reacts by backfiring the airbox (filled with LPG) to smittereens.
Suzuki i would have thought this would have been more in keeping. Or a Saab two stroke?:innocent:
http://librapix.com.s3.amazonaws.com/classic-and-vintage-cars.com/147.jpg
I thought for a minute he was letting the misses drive then i realised a lot of the Continental types still drive on the wrong side of the road:shifty:
The plug coils are quite cheap on EGay.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=265146&d=1339889613
So has anyone tried one?

[wobbly]

I used NGK R7376-10 racing plugs ( I use them in everything ) as these are same plug as is sold in the shorty version for
GP bikes with special cap for silly money.
But these plugs are normal body size,and have the Iridium electrode and Platinum small ground wire for around 40usd.
The NGK racing plugs have special resistors in them.
The 5K plug with no cap resistance and Magnecor 10mm wire works a treat with no RF problems for the Ignitech.

I use Ditex ignition test gear into my laptop.
Here is a video of the twinfire with Crane PS92N enormous cdi coil, on my test rig with CR125 stator/rotor/reg/cap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA6kjjEMiaw&feature=plcp

[husaberg]

I used NGK R7376-10 racing plugs ( I use them in everything ) as these are same plug as is sold in the shorty version for
GP bikes with special cap for silly money.
But these plugs are normal body size,and have the Iridium electrode and Platinum small ground wire for around 40usd.
The NGK racing plugs have special resistors in them.
The 5K plug with no cap resistance and Magnecor 10mm wire works a treat with no RF problems for the Ignitech.

I use Ditex ignition test gear into my laptop.
Here is a video of the twinfire with Crane PS92N enormous cdi coil, on my test rig with CR125 stator/rotor/reg/cap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA6kjjEMiaw&feature=plcp
Is that a vacumn cleaner rheostat running the rig.

You had spoken of it before looks cool.

[wobbly]

Its a vacuum cleaner motor with a light dimmer rheostat and reverse switch for speed and direction.
Small toothed belt drive so I can use a big degree wheel on one end of the shaft and the ignition on the other to check timing curves..
Shaft slides in and out on eccentric lock bearings to position the rotor correctly.
I have seen nicer rigs using spindle moulder motors, but the old Hoover motors are free.

[husaberg]

I had never noticed this circuit before (WELL IF I HAD I HAD FORGOTTEN ABOUT IT)

http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110548/article.html?popularArticle
http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-eLabtronics-Voltage-Switch-Part-2/A_110549/article.html

http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/featurepics/110548.jpg

The eLabtronics Voltage Switch is a brilliant device - no matter what the car or its modifications.
And why is it brilliant? Because it allows you to trigger devices using any car sensor that outputs a voltage. Those sensors include airflow meters, throttle position sensors, fuel level senders, temperature senders (both for the dashboard gauge and ECU), oil pressure senders and a whole lot more.
Don’t see any uses?
Well, whatever variable is already being sensed (whether that’s engine load, engine temperature, oil pressure, etc) can now be used to additionally switch something on and off.

http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-eLabtronics-Performance-Modules/A_110570/article.html



Last week in The eLabtronics Pulser, Part 1 we introduced the eLabtronics Pulser, a cheap and easy to connect pre-built electronic module that allows you to pulse lights, horns, pumps, etc. It’s ideal for alarm applications, flashing high-powered LEDs and a host of applications.
Briefly mentioned in that introductory story was that while the Pulser is normally switched on by connecting its Input terminal to power, the Pulser actually turns on when the voltage on the Input rises above about 2.6V.
This seemingly minor point is very important, as it allows the Pulser to be automatically triggered by changing light levels, temperature or even the output of an engine management sensor.
For example, the Pulser can be configured to automatically start flashing lights when it gets dark, pulse an intercooler water spray (eg for 5 seconds every 15 seconds) when the intercooler gets hot or engine load is high, or even pulse a warning lamp when the outside temp drops to near zero (eg to warn of black ice on the road).
It can even be triggered when the difference between two temperatures exceeds a certain amount!
http://http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-eLabtronics-Pulser-Part-1/A_110512/article.html (http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-eLabtronics-Pulser-Part-1/A_110512/article.html)
http://http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-eLabtronics-Pulser-Part-2/A_110547/article.html (http://autospeed.com/cms/title_The-eLabtronics-Pulser-Part-2/A_110547/article.html)

[TZ350]

Re ignition advance and burn duration - the theoretical consideration or advantages or not of this stuff doesnt matter a shit. It all comes down to at what point you fire the spark.

Thanks Wob for the informative reply.

My interest was, a more reliable fire starter.

My thinking was that if I was going to connect both channels of the Ignitech to a single coil, then I was interested in seeing what arrangements were possible, like staggering the discharge events.

And would that increase the statistical likelihood of getting the fire properly alight in the combustion chamber at the time required and do so for each and every engine revolution.

[bucketracer]

Measuring the primary DC resistance of a coil does not tell you much about its inductance, burn time or the energy release.

A way of evaluating different coils is by measuring their stored energy.

http://www.dtec.net.au/Ignition Coil Energy Testing.htm

Ignition coil stored energy is measured in milli Joules (mJ) and is relatively easy to measure with some simple DIY equipment. Coil energy encompasses time, current and voltage characteristics. Stored energy is a very important factor, it relates directly to spark intensity and burn time. Very few people seem to realise how simple it is to measure and what an important aspect of an optimum ignition system it is, electrical engineers dealing with automotive ignition systems certainly do!

265193

Fire the coil into the Zener string and measure the voltage across the shunt resistor on an oscilloscope. Determine the spark current and duration based on the shunt resistor value and use the following calculation.

Calculate energy with:
½ x duration x (spark current at start + spark current at end {which is basically 0}) x Zener voltage

eg. 0.5 x 0.01s x 0.02 A x 792v
= 0.0792 Joules
= 79.2 mJ


This tester does not measure coil voltage output of the coil, it is for measuring stored energy which, as stated, is extremely valuable information.

...........

My guess is that measuring stored energy is for normal points type ignition coils and that you could use this setup for measuring energy released in a coil by a CDI to evaluate different coils and wiring/phasing arrangements for your IgniTech.

[wobbly]

Thats a pretty cool test device for coil performance.
I was simply looking at the discharge time and the current drawn by the ECU - that is nuch better.

Off subject a bit but shit I love CNC bits - here is a rear caliper mount for the 400 F3 done directly off the solid model.

[Brian d marge]

Off subject a bit but shit I love CNC bits - here is a rear caliper mount for the 400 F3 done directly off the solid model.

ok warm fuzzy feeling ..keep talking , who , how , how much ......etc

Stephen

all ears

[speedpro]

Thats a pretty cool test device for coil performance.
I was simply looking at the discharge time and the current drawn by the ECU - that is nuch better.

Off subject a bit but shit I love CNC bits - here is a rear caliper mount for the 400 F3 done directly off the solid model.

Nice.

Of course if it was going to be used on a bucket you'd have to drill a few holes in it

[wobbly]

Well the flat centre diaphram area is only 1mm thick,so no holes needed.
I did the SolidWorks model and emailed it to a tame cnc man that bunged it thru Gibs to create a tool path - he wants several Ignitecs for gyro engines.

[twotempi]

Wobbly - Your CNC'ed bracket is for a 400 F3 what ?? Ducati ??

[Brian d marge]

Well the flat centre diaphram area is only 1mm thick,so no holes needed.
I did the SolidWorks model and emailed it to a tame cnc man that bunged it thru Gibs to create a tool path - he wants several Ignitecs for gyro engines.

Can you translate?
Stephen

[speedpro]

Well the flat centre diaphram area is only 1mm thick,so no holes needed.
I did the SolidWorks model and emailed it to a tame cnc man that bunged it thru Gibs to create a tool path - he wants several Ignitecs for gyro engines.

That'd be Mr Neil Hintz??

[husaberg]

Why i have i never heard him being mentioned before? Is it just me?

http://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.kreidler.nl/artikelen/Jorg-moller/2.jpg&sa=X&ei=DhnfT5r8F82YiAe0ubSnCg&ved=0CAwQ8wc&usg=AFQjCNGDlDRhCNVrnOm4ho5pFsTH3cyvnQhttp://www.google.co.nz/url?source=imglanding&ct=img&q=http://www.kreidler.nl/artikelen/afscheid-jandevries/pic02.jpg&sa=X&ei=mRnfT-3QJsWSiAf31bisCg&ved=0CAwQ8wc4Fg&usg=AFQjCNG53Ckj1hqbsBS-gy1glkkQvoDp9Q

[Frits Overmars]

Why i have i never heard him being mentioned before? Is it just me?Yes :p. But in your defence you could say that his name was misspelled in the article. It's not Jorg Moller but Jörg Möller.

[F5 Dave]

Glenn, you need to splash out some money & buy Kevin Camerons TDC books. Whatever one might think of his take on technical matters, when you bear in mind when they were written, I think they were very good, but more so interesting & entertaining to read. He visited a few small manufacturers back in the day & spoke with people like Jorg.

[wobbly]

The 400 F3 is one of 3 I am building for the new Superlight class here.
Up to 400cc multicylinder two strokes are allowed with road based cases ( to stop full house 250GP bike engines).
Mine are RS250 Aprilia Cup chassis with bored/stroked RZ350 Banshee cases as these are still available new.
As in the video I posted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ9EUBRHQ3U
They use a 58mm stroked cank - CPI Cheetah cylinder at 66mm bore with special Wossner single ring Blaster pistons,servo powervalve,39mm FCR carbs,Ignitech,straight cut
primarys,Hinson heavy clutch,Nova close ratio box.
Chassis has Mupo or Ohlins inserts in HRC RS250 NXA forks with Brembos - one has 255 discs with 1098 Ducati radials on CNC adapters made by the same method as above.etc.

What part of the post needs translation??

[twotempi]

Hi Wobbly,

Has MNZ changed the rules for F3 ??

Want to see your 400 F3 two-strokes on the track against the SV650's - should be interesting.

Who are riding them ??

cheers

[2T Institute]

Yes :p. But in your defence you could say that his name was misspelled in the article. It's not Jorg Moller but Jörg Möller.

No umlaut's down here Frits, they all fall off when you cross the equator. :lol: Speaking of fuel do you have the United `100 octane fuel over there?

[wobbly]

Yes the F3 class was changed to become Superlight.
There has been an ongoing argument re the rules as someone changed purposely one word, and it bent the whole intent of the class.
This would have meant having potentially 100Hp in a RZ chassis - yea sure thats safe.
The idea was to allow the use of any chassis available, but restrict engines to those based on a road bike.
This rule has finally been edited, but in the end it states that the Commissioner has the final say on elegiblity, and he is the one that has been pushing to reword the document as it was originally intended.
The 400 F3 with around 100Hp and 100Kg gives any SV650 no chance in hell - death to the diesels.

[dinamik2t]

Wob, I wonder, could you make an estimation of how the resources, that allow (or forbid) someone to build a top RPM/HP-14barBMEP two stroke in every race category, split in a total of 100%?
I take it the major ones are know-how, materials-technics, durability-service_cost, general build_cost (parts etc).

I read again and I know am not being very clear about my question. You talk about a 400cc engine with 'only' 100hp. Since you have the know-how to build the 400cc with, say, 140hp, which are the limiting factors?
E.g. 20% lack of material/construction technics quality, 30% enormous parts costs, 40% high wear rate and so on.
How this would be correlated with "normal" race teams around the world (roadrace, dragster, karting etc)?

[F5 Dave]

I'll take a punt at that. Starting from road orientated cases means a twin cylinder with large bore 200cc cylinders with reedblocks on the barrels. Within that framework and the requirement to build a flexible engine to race on tight NZ tracks at a price a privateer can afford, (read readily available aftermarket produced parts). - heck this will be ample anyway & I'm looking forward to seeing them in action:banana:

[wobbly]

The 400cc twin is a good example to use.
This engine is RZ/Banshee based, that started life initially as the R5 - 250.
Thus it has 102mm bore centres that severely limits power via transfer duct shape and size.
The Cheetah version of the cylinder allows use of the powervalve, so that enabled much wilder tuning to be used without killing the mid range performance.
So I have designed every part of the engine to make an achievable 12 Bar BMEP at 11,000.
The BMEP is limited by the case layout, the rpm by the stroke length and the piston weight ( though very light for a 66mm bore ).
This potentially equates to around 120 Hp crank,and needs every trick I know to make happen within the constraints above.
I managed to squeeze in fat 132mm pipes,that were developed for the fastest 500 quad up Pikes last year,so again its knowledge that will be the winning factor in this case.
Money doesnt enter this equation, as it simply isnt possible to spend more to go faster, as nothing else is better nor available.
The bikes will have the best tyres available,plus Marchesini wheels.The best SV650 is using BST carbons, but is still a heavy pig in comparison.
With unlimited budget you could go CNC cases, but then they would not be road based, and illegal.
Unlike Buckets here, where if someone had the no brains/ton of money syndrome, I could CAD up a cylinder and have 40 Hp and a 4000 rpm band from a 100cc watercooled - easy.

PS - the Honda 500V factory twin made 140 crank at 10500, this is 12 Bar also - this bmep limited by the revs with the long 68 stroke, so again the power is regulated by the setups limitations.

[twotempi]

Geez - You almost feel sorry for the four-strokes. Especially guys who have built 450cc R6's.

On the other hand maybe not.

[TZ350]

Unlike Buckets here, where if someone had the no brains/ton of money syndrome,

Hmmm I am more familiar with having the no brains and no money syndrome myself.

265268

Using the latest of tool technology, a carpenters hammer and butter knife to work my magic I am getting 34 or there abouts at the crank.

265267

In porting the cylinder the bridge between the secondary transfer and boost port had been made to narrow and the end of the ring was catching in the port window. So now the ring locating peg needs shifting so the ring gap can run up the boost port. I will be carefull to leave this area wider on future cylinders.

265266

The first trick is to remove the old peg, I did this by filling it down. I got a very thin file and ground the teeth from the sides of it and made a slight radius along the sides so the teeth on the edge of the file would not damage the sides of the ring land.

Its important to take care of the ring land because the lower face and the underside of the ring are critical sealing surfaces.

265271

A piece of 1.5mm SS welding wire was hammered in place and secured in the early TZ style. With the sharp end of the pin bent down in the hole the pin is quite secure and unlikely to come out.

265269

So far the glue has stayed in place.

265270

The extra holes on the sides are for oiling the cylinder area between the transfers and exhaust port.

[husaberg]

Unlike Buckets here, where if someone had the no brains/ton of money syndrome, I could CAD up a cylinder and have 40 Hp and a 4000 rpm band from a 100cc watercooled - easy.


Hey i have no brain. wheres my 40hp:psst:
Can't we do that with Honda cylinders:rolleyes:
Nah happy with 25. That was Neils Magic number wasn't it.:bleh:


I was kind of hoping someone fluent in Eurospeak could tall us a Bit about Jorg. (don't know how to do the annotation for the pronunciation sorry Frits)

All the stuff i could find about him was in Eurospeak scans.


Glenn, you need to splash out some money & buy Kevin Camerons TDC books. Whatever one might think of his take on technical matters, when you bear in mind when they were written, I think they were very good, but more so interesting & entertaining to read. He visited a few small manufacturers back in the day & spoke with people like Jorg.

Scan a bit for us would you. I enjoy his style not unlike ...kind of a Dave Barry style i guess.

