For Hitcher

[KATWYN]

it's not expected of them professionally, and it's not holding them back from being successful on two wheels.

...or from earning huge incomes.

Theres plenty who are dyslexic, illiterate whatever one wants to call it
who are financially successful - as someone mentioned earlier education
matches income......does it?

[MSTRS:Me]

In the case of KB, I think it's unrealistic to expect members to have great spelling and punctuation. After all, some people genuinely can't write, it's not expected of them professionally, and it's not holding them back from being successful on two wheels.

I don't think it's unrealistic to have an expectation of a reasonable standard of communication from anyone who is essentially an adult. In saying that, I realise that some do have literacy problems - that means that while they probably were a failure at school in the academic sense, it does not mean that they are a failure in life. However, I get annoyed when there is no attempt to take on board the free lessons, instead defending their right to be illiterate and then telling the rest of us that it is our problem that we can't understand their scratchings.

[terbang]

However, if you can't communicate, you can't progress.

Hmm true, but you miss a very vital point about communication. It requires both sides, the sender and the reciever, to be proficient. Whether it be verbal, written or whatever, if those that the message is intended for have poor listening or reading skills then communication has failed.

Have to go along with the stranger here, I used to also think english was a waste of time until I got into a technical subject.

Kamu wanita gila, mit bose schreiben being a mixture of two other languages is absolutely useless here on a kiwi biker forum as I suspect I won't have tuned into many willing recievers. Write for your audience as well.

[The Stranger:Me]

Hmm true, but you miss a very vital point about communication. It requires both sides, the sender and the reciever, to be proficient. Whether it be verbal, written or whatever, if those that the message is intended for have poor listening or reading skills then communication has failed.

That is so true, and exactly the reason why we do have conventions.
Also, as the sender or initiator you could help the situation by making your best effort so as to ease the job of the receiver should they have poor listening or reading skills. Pointless compounding the problem is it?

[MotoGirl]

I don't think it's unrealistic to have an expectation of a reasonable standard of communication from anyone who is essentially an adult.

Sorry, I should've made myself clearer. A lot of people on KB have average communication skills. I was trying to say it's unrealistic to expect them to have great communication skills.

However, I get annoyed when there is no attempt to take on board the free lessons, instead defending their right to be illiterate and then telling the rest of us that it is our problem that we can't understand their scratchings.

It's a classic case of leading a horse to water and expecting the horse to drink it. If we tried teaching KB members how to correctly spell motorcycle-related words, I suspect there'd be greater uptake in what we have to teach them. Unfortunately, for most KB members, learning to spell and use punctuation correctly is not a priority.

[MSTRS:Me]

Sorry, I should've made myself clearer. A lot of people on KB have average communication skills. I was trying to say it's unrealistic to expect them to have great communication skills.

Average is fine. And most here are just that. Just like society. It is the old 80/20 law in action. Except in this instance it is probably more correct to describe it as 10/80/10...
In threads like this one (has become) the upper 10 percentile are attempting to show the lower 10 percentile that communication is more than a string of words with no grammar/spelling rules applied.
Apologies if this sounds holier-than-thou

[MotoGirl]

In threads like this one (has become) the upper 10 percentile are attempting to show the lower 10 percentile that communication is more than a string of words with no grammar/spelling rules applied.

What's funny is that the people contributing to this thread are not the ones who need convincing! The others probably won't even open it because they don't care

[MSTRS:Me]

What's funny is that the people contributing to this thread are not the ones who need convincing! The others probably won't even open it because they don't care

Their loss. And it gives 'us' something to feel superior about....

[jonbuoy]

Their loss. And it gives 'us' something to feel superior about....

Oh dear

[KATWYN]

What's funny is that the people contributing to this thread are not the ones who need convincing! The others probably won't even open it because they don't care

Eggzachery. Its a great thought provoking thread.

