Warning: gravel, turkeys & cyclists!

**Kickaha** · 14th October 2009, 08:20

Originally Posted by vtec

If anyone can calculate the inconvenience caused by these "gaggles of bicycles" that are seemingly everywhere and making road use intolerable. Give me details of how much damage they've caused to you, and how much extra time in traffic they create for you,.

Over my lifetime so far? well lets see, hmmmmmm I'd say none

**modboy** · 14th October 2009, 08:40

Here is the issue. Car drivers don't like having to slow down in order to safely pass cyclists (who are quite within their rights to ride 2 abreast) because it interferes with their god given driving pleasure.

The irony is that round town a bike will almost always beat a car anywhere.

I've had cars pull up behind me (solitary me on my pushbike) hit the horn and hold it down for several seconds (indicating extreme frustration) on congested inner city multilane roads when they can see an open gap ahead of me because, I've slowed down their A-B trip by a several milliseconds, only for me to pull up next to them at the next set of lights.

All this indicates is an extreme lack of patience on the car drivers part - and why the fuck should I have to tolerate that.

As I've said before the problem is that many car drivers have been led to believe they have a fucking birth-right to drive unimpeded by anything else (including other car drivers) on every road in NZ. They all need to collectively let this delusion go and realise that just because you are not travelling at the speed limit this doesn't mean you do not have a right to use the road.

**vtec** · 14th October 2009, 08:47

Originally Posted by RavenR44

No, because it's not about safety; it's seemingly about fantasizing that they're on the Tour de Farmacy and the cyclists apparently don't feel any obligation to "safely" overtake crawling cages.
Bingo, same attitude that the cars have towards bicycle's however, when you look at who is actually facing any danger to their health it sure as hell ain't car drivers, so what's the beef.

It's still a dedicated cycle lane and there is absolutely no rule that dictates you have to travel "at 40kph along the footpath shared with pedestrians, rollerbladers, prams, lamp posts, signage and other cyclists coming the other way at speeds of up to 55kph". Again, the Lance Armstrong Wannabe mentality at play. You can choose to use that cycle lane and leave the fantasy for the weekend, or insist on your right to ride at high speed amongst the traffic. Your call, but don't complain about the lack of safety when you have valid alternatives.

Maybe because they want to maintain their speed thus simulating the riding conditions that are sustained in a race, you want to be competitive then you have to train 7 days a week, (plenty of these lycra freaks do race) or maybe it's because they want to get home in half the time it would take if they are doing between 10-20kph on the footpath, so 1 hour instead of 2 as an example

Because people like me need to use our cars for our income and it's the most direct route into the city from where we live, perhaps? No matter that it's scenic, it's a road. If you want to advance your elite, minority cyclist needs, petition the government for a better dedicated cycle lane, because, guess what, ours is a motorised society and it won't be changing while you or I still draw breath.

Okay, I'll tell all the people that ride bicycles to go drive their cars (most of them would own cars aswell) and we'll see what happens to traffic flow along Tamaki drive. And NZ will sink yet further down an oil debt whole into poverty. I don't even believe in AGW, or the negative effects of CO2 proposed by some scientists but I well and truly understand the negative economic effect oil and car consumption has on NZ. In the early 1900's NZ had the highest GDP per capita in the world, now it has sunk to the borders of poverty. I can't believe some of you people don't understand the favour they are doing you by getting their cars off the road. The mind boggles.

Just a heads-up for you - I don't have a beef with cyclists using Tamaki Drive. I expect people who are at a huge safety disadvantage to use some common sense and put themselves at less risk. You feel that's not necessary or desirable? Fine.

I hope that other road users will show me the same courtesy I show them. I'm constantly disappointed and cyclists are no exception. You feel that your rights to be there override courtesy? Fine.