[ESE BULL SHIT]

:bleh::bleh::bleh:
The 400cc twin is a good example to use.
This engine is RZ/Banshee based, that started life initially as the R5 - 250.
Thus it has 102mm bore centres that severely limits power via transfer duct shape and size.
The Cheetah version of the cylinder allows use of the powervalve, so that enabled much wilder tuning to be used without killing the mid range performance.
So I have designed every part of the engine to make an achievable 12 Bar BMEP at 11,000.
The BMEP is limited by the case layout, the rpm by the stroke length and the piston weight ( though very light for a 66mm bore ).
This potentially equates to around 120 Hp crank,and needs every trick I know to make happen within the constraints above.
I managed to squeeze in fat 132mm pipes,that were developed for the fastest 500 quad up Pikes last year,so again its knowledge that will be the winning factor in this case.
Money doesnt enter this equation, as it simply isnt possible to spend more to go faster, as nothing else is better nor available.
The bikes will have the best tyres available,plus Marchesini wheels.The best SV650 is using BST carbons, but is still a heavy pig in comparison.
With unlimited budget you could go CNC cases, but then they would not be road based, and illegal.
Unlike Buckets here, where if someone had the no brains/ton of money syndrome, I could CAD up a cylinder and have 40 Hp and a 4000 rpm band from a 100cc watercooled - easy.

PS - the Honda 500V factory twin made 140 crank at 10500, this is 12 Bar also - this bmep limited by the revs with the long 68 stroke, so again the power is regulated by the setups limitations.

[TZ350]

:scratch: ......... what???? where did that come from!!

[Buddha#81]

:scratch: ......... what???? where did that come from!!

from the gutters of KB......looks like ESE and Wob has a fan......:sleep:

[speedpro]

"ESE BULL SHIT has not made any friends yet".

Hard to believe

[Buddha#81]

"ESE BULL SHIT has not made any friends yet".

Hard to believe

may be some of us diesel boys mite warm to him?

[bucketracer]

may be some of us diesel boys mite warm to him?

I heard a roomer that TeeZee and Gigglebutton have been fiddling with Giggles FXR and the two of them are hatching plans.

[Buddha#81]

I heard a roomer that TeeZee and Gigglebutton have been fiddling with Giggles FXR and the two of them are hatching plans.

what does the rest of the ESE team think of that.....wont he be riddled with Diesel pox......I gather he can always come back out of the closet to the world of 2t gayness?

[husaberg]

Gee he sure seems to be legit.
otherwise he wouldn't have included so much details about himself its not like he is trying to hide is identity is it.
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR3aUD9eyyodBF9Xu8qCjoU-4pAX5y_ff8S4HFyos0UhpncTVpyqdxuc4r0http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSH1XZKE0sIWMO5YpAdPyCPSn3EAvXzA-sgPHvR55v27T1d0pM0Ig9vadKMhttp://files.sharenator.com/there_are_no_girls_on_the_internet_RE_ASK_A_GIRL-s450x380-114689.jpghttp://www.humor-day.com/funny_pictures/832.jpg

[Yow Ling]

His profile said he is a girl, we need more chicks in buckets

[bucketracer]

what does the rest of the ESE team think of that.....wont he be riddled with Diesel pox......

He and Giggles were dynoing a FXR with carb, pipe and std engine the other day and found 18hp and 6k spread all from a good pipe and a bit of inlet tweeking.

I think TZ has been looking at Riches efforts and figures they could try for something competitive in 4-stroke terms too, just for shits and giggles mind as 4-strokes arnt real race bikes.

[gav]

He and Giggles were dynoing a FXR with carb, pipe and std engine the other day and found 18hp and 6k spread all from a good pipe and a bit of inlet tweeking.

I think TZ has been looking at Riches efforts and figures they could try for something competitive in 4-stroke terms too, just for shits and giggles mind as 4-strokes arnt real race bikes.

You watched the last Moto3 race? Awesome !!
Actually I was just thinking how cool it would be if someone started a "Masters" race class for 500GP bikes, be pretty cool to see King Kenny, Jnr Ken, Wayne Gardner, Kevin Schwantz, Randy Mamola etc out on "proper" race bikes. Hell, next year they could even let that Casey Stoner whippersnapper have a go seeing as he will be retired too ... :headbang:

As for the bikes .... just give a Chinese company a 2000 Honda NSR500 to copy, and give us 20 or so of those once finished.

[cotswold]

[QUOTE=bucketracer;1130343325]He and Giggles were dynoing a FXR with carb, pipe and std engine the other day and found 18hp and 6k spread all from a good pipe and a bit of inlet tweeking.

It must be working as it came past me down the straight so fast I thought mine was seizing:(

[ief]

Using the latest of tool technology, a carpenters hammer and butter knife to work my magic I am getting 34 or there abouts at the crank.

+


It must be working as it came past me down the straight so fast I thought mine was seizing

You guys crack me up and make my day! :lol:

Keep em comming...

[wobbly]

As I am obviously full of shit and know nothing about twostrokes, I will refrain from helping people on this site with posts, until ESE BULLSHIT
contributes something of tangible use.

[Farmaken]

That would just be sucky for all of us wobbly :(

[dinamik2t]

until ESE BULLSHIT contributes something of tangible use.

Yeah, like a government signed paper of his skills in smartassness..

p.s. Wob -and Frits and anyone else contributiing-, I hope the guys in your countries can thank you enough, for all of us being away and unable to offer something in return! Never mind anyone who judges your knowledge. You are clever people and you know better than any of us how far it (the knowledge :P) extends to.

[SS90]

Hey i have no brain:rolleyes:
Nah happy with 25.
Why not be happy with a 25PS stroker? (since you currently have 0PS by all accounts, but that may have changed for all I know)
The current stable of dominant bikes all have that, or considerably less, so why not take that approach and look at the advantages of a rideable,torquey, smooth engine that at least finishes races (or should that be starts races?)
Single exhaust ports are a hell of a handicap, as are wide ratio commuter 5 speed boxes, but such set ups offer advantages that sportier layouts don't.

My opinion is that a 28PS 25 NM air cooled two stroke 125 would currently clean up in NZ buckets.
It might even get some points just by virtue of finishing a race. (or starting)

But a liquid cooled stroker with an ü port(my keyboad has umlouts,) and 6 speed close ratio box???? Well that is a different story. Then you will see something worth writing about.

[Frits Overmars]

As I am obviously full of shit and know nothing about twostrokes, I will refrain from helping people on this site with posts, until ESE BULLSHIT contributes something of tangible use.That would hurt everybody on the forum except that bullshit-character, Wob. If a mad dog starts barking at you, you don't bark back at it, do you?
I have a better idea. Let's get drunk and just ignore the guy :drinknsin.

[twotempi]

All those in favour of Wobbly continue to contribute to this forum please say "Yes".



YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



The "YES's" have it. :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[dinamik2t]

Ναι!!

I give 10 Yes's for Wob!

Who gives more??

10 goes once....

10 goes twice...

[F5 Dave]

I'm thinking Hmm, - Who wouldn't like a RZ400 Superlight doing well?

Lets say an SV650 racer. . . . Well I could make a guess, but I'd probably be wrong & I don't know. Edit: Sorry this could be read to give the impression I know who it is & I do not.


Anyway there is a difference between stirring shit & throwing it.

[jasonu]

I'm thinking Hmm, - Who wouldn't like a RZ400 Superlight doing well?

Lets say an SV650 racer. Perhaps even one at the top of the field. Location Fielding or thereabouts. . . Well I could make a guess, but I'd probably be wrong & I don't know.

Any way there is a difference between stirring shit & throwing it.

Spill the beans Dave!!!:jerry:

[crazy man]

seen that l helped build that so could SV650 that now is called a (heavy pig in comparison) that is prombly the worlds lightest sv well l'm pissed at what was said as well if only you:mad: new how much work went into that bike!!

[F5 Dave]

Spill the beans Dave!!!:jerry:
No no, not even worthy of a random thought, in fact I'll modify my comment as it is probably too off base & I don't want to give the impresion that someone or other was this ESEBS chap. It really could be anyone.

I will say that I think it is rank to create a profile of that name though. ESE is a business & no way involved - why slate their name in the process?

[Brian d marge]

Cad up a casting mold , then up load it to shapways , this will tell you how much it will cost to print ( if you are canny with the desigh , it will cost less , eg some places can be hollow and filled in later )

Im sure you can come up with something decent for a reasonable price ...

Stephen

[husaberg]

I think the post should just be ignored as it contribute nothing.
I don't care who posted because its not worth my time.:tugger:
It's real easy to slag people off on the net when you are anonymous. Plus gutless
Wob is worth my time and hes worth the money i am paying him. Nuth said.
Back to two strokes.

[Yow Ling]

I think the post should just be ignored as it contribute nothing.
I don't care who posted because its not worth my time.:tugger:
It's real easy to slag people off on the net when you are anonymous. Plus gutless
Wob is worth my time and hes worth the money i am paying him. Nuth said.
Back to two strokes.

the Internet is not as anonomus as people think, there is no mystery man or girl

[bucketracer]

My opinion is that a 28PS 25 NM air cooled two stroke 125 would currently clean up in NZ buckets.

You remember our friendly yardstick BMEP, so tell me, have you done the math to check that a 28PS 25NM 125cc air cooled is realistic? ...

[husaberg]

Remember our friend BMEP, so have you done the math to check that a 28PS 25NM 125cc air cooled is realistic?

My guess is he was planning on using one of those turbo chargers they used on pre WW2 50cc two strokes. You know the ones he said he was going to show us before posting again......

[wax]

Holy crap I made it to the end,
Frits gave me this link and I read the whole thing, awesome.Its taken me two days and my eyes are about to burn out
There is some great information on here .

You guys are all using the ignitech ignitions which is cool have any of you tried the msd 4217, it throws a spark that will jump back generations.
I wish we had the ignitech / msd 4217 when we were running rs125 engines in the 125 national class when I was living in nz in 1997

Im thinking im going to have to get myself a wobbly pipe for my scooter. Dont have to worry about bottom end it has the worlds best transmission system cvt
hold it on the power peak and let the gearbox do the work

[Brian d marge]

Holy crap I made it to the end,
Frits gave me this link and I read the whole thing, awesome.Its taken me two days and my eyes are about to burn out
There is some great information on here .

You guys are all using the ignitech ignitions which is cool have any of you tried the msd 4217, it throws a spark that will jump back generations.
I wish we had the ignitech / msd 4217 when we were running rs125 engines in the 125 national class when I was living in nz in 1997

Im thinking im going to have to get myself a wobbly pipe for my scooter. Dont have to worry about bottom end it has the worlds best transmission system cvt
hold it on the power peak and let the gearbox do the work

MSD is that the australian bunch , had some dealings with them back in the day about capacitance in a coil ,,,great bunch , open to questions

+1

Stephen

[wax]

http://www.msdpowersports.com/Products/Small-Engine/4217---Universal-1Cyl,-Programmable-Ignition,-Batt-Powered-for-660-Rhino/
This is them here.
Its an america company, its more expensive than the ignitech and Im not sure that they are any better just another ignition

[wax]

We dont race buckets here in Australia we race scooters. Well some people may race buckets but scooters as well

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc79/waxracing/002-38.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc79/waxracing/003-24.jpg

[dinamik2t]

http://www.msdpowersports.com/Products/Small-Engine/4217---Universal-1Cyl,-Programmable-Ignition,-Batt-Powered-for-660-Rhino/
This is them here.
Its an america company, its more expensive than the ignitech and Im not sure that they are any better just another ignition

Its features seem to be inferior to those of Ignitech Race.
In the manual there is a reference to this coil: http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Coils/Stock_Replacement/8232_-_Single_Tower_Coil,_CPC_Ignition.aspx
Click on the specs tab:

Coil Specs
Turns ratio: 85:1
Primary resistance: .09 OHMs
Secondary resistance: 988 OHMs
Inductance: 3.7 mH
Maximum voltage: 43,000 Volts
Peak current: 800 mA
Spark duration: 125 μS (0.125ms)
Weight: 500g

Primary R is super low, according to Wob's sayings on performance. Secondary though is barely in the kΩ range. And those 85 turns, with Ignitech's 300V would be 'only' 25.5kV. Duration seems a little short too, according to what you people said earlier.

[dmcca]

We dont race buckets here in Australia we race scooters. Well some people may race buckets but scooters as well

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc79/waxracing/002-38.jpg
http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc79/waxracing/003-24.jpg

Hi Wax, nice scooter pics... Where are you in OZ? I wouldn't mind checking out the scooter race scene over here

Dave.

[wax]

Thanks
Im on the gold coast, the racing is in brisbane an hour up the road.
The 24 hour is held on the gold coast ( bikini central)

[Bren_chch]

The 24 hour is held on the gold coast ( bikini central)

On my way!!

[husaberg]

On my way!!
Take that guy. Bikini girls seem to Worship him.
http://www.chinabuzz.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/bikini-girls-worship-Buddha-1.jpg

[SwePatrick]

A little question for anyone interested:

when altering rodlength in the same setup, are there any gains or losses due to altered time the full areas are open in cylinder(spool and exhaust)

We all know that longer rod is having slower pistonspeeds at tdc and bottom tdc.

Rgds.
Patrick

[dinamik2t]

In a 54.5 stroke engine, with a given port distance from TDC, increasing the rod** C2C length 5mm, would decrease total timing by 0.6 degrees.

Starting at 26mm from TDC (200 deg total) and 105 rod:
> 110 rod = 199.4 total timing
> 115 rod = 198.8 >> >>
> 120 rod = 198.2 >> >>

So, you would have to reset the timings. That's port wise, the rest you could look them up in the forum :)


**for usual "125ish" rod length 105~120mm. e.g. at 100 rod length, same case as above, duration would be 200.8 (+0.8deg/5mm)

[husaberg]

Anyone out there have a RS125 NF4 radiator they can measure up for

Height
Height of finned area
Width
Thickness

Pretty please there could be a Chocolate fish in it.....

[bucketracer]

265364


... why not take that approach and look at the advantages of a rideable, torquey, smooth engine.

Rideable and torquey its what TeeZee and Thomas have been advocating for ages and have posted how Team ESE have achieved that with 26-28 HP and a best run of 18NM with a 4K power spread.

This is the sort of engine that Chambers prepaired for Av and she used it at Tokoroa to totally blits the field.

If anyone wants to build a similar motor, my links post on page 500 points to the essential information.


... My opinion is that a 28PS 25NM air cooled two stroke 125 would currently clean up in NZ buckets.

Its the 25NM that might be the problem.

265363

It sure might clean up but first lets use BMEP calcs to see if a F4 legal 28PS 25NM air cooled 125 two stroke is possible.

Converting metric to imperial:-

28PS = 27.6BHP (1PS = 0.987BHP)

25NM = 18.4Ft/Lbs (1NM = 0.737Ft/Lb)

Finding the RPM that 28PS 25NM relates to from the formula for HP.

HP = (RPM*Torque)/5252

transposing for RPM gives :-

RPM = (HP*5252)/Torque
RPM = (27.6*5252)/18.4
RPM = 144,955.2/18.4
RPM = 7,878

Now to find the BMEP needed for a 125 2-Stroke to make 25PS at 7,878RPM

BMEP = (HP*6500)/(L*RPM)
BMEP = (27.6*6500)/(0.125*7878)
BMEP = 179,400/984.75
BMEP = 182.2 PSI

Converting PSI to Bar. 1PSI = 0.06895Bar

182.2 PSI = 12.6 Bar

That's a higher BMEP than Wobblys water cooled F3 400 or the Honda 500 V Twin GP bike.


