Mandatory high visibility vests/clothing?

[pzkpfw]

Which I tried to point out to Sir German Tank with results from another study that used a significantly bigger number of participants than the NZ "study".

This was that study:

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/328/7444/857

Trouble is I couldn't really use it in the disucssion because it also said things like:

Crash related injuries occurred mainly in urban zones with 50 km/h speed limit (66%), during the day (63%), and in fine weather (72%). After adjustment for potential confounders, drivers wearing any reflective or fluorescent clothing had a 37% lower risk (multivariate odds ratio 0.63, 95% confidence interval 0.42 to 0.94) than other drivers.

While it did say:

No association occurred between risk and the frontal colour of drivers' clothing or motorcycle.

It went on to say:

If these odds ratios are unconfounded, the population attributable risks are 33% for wearing no reflective or fluorescent clothing, 18% for a non-white helmet, 11% for a dark coloured helmet, and 7% for no daytime headlight operation.

And concluded:

Conclusions Low conspicuity may increase the risk of motorcycle crash related injury. Increasing the use of reflective or fluorescent clothing, white or light coloured helmets, and daytime headlights are simple, cheap interventions that could considerably reduce motorcycle crash related injury and death.

For the record, I don't want to wear a high visibility vest, either.

But when explaining that to a car driver who thinks bikes should have higher fees, I need a defendable reason.

[Ixion]

I usually (not always) wear hi-viz. But I am strongly opposed to compulsion in such matters.

There are studies which show that wearing hi-viz makes riders more visible.

I am not sure if this is true nowadays when world plus dog is wearing it . that is, I don't know how much of the effect in the studies was actually due to the fact that it is more visible, and how much was due to the fact that, back then, hi-viz was unusual on the roads - making people do a double take - "what's THAT").

End of the day, it can do no harm, and costs very little . And MAY be of some benefit.

[StoneY]

I read a study about 5 years ago done in the States that showed a rider fully decked out in deep black was MORE visible than a rider in dayglos, fuck knows how that works....
It was a study done by none less than Harvard School of Physics, it even had a segment on Discovery channel way back that said the same thing, black is MORE visible due to its lack of reflectiveness.....

Point is, dont trust "published studies' as they are targeted results that the researchers opion has directly sought data to substantiate (ACC specialize in such studies obviously!)

For every study that said smacking kids made axe murderers there are 2 that say NOT disciplining ya kids sufficiently led to....axe murderers

Damed if ya do, damned if ya dont
Only Flurescant shit your ever gonna see me wearing is my BIKEOI protest vest

Osu!

[James Deuce]

This was that study:

http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/328/7444/857

Trouble is I couldn't really use it in the disucssion because it also said things like:



While it did say:



It went on to say:



And concluded:




For the record, I don't want to wear a high visibility vest, either.

But when explaining that to a car driver who thinks bikes should have higher fees, I need a defendable reason.

That answer is easy.

Survey results are inconsistent and the only evidence they make any difference is anecdotal.

I'm still looking for the British Survey that claimed that accident rates for bikers wearing hi-vis in urban situations went up due to their speed being inconsistent with a car driver's expectation of how the wearer was travelling. Most people expect a hi-vis vest wearer to be on foot - policeman, road worker, ambo, etc, and so fail to anticipate the vest wearer traversing or entering an intersection at speed, if they see them at all.

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

I read a study about 5 years ago done in the States that showed a rider fully decked out in deep black was MORE visible than a rider in dayglos, fuck knows how that works....
Osu!

The dark stands out against the multitudes of light coloured backgrounds. Think of a newspapper and all the coloured adverts your eyes just glaze over it... now take one and make it a black block, it would stick out like a sore thumb

However there are also studies that show wearing them makes you more visible (usually done by those that make the vests) There is no no real proof it would make any difference to lower bike accidents... especially if you throw in motion incuded blindness

http://www.michaelbach.de/ot/mot_mib/

[vifferman]

I wonder whether the fact that until recently the only bikers with white helmets and fluoro vests were bike cops has anything to do with the increased visibility thing? It's all about perceived threat, innit?

I nearly collided with a scroter a few years back, when I didn't see him approaching an intersection when I was about to take off on my bike. Luckily I took a second look. I'm glad it happened, as it made me aware of how easy it is to look and yet not see. FWIW, he was riding a black Vespa, and wearing dark clothing. I can't recall if he had his light on, but I don't think any of this has anything to do with not seeing him. However, who knows? It may have.