[90s]

Does that go for verbal communication as well? Theres always two or more perspectives . When there is a misunderstanding, or when information can't be understood, who is at fault? Speaker or listener? Writer or reader?

In the case of writing, the reader is never at fault. You should write as so that you cannot be misunderstood or misinterpreted. (You can attempt to mislead a reader, but that is a different case.)

For verbal communication - well there's a whole lot of issues here. Tone, phrasing, usually body language, prior relationships (ie. when me and the missues argue about the dishes only one thing is clear to me - its not about the fricken dishes).

I would not pick up anyone on their writing skills here on KB though unless I could not follow their point. I am marking currently 100+ postgrad exams and do not wish to mark people here. But the exams are the same as here - if you cannot communicate in a written form clearly you are going to be penalised, misunderstood or ignored.

My sister is extremely clever. She did very badly at school and at Uni. I did not. She can argue very well verbally, but not write very clearly. We both have low-grade dsylexia. It can really hold you back, everything else equal.

There's nothing better than miscommunication though. If not I would not do much industrial training, where an excellent earlier post identified that the key to success (or being recognised as highly performing) in any field is being able to communicate. Once I saw a French friend lose and argument where he had done a 'favour' for his kids, who would have rather he left alone.

"When you've got a gift horse, don't brush its teeth" was the clincher.

[KATWYN]

I am marking currently 100+ postgrad exams and do not wish to mark people here. But the exams are the same as here - if you cannot communicate in a written form clearly you are going to be penalised, misunderstood or ignored.

.

I am an undergrad and sat a darn hard 3rd year paper exam yesterday. Including writing two essays (45 minutes each) I was writing like the clappers and only just managed to speed read through them at the end...i'm unsure about how they will look to the poor marker who has to mark them, but (as a student) I find it a bit concerning that if I haven't been perfect in my grammer, punctuation, spelling and style in the time frame I had that my efforts may be ignored!

[MotoGirl]

I am an undergrad and sat a darn hard 3rd year paper exam yesterday. Including writing two essays (45 minutes each) I was writing like the clappers and only just managed to speed read through them at the end...i'm unsure about how they will look to the poor marker who has to mark them, but (as a student) I find it a bit concerning that if I haven't been perfect in my grammer, punctuation, spelling and style in the time frame I had that my efforts may be ignored!

And then some of us are silly enough to get a job that involves writing full time. It's like doing homework 40 hours a week.

[90s]

I am an undergrad and sat a darn hard 3rd year paper exam yesterday. Including writing two essays (45 minutes each) I was writing like the clappers and only just managed to speed read through them at the end...i'm unsure about how they will look to the poor marker who has to mark them, but (as a student) I find it a bit concerning that if I haven't been perfect in my grammer, punctuation, spelling and style in the time frame I had that my efforts may be ignored!

Case in point. I did not write that if students "haven't been perfect in ... grammer, punctuation, spelling and style in the time frame ... efforts may be ignored!"

I wrote if you cannot communicate in writing then it will cause you problems. Grammar, spelling and punctuation aid communication, but you can convey an answer effectively with bullet points, txt language, or with even poor spelling. The problem in not the marker taking away points pedantically; it is a students potential inability to express themselves clearly. With students or in professional arbitration a constant complaint is "what I meant was ..." which bears no relation what the person actually wrote.

If you are not good at grammar etc. write simply and clearly (I am not saying that you are not! But that there are many ways to communicate in a written form without being able to write highly technical or grammatical English)

[KATWYN]

Case in point. I did not write that if students "haven't been perfect in ... grammer, punctuation, spelling and style in the time frame ... efforts may be ignored!"

write simply and clearly (I am not saying that you are not! But that there are many ways to communicate in a written form without being able to write highly technical or grammatical English)

cheers, yes I jumped to a defence a bit too soon, sorry! Straight away perfection came to my mind in what I think is expected of exam essay performance (and thats because thats what I expect from myself!)

And your latter comment puts my mind at ease.