My opinion is that a 28PS 25 NM air cooled two stroke 125 would currently clean up in NZ buckets. It might even get some points just by virtue of finishing a race. (or starting)

Unless someone knows more than Wob and Honda I am not sure they could make a 28PS 25NM 125 F4 legal 125 air cooled 2-Stroke let alone finish a race or even start one.

265349

I think the idea of a high 25NMs of torque and 28PS from a 125 aircooled is ... Busted

[koba]

As I am obviously full of shit and know nothing about twostrokes, I will refrain from helping people on this site with posts, until ESE BULLSHIT
contributes something of tangible use.

Ignore the stupid, shit-stirring fool.

[Frits Overmars]

....We all know that longer rod is having slower pistonspeeds at tdc and bottom tdc.I didn't know that. Patrick. I always thought that piston speed at tdc and at bdc was zero, irrespective of rod length :shifty:.

[bucketracer]

Anyone out there have a RS125 NF4 radiator they can measure up
Pretty please there could be a Chocolate fish in it.....

I like chocolate fish, so is that the pre 95 RS? as we have one of those.

[husaberg]

I like chocolate fish, so is that the pre 95 RS? as we have one of those.

Yes it is the pre 95 (NF4). the 95 and later is the NX4 is very conventional looking But they are all Hondalishish the later ones just more so:drool:
http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/m/mYLugEr9rLwNBKLJknc8nDw/140.jpg
PS that would be great if you could.

i am assuming,Maybe guessing (i don't think i am clever enough to make assumptions) that as i will be aiming for approx 4/5 of the HP and 4/5 of the engine size i can predict i will need 4/5 of the cooling capacity?Yeah i know it wont be that simple as the tank sizes construction etc will vary heaps but i am an optimist.
Is there any rules of thumbs regarding radiator sizes?

I see in my attachments the 95 on NX4 is 19% larger area.but i guess over-cooled a lot of the time in the NZ climate?

[cotswold]

I see in my attachments the 95 on NX4 is 19% larger area.but i guess over-cooled a lot of the time in the NZ climate?[/QUOTE]

Not just the NZ climate, used a lot of tape in cold old UK as well.

[Brian d marge]

I did some work on Enfield engine cooling if its any help

Stephen

[husaberg]

I did some work on Enfield engine cooling if its any help

Stephen

Was it?:lol:

[Brian d marge]

Was it?:lol:

No,,,,

Stephen

Actually it made me even more impressed by those old english designers ...just enough and no more !

[bucketracer]

Anyone out there have a RS125 NF4 radiator they can measure up for

Height, Height of finned area, Width, Thickness.

Pretty please there could be a Chocolate fish in it.....

350mm x 168mm x 30mm

[TZ350]

Page 540 Link list 2 go here.

[2T Institute]

http://stores.ebay.com.au/radiatorwarranty/Bike-Radiator-/_i.html?_fsub=1561038018&_sid=845680078&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

This bloke is very helpful with custom rads, email mudmap or CAD file $120AUD delivered , good quality too :niceone:

[wobbly]

Well sorry guys looks like I am full of shit - after a day on the dyno ( using load control to simulate full throttle acceleration in 6th gear @285Km/Hr )
I only got 96Hp @11200 from the 400 F3.
EGT was stable at 1200F,12000rpm, so there are at least 2 jets leaner in the tuning, but I want to strip it before dialling it up any harder to dust 100Hp.
The dyno video and printout are being edited over the weekend, so I can post them here and hang my head in shame for not getting 100Hp AND 100Kg, just talk as usual it seems.

[F5 Dave]

No worries mate, we can doctor the print out, no problem.

My 496 got 96hp on first day, and that's the best its done & is a full fat 25% bigger. I think you'll be kept on the job by customer.

How long till track debut?

[F5 Dave]

http://stores.ebay.com.au/radiatorwarranty/Bike-Radiator-/_i.html?_fsub=1561038018&_sid=845680078&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

This bloke is very helpful with custom rads, email mudmap or CAD file $120AUD delivered , good quality too :niceone:

Do tell, think Bert had used these guys or similar. Have you sent them cad files & gotten a rad? My 496 could do with something bigger, but I'm getting short of money again. I'd precluded a custom rad until I heard of the prices out of Ch.

[Farmaken]

SAY WHAT ????

96 Hp, 285 km/h , 400cc

I just messed my pants:eek:

Go Wobbly, good to see you back. :cool::cool::cool::2thumbsup

[twotempi]

Hi Wobbly,

You must be gutted - only 96 hp - on the first dyno run !!!

The other 4 hp will be hiding there somewhere !! Go find it.

:niceone::niceone::niceone::niceone::niceone::nice one::niceone:

[twotempi]

Question to the panel.

I have asked TZ350 this question already but would like a 2nd or 3rd or more opnions please.

With a con-rod which is located by the big end how much side clearance is acceptable at the little end ??

The con-rod i propose to use has 0.5mm side movement of the LE bearing between the bosses of the piston but the conrod can move 4mm.

Is this OK ??

[husaberg]

350mm x 168mm x 30mm

Thanks for that the one i was looking at was too small it would seem by about at least 25% using my cri=ude ri=ule of thumb i was hoping someone would correct me on.
The shroud is cool anyone got one spare or to take a mold of or are they available?


http://stores.ebay.com.au/radiatorwarranty/Bike-Radiator-/_i.html?_fsub=1561038018&_sid=845680078&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

This bloke is very helpful with custom rads, email mudmap or CAD file $120AUD delivered , good quality too :niceone:
Haven't had a chance to look but i can't argue with the price Thanks Lozza.


No,,,,

Stephen

Actually it made me even more impressed by those old english designers ...just enough and no more !

yeah generally speaking they wern't mugs the companies just wouldn't let them develop new stuff cause they wouldn't invest in new tooling or techniques or move with the times.
Shame really most of the top F1 chassis stuff is based out of the UK not to mention the Rally stuff.

Plus Enfield knew somethings with a few bits like the big end and so forth.

[Bert]

Well sorry guys looks like I am full of shit - after a day on the dyno ( using load control to simulate full throttle acceleration in 6th gear @285Km/Hr )
I only got 96Hp @11200 from the 400 F3.
EGT was stable at 1200F,12000rpm, so there are at least 2 jets leaner in the tuning, but I want to strip it before dialling it up any harder to dust 100Hp.
The dyno video and printout are being edited over the weekend, so I can post them here and hang my head in shame for not getting 100Hp AND 100Kg, just talk as usual it seems.

Nice one wob (I'm sure its only the climatic conditions that cut you short by 4HP; what's the dyno error +/-2.5-5%??).
I am sooooo looking forward to seeing them out there; breathing some more life into the class.


Do tell, think Bert had used these guys or similar. Have you sent them cad files & gotten a rad? My 496 could do with something bigger, but I'm getting short of money again. I'd precluded a custom rad until I heard of the prices out of Ch.

Same radiators; different crowd (maybe; who knows these days) and porthole.
Up to the task (in general; good quality) and generally super fast shipping (well the guys I've dealt with at least).

Dave; yes, sent them a scanned sketch and they provided what I wanted; have another one off on the go now.


Thanks for that the one i was looking at was too small it would seem by about at least 25% using my cri=ude ri=ule of thumb i was hoping someone would correct me on.
The shroud is cool anyone got one spare or to take a mold of or are they available?.

just make one man... heat gun and plastic (fish bins seems to cut up alright).

[wobbly]

OK - here is the biggest fuck off imaginable to those people that think a 4T is anything but a heavy pig on wheels.
RZ400 first dyno test - peak torque at 9200, peak power at 11200 - 6th gear run fully loaded, and HOT - and 45% humidity.
Only 96 Hp in a 100Kg bike - am I still full of shit Mr SV650 Helper.
Show us your dyno curve - full throttle at 4000 to red line, and how much does it weigh???
I just bought a set of carbon BST wheels off Aprilia factory bike, just in case we are too heavy,and cant dive under the pigs into the sweeper at Hampton, like Discombe does on my TZ in pre 82 - running wire wheels on a C model,
breaking the lap record - and he is only 69 years old.
And your claim to fame is ?????
No answer - funny that.

[Farmaken]

That there is some sweet power delivery :drinknsin

When can we see it on a track ?? :niceone::niceone:

[Bert]

OK - here is the biggest fuck off imaginable to those people that think a 4T is anything but a heavy pig on wheels.
RZ400 first dyno test - peak torque at 9200, peak power at 11200 - 6th gear run fully loaded, and HOT - and 45% humidity.


:not::not::not::not::clap::niceone:

I can't wait to see this.:first:

[Kickaha]

Do tell, think Bert had used these guys or similar. Have you sent them cad files & gotten a rad? My 496 could do with something bigger, but I'm getting short of money again. I'd precluded a custom rad until I heard of the prices out of Ch.

We built our own for the Superkart I ran, think it was an alloy Commodore core for about $120, split it down the middle and welded our own tanks to the ends, Commodore core would probably to long for your bike but it's just a matter of finding the right core

[dmcca]

hang my head in shame for not getting 100Hp AND 100Kg, just talk as usual it seems.

How can you live with yourself. Back to the drawing board I guess.












While the rest of us marvel at those figures!!!!!!

[Brian d marge]

bored

send pm when something interesting happens

for example ,,if u want a cylinder designed

Stephen

[wax]

OK - here is the biggest fuck off imaginable to those people that think a 4T is anything but a heavy pig on wheels.
RZ400 first dyno test - peak torque at 9200, peak power at 11200 - 6th gear run fully loaded, and HOT - and 45% humidity.
Only 96 Hp in a 100Kg bike - am I still full of shit Mr SV650 Helper.
Show us your dyno curve - full throttle at 4000 to red line, and how much does it weigh???
I just bought a set of carbon BST wheels off Aprilia factory bike, just in case we are too heavy,and cant dive under the pigs into the sweeper at Hampton, like Discombe does on my TZ in pre 82 - running wire wheels on a C model,
breaking the lap record - and he is only 69 years old.
And your claim to fame is ?????
No answer - funny that.

Good effort. Nice wide power band on it. I would love to see some video of it on the track when its all done

[bucketracer]

OK - here is the biggest fuck off imaginable to those people that think a 4T is anything but a heavy pig on wheels.

"Pig on Wheels" someone certainly deserved that, but this is where I have to hold my hand up and say I am very impressed by the frame building and general engineering skills that have gone into some of the 4-Strokes and I think that talent should be appreciated.

[boostin]

Some frame building pictures.

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.357871107593811.80121.162739597106964&type=1

[F5 Dave]

What is outrageous is the 400's curve just seems to go on.

So that was with the FCRs, you had talked about trialing some of those adjustable pjs, but surely this has a solenoid pj?

[wobbly]

Re the small end question.
Sounds exactly like all the RD - RZ Yamaha setup, where they used a very wide small end bearing.
Only thing is to ensure that the needle rollers cant sit outside the edge of the rod when sitting in place correctly, or they catch, and shag everything in sight.

The RZ400 was using 39FCR carbs with the DialAJets mounted.
I disconnected the fuel tube up to them however as I wanted to nail the main size first, after optimising the ignition curve,and the powervalve map.
Ran into a problem near the end of the session that wasted a couple of hours to diagnose.
The oil I was using Elf 909 had separated out in the tank while we had a 1/2 Hr coffee break, and at full noise in 5th gear the engine simply stopped dead during the next all gear run..
Thought I had holes in two pistons, but after hair tearing out, discovered the bowls were full of straight oil.
This seems to go back to years ago with Castrol R separating from Avgas, but I think with 46% humidity that evening, and having real touble getting it to mix - it
needs the old trick of adding some Acetone to prevent dropout.
I love that oil as it was the best I tested in hours of dyno work with KT100, best power and no skirt scratching from running in a new piston
The straight synthetic 976 made no more power at 20:1 ( down from 30:1) and every synthetic tested left vertical scratches on the piston when running in.

Anyway the powerjets were never used, the overev characteristic comes from several hours of juggling the main and air corrector ratio.
Plus of course the ignition curve.
The twin blade powervalve is fully up at 10500, and the good mid torque comes from the correct intake length,with a trumpet 60mm long on the FCR front end.
I could quickly go well over 100RWHp by widening the Ex port out from the 68% it is now - but that setup will be kind on the piston and rings - its a customer bike, and must be dead reliable for a whole race season.

PS - I agree completely re the great engineering and great engineers work on the 4T designs - but this is a 2T forum and when it comes down to it, with a level playing field the ring ding will win every time.
All I am doing is using some of the technology freely available to everyone, to produce a race winner in a class that allows a 650 - 4T to be mown down easily by a well built 400-2T - as it very well should.
Even Stoner says the only reason he would want to stay would be to give him a 500 - 2T to kick diesel arse.

[richban]

piston when running in.

Anyway the powerjets were never used, the overev characteristic comes form several hours of juggling the main and air corrector ratio.


I had heard that the biggest main air jet you can get to work will make the most power with that carb. Did you find any truth in that. Apparently bigger main air jet better atomization? More ponies. Yet to test this with mine.

[wobbly]

I believe that the better fuel atomisation at the expense of the correct fuel curve would work on a 4T.
But as a 2T will throw its piston toys out of the cot at the first hint of a lean condition you have to correct the fuel curve to get the egt numbers progressively rising then stay stable in the overev.
Atomisation takes a back seat to A/F ratio accuracy with a well tuned 2T.
The FCR is a dead cool piece of kit - every circuit is very sensitive and responds immediately and logically to any small change.
1/4 turn on the idle air or fuel will raise or lower idle by 200 rpm straight off.
One main jet is exactly 40* temp change every time - great when you are watching everything in realtime on the dyno and data logging screens, for any indication of an issue or needing to correct a small hole in the delivery.

[richban]

The FCR is a dead cool piece of kit - every circuit is very sensitive and responds immediately and logically to any small change.
1/4 turn on the idle air or fuel will raise or lower idle by 200 rpm straight off.

Yeah the small amount of time I have been playing with the FCR I am super impressed. Like you say. All the circuits seam to talk to you in a very predictable way.

[Brian d marge]

To reply to kicka and bracer , its free to upload a drawing to shapeway ,even easier if you know the volume a cr 250 cylinder would be im guessing about 10 000 yen for the mold then machining costs and casting
Stephen

[husaberg]

To reply to kicka and bracer , its free to upload a drawing to shapeway ,even easier if you know the volume a cr 250 cylinder would be im guessing about 10 000 yen for the mold then machining costs and casting
Stephen

that's about $150 nzd wow

Anyone got the program for a Aprilia 125 cylinder:blip:

Scaled to 100cc

[Brian d marge]

that's about $150 nzd wow

Anyone got the program for a Aprilia 125 cylinder:blip:

Scaled to 100cc

sandstone , is 75 cents us /cm^3 so if you get a cylinder dunk it in some water the overflow or level rise will give u the volume

THEN it has to be finished for casting and cast THEN machined

ALSO ...u may get the cock up factor when casting and start machining only to find a crack ,

the costs might be higher ....

