Top-out springs?

[Robert Taylor]

I think we have a difference in the definition of sidegrip there, sidegrip to me is during and after the transition, not before. If you have a rider who's backing it in all the way to the apex, side grip is not an issue, it's only when the front brake is released and weight trnsfers to the rear that side grip is important.

Some parts of a suspension unit control geometry to an extent, top out springs to me have more of a geometry function than a suspension function.

Yes fair enough thats the accepted definition. But you still importantly need grip on the way in. Riders that prefer to back it in will likely not favour top out springs so much, but even when backing it in they still want a level of grip.
So many ways to skin the cat with this!
Id have to mostly agree that TO springs provide more a geometry fuction, but geometry ( or rate of change of geometry ) also affects grip. I guess like I said in a previous post this is a huge subject.

[Pussy]

The problem is that a lot of riders have no clue what they want.

Admittedly, a rider needs to be able to describe symptoms/characteristics with some accuracy to be able to get the fix that he/she requires

[Robert Taylor]

The less sorted out your front is the more need there is for very effective topping out control in the rear shock, under brakes. ''Pitch balance control"
My experience is that top out springs ( when chosen correctly ) assist most in the braking zone of corner entry.
What do these ''on the throttle '' guys know that the Ohlins techs dont know? The same techs that work closely with Rossi, Lorenzo, Stoner, Spies, Haga, Biaggi, Rea, Haslam, Checa, Crutchlow, Laverty, Sofoglu,etc etc. These guys all run top out springs and the techs are not afraid to have options and change them as an added tuning element.
There are those tuners who try and do it all by external clicks ( which can only take you so far ) and those who are not afraid to lift the lid on suspension units to go further forward.

[GSVR]

Admittedly, a rider needs to be able to describe symptoms/characteristics with some accuracy to be able to get the fix that he/she requires

Cold sweating, unable to get comfortable and the feeling theres insects crawing under the skin.

I want my standard SV suspension back as this race/trackday setup is dam uncomfortable everyday ridng on the road!

[GSVR]

The less sorted out your front is the more need there is for very effective topping out control in the rear shock, under brakes. ''Pitch balance control"
My experience is that top out springs ( when chosen correctly ) assist most in the braking zone of corner entry.
What do these ''on the throttle '' guys know that the Ohlins techs dont know? The same techs that work closely with Rossi, Lorenzo, Stoner, Spies, Haga, Biaggi, Rea, Haslam, Checa, Crutchlow, Laverty, Sofoglu,etc etc. These guys all run top out springs and the techs are not afraid to have options and change them as an added tuning element.
There are those tuners who try and do it all by external clicks ( which can only take you so far ) and those who are not afraid to lift the lid on suspension units to go further forward.

Didn't get to see much racing at Manfield last weekend. How did Sam go after his "shocking" suspension had been all fixed up?

[Shaun]

[QUOTE=Robert Taylor;1129478827]The less sorted out your front is the more need there is for very effective topping out control in the rear shock, under brakes. ''Pitch balance control"
My experience is that top out springs ( when chosen correctly ) assist most in the braking zone of corner entry.



Agreed with what you say here Robert, when we were doing all that test work together a few years back now, Your above comment, was and is exactually correct

I remember the 3 shocks I had you build for the CBR 600 I raced and won on, the key to each one after we had internal settings that I liked, was different top out spring in each shock for me to test, and the difference realy surprised me, the rate of the top out spring has a huge effect on how the bike behaves going into a turn with the brakes on, ie, geometry completly altered, Front down, rear up! ( ''Pitch balance control" ) and the top out spring allows the wheel to stay in contact with the ground better, by giving it controll at the end of it,s stroke whilst breaking, they are nothing more than a ballancing device, but a very Important device

Now don't get started on front Top out springs guys, Robert had me doing days at Manfeild a few years back testing all this stuff, my forks and shocks have done more miles on a courier than the bikes ever did, and I loved it.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

What do these ''on the throttle '' guys know that the Ohlins techs dont know? The same techs that work closely with Rossi, Lorenzo, Stoner, Spies, Haga, Biaggi, Rea, Haslam, Checa, Crutchlow, Laverty, Sofoglu,etc etc. These guys all run top out springs and the techs are not afraid to have options and change them as an added tuning element.

