The firearm thread

[Swoop]

...a total cock-up by police and to a lesser extent Aramoana (Though peaceniks would screamed "Breach of civil rights" had the cops randomly raided Grays house because he was acting 'funny' I bet)

Gray presented a firearm at the local shop prior to his rampage. Failing to act on this is similar to the UK police failing to act on the Dunblane incident, since there was ample evidence of mental instability in that dickhead prior to his actions.

Molenaar. A person who fails to renew or hand in their licence would surely appear as a "person of interest" on the plod computer system... or are we still all waiting for INCIS to go online?

[geoffm]

When did he loose his license?



Molenaar was a registered gun owner and collector, but failed to renew his licence in 2002.

oh ten minutes.....

And was a known drug dealer, had undesirable friends and had (IIRC) previous form. I am sure he would have been considered a "fit and proper person" for a firearms license.
Crims don't get gun licenses - it attracts to much of the wrong sort of attention, and they wouldn't get them anyway since 8-% have previous convictions...
Geoff

[ouch]

And was a known drug dealer, had undesirable friends and had (IIRC) previous form. I am sure he would have been considered a "fit and proper person" for a firearms license.
Crims don't get gun licenses - it attracts to much of the wrong sort of attention, and they wouldn't get them anyway since 8-% have previous convictions...
Geoff

This is information from Rimfirecentral from another Kiwi:

Quote:
In the Molenaar case he did apply to renew his licence but one of his referees which I believe was his mother told the firearms officer that she did not believe her son was a fit and proper person to have firearms so his application was rejected. The police then did nothing to check on the wherabouts of his firearms or to secure those firearms after receiving several reports of his irrational behaviour before the seige took place.
We have two problems caused by different Government departments, on one hand we have the police sitting back and doing nothing and on the other hand me have the mental health authorities wanting to push these nutters back out on the streets to live in the community.
End quote.

Addition from Ouch, did he not have a C CAT/E CAT which requires weapons to be individually regoed?

In this case Police knew he was a "nutter" and that he did have a number of firearms, and NO I would say bloody good job if they did kick his door in to get them.

Come On the local Arms Officer MUST have known?

Was there not "red flag" come up on his computer or the attending Officers pre briefing?

Give the Police the manpower and resources to hunt up these what 50,000 outstanding licencing maybe contacting the original referees first?

BTW: Whenever I refer to "Police" in these cases I refer to the "bosses" not Front Line Police. Scummie I hope you and others don't think my criticism is referring to you guys/gals.

[jono035]

Addition from Ouch, did he not have a C CAT/E CAT which requires weapons to be individually regoed?

Did those licenses require registration before the changes were implemented that required him to re-apply?

Interesting info about him applying and being denied... You'd think that would be worth a follow up, certainly...

[scumdog]

End quote.

Addition from Ouch, did he not have a C CAT/E CAT which requires weapons to be individually regoed?

In this case Police knew he was a "nutter" and that he did have a number of firearms, and NO I would say bloody good job if they did kick his door in to get them.

Come On the local Arms Officer MUST have known?

So he had a cat 'C' & 'E' and it lapsed.

Proved he had sold his registrable firearms.
That's all the local and national arms office would have had a record of.

And the cops still came around, kicked the door in and searched his house.

Sheesh, would the media, civil liberty groups et al ever have a field day with that!!!

(And KB would be worse.)

Sorry guys, 9 years of Labour and too much 'personal freedom' have given us scenarios like Molenaars.

[ouch]

So he had a cat 'C' & 'E' and it lapsed.

...and it lapsed and he reapplied and was regected as not a fit and propper person to have it.

Proved he had sold his registrable firearms.
That's all the local and national arms office would have had a record of.

Yes they would have had a record of every C and E Cat he brought and every one he sold as you need Police permission to buy each of these weapons.

And the cops still came around, kicked the door in and searched his house.

If indeed he was judged Unfit and they had been told by that person that he still had guns and/or the Police had a record of his C and E that had not been sold...

Sheesh, would the media, civil liberty groups et al ever have a field day with that!!!

...then the media et al would be wrong to try, the warning signs were there and a armed raid by Police would be the safest option for all conserned in this case with those conditions meet. Heck it is so upsetting to hear about a Policeman getting killed I really want Police to be as safe as possible, ffs they are only doing their job. If this is what happened it was needless.

(And KB would be worse.)

is that possible?

Sorry guys, 9 years of Labour and too much 'personal freedom' have given us scenarios like Molenaars.

To me it seems that real issues are diverted away from public attention, is this E Cat change going to stop this happening again?

Or maybe, just maybe giving the Police the resorces they need to do their job as effectivly as possibe you know, get to the root of the problem (all those whos licences has expired)? Like the speeding issue insted of the lack of driver skills and darn right careless driving?

[ouch]

BTW lots of good ideas for letters in this thread:

http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz/forum/YaB...1244753410/240

Gun City is still selling these now E Cats as A Cat on Trademe and their site.
Trademe are not pulling these auctions, although a private seller did remove two SKS Dragunov rifles when the Q & A said about the changes.