I have a cr250 barrel somewhere, we could try that I suppose

Stephen

[Bert]

that's about $150 nzd wow
Anyone got the program for a Aprilia 125 cylinder:blip:
Scaled to 100cc


sandstone , is 75 cents us /cm^3 so if you get a cylinder dunk it in some water the overflow or level rise will give u the volume
THEN it has to be finished for casting and cast THEN machined. ALSO ...u may get the cock up factor when casting and start machining only to find a crack ,
the costs might be higher ....
I have a cr250 barrel somewhere, we could try that I suppose Stephen

I've got a couple (or 5) of RS and TZ barrels; Crazyman has access to a furnace.... hummm I see a plan growing.

(I'm sure this has been posted before; but...)
Gabriele Gnani on youTube; the basic how to make a 125 GP motor & Bike. Worth a watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-2rJtnkYq4 (gets better at the end)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lj4h9666d9s&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A50p3cg90s4&feature=related

[bucketracer]

To reply to kicka and bracer , its free to upload a drawing to shapeway ,even easier if you know the volume a cr 250 cylinder would be im guessing about 10 000 yen for the mold then machining costs and casting
Stephen

OK, TeeZee has been wanting a triple exhaust port layout for some time and has been persuaded that a sleeve may bring its own problems.

So he has asked me to look into getting an air cooled Suzuki GP125 cylinder made with the Aprilia RS125 port configuration.

I can find the volume of a cylinder when I get into work tomorrow. My plan is to drop a cylinder into a 5L measuring jug, fill it with water to the 5L mark then pull the cylinder out and the difference between the new water level and the 5L mark must be the material volume of the cylinder.

Once I have that whats next?

[husaberg]

OK, TeeZee has been wanting a triple exhaust port layout for some time and has been persuaded that a sleeve may bring its own problems.

So he has asked me to look into getting an air cooled Suzuki GP125 cylinder made with the Aprilia RS125 port configuration.

I can find the volume of a cylinder when I get into work tomorrow. My plan is to drop a cylinder into a 5L measuring jug, fill it with water to the 5L mark then pull the cylinder out and the difference between the new water level and the 5L mark must be the material volume of the cylinder.

Once I have that whats next?

Add some allowance for material for a radial head nice swooping transfers and decent size cooling fins?:)
But are the drawings in the stuff Frits posted enough to work from?
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=256478&d=1328094021
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=250856&d=1321524095

[Brian d marge]

OK, TeeZee has been wanting a triple exhaust port layout for some time and has been persuaded that a sleeve may bring its own problems.

So he has asked me to look into getting an air cooled Suzuki GP125 cylinder made with the Aprilia RS125 port configuration.

I can find the volume of a cylinder when I get into work tomorrow. My plan is to drop a cylinder into a 5L measuring jug, fill it with water to the 5L mark then pull the cylinder out and the difference between the new water level and the 5L mark must be the material volume of the cylinder.

Once I have that whats next?

you multipy the volume bu the cost per cm^3 and thats how much it will cost to print

IF the price is right persuadw you friendly 3d cad operator to draw the thing in 3d , send drawing to shapeways ( after triple checking dims )

wait 5 days , then off to the local casting man ,,,,,,,,

If you can get the casting done and the machining done , then the 3d printing is the easy part ...

ONE thing though sandstone is brittle , ( fins) and poorous , needs sealing if you want a decent surface finish )

Stephen

[dmcca]

Data Logging

Wobbly, It looks like you are using a Digatron EGT/CHT gauge on your 400 in the youtube vid... which model are you using and how does it perform?

Im looking at getting one but cant decide which model would be best for me... mainly using it for ride testing dirtbikes, not on a dyno (hopefully that will come later!)... so it needs to record so i can stay focussed on the track then review the data later. Im hoping to use it to tune all carb circuits, but not sure how easy this will be for the pilot and needle unless i can get a log of the tps signal as well?? Regardless id like to have one anyway to play with and learn from.

Thinking about the DT46K model...
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Digatron-DT46K-TEC-Recording-Tachometer-w-EGT-CHT-Exhaust-Head-Temp-NEW-/120894058662?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item1c25d8f0a6#ht_985wt_932

This one has a single screen dispay... are multiple displays better for watching egt/cht comparisons in real time?

[wax]

Those dimensions should be enough to draw it in cad.
I may have a go later for shites and giggles

[husaberg]

I do see one potential snag in the plan bucket.....
The stroke and the bore, Because unless you are planing to stroke the GP125 to 54mm all those clever angles may well be lost in translation.

Didn't someone mention doing a 3d scan of a original cylinder using some sort of medical equipment like a Cat scan? (probably Wob)

yip it was and Frits

I have reverse engineered a couple of parts using CT scan.A place on Remuera Rd did the scans for free, as it was interesting to them.
The big issue is getting the scan data into a format that can be manipulated by a CAD program.
This in the first instance cost plenty to have done - then my son did a torrent download of a 30K USD program that can take the scan data and turn it into
a .xt solid for example.
There are even programs now that can create a constructional element tree that emulates how SolidWorks would have created the part.
Constructing a cylinder as a solid model from scratch stretches the limits of the system, the programs and the CAD engineers intellect.
Last one I did took 6 weeks full time.
Taiwanese companies can now do a one off cylinder casting using Rapid Prototyping with ceramic sand for around 1500USD, about a 1/4 of what the BSL cylinders cost to produce.



The cores for the exhaust and transfer ducts are not the most difficult parts; it is the cooling waterjacket core that really complicates things when you are planning to cast your own cylinders. In my Aprilia-papers there are CT-scans of the ducts and the cooling void, available as soon as mental trousers has worked out a way to make those data accessible.


Last time I looked, (4-5 yrs ago?) they used a proprietary (of course :rolleyes: )mesh based format. I was reviewing a new RP printing system using Ti and Tool steel sintered by microwaves. The app for the system was also mesh based: http://www.materialise.com/Magics-e-Solution-Suite and in fact felt more CGI than CAD to use but worked OK once you got a feel for it.

I normally use Rhino, ( http://www.rhino3d.com/ ) which has some pretty solid translation routines, but I’d be interested in anything that could generate SW constraints / history for a given export...


I don’t doubt it. I’m constantly up against unrealistic expectations of clients about modelling complex shapes, and that's exactly what Rhino’s optimised for.


In my cylinders it was mainly the complicated cooling ducting that forced me to find a way around casting limitations. For an air-cooled cylinder like you want, there is no need to resort to selective laser melting.
Rob Metkemeijer's MB40 prototype engines are cast using the lost-wax method. Below you see a mold with exhaust and transfer cores, a wax cylinder and the end product. A mold like this for an air-cooled cylinder is relatively easy to make.this post has pictures of a lost wax mold etc


What is wrong with a hand job? Several of my acquaintances are carving such a cylinder out of a lump of aluminium. If they can do it, so can you. This post includes pictures of a cylinder being made not cast to the FOS design

the drawings below out of Frits Zip file err i don't actually know what motor they are for?

[TZ350]

I do see one snag in the plan bucket..... The stroke and the bore, Because unless you are planing to stroke the GP125 to 54mm all those clever angles may well be lost in translation.

We have looked at that, currently we bore the B/E pin hole out 3mm for a 22mm pin. And with a little welding on one side we may be able to shift the pin center 2mm for a 54mm stroke. But the big problem then would be case to bigend clearance. It would be tight but maybe possible.

[wobbly]

Be carefull, the Aprilia is 54.5 stroke, but cutting a case trench for the bigend isnt a biggy.

The Digatron is a special model I got that uses Supercaps to power it for review in the pits. DT-52SRE2 DC
It has max recalls and 2Hrs of replayable datalogging on the screen or downloadable data to a PC.
Get it from Exhaust Gas Tecnologies - as they are the only guys that guarantee the probes, used in F1, Nascar etc.
Mine has two screens,default is two egt, second choice is rpm and water temp, but it can be configured to do egt and Cyl head temp,with water and rpm.
Get the twin screen as especially with an air cooled you have to be able to review head and egt at the same time, to see deto dropping the egt as the head skyrockets.
Also has input for magnetic laptime triggering.
The caps get recharged when the bike is running - works a treat and affordable especially if you get someone in USA to buy it
and send cheap USPS to NZ.

[Brian d marge]

Those dimensions should be enough to draw it in cad.
I may have a go later for shites and giggles

If you can export the drg in STEP i can collaborate ..remember to add shrinkage

Stephen

[Yow Ling]

If you can export the drg in STEP i can collaborate ..remember to add shrinkage

Stephen

So realisticly what is the cost of casting a cylinder

the sand guy is NZ$1 per cc, the cad guy will want a grand or 2 , the foundry will probably drop the cores , back to sand guy, machining the casting $500 ?, plating the hole 500? pv blades? porosity could be an issue, Ill bet we all just keep sleeving cylinders in spite of the problems stuffed RGV cylinder $40, sleeve $100, some glue 20.00,


Imaging the hating if you turned up with a $3k barrell

[dmcca]

The Digatron is a special model I got that uses Supercaps to power it for review in the pits. DT-52SRE2 DC
It has max recalls and 2Hrs of replayable datalogging on the screen or downloadable data to a PC.
Get it from Exhaust Gas Tecnologies - as they are the only guys that guarantee the probes, used in F1, Nascar etc.
Mine has two screens,default is two egt, second choice is rpm and water temp, but it can be configured to do egt and Cyl head temp,with water and rpm.
Get the twin screen as especially with an air cooled you have to be able to review head and egt at the same time, to see deto dropping the egt as the head skyrockets.
Also has input for magnetic laptime triggering.
The caps get recharged when the bike is running - works a treat and affordable especially if you get someone in USA to buy it
and send cheap USPS to NZ.


Thanks for the info:niceone:

Ill email them and probably look at one of the 50 series units. Between one of these and the deto sensor you posted a while ago it should be great starting point for some reasonable non-dyno tuning

[husaberg]

So realisticly what is the cost of casting a cylinder

the sand guy is NZ$1 per cc, the cad guy will want a grand or 2 , the foundry will probably drop the cores , back to sand guy, machining the casting $500 ?, plating the hole 500? pv blades? porosity could be an issue, Ill bet we all just keep sleeving cylinders in spite of the problems stuffed RGV cylinder $40, sleeve $100, some glue 20.00,


Imaging the hating if you turned up with a $3k barrell

Glue?

but those costs are for a one off if you were to spread some of them out over a run of 10 of 100cc and 10 of 125cc then the costs come down quite a bit.

What the 88 on the thread really?

Having said that it is getting real hard to finf stuff on the net that doesn't pop up with a link to the thread in some form or another.
i guess Thomas is a real hit with the ladies now with all the exposure hes getting.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=111175&d=1227163070688 views

[Brian d marge]

So realisticly what is the cost of casting a cylinder

the sand guy is NZ$1 per cc, the cad guy will want a grand or 2 , the foundry will probably drop the cores , back to sand guy, machining the casting $500 ?, plating the hole 500? pv blades? porosity could be an issue, Ill bet we all just keep sleeving cylinders in spite of the problems stuffed RGV cylinder $40, sleeve $100, some glue 20.00,


Imaging the hating if you turned up with a $3k barrell

As a rule of thumb , double what you think and add half

Stephen

[Yow Ling]

Glue?

but those costs are for a one off if you were to spread some of them out over a run of 10 of 100cc and 10 of 125cc then the costs come down quite a bit.

What the 88 on the thread really?

if you had a run of 10 done you could argue they were competition parts

isnt this rapid prototyping , they arent exactly cheap production methods

dunno how that 88 got there, good number though

[wobbly]

Two strokers come in your pants

Deleted - political issues.

[F5 Dave]

Very nice.

And a pertinent question, but probably awaiting track test to see it is doing the business, is how much capacity is that Rad? Doesn't have much frontal area but is very thick. My 496 one would be a similar size, maybe a bit smaller, but is only 35mm thick, that looks like 50.

[wax]

Looks good, Keen to see how it goes on the track.
Handing it to the 4 jokes.

[husaberg]

Tech qestion here Wob
I realise most of the stuff was based on the US banshee hence the us driven aftermarket stuff but how close is the RD400 bottom end stuff i understand a lot of the early TZ stuff was very similar to the RD250-350 as well as the DS7 stuff and i understand it was not that hard to mount early TZ top ends on RD's. So other than the obvious stroke being 62mm on the RD400 how does the rest of it vary in the crankcase is it not possible to build a squarer engine or is it a case of using what is commonly available.
I definitely are out of my comfort zone with Yams so if if i have over simplified.

I guess the 400 has wider centers and larger crankcases?

[wobbly]

No - the RD400 is based directly on the early RD cases, in fact a TZ side cover will bolt on - just bigger crank diameter.
The bore centres are 102mm and are common to RD/RZ and is the big Achilles heel of the engines,no room for good transfer duct shape.
The RD400 shares the good gear ratios of the RZ, but the RZ has VERY strong gears, as does the Banshee, but with crap ratio splits.

[husaberg]

No - the RD400 is based directly on the early RD cases, in fact a TZ side cover will bolt on - just bigger crank diameter.
The bore centres are 102mm and are common to RD/RZ and is the big Achilles heel of the engines,no room for good transfer duct shape.
The RD400 shares the good gear ratios of the RZ, but the RZ has VERY strong gears, as does the Banshee, but with crap ratio splits.

Ok then. why is no one build more square big bore engines based on the 400's longer stroke?

[Yow Ling]

Ok then. why is no one build more square big bore engines based on the 400's longer stroke?

You can get banshee cranks up to +10mm (maybe more) no need to use old rd400 cranks

[husaberg]

You can get banshee cranks up to +10mm (maybe more) no need to use old rd400 cranks

Maybe i am Dutch:rolleyes:
ok Scottish
12-16mm billet $1200-1300 US.
I would assume a lot of the others are based on re-welds

[skism]

oh fuk, this stupid boring thread is still going, its fukn over 500 pages.

[Moooools]

oh fuk, this stupid boring thread is still going, its fukn over 500 pages.
:corn::corn::corn::corn::corn::corn:

[Brian d marge]

oh fuk, this stupid boring thread is still going, its fukn over 500 pages.

whee heee 9 posts .....

Stephen

[wobbly]

I suppose its what to expect on a public forum, you get a few public brain dead fuckwits.
The problem with the RD series is the close cylinder stud dimensions.
Means that there is no room for tripple Ex ports nor round the back, room for Boyesen ducts into the case.
The RZ studs are alot wider, and can be made external rather than up thru the cylinder.

[F5 Dave]

Don't worry about that Turkey, he can't even spell Schism.

Just been thinking about air correction jet sizes vs mainjets. I thought you took your chances a bit with what you were provided depending on the carb, but could fill & drill if it were a real mismatch, but that would likely affect the curve on the way up, but I didn't expect it to have a pronounced affect on over rev, or at least hadn't even considered it.

So with a PWK with typically fixed air jet, would one expect some gains here fitting & trialling another size jet?

[2T Institute]

You can get banshee cranks up to +10mm (maybe more) no need to use old rd400 cranks

There is NO comparison between the old air cooled RD cranks and water cooled cranks, the air cooled cranks are works of art, the water cooled cranks are built to a price. RD 400 is the best of the air cooled cranks.

[wobbly]

I have done a heap of machined RZ cranks to fit into RD/LC and then add a special offset locator circlip.
The 58mm stroker will go straight in, any longer stroke needs case trenching that I dont like - the cases are weak enough as it is.
I agree the 400 crank is a good one - with balance holes or lead inserts for balance, its done to 55%, I measured one to check.
But as I said, the stud holes are a real handbrake.

