Flags, colours, and their use

[MSTRS:Me]

How will a new rider be able to make a call as to where a safe place is ? .

That's where the marshals come in. To direct, make radio calls, etc

[scracha]

I have seen a bike pull over in an incident only to fall on the grass and sending the bike back onto the track and taking a fellow rider out in a very big way.
there is no real answer i appreciate, but limitation of possibles is the key .

Was he retarded or something? I mean...did he see the black flag and ride on the grass at 200kmph? A safe place is miles off the racing line, away from corner exits and preferably behind a big tyre wall or summit.

Greyer area is whether to pick your bike up after a crash when the yellow flaggies are out.

Retards shouldn't race...end of.

[roadracingoldfart]

Was he retarded or something? I mean...did he see the black flag and ride on the grass at 200kmph? A safe place is miles off the racing line, away from corner exits and preferably behind a big tyre wall or summit.

Greyer area is whether to pick your bike up after a crash when the yellow flaggies are out.

Retards shouldn't race...end of.

Noooo .
Its quite simple really , the rider (who later became a Nat class champ for the second time) pulled off the track at a medium pace , aware he had a machine problem but didnt know what it was (this was pre flag warning days).
He then had brake malfunction on the grass (which was a bit damp) and then collected me after going across the infield grass riderless (he was flicked off the bike).
I know the chances of it re-occuring are remote but it is still possible.
If i wasnt in the way the bike had the potential to reach the back straight so i saved a high speed crash i guess.

Sometimes an issue with the bike is unknown so when a flag is presented and then you pull off the track you may create a further issue worse than the original.
If this rider had been on the blacktop when his brakes malfunctioned he would have been able to control the bike , without question.

He was far from a retard as his credentials attest to.
2 times NZ champ and if memory serves correct, in 3 classes.

Paul.

[scracha]

If this rider had been on the blacktop when his brakes malfunctioned he would have been able to control the bike , without question.

Could've, sould've, would've. As you've said, slim odds of that particular event happening again. You're also assuming it would have been ok had he been on the black stuff. Suppose he'd been up another rider's chuff or found out his brakes were malfunctioning going into a hairpin or suppose his brakes suddenly locked up on a long fast sweeper?

It's surely a numbers game and the numbers would normally say, get the fucked bike off the track ASAP.

[Skunk]

Could've, sould've, would've. As you've said, slim odds of that particular event happening again. You're also assuming it would have been ok had he been on the black stuff. Suppose he'd been up another rider's chuff or found out his brakes were malfunctioning going into a hairpin or suppose his brakes suddenly locked up on a long fast sweeper?

It's surely a numbers game and the numbers would normally say, get the fucked bike off the track ASAP.

Exactly! Bling for you!

As you say - the numbers game says this is the safe option.

[FROSTY:Me]

Skunk Theres a phrase comes to mind--Theres nothing new under the sun. I'm trying very very hard here not to do the whole I know better than you because Ive been around racetracks for x million years bit mainly because it pisses people off.
BUT I would suggest strongly that you sit back and listen to what people like Billy,roadraceingoldfart,codgyoldracer and others have to say. These guys have been involved in the sport for a very long time and have seen what happens when it goes to shit.
I'd also suggest that we in New Zealand have a horrible habit o reinventing the wheel. Have a look at what works at say donnington,laguana seca or even as close as sydney and see what system has been developed. There is a commonality of rules/flags.

Again I genuinely believe that your perfect "test dummies" should be 10 year old boys at an indoor go cart track.
Fill the litle buggers up with cokeacola and send em out karting. See what flags they see and understand.

[Tony.OK]

Whatever you decide...................please please don't introduce a safety car


I watched what happened with the new rules in the AMA at Laguna Seca, now that WAS dangerous!!

[Skunk]

Skunk Theres a phrase comes to mind--Theres nothing new under the sun. I'm trying very very hard here not to do the whole I know better than you because Ive been around racetracks for x million years bit mainly because it pisses people off.
BUT I would suggest strongly that you sit back and listen to what people like Billy,roadraceingoldfart,codgyoldracer and others have to say. These guys have been involved in the sport for a very long time and have seen what happens when it goes to shit.
I'd also suggest that we in New Zealand have a horrible habit o reinventing the wheel. Have a look at what works at say donnington,laguana seca or even as close as sydney and see what system has been developed. There is a commonality of rules/flags.

Again I genuinely believe that your perfect "test dummies" should be 10 year old boys at an indoor go cart track.
Fill the litle buggers up with cokeacola and send em out karting. See what flags they see and understand.

So you're saying it's better to have oil on the track rather than a bike parked against the tyres? I really don't understand that logic.
We had (so far this season), I think, 7 crashes due to oil on the track and none from bikes pulling off. But oil is still safer?
Please explain your logic. Tell me how MNZ is so wrong to have a black flag for 'naughty boys' (go to the pits) and black/orange flag (your bike is a danger to you or others - stop now)...
Seriously - I can't see it.

You are supposed to know the flags. That is a worldwide commonality. I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel - I'm trying to get the riders to understand the existing rules. People have died in recent years here in NZ because the riders don't know the rules or think they know better.