Going to the local AO tomorrow to ask about a Dragunov for my 10/22 with printed Trademe adds with the "they are legal" answers from the sellers to see if I can get clarification as to the Arms Act then to the next town on Thursday to ask there and at the local hunting stores.

[ouch]

I guess y'all would be happy with cops searching your house for guns ten minutes after your firearms licence expired eh?

No but I would expect contact from the Police if I had not responded by a month after it had expired telling me to get my arse to the AO and get it sorted NOW.

IF I had been found to be not a fit and proper person and had my FAL revoked/not renewed I would expect them to be there ASAP and search my house for firearms. I thought that was the idea? I honestly thought that is what they did!

[ManDownUnder]

Yes they would have had a record of every C and E Cat he brought and every one he sold as you need Police permission to buy each of these weapons.

(you forgot the last word... here... let me help) "legally"

is that possible?

Seriously... yes. A key difference is that the Police do a little information gathering before they speak

[Mr Merde]

Please excuse my scepticism but I have seen alll this rhetoric before.

As a shooter in the UK I live through the aftermath of both the Hungerford and Dunblane events.

We as shooters all said pretty much the same things that you lot here are saying.

Too late we organised but even then it was into small groups that supported our particular branch of the sport.

We lost.

600,000 pistol owners lost all their firearms.
Massive restrictions upon what we could and could not own after that.

I was one of the people who picketed the Commonwealth Games pistol venue at Bisley. The government just brought all the VIP's in via a side gate and avoided all embarrasment.

There is an agenda in nthis world to disarm the ge3neral population. This is under the umbrella of the United Nations and NZ is a signatory to this.

Hence the way they were going to destroy all the cadet rifles and the bolt action police rifles rather than sell them off to legitimate shooters in NZ.

What is needed is ONE strong association that can weild some real political muscle. SImilar to the power that the NRA in the US has. We have to make our selves heard and feared b y the politicos as they only look to the next vote. Hit them where it hurts, in the election.

Make them realise that alienating 200,000 firearms holders can weild a large vote.

Will this happen.

I doubt it. We are too compliant in this country. Too conditioned to accept what is done to us in the name of what is good for the greater population.

I would love to be proved wrong but I cant see this happening.

We are cattle to be driven.

Chris

[Swoop]

Gun City is still selling these now E Cats as A Cat on Trademe and their site.
Trademe are not pulling these auctions, although a private seller did remove two SKS Dragunov rifles when the Q & A said about the changes.

Going to the local AO tomorrow to ask about a Dragunov for my 10/22 with printed Trademe adds with the "they are legal" answers from the sellers to see if I can get clarification as to the Arms Act then to the next town on Thursday to ask there and at the local hunting stores.

The arms act says "free standing pistol grip" (iirc).
I repeat... "The arms act".

The police cannot change the wording or interpretation until the law has been changed.

They can say what is imported into the country via the import permit process though.

[Mr Merde]

The arms act says "free standing pistol grip" (iirc).
I repeat... "The arms act".

The police cannot change the wording or interpretation until the law has been changed.

They can say what is imported into the country via the import permit process though.

They may not be allowed to do this constitutionally but they put it down to a matter of interpretation.

Try and fight them in a court of law over this and they will outspend you.

eg The law on barrel length for pistols states that you are allowed any length that is used in a main competition.

Try and get a pistol with a 3 " barrel. Not allowed. Police will not allow anything less than 4". (110mm)

My sport is CAS. In such you can use a revolver with a barrel of a minimum of 3 1/2 inches. Try and buy one with any licence other than a C cat.

Chris

[Mr Merde]

Photo of my new assault rifle. 1883-4 Springfield Trapdoor Cadet in 45-70.

That was it was originally designed for so I assume it could in the broadest sense still be classified as.

Ignore the chubby one holding said assault rifle. My mate Mark Jackson who is bringing the rifle to me in Sept from UK.

[Indiana_Jones]

Ignore the chubby one holding said assault rifle. My mate Mark Jackson who is bringing the rifle to me in Sept from UK.

I was gonna say Chris, really letting yourself go havn't we?!

looks nice mate

....The rifle that is

-Indy

[sAsLEX]

BTW lots of good ideas for letters in this thread:

http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz/forum/YaB...1244753410/240

Gun City is still selling these now E Cats as A Cat on Trademe and their site.
Trademe are not pulling these auctions, although a private seller did remove two SKS Dragunov rifles when the Q & A said about the changes.

Going to the local AO tomorrow to ask about a Dragunov for my 10/22 with printed Trademe adds with the "they are legal" answers from the sellers to see if I can get clarification as to the Arms Act then to the next town on Thursday to ask there and at the local hunting stores.

Thumbhole 10/22s are now E cat, no question over your Dragunov, I wouldn't be letting anyone know I had one....


My local hunting store Wills is rather clear. Anything with something even remotely more than a tiny thumb hole is a MSSA, 10/22 included!

The arms act says "free standing pistol grip" (iirc).
I repeat... "The arms act".

The police cannot change the wording or interpretation until the law has been changed.

But stores won't go against the Superintendent as that will only make their life difficult.