[husaberg]

There is NO comparison between the old air cooled RD cranks and water cooled cranks, the air cooled cranks are works of art, the water cooled cranks are built to a price. RD 400 is the best of the air cooled cranks.




I have done a heap of machined RZ cranks to fit into RD/LC and then add a special offset locator circlip.
The 58mm stroker will go straight in, any longer stroke needs case trenching that I dont like - the cases are weak enough as it is.
I agree the 400 crank is a good one - with balance holes or lead inserts for balance, its done to 55%, I measured one to check.
But as I said, the stud holes are a real handbrake.

So the crankshaft on the LC went to the crankpin as part of the Crankwheel on one side. Yamaha then i guess then back to a more conventional set up on the RZs?
I see as wob alluded that the stud setups are a lot different on the RD400 vs the RZ350/Banshee with the rear center 2 studs offset to the rear.

[Buckets4Me]

Two strokers come in your pants

Deleted - political issues.

what to many 4 strokers complaining :lol::banana:

[wax]

Wobbly Im guessing that the engine stayed as cylinder induction. Do you think it would have made much more if you could have changed it to crank case induction. ??

[husaberg]

Wobbly Im guessing that the engine stayed as cylinder induction. Do you think it would have made much more if you could have changed it to crank case induction. ??

I was looking at a, close to 400cc tzr250 done with Dt200 cylinders today. One model of the 200's even has the aux port exhausts.
70hp but not bad for basically std spec.
Not as cool as Wobs though( one interesting thing with the bike Wob has done is that with the subsitution of a set of US crankcases i guess it would be then BEARS legal. Shit Now that would be controversial wouldn't it!!!!!!

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii158/thor5000/TZR400/Cases1.jpghttp://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii158/thor5000/TZR400/Head.jpghttp://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii158/thor5000/TZR400/OnCylndrs.jpghttp://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii158/thor5000/TZR400/TZR400-70HP.jpg
http://www.rzrd500.com/500phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7172
http://tzrchronicles.blogspot.co.nz/


350mm x 168mm x 30mm

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=265374&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1340325420
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=265376&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1340325460

Getting closer....
http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/tq/66/147463666.jpg
- Core: 305*208*40

- Overall: 402*210*45

http://http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/performance/auction-487331821.htm

[SwePatrick]

I didn't know that. Patrick. I always thought that piston speed at tdc and at bdc was zero, irrespective of rod length :shifty:.

hehe.. sorry.. i was thinking you understood me ;)
I mean AROUND td bdc ;)

I wrote it a bit sloppy.. sorry for that :)

[Frits Overmars]

hehe.. sorry.. i was thinking you understood me ;). I mean AROUND td bdc ;). I wrote it a bit sloppy.. sorry for that :)I did understand you, Patrick; just wanted to give you a wake-up call. Sloppy writing can be an indication of sloppy thinking, and that wouldn't get you any further :msn-wink:.

[wobbly]

The cylinder reed setup is pushed as far as it can be in this engine.In the EngMod simulation it showed that at around 100Hp I needed to increase the time area
of the piston ports as well as make the Boyesen ducts bigger.
I had to CNC cut the cases as well to increase the intake area below the Boyesens.
Case reed has its own problems, in that unless its done well with shrouds over the wheels and the area reduced as much as it can be in front of the petals,the flow from
the reed block simply dumps into a big volume,as opposed to being directed forward and up into the transfer ducts.
Wossner single ring RZ400 Piston is on the right, along with pic of increased area into the case.

PS - the cases I used are brand new Banshee, so it is Bears legal.

[ief]

I see a resemblance :)

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=262310&d=1334854412

Did you defcon the cases as well? Any pics of that?

[SS90]

PS - the cases I used are brand new Banshee, so it is Bears legal.

B.E.A.R.S legal, How so?
Have the rules changed, or have I misunderstood them?
Yamaha engine parts on a B.E.A.R.S bike I thought would be illegal, whereas chassis parts no problem.

[Grumph]

B.E.A.R.S legal, How so?
Have the rules changed, or have I misunderstood them?
Yamaha engine parts on a B.E.A.R.S bike I thought would be illegal, whereas chassis parts no problem.

Rarely for me, I'm with chubby on this one. You can't have a buck each way - either it's F3 legal or not, but making it legal entails establishing it's RZ based....despite the actual country of manufacture.

I admire the work which has gone into it and wish you well - but shit, the grey areas are huge.

[wobbly]

Sorry I havnt read the actual wording of the BEARS regs, I thought that as the Banshee cases are ( were ) manufactured in USA they would qualify.
The cylinder, crank,gearbox,clutch, waterpump,ignition,pistons,powervalves etc are all bears parts.

Here is pic of case filling, and the CNC model used to machine the ducts to suit the new Boyesen tunnels.

[F5 Dave]

I guess if you used some of those machined from billet cases they would be a-mercan? But at what point does the gearbox & clutch etc become jap to Bears? & if something is a clear replica of a japanese design is that legal? Anyway Bears rules aren't my concern atm.

[wobbly]

Yea, you are right - for example the gearbox is a British NOVA close ratio set but its design came from Japan as RZ - end of story I think.

A bit like being able to build a SmallBlockChev, with no GM parts.

[TZ350]

The effective copper fin area is 50% of the original alloy head fin area, a significant increase in engine cooling capacity. As copper has twice the thermal conductivity of aluminium, does this mean I have doubled the cooling capacity of the head?

Thomas has made another copper head fin for one of the other bikes that has a conventionly domed piston and he was able to form the copper so it became a domed squish band. Seems to work OK.


265596

I found amongst the Kart mags that Husaburg lent me an add by Wiseco for copper cylinder heads.

Making a copper cylinder head was an idea that Thomas and I had thought of for ourselves before we knew anyone else had done it.

So its pleasing to be in the company of real industry people with air cooled engine tuning experiance who thought this approach had merit too.

[husaberg]

Yea, you are right - for example the gearbox is a British NOVA close ratio set but its design came from Japan as RZ - end of story I think.

A bit like being able to build a SmallBlockChev, with no GM parts.

I guess if you used some of those machined from billet cases they would be a-mercan? But at what point does the gearbox & clutch etc become jap to Bears? & if something is a clear replica of a japanese design is that legal? Anyway Bears rules aren't my concern atm.

Husaberg err..Jumped the gun on his quip there for two reasons
One the rules say "non Asian Design" Whoops.
Two the rules allow exclusions at the discretion of the committee.



Supplementary Rules General

1. Motorcycles must be of British, European, or American design with an engine and chassis of non Asian design or manufacture.

2. M.N.Z. Licence required. ONE EVENT LICENCES ARE AVAILABLE AGAIN BUT PLEASE CHECK TO SEE THAT YOU ARE ELIGIBLE PRIOR TO RACE DAY.

3. ALCOHOL FUEL. BEARS 4 stroke machines may use alcohol fuel. Any machine using Alcohol fuel must display “Dangerous Goods” or other appropriate stickers which clearly indicate its use, on the machine in a prominent place

4. Leathers and back protectors compulsory as per M.N.Z. rule book.

5. The onus is on the riders to familiarise themselves with the regulations of the M.N.Z. concerning machine preparation and safety equipment. If in doubt contact any M.N.Z. affiliated club or your local Regional Co-ordinator.

MACHINE ELIGIBILITY for any class is at the discretion of the race committee. Ensure your machine complies with class rules


Oh well they would have banned anyway once it started kicking Ducati Butt (PS the old mans got two Ducati two strokes inc one with a set of self made earles forks gee it would be bucket legal)

The gearbox i see as a non issues as you guys remember there was a rather famous Bears bike that amongst other parts contained a Japanese gearbox.
[r rated]http://www.britten.co.nz/photos/images/big15.gif[/r rated]
So whoops bugger and i am a turkey who eats humble pie occasionally.

[ief]

Here is pic of case filling, and the CNC model used to machine the ducts to suit the new Boyesen tunnels.

Cheers Wob, I kind of did the same be it without cnc and more devcon, can't seem to find pics of it tho...

[TZ350]

Ok I have nearly finished fitting the Aprilia TPS and now its time to think about ignition curves again.

I got into trouble at Taupo and Kaitoke by having a to aggresive ignition curve which was great for WOT but over advanced for reduced throttle settings.

265621

This is Wobblys suggestion for my engine on wide open throttle WOT but will need to be retarded around the peak torqe point when the throttle is partly closed.

265620

Here is an Aprilia RS250 curve sent to me by Kel and you can see that above 8,000rpm when its starting to get on the pipe the WOT curve is the most advanced and the curves retard as the throttle opening is reduced.

My mistake was thinking that maximising the power curve by adjusting the ignition on wide open dyno runs which makes for great dyno results and acceleration was the right thing to do. But apparently it leaves the ignition over advanced for reduced throttle settings and was what killed the engine at the GP and Kaitoke.

Talking about this with Speedpro, he suggested that on WOT the cylinder is scavenged well but at reduced throttle settings the cylinder was left with a lot of residual combustion and exhaust gas which greatly reduces the octane rating of the new charge. And with the advanced ignition timing this promotes detonation, hence the need for retarding the ignition when trailing the throttle, Speedpro's explination made sense to me.

[2T Institute]

The start advance is too much
0-1500 10
1600 30

[FastFred]

2T I wouldnt worry about the numbers to much, its the idea that when coming onto the pipe with a partialy closed throttle that the ignition needs to be retarded a bit.

I know its been talked about on this thread before but TZ350's is a pretty good explination.

[wobbly]

The 30* base timing on Robs is just where the rotor ended up, using the stock key position.
Its only effective below 300rpm, where the Ignitech uses the lobe position to spark up initially.
I have used 39* ( the limit of the software ) when converting a HRC - RS250, as the lobes were in an odd place.
You would think it would spit back, but was fine on the Salt speed record bike for example.

Frits alluded to issues with the Aprilia GP engines - they would deto badly on part throttle when doing smokies for the crowd, so the riders were banned from doing it.

[F5 Dave]

Yes I read that & was surprised that they couldn't adjust them for more retard when part throttle vs lower revs. Surely it wouldn't have affected higher rev settings & might have saved some damage. or am I missing something?

I am a bit concerned as I tend to take first session of the day quietly for a few laps. no tyre warmers, cold weather & tyres get reused many races so have to wear the crud off them.

[twotempi]

To Wobbly

The flag-ship Bears bike, namely the Britten, has Japanese clutch and gearbox internals.

Your RZ box therefore is fine .

[2T Institute]

I always use 5-15deg up to 1500 to make them easy to start, a NF4 kart we use 5deg up to 1500 no straps on wheel or pushers required.


RE BEARS racing think you will find the Aprilia RS250 is OK just because it has 'aprilia' cast into the cylinders and ignition cover well it is here anyway. Beware though they are not fond of 2 strokes.


FastFred
2T I wouldnt worry about the numbers to much, its the idea that when coming onto the pipe with a partialy closed throttle that the ignition needs to be retarded a bit.

I know its been talked about on this thread before but TZ350's is a pretty good explination.

Won't apply unless you have a TPS installed the curve is a 2D curve.

[jasonu]

To Wobbly

The flag-ship Bears bike, namely the Britten, has Japanese clutch and gearbox internals.

Your RZ box therefore is fine .

That is hair splitting and good luck convincing the BEARS guys too.

[Yow Ling]

I always use 5-15deg up to 1500 to make them easy to start, a NF4 kart we use 5deg up to 1500 no straps on wheel or pushers required.


RE BEARS racing think you will find the Aprilia RS250 is OK just because it has 'aprilia' cast into the cylinders and ignition cover well it is here anyway. Beware though they are not fond of 2 strokes.



Won't apply unless you have a TPS installed the curve is a 2D curve.

Bears dont allow RS250's or even Italian built NSR125's, John Britten probably had special rights as he was in the Bears inner circle

[F5 Dave]

. . Beware though they are not fond of 2 strokes.
. . .
Previous owner of a mates 256 engined GP bike found that back in late 80s. think he got bumped up to thier equiv of F1 when it became apparent his battles with the top 600(?) ducati was he was foxing & managed a last min pass to win. But if he made a mistake or got baulked he was able to catch up the distance in less than a lap.:pinch:

[Grumph]

Bears dont allow RS250's or even Italian built NSR125's, John Britten probably had special rights as he was in the Bears inner circle

Correct - and as long as having his bikes at the Sound of Thunder got another 5 - 8 thousand through the gate he could do what he liked.
the point I was trying to make re Wobs masterpiece is that to be F3 legal in NZ he's got to convince the commisioners that the motor is based on a road unit complete with factory numbers..and I take that to be an RZ, or at least in the RZ family. The Banshee, a road motor ? Hmmm. Grey as i said.
Once he's gone down that path he can not reverse and claim it's american made therefore BEARS eligible. Catch 22.
The BEARS would make it run in F1 anyway...will it be competitive with the 1000 BMW's ?

[F5 Dave]

I think we've slipped into some loose arguing by accidental typing. I think it would be very easy to argue that the Banshee cases are so RZ derived that one could swap for the other with little consequence so they are essentially RZ cases, heck if you have to argue that heavily- go get some RZ cases. Indeed my RZ has almost the same barrels on it in 496 configuration.

There are some made from Billet cases that are A'merkiclown made, maybe that was the confusion. Either way no real drama & off topic here.

Wob has got clarification from commissioner that this is F3 (or pro whatever they call it now) legal, at least he said when we'd talked about it about a year ago.

[husaberg]

To Wobbly

The flag-ship Bears bike, namely the Britten, has Japanese clutch and gearbox internals.

Your RZ box therefore is fine .
it had a few more Japanese bits that that as well BTW depending on the stage of development......
THe MNZ also changed the rules to accommodate it in the superbike class as well remember..... They
even paid money to get it to events to get more bums on seat as well.

Err...but did you, have a read of the last page.....:brick:

Husaberg err..Jumped the gun on his quip there for two reasons...............

Gee It even had a nice picture an R rated one (for this thread anyway...)


Anyhow What about this.

Remember how Bears the Classics and the even the 4 stroke Nationals (Thumper nats) started because, there was no class to race their beloved bikes competitively.
Based on the pretext that less rules equal more fun so
I suggest 2 stroke Open formula race class.....

Twins Class only rule it has to have only two cylinders and be two stroke.
Singles Class only rule it has to be a 2 stroke with no more than 1 cylinder.

In the best tradition of the MNZ it could be self policing.

[TZ350]

Won't apply unless you have a TPS installed the curve is a 2D curve.

Yes, I am in the process of installing a TPS from an Aprilia RS250. My model of IgniTech has the choice of two 2D maps that the TPS can switch between or one 3D map. And then I want to make the det pickup/amplifier/headphone thing and get the det sensor working with the IgniTec.

The point I was trying to make with my post earlier was, contry to intuition (mine anyway) that when on the pipe, less throttle calls for less advance where as a 4-stroke is small throttle more advance.

[bucketracer]

The ica 100cc kart engines use diaphragm carbs with a choke size of 24mm. However by the carb exit they have diffused out to 27/28 mm. They bolt directly to the engine manifold and appear to diffuse out in area even more but hard to tell as the profile shape changes to match the reed block. This ibea carb is particularly good. http://www.out2win.com/catalog/images/ibeal5.jpg

The replacement world championship class is now called kf2 and these engines are 125cc with reed induction and powervalves. They use the same 24 mm carb design. the l6 carb shown here is homologated for this class. http://www.out2win.com/catalog/ibea.html

People are claiming 38hp plus for these engines. Clearly the carb is not holding them back too much!!!!