One of the most common things you hear in the states is that guys don't like top out springs because "you can't get proper sag settings". I don't think top out springs are really understood in the US.

Another thing is that suspension tuning in my country is a one size fits all approach. Everyone likes to have x compression stack & y rebound stack they can put in every customer's forks. Obviously you need a stack to start with as a baseline, but most people (including the customers) do not want to go beyond that.

In the past all the bikes came with short stiff top out springs that I personally don't think moved all that much. Now you have new bikes coming out with longer softer top out springs and that introduces a new variable. A new variable means more work, and that means more headaches.

There are those tuners who try and do it all by external clicks ( which can only take you so far ) and those who are not afraid to lift the lid on suspension units to go further forward.

I don't know those OTT guys and that video was the first I had ever seen them.

I am not making any excuses, but part of that is the market place in the US. Excluding the top level riders/teams, people will not pay to revalve their Ohlins or Penske shock. You just will not get them to do it.

The reasoning behind this is -
1. You are talking to someone who has no clue about what is going on with the bike and what they should be looking for.
2. The guy's mindset is that he just paid $1k+ USD for an Ohlins shock and that Ohlins is the best and how could anyone do anything better.
3. Since they just paid $1k+ USD for that shock they are not going to spend any more $$ on it.
4. All the riders over here are concerned about horsepower which goes back to #1. I talk to guys over here all the time and they all think they need more motor.

They talk about how they all get passed coming off the turn. You try to explain to them about corner speed but they just don't get it.

I spoke with my friend the club racer about spending a couple of hundred dollars getting his Ohlins shock revalved and his answer was that he didn't have the money. The next day he is sending me a link for a set of Yosh cams for $500 that he wants to put in his engine because he "needs" more motor.

Beyond the initial sending out the forks to be reworked and replacing the stock shock you are not going to get racers to do anything further. The only exception is if there is a problem like bottoming or leaking.

[Pussy]

It sounds like a lot of US riders are doing themselves a disservice.
My FGK cartridges don't have a single "as delivered" setting in them.
The compression and rebound valving settings are custom-for-me set, along with the top out springs... as are the main springs.
The TTX on the rear HAS got stock(as delivered) valving, but has been sprung for me. I'm happy with it's performance.
All this set up is for a road riding enthusiast who only does 2-3 trackdays a year.
So if an average road rider can get/feel the benefits of properly set up suspension... the sky is the limit for the experts who take the time to have the job done properly

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

The TTX on the rear HAS got stock(as delivered) valving, but has been sprung for me.

Most will change the springs if their is an issue.

I think the biggest problem here is that there isn't a lot of info on suspension and how things work.

Another thing is finding a competent shop.

In the US the best suspension tuners work with the factories. Beyond that you have a very few shops that will give you a good quality product. All knowledge is kept in house though. Part of that is the competitive nature of the business, part of it that people are too busy to explain stuff to the "internet experts", and the third part is that tuners are afraid to open their mouths as to expose how much they don't know.

The majority of the shops/people out there are clueless.

[Robert Taylor]

Didn't get to see much racing at Manfield last weekend. How did Sam go after his "shocking" suspension had been all fixed up?

Hopeless, for all to see.

[Robert Taylor]

Cold sweating, unable to get comfortable and the feeling theres insects crawing under the skin.

I want my standard SV suspension back as this race/trackday setup is dam uncomfortable everyday ridng on the road!

Sort it then and stop grizzling about it. A well sorted trackday setup wouldnt neccessarily be uncomfortable on the road.

[Robert Taylor]

One of the most common things you hear in the states is that guys don't like top out springs because "you can't get proper sag settings". I don't think top out springs are really understood in the US.

Another thing is that suspension tuning in my country is a one size fits all approach. Everyone likes to have x compression stack & y rebound stack they can put in every customer's forks. Obviously you need a stack to start with as a baseline, but most people (including the customers) do not want to go beyond that.

In the past all the bikes came with short stiff top out springs that I personally don't think moved all that much. Now you have new bikes coming out with longer softer top out springs and that introduces a new variable. A new variable means more work, and that means more headaches.


I don't know those OTT guys and that video was the first I had ever seen them.