So what's it to you if their behaviour appears to be dangerous to someone who's obviously never commuted on a bicycle, they are not impacting on your safety at all, unless you choose to take unsafe actions to avoid them without doing so safely (repeated for effect), the courtesy you speak of is rarely offered to bicycles, and yet I still don't understand how a bicycle which doesn't take up any room or slow you significantly is not showing you courtesy? Is the courtesy you demand just a built up focus in your mind on the seeming misbehaviours of this group of road users? Are they a danger? do they negatively (or positively) affect your commute time? I think you'll find if you ask yourself these questions and answer them honestly you might notice that the type of vehicle that fails these questions are generally cars, busses and trucks, and the odd motorcycle. you are feeling rorted because bicycles don't stick to all the rules, there are lots of good reasons for this which you will only understand if you spend a couple of days cycling to your work (if you're not a tradey) and see how you feel about it. Would be better if you spent enough time to get experienced though.

The arrogant attitude of some cyclists in ignoring the road rules other road users follow is quite nicely summed up by your response above. And you wonder why people detest cyclists?

Apparently you're so immersed in your anti-car mindset that you didn't actually comprehend my post above. If you read it again, I hope you'll see that the car driver copped a heap of sarcasm as well.

And as my parting shot, I have family who engage in competitive cycling.

Andy.

I'm arrogant. Okay, so are you :P Point one dealt with.

I'm not anti car at all, I just don't like sitting in car traffic. Parting shot, bam you know people who race bicycle, wow, and you're still completely ignorant about it. I love cars, some would almost consider me a boy racer because of my modified Honda. But the difference between me and most other drivers is that I've got some PERSPECTIVE.

I'll give you a summary about why I run all the red lights I possibly can. As this is the only law that has been agreed that cyclists sometimes behave badly around.

1. When starting off a bicycle is slow to gain momentum, and car drivers are very unforgiving for this so the bicycle will often be shaved down the side just after a green and swamped and pushed too close to parked cars. If you start off early or get clear of the race of cars from the lights, you increase your safety by a large margin.
2. Maintenance of energy. Bicycles are hard work, but stop start riding is much harder and slower than going at a consistent speed.
3. It is very often completely safe for a skinny bicycle to run a red as long as they are not crossing a traffic flow, I'm a master of inner city traffic as I've done thousands of courier kilometres in the CBD, I could show you quite a few of the phases where it is safe for bicycle to boost across an intersection.
4. Bicycle courier... time is money, lights in NZ are never synchronised, and even if they were if I want to make survival money, then I'll do everything I can to get more work done. 100% commission.

Also should be noted, that there's not that many cyclists who run red lights but a few of us retards run heaps, and thus get noticed more. JRandom's got a ticket or two from running reds, but I've done it for years possibly 10's of thousands of times and never been picked up. I cycle more "invisibly" than J though.

Now what I need you to do is point out how cyclists are more dangerous, have a negative impact on traffic flows, inconvenience you, damage your vehicle, rape your wife, and then maybe I'll understand why you chose cyclists to vent your traffic frustrations. Anyone noticed that car drivers get all worked up about lane splitting motorcycles? I'll start another thread on a lane splitting observation that I just made yesterday.

**bogan** · 14th October 2009, 08:59

Originally Posted by vtec

I'll give you a summary about why I run all the red lights I possibly can. As this is the only law that has been agreed that cyclists sometimes behave badly around.

Also should be noted, that there's not that many cyclists who run red lights but a few of us retards run heaps, and thus get noticed more. JRandom's got a ticket or two from running reds, but I've done it for years possibly 10's of thousands of times and never been picked up. I cycle more "invisibly" than J though.

Anyone noticed that car drivers get all worked up about lane splitting motorcycles? I'll start another thread on a lane splitting observation that I just made yesterday.

You do know running red lights is illegal right? you can have lots of good reasons but its still illegal, so you can see why other road used might get a bit annoyed about it?

Lane splitting if done considerately is legal, the problem here is most cagers dont realise this, and get angry, i've had to inform many people of this fact, and now they don't get angry about it.

Each method of road transport has advantages and disadvantages, some inherant, some governed by road rules, pick one, deal with the disadvantages, but don't put yourself above the law. You do the rest of the road users in your group a dis-service by doing so.