The 24mm carb rule is not the limit in horsepower development for a bucket that people think it is provided you use a diffuser. A 30mm at most area inlet port for a disc valve is all that is required with a nice tapered diffuser. Any bigger than 30mm will be a waste of time.

Some of these old posts are worth a re visit. High 30's hp with a 24 mm carb so long as it has a diffuser shape tapering out from the slide.


Taper Bored 24mm OKO, its 24mm at the very front, 29mm at the slide and 30mm at the manifold end.

263055 263056 263057

TeeZee spent hours on the Dyno re discovering or at least understanding what Sonic_V meant by a diffuser carb and the angles involved.

The trick with the diffuser angles is to not make them to steep and have the expanding mixture becoming turbulent, breaking away from the walls and reducing the effective flow area inside the carb.

125 reed induction Kart engines making 38+hp with a 24mm carb and TeeZee has wrung 34 crank hp out of his engine.

So it makes you wonder, whats the point of continuing the 24mm carb restriction for F4 125 2-stroke Bucket engines....:scratch:

[wobbly]

The Banshee castings are identical to the RZ, its just they are available still - as a new part, so there is no issue with getting that portion of
the argument past MNZ.
I spoke to everyone involved over a year ago when starting to get near finishing another customer bike.
An RGV chassis with Honda 400 tripple.
At that time all of the MNZ people stated that building hybrids was the whole point of the new class rules,mainly so that old race chassis lying around could be used again - but
with road based cases, thus getting more participants on track,without letting in million dollar GP bikes.
I am sitting here ( I do that most of the time - bugger ) fingers etc crossed that by inadvertently doing a good job, I have shown the way forward to having 2Ts at the pointy end.
Some may find this will stick in the 4T craw,I just hope it doesnt derail the whole intent of the Superlite regs, that with luck, will be ratified officially on Sunday - as is required by the MNZ constitution.

[wax]

I hope you havent done to good a job wobbly. They will outlaw you if your to good. Its what they do when they cant do it themselves

[bucketracer]

They will outlaw you if your to good. Its what they do when they cant do it themselves

So true .......... and all you can say is ... :motu:

[husaberg]

Not picking on Air cooling

OK there is Nothing mind blowing in here. It is also tempting to be lured to the Air cooling side what with that 25cc advantage and all too.
Each indeed has its own pros and cons.

Interesting thing is how much sense the bit from Peter Inchley makes... with regards to what Frits also has said.

The second two are just some japanese designer interperated....Back when it was becoming fashionable again (long hair was also in i guess and smoking pot too)
The last two are the SPX engine for giggles.

PS i see Jan Thiel also popped in for a look last night. It would be lovely so hear some gospel from him too:drool:
Not to say that Frits and Wob are not doing an excellent job of educating us :rockon:

[Brian d marge]

The Banshee castings are identical to the RZ, its just they are available still - as a new part, so there is no issue with getting that portion of
the argument past MNZ.
I spoke to everyone involved over a year ago when starting to get near finishing another customer bike.
An RGV chassis with Honda 400 tripple.
At that time all of the MNZ people stated that building hybrids was the whole point of the new class rules,mainly so that old race chassis lying around could be used again - but
with road based cases, thus getting more participants on track,without letting in million dollar GP bikes.
I am sitting here ( I do that most of the time - bugger ) fingers etc crossed that by inadvertently doing a good job, I have shown the way forward to having 2Ts at the pointy end.
Some may find this will stick in the 4T craw,I just hope it doesnt derail the whole intent of the Superlite regs, that with luck, will be ratified officially on Sunday - as is required by the MNZ constitution.

Probably the one thing that would get me back ,,to watching road racing in NZ ...loads of home built strokers fanging around Paroa ...how awesome would that be

Stephen

[Frits Overmars]

Frits alluded to issues with the Aprilia GP engines - they would deto badly on part throttle when doing smokies for the crowd, so the riders were banned from doing it.

Yes I read that & was surprised that they couldn't adjust them for more retard when part throttle vs lower revs. Surely it wouldn't have affected higher rev settings & might have saved some damage. or am I missing something?Part-throttle deto at high revs (that is what you use in a burn-out) has nothing to do with ignition timing. At high revs the blowdown time area is still sufficient to let the cylinder pressure drop below the crankcase pressure by the time the transfers open, at full throttle.
But at part throttle, the crankcase pressure is a lot lower, lower even than the cylinder pressure, so exhaust gas will enter the transfer ducts, polluting and heating up the fresh mixture. This mixture will then show its displeasure by detonating.
One last word about ignition timing: part throttle, or reduced cylinder filling in general, allows for more ignition advance.

[dinamik2t]

One last word about ignition timing: part throttle, or reduced cylinder filling in general, allows for more ignition advance.

That I noticed too in EngMod2t parameter "combustion efficiency". The lower the value, the higher you could go in ignition timings. So the number reflects the cylinder filling I guess - among other things.

[Haufen]

Not picking on Air cooling

OK there is Nothing mind blowing in here. It is also tempting to be lured to the Air cooling side what with that 25cc advantage and all too.
Each indeed has its own pros and cons.

Interesting thing is how much sense the bit from Peter Inchley makes... with regards to what Frits also has said.

The second two are just some japanese designer interperated....Back when it was becoming fashionable again (long hair was also in i guess and smoking pot too)
The last two are the SPX engine for giggles.

PS i see Jan Thiel also popped in for a look last night. It would be lovely so hear some gospel from him too:drool:
Not to say that Frits and Wob are not doing an excellent job of educating us :rockon:


When I read the words getting hot and losing power at the beginning of the article you posted, an old article by Dale Alexander came to my mind. I have not read it for a long time, but I remember it being useful when racing aircooled two-stroke engines. Basically, the things mentioned in the article have already been discussed here in one way or another, but it's a good read anyway. In case you don't already know it, enjoy!

http://justyamahard350.com/articles/dale_1.htm

[wobbly]

Heres hoping that MNZ allows us to do what we Kiwis are good at, making shit that works.

The SPX read brought home one thing AGAIN, I have been thru this so many times its boring.
Peak power at 6000, means the pipes are about 2 metres long - and you are going to fit these WHERE???
I got involved with a project where an idiot wanted a 1200 triple 2T to go into a ZX10, he just couldn't accept that with and engine that big I
simply couldn't fit pipes in.
Same with a 1000 twin proposal.
Go down to say a slightly oversquare 900 triple and it may be possible - and could easily make over 200 Hp, but no,it had to be BIG.
ie inversely proportional to his dick size.

[kel]

Part-throttle deto at high revs (that is what you use in a burn-out) has nothing to do with ignition timing. At high revs the blowdown time area is still sufficient to let the cylinder pressure drop below the crankcase pressure by the time the transfers open, at full throttle.
But at part throttle, the crankcase pressure is a lot lower, lower even than the cylinder pressure, so exhaust gas will enter the transfer ducts, polluting and heating up the fresh mixture. This mixture will then show its displeasure by detonating.
One last word about ignition timing: part throttle, or reduced cylinder filling in general, allows for more ignition advance.

Excellent explanation Frits, it explains what we see in the RS/RGV250 igniton curve posted by TZ and also explains why I kill TZ's motors as I like to carry part throttle to stay in the power band. Looks like I need to swtich back to my crazy days of youth approach of full brakes or full throttle and nothing in between.

[wobbly]

Re coating pistons with ceramic - the cool boundary layer in the squish helps suppress deto of the trapped end gases.
The ceramic surface is HOT, the alloy underneath is COOL.
Coating the piston or head in the squish CAUSES deto.
HPC have done dozens of pistons and heads for me with a spray mask, to keep the coating in the middle only.
Even doing a clear ceramic for classes where coatings are illegal - woops didnt say that.

And I got the Britten Ex ports coated to help stop the thing boiling on the grid - worked a treat and made more power as well.
Except the first time it was done the valve seats all fell out from the baking process.

[2T Institute]

Previous owner of a mates 256 engined GP bike found that back in late 80s. think he got bumped up to thier equiv of F1 when it became apparent his battles with the top 600(?) ducati was he was foxing & managed a last min pass to win. But if he made a mistake or got baulked he was able to catch up the distance in less than a lap.:pinch:

Yes I urge a owner/rider of a extremely quick Armstrong 256 here to enter a BEARS meeting to see if this will happen.

[jasonu]

Some of these old posts are worth a re visit. High 30's hp with a 24 mm carb so long as it has a diffuser shape tapering out from the slide.



TeeZee spent hours on the Dyno re discovering or at least understanding what Sonic_V meant by a diffuser carb and the angles involved.

The trick with the diffuser angles is to not make them to steep and have the expanding mixture becoming turbulent, breaking away from the walls and reducing the effective flow area inside the carb.

125 reed induction Kart engines making 38+hp with a 24mm carb and TeeZee has wrung 34 crank hp out of his engine.

So it makes you wonder, whats the point of continuing the 24mm carb restriction for F4 125 2-stroke Bucket engines....:scratch:

The other side of your reasoning could say 'Why change the 24mm carb rule as TZ abd co. are makeing good HP with the rule in place.'
If you get rid of the rule TZ makes 40hp, then the 100cc watercooled bikes will want 125cc then the coal burners will want 180cc. The rule works just fine as it is.

[F5 Dave]

Part-throttle deto at high revs (that is what you use in a burn-out) has nothing to do with ignition timing. At high revs the blowdown time area is still sufficient to let the cylinder pressure drop below the crankcase pressure by the time the transfers open, at full throttle.
But at part throttle, the crankcase pressure is a lot lower, lower even than the cylinder pressure, so exhaust gas will enter the transfer ducts, polluting and heating up the fresh mixture. This mixture will then show its displeasure by detonating.
One last word about ignition timing: part throttle, or reduced cylinder filling in general, allows for more ignition advance.

um, thanks i hadn't thought about it like that, my outdated simulation software (my alcohol added brain) tends to think of things at max throttle dyno run performance. If throttle is turned less, less power produced but who cares?, as long as its smooth enough to predictably weight the wheels in the order of rider preference at the time.

so that leads to the point where the unskilled jockey (me) is at max lean or thereabouts & is unweighting the front with some light throttle before the time you can whap it on full. Surely on a small bike that is pretty high revs part throttle position.

Are you saying that with serious RSA style sub ports creating mondo blow down area; its a game changer to when deto sets in?

I can't imagine that a datatrace of even a GP rider is a) on or b) off. On the 500s I think they used to say it was full for like (can't remember) 30% of the time (if you trust journo reporting).

I'm still struggling with this.

[wobbly]

One other point to consider is that the GP bikes have a shift drum sensor, and use different powervalve and ignition maps for each gear.
In this scenario it is acceleration rate/throttle sensor/deto sensor readings that determines how much advance can be used.
In 1,2,3rd gear it can use way more advance as it accelerates way quicker than in say 4,5.6th,when transitioning from part throttle,or simply a full throttle squirt.
The Ignitech can be configured to compute acceleration rate to switch maps, or can use a shift drum sensor.

[husaberg]

Heres hoping that MNZ allows us to do what we Kiwis are good at, making shit that works.

The SPX read brought home one thing AGAIN, I have been thru this so many times its boring.
Peak power at 6000, means the pipes are about 2 metres long - and you are going to fit these WHERE???
I got involved with a project where an idiot wanted a 1200 triple 2T to go into a ZX10, he just couldn't accept that with and engine that big I
simply couldn't fit pipes in.
Same with a 1000 twin proposal.
Go down to say a slightly oversquare 900 triple and it may be possible - and could easily make over 200 Hp, but no,it had to be BIG.
ie inversely proportional to his dick size.

Too right but from what i remember the design didn't use much in the way of pipe tuning hence the HP.(Which i guess would have matched the UJM of the time, Say CB750) it was more about matching the tightening emissions with a simple easy to produce engine with as little amount of parts, but i guess that wasn't your point.
Re the pipes vs engine size that why i think a 2t singles and twins class could be fun.
As there is such a large amount of solutions to work around a the bigger engine wouldn't necessarily rule the roost not to mention the problems of finding big enough carbs as well as fitting in exhausts on large engines.
It would be interesting to have such diverse engines as KTM300's CR500's and RS125's battling it out. Not to mention potentially cheap fun with not so much demand for 90's 2t MX engines. Not to mention jet skis.
The other advantage of a eclusivly 2T class is the 4T can't ban them then.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/VARIABLE9/CR500roadracerTulDa.jpg
http://www.eurospares.com/tulda.jpg
http://thekneeslider.com/images/tularis.jpg

[bucketracer]

The other side of your reasoning could say 'Why change the 24mm carb rule as TZ abd co. are makeing good HP with the rule in place.' If you get rid of the rule TZ makes 40hp, then the 100cc watercooled bikes will want 125cc then the coal burners will want 180cc. The rule works just fine as it is.

I hadn't thought about it, but yes you are right and the 24mm rule is probably the thing that will hold TeeZee back otherwise he would probably be knocking out NZ's first 40hp Bucket.

I agree the rules are just fine as they are.

[bucketracer]

Come to think of it, the 24mm carb rule may not stop TeeZee making 40.

[Brian d marge]

I have some stuff that may be useful , this is about the Ducati trellis frame ,,

Stephen265688

edit ,,the Algorythm they are talking about is like this turbine blade ( I know its not buckets but the concept is the same )

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/YZUNRmwoijw" allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" width="420"></iframe>

[husaberg]

Well Stephen i enjoyed it at least. Make me think of the humble bumble bee.....
Of venom, of spider silk,plant toxins and of Penicillin.
Also why nature rarely has straight lines... and perfect circles.;)
why most of our drugs are synthesized versions of compounds produced from nature.

Take the widely used mectin family of drench.

Solely derived from a compound isolated from a soil sample taken from not far from where you live.(Japland home of HONDA)

It also reminds me of the Aussie guy who made the Camera lens that bent the known understanding of physics (in his back yard.)

[Frits Overmars]

Well Stephen i enjoyed it at least. Make me think of the humble bumble bee.....
You mean that it's scientifically proven that a bumble bee can't fly?
Well, someone forgot to tell the bumble bee :p.

[ief]

You mean that it's scientifcally proven that a bumble bee can't fly?
Well, someone forgot to tell the bumble bee :p.

Science has caught up so now we can tell it what the bumble bee already knew in the first place :)

[136kg136ps]

FWIW Wob your former "associate" has just alienated his cylinder supplier.

I am eternally grateful for TZ starting this and all the info you and Frits have contributed as well as the spin-off and related threads.I don't post as I am out of my league,don't race and content with ~9bar.Plz be aware there many more like me who are lurking and are in awe of the openess and camaraderie displayed among competitors.Best of luck in all your endeavors fellas.

[husaberg]

found this it is from Rob Tuluie from what i understand used to be head of R&D at Renualt F1 and was a Rocket scientist so i guess he is reasonably clever or has good PR. Edit he did this all before turning 39 .
he also designed the frames above.

its about Detonation i haven't actually read it yet.
http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/wrenching-with-robchemical-soup-the-mystery-of-detonation-3420.html
http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/wrenching-with-robchemical-soup-the-mystery-of-detonation-3420.html

fuel
http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/wrenching-with-robchemical-soup-the-meaning-of-gas-3417.html


Come to think of it, the 24mm carb rule may not stop TeeZee making 40.