I am not making any excuses, but part of that is the market place in the US. Excluding the top level riders/teams, people will not pay to revalve their Ohlins or Penske shock. You just will not get them to do it.

The reasoning behind this is -
1. You are talking to someone who has no clue about what is going on with the bike and what they should be looking for.
2. The guy's mindset is that he just paid $1k+ USD for an Ohlins shock and that Ohlins is the best and how could anyone do anything better.
3. Since they just paid $1k+ USD for that shock they are not going to spend any more $$ on it.
4. All the riders over here are concerned about horsepower which goes back to #1. I talk to guys over here all the time and they all think they need more motor.

They talk about how they all get passed coming off the turn. You try to explain to them about corner speed but they just don't get it.

I spoke with my friend the club racer about spending a couple of hundred dollars getting his Ohlins shock revalved and his answer was that he didn't have the money. The next day he is sending me a link for a set of Yosh cams for $500 that he wants to put in his engine because he "needs" more motor.

Beyond the initial sending out the forks to be reworked and replacing the stock shock you are not going to get racers to do anything further. The only exception is if there is a problem like bottoming or leaking.

Yes those attitudes do also prevail here to some extent. Its amazing how so many people think shocks are ''one size fits all'' and those external adjusters can magically accomodate every possible scenario from installing the shock in a scooter to into a Mack truck!
The important thing to remember is that a racing shock / cartridge is still a tunable tool. If you want to go faster then sooner or later it comes apart. The important thing also is to know if whoever pulls it apart has access to the setting banks and constant updates and if they have actually had factory training to do so. I suspect there are a lot of ''experts'' that have popped up in the States. The worst are those who constantly feed their own egos and spin tall tales!
The bar has been lifted quite high here simply because we have been willing to go well beyond external ''springs and clickers''.

[Robert Taylor]

[QUOTE=Shaun;1129479633]

The less sorted out your front is the more need there is for very effective topping out control in the rear shock, under brakes. ''Pitch balance control"
My experience is that top out springs ( when chosen correctly ) assist most in the braking zone of corner entry.



Agreed with what you say here Robert, when we were doing all that test work together a few years back now, Your above comment, was and is exactually correct

I remember the 3 shocks I had you build for the CBR 600 I raced and won on, the key to each one after we had internal settings that I liked, was different top out spring in each shock for me to test, and the difference realy surprised me, the rate of the top out spring has a huge effect on how the bike behaves going into a turn with the brakes on, ie, geometry completly altered, Front down, rear up! ( ''Pitch balance control" ) and the top out spring allows the wheel to stay in contact with the ground better, by giving it controll at the end of it,s stroke whilst breaking, they are nothing more than a ballancing device, but a very Important device

Now don't get started on front Top out springs guys, Robert had me doing days at Manfeild a few years back testing all this stuff, my forks and shocks have done more miles on a courier than the bikes ever did, and I loved it.

Yes, thinking is just as divided between the US and European companies with respect to front top out springs.

[Robert Taylor]

Most will change the springs if their is an issue.

I think the biggest problem here is that there isn't a lot of info on suspension and how things work.

Another thing is finding a competent shop.

In the US the best suspension tuners work with the factories. Beyond that you have a very few shops that will give you a good quality product. All knowledge is kept in house though. Part of that is the competitive nature of the business, part of it that people are too busy to explain stuff to the "internet experts", and the third part is that tuners are afraid to open their mouths as to expose how much they don't know.

The majority of the shops/people out there are clueless.

I can well understand the guys at the top of their game being protective of often hard earned knowledge and information from the factories that they have only earnt through committment, investment and loyalty to the product. There are a lot of parasites out there and Ive often been milked for knowledge and been too forthcoming to people with either egos to satisfy or an agenda to take all they can get and bugger any ethics about it all.

[Yankee Doodle Dandy]

I can well understand the guys at the top of their game being protective of often hard earned knowledge and information from the factories that they have only earnt through committment, investment and loyalty to the product. There are a lot of parasites out there and Ive often been milked for knowledge and been too forthcoming to people with either egos to satisfy or an agenda to take all they can get and bugger any ethics about it all.

I have been there with stuff but in the end no one learns anything and the sport dies out like it did this year in my country.

Back to the top out springs, what is the range of the spring selection from Ohlins, from soft to hard?