[FROSTY:Me]

So you're saying it's better to have oil on the track rather than a bike parked against the tyres? I really don't understand that logic.
.

where did I say that??

[Kickaha]

I think, 7 crashes due to oil on the track .

I blame the Sidecars

[Skunk]

where did I say that??

That's what I read from the response of yours I quoted. I don't understand that logic so I'll like to get it straight.

Skunk Theres a phrase comes to mind--Theres nothing new under the sun. I'm trying very very hard here not to do the whole I know better than you because Ive been around racetracks for x million years bit mainly because it pisses people off.
BUT I would suggest strongly that you sit back and listen to what people like Billy,roadraceingoldfart,codgyoldracer and others have to say. These guys have been involved in the sport for a very long time and have seen what happens when it goes to shit.
I'd also suggest that we in New Zealand have a horrible habit o reinventing the wheel. Have a look at what works at say donnington,laguana seca or even as close as sydney and see what system has been developed. There is a commonality of rules/flags.

I read from that that I'm trying to invent something new (I'm not) or that bikes not at race pace or with problems should be sent to the pits not off the track (racingoldfart's post) and anything else is wrong (from you telling me to listen to you, racingoldfart and billy).

I thought was that this can't be right - and so I requested that you clear up what you are saying (because that advice sounds pretty dumb to me; so you must mean something else. Maybe you just quoted the wrong thing in your initial reply - I don't know...

[Billy]

People have died in recent years here in NZ because the riders don't know the rules or think they know better.

Brave statement!!What do you base that on ???

[FROSTY:Me]

That's what I read from the response of yours I quoted. I don't understand that logic so I'll like to get it straight.
I read from that that I'm trying to invent something new (I'm not) or that bikes not at race pace or with problems should be sent to the pits not off the track (racingoldfart's post) and anything else is wrong (from you telling me to listen to you, racingoldfart and billy).

I thought was that this can't be right - and so I requested that you clear up what you are saying (because that advice sounds pretty dumb to me; so you must mean something else. Maybe you just quoted the wrong thing in your initial reply - I don't know...

Id suspect that the guys you refer to can give valid reasons for their arguments based on their experiences and the things they have seen in the past.
Think about it -would they argue with sutch passion if they diddn't feel they were right and more importantly that what they feel is true is the safest option?
Maybee they are wrong. But concider the combined years of experience they have before assuming they are.
I must say that in my opinion the current rule book has become seriously complicated and needs an application of the KISS principle.

[Skunk]

Brave statement!!What do you base that on ???

A well known WMCC ex prez is one. Under MNZ rules the other bike involved would have parked off the track - not been trying to make it to the pits.

Maybee they are wrong. But concider the combined years of experience they have before assuming they are.
I must say that in my opinion the current rule book has become seriously complicated and needs an application of the KISS principle.

I haven't "assumed" they are wrong. I just completely fail to see how a bike leaking oil, having parts falling off or moving much slower than all the others is safe for all concerned - rather than pulling off the track "as soon as it is safe to do so".

I'm now getting a little pissed at repeatedly being told "I've been around longer so I know must better" with nothing to back it up. I've asked for clarification and you've just told me they have been around longer. I don't care. I care about the racers safety. I don't what some numbnuts-old-fart-I've-been-doing-this-for-years doing whatever he pleases when he's putting other people at risk.

Billy has had several goes at me for not following the MNZ rulebook to the letter, now you're telling me I shouldn't and it's complex.

FFS.

[roadracingoldfart]

A well known WMCC ex prez is one. Under MNZ rules the other bike involved would have parked off the track - not been trying to make it to the pits.

I haven't "assumed" they are wrong. I just completely fail to see how a bike leaking oil, having parts falling off or moving much slower than all the others is safe for all concerned - rather than pulling off the track "as soon as it is safe to do so".

I'm now getting a little pissed at repeatedly being told "I've been around longer so I know must better" with nothing to back it up. I've asked for clarification and you've just told me they have been around longer. I don't care. I care about the racers safety. I don't what some numbnuts-old-fart-I've-been-doing-this-for-years doing whatever he pleases when he's putting other people at risk.

Billy has had several goes at me for not following the MNZ rulebook to the letter, now you're telling me I shouldn't and it's complex.

FFS.

If your referring to the numbnuts as a referance to me young man , i would cease and desist very fast.
Whille i am at it and you seem a bit rattled , heres what i think.
You burst onto the scene from some hole in the ground , make alot of noise and piss alot of people off to no end.
Your a tree climbing monkey in a de-forrestation zone buddy and i dont see a future for noisy , unqualified oxygen wasters like yourself in this scene.
Try to fit a mouthgaurd for a change and keep your antics to the board room . I dont like (and nore do many i know) liars and blam shifters so shussh up for a change.
By the way , im on the ferry tomorrow morn so i wont see your tirade for 2 weeks , but im sure it will be here to read when i get home.

PS; i have enough friends so i will get over it .

Ahhhh thats better.

Paul.