True but he may have to work within the laws and limits of thermal dynamics and engine capacity still though.(Known limit or unknown)

Reliability
Handling
Ride-ability
HP:2thumbsup

Dyno number are sexy but....

Whoops missed out the 50kg Psychotic dwarf they always help

[wobbly]

I did warn Calvin that my former associate was a lying thieving piece of shit,who would happily two faced - smile and stab him in the back at the same time.
I knew he hadnt paid for alot of product - hard to do when he and his evil cow wife were embezzling funds big time from the company account.
It will take me a long time to recover financially and emotionally.
The 400 F3 result is the first good news in a while.

[wax]

I always find people who bad mouth alot have something to hide. I tend to avoid them.
If its the person I'm thinking your talking about wayne I'm avoiding them already.
It didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out there was more to the story than I was being told

[dinamik2t]

Me on the other hand, I always wondered why hard-to-comprehend situations are associated with "rocket" science.. Ok, it a distant place, but try learning quantum mechanics for instance :crazy:.
:p

[TZ350]

Reliability
Handling
Ride-ability
HP:2thumbsup

I absolutly totaly agree with this ......


Dyno numbers are sexy ....

Yes sir, they sure are ... and its what I am best at, well better at than riding anyway.

Hopefully one day someone with riding talent will get one of these high hp engines sorted and in a good chassis.


50kg Psychotic dwarf they always help

They sure do, but even a 50kg Psychotic dwarf notices it when they are down on power.

[husaberg]

They sure do, but even a 50kg Psychotic dwarf notices it when they are down on power.

yeah but sometimes they grit there teeth and just ride the wheels of it after all they are psychotic:eek5:
Either that or they finish the race put it in neutral and give it maximum revs till it seizes and go back to their motor home wash there hands 100 times wash there gear with a toothbrush and wonder why no ones gives them a contract for next season.
http://www.motorevue.com/article/article/john-kocinski-est-sans-doute-passe-a-cote-d-une-carriere-autrement-plus-brillante-s-il-avait-fait-preuve-d-un-comportement-plus-raisonnable-c-mr-56689-1-zoom.jpg


Me on the other hand, I always wondered why hard-to-comprehend situations are associated with "rocket" science.. Ok, it a distant place, but try learning quantum mechanics for instance :crazy:.
:p
The term Rocket science is a western pop culture saying. It mainly stems from the term to describe people who are not so bright.
They are desribed as not being a rocket scientist.
The major problem with using quantum physics or mechanics as an example is no really does fully understands it.
I put in the Tuluie was a rocket science because it was funny that he was one.

[Kickaha]

missed out the 50kg Psychotic dwarf they always help
Stop picking on Shaun Harris

[husaberg]

Stop picking on Shaun Harris
Sure he's got the freckles, but is Jon ginga enough to be The Gremlin?http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/customavatars/thumbs/avatar4323_5.gif

[TZ350]

yeah but sometimes they grit there teeth and just ride the wheels of it.

Yep, I have seen that, but I am not sure that given the choice the 50kg Psychotic dwarf would chose the under powered slug.

[wax]

Me on the other hand, I always wondered why hard-to-comprehend situations are associated with "rocket" science.. Ok, it a distant place, but try learning quantum mechanics for instance :crazy:.
:p
You dont understand the saying. Im guessing rocket science is not your thing either huh

:killingme

[Frits Overmars]

I always wondered why hard-to-comprehend situations are associated with "rocket" science.. Ok, it a distant place, but try learning quantum mechanics for instance. You make it sound like quantum mechanics is difficult :p. Try reading the Microsoft Windows 95 manual (it's three times as thick as Einstein's 'Theory of Relativity').

[wax]

You make it sound like quantum mechanics is difficult :p. Try reading the Microsoft Windows 95 manual (it's three times as thick as Einstein's 'Theory of Relativity').

Im not sure what your talking about computers are easy its the photocopier that screws my day

[dinamik2t]

You make it sound like quantum mechanics is difficult :p. Try reading the Microsoft Windows 95 manual (it's three times as thick as Einstein's 'Theory of Relativity').

It has a large case volume to help filling your head with nonsense I guess..?



You dont understand the saying. Im guessing rocket science is not your thing either huh
:killingme

Yeah.. I am humble physics student who hasn't even passed his plain Newtonian mechanics.

@ Husa
Hope you weren't offended -I didn't mean to. Sure, it's a saying and .. surer for one thing to become popular it must be accesible (by comprehension or incomprehensive admiration) to the masses.:pinch:


edit:
Frits. To the left is the book for (intro to) Special Relativity. To the right the one for Modern Operating Systems. Need you say more? :p

265726

[Haufen]

quick musical interlude:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=echeYDYFhlY

[Frits Overmars]

Slow musical interlude (relax, keep your revs down):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDHzK3Xe7Yw

[2T Institute]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZncehIh_Kw

[HPbyGD]

Actually when I built this motor for the guy he wanted to use 93 octane pump gas fuel and after he got the jetting and timing better but still conservative it made 78 RWHP. I am in the process of trying to get it better and should have it back together pretty soon. I have to say that Vannik's software and Woobly and Lozza and all the other two stroke gurus have given me lot of help to further my old brain to more modern thinking. hahaha

Gary :woohoo:




I was looking at a, close to 400cc tzr250 done with Dt200 cylinders today. One model of the 200's even has the aux port exhausts.
70hp but not bad for basically std spec.
Not as cool as Wobs though( one interesting thing with the bike Wob has done is that with the subsitution of a set of US crankcases i guess it would be then BEARS legal. Shit Now that would be controversial wouldn't it!!!!!!

http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii158/thor5000/TZR400/Cases1.jpghttp://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii158/thor5000/TZR400/Head.jpghttp://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii158/thor5000/TZR400/OnCylndrs.jpghttp://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii158/thor5000/TZR400/TZR400-70HP.jpg
http://www.rzrd500.com/500phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7172
http://tzrchronicles.blogspot.co.nz/



http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=265374&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1340325420
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=265376&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1340325460

Getting closer....
http://images.trademe.co.nz/photoserver/tq/66/147463666.jpg
- Core: 305*208*40

- Overall: 402*210*45

http://http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/motorbikes/parts-for-sale/performance/auction-487331821.htm

[husaberg]

Actually when I built this motor for the guy he wanted to use 93 octane pump gas fuel and after he got the jetting and timing better but still conservative it made 78 RWHP. I am in the process of trying to get it better and should have it back together pretty soon. I have to say that Vannik's software and Woobly and Lozza and all the other two stroke gurus have given me lot of help to further my old brain to more modern thinking. hahaha

Gary :woohoo:
So Gary can you give us some details regarding the engine as the post i quoted was rather thin.
like the stroke for instance.

[bucketracer]

I can't claim responsibility for this engine, but (so far) the highest power I have seen from this capacity with a 24mm Carb is this series of runs.

265733


What is possible is say 22-25 HP at 10,500, and that, from my experience is not only feasable, but race winning as well......


Why not be happy with a 25PS stroker? The current stable of dominant bikes all have that, or considerably less, so why not take that approach .....


My opinion is that a 28PS air cooled two stroke 125 would currently clean up in NZ buckets......


I truly believe in the future it will be 30hp 2 strokes but I am certain it won't be from engines with single exhaust ports, it's just pushing ring and piston life too far, and to get that power, serious blowdown is required, and therefore narrow power.

Looks like the hp ideal is creeping up.

265732

TeeZees 30hp single exhaust port engine, I am not sure a 9-13,000rpm torque curve is all that narrow.


I have often wondered why no one has really gone into expansion chambers in a big way on this thread.....

Instead of posting endless Internet jibber jaber, if your technically competent this is where you could make your name and enjoy some real respect ......

[gav]

Is Team ESE bringing there 30hp GP125 down to Battle of the Buckets then?

[2T Institute]

I have to say that Vannik's software and Woobly and Lozza and all the other two stroke gurus have given me lot of help to further my old brain to more modern thinking. hahaha

Gary :woohoo:

The criteria and standards for being a guru would have to be lowered considerably for me to step in there Gaz.:chase:

[TZ350]

Is Team ESE bringing there 30hp GP125 down to Battle of the Buckets then?

The 30hp unit should maybe finish a few races :pinch: before we drag it to the BOB.

There is talk, and the logistics seem difficult, but someone posted a good idea, hire a moving truck and fill it up with bikes, share driving either way and the others fly in/out on cheap Graba Seats, so it could be doable.

Whatever, I would like to, it would be great, to just be there. .... :D

[Kickaha]

Is Team ESE bringing there 30hp GP125 down to Battle of the Buckets then?

Maybe they want to bring a bike that will last the distance instead? :whistle:

[TZ350]

Maybe they want to bring a bike that will last the distance instead? :whistle:

Yes true .....
265746265747

I am not sure, but tell me again, just how many people did she lap before changing gear by hand became to difficult.

Anyway who cares, just getting there and enjoying the racing, the track and everyones company will be enough.

[Kickaha]

but tell me again, just how many people did she lap before changing gear by hand became to difficult.
Probably everyone who finished and beat her in the end

[Fast Eddie]

Is Team ESE bringing there 30hp GP125 down to Battle of the Buckets then?

hehe sounds mint!

are you allowed 125 2 stroke in buckets? or.. is it a 4str?

[Kickaha]

hehe sounds mint!

are you allowed 125 2 stroke in buckets? or.. is it a 4str?

4 stroke to 150cc
2 stroke air cooled 125cc
2 stroke watercooled 100cc

[husaberg]

hehe sounds mint!

are you allowed 125 2 stroke in buckets? or.. is it a 4str?

F4
125cc air cooled 24mm carb (give or take a few cc's)
100cc liquid cooled open carbs (give or take a few cc's)
As big as you can get away with foul strokes normally aspirated
and super or turbo 100 cc foul stroke or there about's

F5 50cc 2 strokes
100cc four stroke



Look at this
100cc 2 stroke twin
http://2strokebiker.blogspot.co.nz/2012/02/amazing-bike-ive-never-heard-of-ace.html
http://www.2strokeworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=13707.30

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XpYTsUzgGdI/T0PCJLQIgTI/AAAAAAAAVbY/2SgVA3vQSug/s1600/v5.JPGhttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FBPOjgWIJxg/T0PCIdeGSLI/AAAAAAAAVbQ/XqnAkMxDe8g/s640/v4.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=swAaHtLPzI8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zLjqa0ZNu1w

Silly bugger rides it on the wrong side of the road:eek5:
worth a watch alledgedly a 100 but if it really is it must be very light in the front and well undergeared
also note it wheelies past a vespa

[TZ350]

Probably everyone who finished and beat her in the end

As for 2 Strokers, I am picking that Brendan from ChCh will be the one to watch this year.

[wax]

F4
125cc air cooled 24mm carb (give or take a few cc's)
100cc liquid cooled open carbs (give or take a few cc's)
As big as you can get away with foul strokes normally aspirated
and super or turbo 100 cc foul stroke or there about's

F5 50cc 2 strokes
100cc four stroke



Look at this
100cc 2 stroke twin
http://2strokebiker.blogspot.co.nz/2012/02/amazing-bike-ive-never-heard-of-ace.html
http://www.2strokeworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=13707.30

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XpYTsUzgGdI/T0PCJLQIgTI/AAAAAAAAVbY/2SgVA3vQSug/s1600/v5.JPGhttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FBPOjgWIJxg/T0PCIdeGSLI/AAAAAAAAVbQ/XqnAkMxDe8g/s640/v4.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=swAaHtLPzI8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zLjqa0ZNu1w

Silly bugger rides it on the wrong side of the road:eek5:
worth a watch alledgedly a 100 but if it really is it must be very light in the front and well undergeared
also note it wheelies past a vespa
Its running two 94cc polini cylinders by the look of it.
So up from 1o0cc to 188cc
thats why its pulling up the front end

[husaberg]

Its running two 94cc polini cylinders by the look of it.
So up from 1o0cc to 188cc
That's why its pulling up the front end

Yeah you would think so (as do I) but the thread where it is mentioned is adamant it is only 100cc.

http://www.2strokeworld.com/forum/index.php?topic=13707.30
Don't think much of the routing on the exhaust though. You think it would/Should be under the seat

[wax]

The 50cc evo polini cylinder doesnt look like that.

The 94 does however

[bucketracer]

When I was a Tec at Auck Uni Eng dept in the 80's they had a Ricardo variable compression engine in the thermo lab that I used for checking the octane rating and calorific value of fuels.

265837

There you are TeeZee the Ricardo is still there and there are other dynos there too.

Check it out .... http://www.mech.auckland.ac.nz/uoa/thermodynamics-lab

The Engine research facility is located within the Thermodynamics Laboratory of The University of Auckland and is well equipped to conduct a wide range of engine and fuels research and development.

[husaberg]

RSA vs RSW125 the diak valve position is an obvious difference Frits has also alluded to rod length and primary comp what are the other differences.
On the Pitlane thread Frits has shared the port timing for the RSA as being Exhaust 202°, A-transfers 130°, B- and C-transfers 132°
He has also shared the dimensions previously of the exhaust i also assume was the RSA.
for which i are eternally grateful.

What were the other major other differences were there, if its not to much to ask.?

I always thought the change to the rear mounted disk was to narrow the engine up but was that the only reason?

Thanks Frits for your time and your patience. I see by read another forum a lot of the questions asked can be quite repetitive.:innocent:

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=261462&stc=1&thumb =1&d=1333621581
http://i45.servimg.com/u/f45/15/75/62/05/aprili11.png

[teriks]

I always thought the change to the rear mounted disk was to narrow the engine up but was that the only reason?
They gained power doing so, I'll try to dig up that post, will take some time though.

PS, that port layout is from a 6.6cc RC pylon racing engine, or at least the picture of the cylinder.

[teriks]

So, I might have read more into it than there was, anyway, this is the post I was thinking about.


In theory enclosed cranks are good. Jan Thiel did some experiments at Aprilia with a kart engine that had its reed valve at the front: the incoming mixture had to move against the direction of crank rotation. And although the crankcase stretched over the crank webs, reversing the direction of rotation brought another HP. So the crankshaft does have an influence.
But in practice, if you reduce the distances between crankshaft and crankcase walls to less than 1 mm, the viscous friction of the mixture between the surfaces really costs power at high rpm. And if you make the clearances so tight that lubricating oil can no longer reach the big-end and crankshaft bearings, it will also cost engines
Another negative aspect: any volume with a narrow 'entrance' between the crankshaft and crankcase surfaces acts as an hydraulic damper on the Helmholtz-resonance in the crankcase.
Aprilia has avoided this by making the space between the crank webs as wide as the big-end bearing. As a result the crankcase volume of the 125 cc RSA engine at TDC is about 650 cc, so the exhaust pipe really has some volume to breathe from.
So much for the fairy tale of high crankcase compression
There might be more on this subject over there, will look around a bit more, if I find more I'll add it to this post.

[wobbly]

Jan stated that they had flow bench tested the RSW setup, and the rod moving past the inlet port had a big detrimental effect.
That prompted the beginnings of the RSA project at Derbi.
Having the carb hanging off the side of the RSW wasnt an issue as far as I know, it was enclosed in an air box, and it has been reported that
due to the required engine position change ( forced by the front pipe exit ) the RSW had better front end feedback than the RSA ,from more forward
weight bias.
Thus though the engine was quicker, alot of riders preferred the RSWs handling.