**vtec** · 14th October 2009, 09:04

Originally Posted by bogan

You do know running red lights is illegal right? you can have lots of good reasons but its still illegal, so you can see why other road used might get a bit annoyed about it?

Lane splitting if done considerately is legal, the problem here is most cagers dont realise this, and get angry, i've had to inform many people of this fact, and now they don't get angry about it.

Each method of road transport has advantages and disadvantages, some inherant, some governed by road rules, pick one, deal with the disadvantages, but don't put yourself above the law. You do the rest of the road users in your group a dis-service by doing so.

I think it's mostly jealousy, I don't really know, still trying to get a handle on the ire in this situation. I don't get annoyed with other people doing things that may be thought of as "discourteous" or naughty as long as it doesn't negatively impact me or others. I have yet to have a reasonable logical explanation of how bicycles negatively impact on car drivers lives. Thought about it heaps this morning, and I've come up with this.
Car drivers are annoyed because cyclists actually exist on a moral high ground of creating minimal pollution, healthy living, traffic freedom, minimal danger to others, no damage to the roads, etc, and the inherent laziness in a person seeks to find some reason to demonise this segment of society, lest it becomes so normal that it is almost an expectation, a bit like having a flatmate who makes you feel lazy because he does pressups while you are watching TV, psychology is a funny thing. Had a chat with this guy who was saying how annoying he found it that his flatmate would exercise while watching the TV with him. Unfortunately I pointed out this was something that I myself do. People don't like to have their shortcomings stuck in their face all the time.

Unfortunately bicycle couriers are above the law :P That's what makes it so much fun. Catch me if you can.

My parting shot, the more people on bicycles and motorcycles, the more room for your cars on the roads. The less money required for spending on extending the roading network.

**RavenR44** · 14th October 2009, 09:07

Most of your post just rehashes your earlier work, so I won't bother responding to that, and if you think I'm arrogant, you're entitled to your opinion.

The bit below interests me...

"1. When starting off a bicycle is slow to gain momentum, and car drivers are very unforgiving for this so the bicycle will often be shaved down the side just after a green and swamped and pushed too close to parked cars. If you start off early or get clear of the race of cars from the lights, you increase your safety by a large margin.
2. Maintenance of energy. Bicycles are hard work, but stop start riding is much harder and slower than going at a consistent speed.
3. It is very often completely safe for a skinny bicycle to run a red as long as they are not crossing a traffic flow, I'm a master of inner city traffic as I've done thousands of courier kilometres in the CBD, I could show you quite a few of the phases where it is safe for bicycle to boost across an intersection.
4. Bicycle courier... time is money, lights in NZ are never synchronised, and even if they were if I want to make survival money, then I'll do everything I can to get more work done. 100% commission."

You choose to behave illegally on the roads because it's important to you personally. Your own needs clearly outweigh the common good and trump the law of the land. You are perhaps the quintissential example of why people detest cyclists. Yet you can't understand their reaction?

"Anyone noticed that car drivers get all worked up about lane splitting motorcycles?"

Yes. I'm certain we all have. Your point? Badly behaved motorcyclists are also a pain, just as are car drivers and cyclists. Besides you perhaps, who's arguing they're not?

"I'll start another thread on a lane splitting observation that I just made yesterday."

Good for you, and if you like I'll contribute a post or two. I didn't start this thread, BTW, in case you were confused about that. I note that you still haven't re-read my original post. Or maybe you have a comprehension problem. If there's something there that's not clear, I'll try to clarify it.

**vtec** · 14th October 2009, 09:25

Explain how me running reds on a bicycle negatively affects "the common good". Also, while on your righteous law abiding horse, please tell me that you never exceed the speed limits, and then I'll agree with your point and never run a red light again.