As for the threat thing, I unwittingly performed an experiment testing this a few years ago, when I had a black bike and had just bought a new red Teknic jacket. One day I wore the new jacket, the next I wore all black (gloves, pants, jacket, helmet, pants, boots) and commuted during "rush" hour taking the same route at the same time of day. The second time, more cars tended to move out of my way as I was filtering trhough the traffic.

[vifferman]

I read a study about 5 years ago done in the States that showed a rider fully decked out in deep black was MORE visible than a rider in dayglos

I suspect it relates more to threat than how much things stand out.
The problem today is that SO many people wear fluoro gear that it's lost its effectiveness. Imagine if everything was fluoro coloured (the ultimate in safety?): nothing would stand out.
It's like the overuse of cones - the orange bastids have bred like rabbits, and the coners put them up by the hundreds, even when there's no apparent need, so a lot of the motoring public ignore them.

[NighthawkNZ:Me]

I suspect it relates more to threat than how much things stand out.
The problem today is that SO many people wear fluoro gear that it's lost its effectiveness. Imagine if everything was fluoro coloured (the ultimate in safety?): nothing would stand out.

You would if you were wearing black but you are correct... hense my newspaper advert comment. You eyes and brain will start to filter things and bang you still get hit by the car...

[KiwiGs]

The few times I have worn a high viz jacket* during the day have made no difference at all to the number of people cutting me off. Personally I think the issue, in a lot of cases, is that people driving cars just can’t judge the speed of a bike.
That said I always have some Hi Viz reflective gear when I ride at night, 'cause I know for a fact how hard it is to see a bike at night and I know how much someone wearing one sticks out...


*when it rains and I have to wear my work rain coat over my leathers

[vifferman]

That said I always have some Hi Viz reflective gear when I ride at night, 'cause I know for a fact how hard it is to see a bike at night and I know how much someone wearing one sticks out...

My black gear all has some discrete reflective bits on it. Jacket has reflective stretch panels and piping, as do my pants; the boots have reflectors on the back (unfortunately at the top, so my pants often cover them up); gloves have reflective piping. Just need to get some of those stickers for my helmet (the ones that look like coloured or clear decals but are reflective.)

I saw a guy at night a while back: not only was his dayglo suit fairly reflective, but he had white reflective strips on it. With the headlights on him he was practically blinding.

[KiwiGs]

I saw a guy at night a while back: not only was his dayglo suit fairly reflective, but he had white reflective strips on it. With the headlights on him he was practically blinding.

I have seen that as well, any one say target fixation...

[vifferman]

I have seen that as well, any one say target fixation...

I could imagine someone running him over:"AAAAaaarrrRRRghhh!!! My eyes! MY EYES!!! Make it stop! MAKE IT STOP!!!"

[mashman]

You would if you were wearing black but you are correct... hense my newspaper advert comment. You eyes and brain will start to filter things and bang you still get hit by the car...

They shouldn't be reading the paper whilst driving, let alone looking for bikers in it!

Whilst i'm all for bikes having lights on during the day, it seems like a futile gesture to put on a hi-vis vest too... If i see a bike with it's lights on, i can't tell what the guy is wearing... why would i want to know, i'm most likely checking my mirrors for hazards as i'm about to perform some form of manoeuvre... the lights should give me away... Unfortunately that doesn't help with the misjudgement of speed...

Perhaps todays technology could be used (shit a cage can parallel park itself these days). Why do we not have head up displays to highlight the likelyhood of an accident should you perform your manoeuvre... to me that's about the only way we're going to solve cage v bike crashes... certainly the eye plus brain thing isn't working well enough for some people...

[Big Dave]

No. I strongly oppose any compulsory anything.

What drivers say is 'I didn't see him' and that is what is reported in similar statistics.

When in fact the truth is 'I didn't look', but that doesn't go over well with Police or insurance.

Apart from that I have no desire to look like Ixion.

[Swoop]

Hi-Viz is everywhere. It was a novelty that "The OSH Monster" took great pleasure in inflicting upon the unsuspecting populace.


I'm really surprised that porno movies do not have the actors and actresses wearing some form of fluro safety wear AND have orange safety cones around the bed... after all, it is a workplace!