[HPbyGD]

Hi Guys
It was one of those projects where the guy came to me wanting to put a big bore job on his stock barrels. My thinking was that a lot of the big bore kits I have seen end up not making much of an improvement in the peak horsepower without LOTS of work. I started looking around for some cylinders to use that were already a bigger bore. That is when I found the DT 200 cylinders and after looking at one I thought that I could get two of them on the TZR 250 lower end. I would have liked to use WR 200 cylinders with the triple exhaust ports but they are a lot harder to find. The crank was stroked to 56 mm and 110 mm were installed. I did some dyno testing with a DT 200 lower end and was able to get 40 horsepower and a nice spread of power with the power valve. I know that the stroke on the DT was 1 mm longer but I thought it would give me at least a good indication of what the twin would be like. It wasn't to far off even though the guy didn't want to have me build a set of pipes like the one I used on the dyno and he decided to use the Jolly Motos that he all ready had. I didn't do much porting on the cylinder just a good clean up. The reed valves are for a Blaster and the carbs are 34 mm flat sides. I made a head for the DT that uses replaceable combustion chamber inserts. When I built the twin I made a head for it also. Makes it easy to try different combustion chambers or repair it if there is something damaged. I order to get the cylinders to fit on the lower end I had to cut the sides of the cylinder and then weld up the holes that appeared. Linking the power valves together took me a while to figure out. What I ended up doing was making a piece that fit into each end of the power valves and making a stud that went all the way through both power valves to hold every thing together. I made the stud out of drill rod and so far it has held up fine. That is most of the info and if you have any questions let me know and I will try and answer them. One other thing that I forgot to mentioned is that I have actually built two motor that were kind of similar. The other one the guy wanted to use big bore Athena TZR 125 cylinders. The guy went through some teething problems with the plating on the Athena cylinders. I don't think that the guy with the Athena cylinders ever pu tit on a dyno that I know of. Both of the motors used a Zeel ignitions.

Gary :yes:





So Gary can you give us some details regarding the engine as the post i quoted was rather thin.
like the stroke for instance.

[husaberg]

Hi Guys
It was one of those projects where the guy came to me wanting to put a big bore job on his stock barrels. My thinking was that a lot of the big bore kits I have seen end up not making much of an improvement in the peak horsepower without LOTS of work. I started looking around for some cylinders to use that were already a bigger bore. That is when I found the DT 200 cylinders and after looking at one I thought that I could get two of them on the TZR 250 lower end. I would have liked to use WR 200 cylinders with the triple exhaust ports but they are a lot harder to find. The crank was stroked to 56 mm and 110 mm were installed. I did some dyno testing with a DT 200 lower end and was able to get 40 horsepower and a nice spread of power with the power valve. I know that the stroke on the DT was 1 mm longer but I thought it would give me at least a good indication of what the twin would be like. It wasn't to far off even though the guy didn't want to have me build a set of pipes like the one I used on the dyno and he decided to use the Jolly Motos that he all ready had. I didn't do much porting on the cylinder just a good clean up. The reed valves are for a Blaster and the carbs are 34 mm flat sides. I made a head for the DT that uses replaceable combustion chamber inserts. When I built the twin I made a head for it also. Makes it easy to try different combustion chambers or repair it if there is something damaged. I order to get the cylinders to fit on the lower end I had to cut the sides of the cylinder and then weld up the holes that appeared. Linking the power valves together took me a while to figure out. What I ended up doing was making a piece that fit into each end of the power valves and making a stud that went all the way through both power valves to hold every thing together. I made the stud out of drill rod and so far it has held up fine. That is most of the info and if you have any questions let me know and I will try and answer them. One other thing that I forgot to mentioned is that I have actually built two motor that were kind of similar. The other one the guy wanted to use big bore Athena TZR 125 cylinders. The guy went through some teething problems with the plating on the Athena cylinders. I don't think that the guy with the Athena cylinders ever pu tit on a dyno that I know of. Both of the motors used a Zeel ignitions.

Gary :yes:

Thanks for that Gary.
So you would consider 56mm the limit for the stock TZR250 crank.
I also noticed there was some welding on the crankcases was this just to blend on the transfers or is the stud spacing different between the DT/WR200 and the TZR250.
Also if you know are the cranks similar to the RZ design or totally different.
Sorry for the thousand questions as i am not that familiar with the Yamaha's.
Actually i can't recall seeing a DT200 can remember the WR200 being around but they weren't that common either that i recall.



PS, that port layout is from a 6.6cc RC pylon racing engine, or at least the picture of the cylinder. yes it was whoops:whistle:


Jan stated that they had flow bench tested the RSW setup, and the rod moving past the inlet port had a big detrimental effect.
That prompted the beginnings of the RSA project at Derbi.
Having the carb hanging off the side of the RSW wasnt an issue as far as I know, it was enclosed in an air box, and it has been reported that
due to the required engine position change ( forced by the front pipe exit ) the RSW had better front end feedback than the RSA ,from more forward
weight bias.
Thus though the engine was quicker, alot of riders preferred the RSWs handling.

OK hadn't actually considered the flat vs Narrow side of rod but i was meaning more to narrow the motor to reduce overall width of motor to gain smaller frontal area and possibly larger or less flattened air box design.
Yeah i had picked up on the handling also the exhaust i guess would have been more convoluted design as well rather than a straight rear exit.

ok i must have missed this...




So, Jan Thiel gave his ok. A few pics I found interesting:
"With my friend GJ Rigter at the Aprilia flowbench. The tool in my hand is for flowing the transfers. We flowed them with the piston in 4 different positions."
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/s720x720/429839_2700198193434_1511052910_31819441_137903243 6_n.jpg


"The front half of an Aprilia crankcase. The crankshaft could be fixed in various positions by a springloaded ball. We used this for flowbench testing. We could see that the conrod disturbed the flow very much, so the idea of the rear inlet RSA was born!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/s720x720/429494_2685369942737_1511052910_31813005_192701034 3_n.jpg

[Bren_chch]

i've got an 84 dt200lc engine in the shed which i cant find a clutch basket for! :brick:

[husaberg]

i've got an 84 dt200lc engine in the shed which i cant find a clutch basket for! :brick:
Diferent to the TZR125 and DT125?
There is a thread where a guy is offering to sort out stuff (engines)from Thailand to send over i will Post it here.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/showthread.php/150443-2-stroke-engines-from-Thailand

Actually now you say the throttle cable on my original MB/H100 was of a DT200R? 0r similar? It had a flat slide with a similar odd long throttle cable fitting to the TZR250 carb i was using. One of the perks at the time of working at a Yam.....er NON Honda dealership guess there were lots of bits to see what fitted what.F-all road bikes though to play with just quads and Ags.
The Non Honda dealer kept a lot of 80-90's stock i can ask him as well, he lives around the corner.

[Yow Ling]

The Non Honda dealer kept a lot of 80-90's stock i can ask him as well, he lives around the corner.

Where you live, everybody lives just round the corner !

[HPbyGD]

@ Glenn

The TZR crank was just big enough to stroke it to 56 mm, The cases had to be trenched to clear the rod and there wasn't a lot of material left. The cranks is smaller than a RZ so that is the reason for the 56 mm stroke. The motor with the DT cylinders held up really well. The welding is to move the studs on the intake side of the cylinders. I built it about 5 years ago and the guy had to bore the cylinders once because we had issues with the Pro X pistons. The pistons broke at the ring land right above the wrist pin. We ended up using Weisco pistons and they held up well. I think that when the guy did track days it would keep up with most of the 600 cc diesel bikes. I never rode the bike but I thought that it must be a lot of fun to pester the 4 strokes and not tell the guys that it was 389 cc's. The only obvious clue is the billet head that I made for it. I have been using Vannik's software and it shows that there should be a good increase in power with the next generation of improvements. We will see. I wish that I had a couple of WR 200 cylinders to use for the build. If anyone has any leads for some cylinders please let me know. I don't know where the motor is that I built with the Athena cylinders as the guy sold it. Last I heard the guy that I built it for ahd got it running well but sold it to buy an other bike. After we had the Athena cylinders replated there weren't any more issues with them. Athena was less than helpful and I didn't fell that there was an advantage worth the trouble and expense of there cylinders. I would like to do something similar to a 3 XT v twin 250, but they are really rare in the US.

Thanks Gary

[husaberg]

@ Glenn

The TZR crank was just big enough to stroke it to 56 mm, The cases had to be trenched to clear the rod and there wasn't a lot of material left. The cranks is smaller than a RZ so that is the reason for the 56 mm stroke. The motor with the DT cylinders held up really well. The welding is to move the studs on the intake side of the cylinders. I built it about 5 years ago and the guy had to bore the cylinders once because we had issues with the Pro X pistons. The pistons broke at the ring land right above the wrist pin. We ended up using Weisco pistons and they held up well. I think that when the guy did track days it would keep up with most of the 600 cc diesel bikes. I never rode the bike but I thought that it must be a lot of fun to pester the 4 strokes and not tell the guys that it was 389 cc's. The only obvious clue is the billet head that I made for it. I have been using Vannik's software and it shows that there should be a good increase in power with the next generation of improvements. We will see. I wish that I had a couple of WR 200 cylinders to use for the build. If anyone has any leads for some cylinders please let me know. I don't know where the motor is that I built with the Athena cylinders as the guy sold it. Last I heard the guy that I built it for ahd got it running well but sold it to buy an other bike. After we had the Athena cylinders replated there weren't any more issues with them. Athena was less than helpful and I didn't fell that there was an advantage worth the trouble and expense of there cylinders. I would like to do something similar to a 3 XT v twin 250, but they are really rare in the US.


Thanks Gary


Plenty of 250's in NZ but mainly RGV and NSR sorry the tzr250 v twin is rearer but not unfindable. The UK may be a cheaper option or Japan as they would be much closer. All The 250 were a popular bike here as we had 250cc learner laws and open second hand imports ex Japan.
the hotspots for the Wr200 seem to be UK USA and AUST. most bits on Ebay seem to be USA no cylinder though i i guess you knew that already. the bits on EBay in the USA for them are quite dear considering.


Where you live, everybody lives just round the corner !

Okay i'll bite Mike
Where i live is has a sub tropical climate is 80% National park and the length of Hamilton to Wellington. Yet where you live is the size of a small lake and the ground stability of a ......;) but yeah 3km away is 2 streets and one road and golf course two bridges and one railway line plus the state highway crossing as well. So as i said just around the corner:whistle:

[2T Institute]

@ Glenn

The TZR crank was just big enough to stroke it to 56 mm, The cases had to be trenched to clear the rod and there wasn't a lot of material left. The cranks is smaller than a RZ so that is the reason for the 56 mm stroke. The motor with the DT cylinders held up really well. The welding is to move the studs on the intake side of the cylinders. I built it about 5 years ago and the guy had to bore the cylinders once because we had issues with the Pro X pistons. The pistons broke at the ring land right above the wrist pin. We ended up using Weisco pistons and they held up well. I think that when the guy did track days it would keep up with most of the 600 cc diesel bikes. I never rode the bike but I thought that it must be a lot of fun to pester the 4 strokes and not tell the guys that it was 389 cc's. The only obvious clue is the billet head that I made for it. I have been using Vannik's software and it shows that there should be a good increase in power with the next generation of improvements. We will see. I wish that I had a couple of WR 200 cylinders to use for the build. If anyone has any leads for some cylinders please let me know. I don't know where the motor is that I built with the Athena cylinders as the guy sold it. Last I heard the guy that I built it for ahd got it running well but sold it to buy an other bike. After we had the Athena cylinders replated there weren't any more issues with them. Athena was less than helpful and I didn't fell that there was an advantage worth the trouble and expense of there cylinders. I would like to do something similar to a 3 XT v twin 250, but they are really rare in the US.

Thanks Gary

Shit easy to put sub exhaust ports in Gary

[Grumph]

@ Glenn

I would like to do something similar to a 3 XT v twin 250, but they are really rare in the US.

Thanks Gary

A few years back when we still had an F2 class here in NZ with an upper limit of 410cc for 2 strokes i was involved on the fringes of a project to enlarge a D model V twin TZ. OE DT200 pistons in iron liners inserted into a couple of damaged TZ barrels. The 2 guys doing it knew what they were doing - one was/is a very good machinist as well as being a top rider. My involvement basically consisted of making encouraging noises....until it was done and they presented me with a pair of hydroformed pipes and asked me to tweak them to fit the bike.
It went quite well but really the only gain was significantly more torque - which on SI circuits is very useful.

Appreciate that, then, replating was not readily available and dynos likewise....

[dinamik2t]

What equipment do you guys use to open up a pair of aux exhaust ports??
I don't have any bench drill or something like that.. I rarely manage to drill both side holes at the same -symmetrical- place/height/angles into the duct.

What I do is dig an approximation of the port into the sleeve and continue about 7-8mm into the cylinder walls, using the right-angle handpiece; I then drill through the duct with a long 6mm drill -eye accurately,electric drill- until I meet the port.
Here's a few shots of results:
265907265908265911265909265912

It would be interesting to incorporate an angle-adjustable, steady drilling method, but I haven't given any thought on building something like that. It sucks when you know the proper equipment exists and because of cost/availability, you have to think of a home-made system to achieve similar results.. :angry:

[breezy]

came across this while looking for carb set up info.. its not about carbs but may be of some use to someone...i dont think ive seen it posted on here before, so i apologise in advance if it has...............http://atom007.heimat.eu/tmt/head.html

[HPbyGD]

Hi Guys

I draw the combustion chamber before I machine it. The Cad program that I have will tell me what the volume it is once I make a solid model. One of the things that I don't have is what the volume is of the spark plug. Does any one know what the volume would be of some of the more common spark plugs ? I ma using the NGK BR9ESC plugs in the TZR motor.

I would like to hear about how you guys are cutting aux exhaust ports ?

Thanks Gary :cool:

[2T Institute]

What equipment do you guys use to open up a pair of aux exhaust ports??
I don't have any bench drill or something like that.. I rarely manage to drill both side holes at the same -symmetrical- place/height/angles into the duct.

What I do is dig an approximation of the port into the sleeve and continue about 7-8mm into the cylinder walls, using the right-angle handpiece; I then drill through the duct with a long 6mm drill -eye accurately,electric drill- until I meet the port.
Here's a few shots of results:
265907265908265911265909265912

It would be interesting to incorporate an angle-adjustable, steady drilling method, but I haven't given any thought on building something like that. It sucks when you know the proper equipment exists and because of cost/availability, you have to think of a home-made system to achieve similar results.. :angry:

As good a method as any .;)

[wobbly]

Using a 10 plug there is 2.2 cc in the plug hole.
When drawing a chamber in CAD, with a straight line across where the threaded hole would be, you add 0.2 cc to the calculated vol.
A 9 series I would say was closer to 0.3cc.

[Kickaha]

A few years back when we still had an F2 class here in NZ with an upper limit of 410cc for 2 strokes i was involved on the fringes of a project to enlarge a D model V twin TZ. OE DT200 pistons in iron liners inserted into a couple of damaged TZ barrels. The 2 guys doing it knew what they were doing - one was/is a very good machinist as well as being a top rider. My involvement basically consisted of making encouraging noises....until it was done and they presented me with a pair of hydroformed pipes and asked me to tweak them to fit the bike.
It went quite well but really the only gain was significantly more torque - which on SI circuits is very useful.

Appreciate that, then, replating was not readily available and dynos likewise....

Mark and Brian? I've seen a couple of barrels in a guys shed that fit that description