You didn't see my point about car drivers ire towards a seemingly harmless (yet sometimes illegal) lanesplitting motorcycle. That's because you have closed your mind, I'll expand for you. Car drivers get annoyed with motorcycle riders splitting for whatever reason, the same closed minded psychology gets motorcyclists and drivers annoyed with cyclists, who also don't negatively impact them.

I'll assume you agree with the parts of my argument that you have chosen to not respond to.

**RavenR44** · 14th October 2009, 09:30

Originally Posted by vtec

Explain how me running reds on a bicycle negatively affects "the common good". Also, while on your righteous law abiding horse, please tell me that you never exceed the speed limits, and then I'll agree with your point and never run a red light again.

You didn't see my point about car drivers ire towards a seemingly harmless (yet sometimes illegal) lanesplitting motorcycle. That's because you have closed your mind, I'll expand for you. Car drivers get annoyed with motorcycle riders splitting for whatever reason, the same closed minded psychology gets motorcyclists and drivers annoyed with cyclists, who also don't negatively impact them.

I'll assume you agree with the parts of my argument that you have chosen to not respond to.

Then you'll assume wrongly vtec. But attempting to reason with you has so far proven futile, so I'll leave it for you to have the final say that you're seemingly desperate for.

Andy.

**modboy** · 14th October 2009, 09:39

Originally Posted by bogan

You do know running red lights is illegal right? you can have lots of good reasons but its still illegal

... and motorcyclists (myself included) NEVER do anything illegal !

For fucks sake - what really really pisses me off about this entire argument is the fucking wankers that assume the position of the moral high ground.

We all break the law - I don't know any motorcyclists that haven't ever sped. For fucks sake, parking your bike on a footpath is illegal - so please don't tell me because something is illegal I therefore should not do it. You deservedly will be met with a barrage of abuse and rightly so (Unless you are Mother Teresa)

When I rode a scooter I was all over the place, rode on footpaths, snuck down one way streets the wrong way, rode over a railway pedestrian overbridge. My convenience was more important that most other things. AND THIS IS EXACTLY what the issue is with car drivers. Their convenience trumps a couple of cyclists doing 33k two abreast - well all I can say to those car drivers that get pissed of with this because they have to slow down and wait to get passed.

Fuck em !

Since when did my impatience become more important than your safety.

**bogan** · 14th October 2009, 09:40

Originally Posted by vtec

Explain how me running reds on a bicycle negatively affects "the common good". Also, while on your righteous law abiding horse, please tell me that you never exceed the speed limits, and then I'll agree with your point and never run a red light again.

You didn't see my point about car drivers ire towards a seemingly harmless (yet sometimes illegal) lanesplitting motorcycle. That's because you have closed your mind, I'll expand for you. Car drivers get annoyed with motorcycle riders splitting for whatever reason, the same closed minded psychology gets motorcyclists and drivers annoyed with cyclists, who also don't negatively impact them.

I'll assume you agree with the parts of my argument that you have chosen to not respond to.

You seem pretty confident your running of red does not endanger or negatively effect anybody, Ill trust you judgement on that one and agree, high vis intersections could be run with little or no risk. But what if less skilled rider were to emulate you actions after seeing you do it and assuming it is legal? Carnage could ensue.

Jealousy could be a part of it (think i said that in an earlier post) but i think inconsiderate and illeagal actions conrtibute greatly to the annoyance between road user types. Applying you logic to all road users would see everyone treating red lights as give way intersections, cars have better acceleration and stopping distances so are probly better equiped for doing so (aside form the lack of vision of course), my question to you, why should cyclists be the only ones allowed to tread red lights as give ways?

**bogan** · 14th October 2009, 09:45

Originally Posted by modboy

... and motorcyclists (myself included) NEVER do anything illegal !

For fucks sake - what really really pisses me off about this entire argument is the fucking wankers that assume the position of the moral high ground.

course ive done illegal stuff on my bike, but i do so with consideration for other motorists, if theres any around i generally wont do any illegal stuff, apart from maybe the odd 120kmhr pass, and I've never run a red light (even stopped at a green once), ill refer you to the point in my previous post, why are cyclists allowed to behave in ways that other motorists cannot?

**vtec** · 14th October 2009, 09:54

Originally Posted by bogan

You seem pretty confident your running of red does not endanger or negatively effect anybody, Ill trust you judgement on that one and agree, high vis intersections could be run with little or no risk. But what if less skilled rider were to emulate you actions after seeing you do it and assuming it is legal? Carnage could ensue.

Jealousy could be a part of it (think i said that in an earlier post) but i think inconsiderate and illeagal actions conrtibute greatly to the annoyance between road user types. Applying you logic to all road users would see everyone treating red lights as give way intersections, cars have better acceleration and stopping distances so are probly better equiped for doing so (aside form the lack of vision of course), my question to you, why should cyclists be the only ones allowed to tread red lights as give ways?

Good questions bogan, having to think about them.
First paragraph, yes you are right less skilled riders can put themselves in danger trying to emulate me, that's why not all riders run reds. I'm not here to wrap anyone else in cotton wool though, and if someone crashes their motorbike on a group ride because the leader was going too fast, I think that the person who crashed is entirely responsible.

The reason why bicycles are so good at running red lights (even more so than motorcycles) is their nimbleness, combined with their small dimensions. Unfortunately it takes too long to explain how I run the reds would have to show you some tricks for heavy traffic navigation on the bicycle. It is actually an art form, which involves memorising phases, using the spaces between cars waiting at the lights on the wrong side of the road, and using the footpath. Also, I'm not arguing that they should be allowed to run the reds, I'm merely arguing that it's actually advantageous and safer to do so in some conditions. Also, it's one of the things that makes bicycle couriers faster than motorcycle couriers. Bicycles are harder to prosecute without physically being stopped, and they are physically much harder to stop in heavy traffic than a car or even a motorcycle. Remember, I'm actually the minority here, I'm probably responsible for 2% of bicycles running red lights in the CBD area of Auckland when I'm working haha.

Why do I do it... money, and sometimes when I'm not working just because the phases are shit. Also, for the safety reasons aforementioned, not getting swamped and shaved lol.

Forgot to mention I'm also arguing that it is neither unsafe nor incosiderate when done properly.

**modboy** · 14th October 2009, 09:56

Originally Posted by bogan

course ive done illegal stuff on my bike, but i do so with consideration for other motorists, if theres any around i generally wont do any illegal stuff, apart from maybe the odd 120kmhr pass, and I've never run a red light (even stopped at a green once), ill refer you to the point in my previous post, why are cyclists allowed to behave in ways that other motorists cannot?

Why are motorcyclists allowed to behave in ways cagers cannot. Weaving in an out of traffic at 100k on motorways, splitting lanes etc.

It's up to police to enforce it.

As a cyclist it is (almost) always safer to carefully run through a red light provided you are not moving into the path of oncoming traffic - and why would you - this is particularly the case in congested city traffic. Part of the reason I run red lights on my push bike is to do with being courteous to other drivers - getting out of their way at the lights.

I've split traffic at lights only for some wanker in a cage to try to run me off the road (I was on my vespa) a well placed John Bull boot into a side panel of his car quietened him down. No one seems to try it on my Triumph, I look at them like I'm in the hells angels, give the debaffled Arrow a rev and they usually let me pull away without argument.

Point is drivers get jealous and enraged if you get one car length ahead of them - this is the majority of the problem. And as I've said - the only sane response to that is ...

fuck em.

**vtec** · 14th October 2009, 09:57

Originally Posted by bogan

course ive done illegal stuff on my bike, but i do so with consideration for other motorists, if theres any around i generally wont do any illegal stuff, apart from maybe the odd 120kmhr pass, and I've never run a red light (even stopped at a green once), ill refer you to the point in my previous post, why are cyclists allowed to behave in ways that other motorists cannot?

Hey man, now you're the one cherry picking which laws you think are acceptable and considerate to break. Explain how a bicycle running a red light is inconsiderate? And on the contrary explain how you speeding is considerate?