Climatic Change

[Flatcap]

I'm more worried about the impact of the ecomentalists than the environment itself. Being a fundamentalist greenie is now a religion:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/ne...ectid=10612602

[mashman]

Im really worried,my retirement aint looking anywhere as cosy as it did.
I think most folk really underestimate how deep the shit is that we're stumbling into.
I could go on & on but that'll just rev up the flat earthers that'll no doubt be along shortly.....

My step dad has just done his 40 years on the railways in the UK. Unfortunately during a string of acquisitions, following privatisation, the pension fund lawfully dissappeared. The shit will get deeper if we follow the way the UK does business... or the world for that matter.

But i have to agree with several guys on here... any ELE will render climate change moot.

[vifferman]

Global warming says that the polar regions will heat up first, so that would lead to more benign weather patterns, not more extreme one.

Indeed. The greenies are using scare-mongering to get people to run on emotions rather than logic. Science (in the form of actual records) suggests that
if the world warms up, the weather patterns will be more settled, with fewer extreme weather events.

I'm more worried about the impact of the ecomentalists than the environment itself.

Studying Greenpeace's history is illuminating; they used to be anti-establishment, battling "The Man" and "The Establishment". However, as they've become more mainstream, they've had to shift their focus, and now that they themselves have become part of the establishment, it's been harder to find windmills to tilt at. The more radical are, however, still destructive and anarchistic, and anti-humanitarian, even stating that if all humans were gone from Mother Earth, she'd be much happier and healthier.

The biggest worry is that now that global climate change has become a cause celebre, it's a big industry in itself, employing thousands of bureaucrats, scientists, statisticians, lobbyists, etc etc. all of whom have every reason to want to keep the ball rolling and the gravy train steaming along. Kinda makes it hard for them to be at all unbiased and open-minded.

[Blackbird]

The biggest worry is that now that global climate change has become a cause celebre, it's a big industry in itself, employing thousands of bureaucrats, scientists, statisticians, lobbyists, etc etc. all of whom have every reason to want to keep the ball rolling and the gravy train steaming along. Kinda makes it hard for them to be at all unbiased and open-minded.

Well said Ian. That's exactly the point Gareth Morgan made. some people are becoming very rich on it! As for asking who believes or doesn't, you might as well ask whether you believe in God or not. Almost a matter of faith with the amount of conflicting evidence around.

[Quasievil]

If Ive learnt one thing in life...."follow the money trail for the answers"

its a scam

[puddytat]

As for asking who believes or doesn't, you might as well ask whether you believe in God or not. Almost a matter of faith with the amount of conflicting evidence around.

Your've hit the nail on the head.....

[centaurus]

A few points I want to make:

1. Global warming is real and it's made by us. However, I believe the term is wrongly chosen. It's not so much about warming as about global weather screw-up. In the last 10-15 years the world has seen more and more totally unexpected (and usually very destructive) weather patterns all over the world. And it's getting worse and worse every year.

2. Pleople need to understand once and for all that this "global warming hoax" talk is exactly the same as the tobacco companies were doing in the 60-70, trying to argue that smoking doesn't actually kill. There's a lot of money still to be made from fossil fuel and nobody wants to give up this huge amount of money. The funny thing is that they acquire adepts by threatening us with the car extinction if we believe in man made global warming. However, if you look at the figures, the industries and the armies of the world produce the majority of the pollution and green gasses, but unlike us normal people they have powerful lobby groups in every country and sponsor most world's leading political parties, so we end up carrying the burden they should wear.

3. The fact that global warming is real doesn't mean that politicians can't use it to squeeze us of more money. That's what they know best. Do not mistake the two issues: on one hand man made global warming is real and is here, but on the other hand for politicians it's just another excuse to tax us more (like "terrorism" is nowadays a very good excuse to take away personal freedom in more and more countries).

4. FORGET GLOBAL WARMING. THERE'S ANOTHER MORE URGENT ISSUE. Global man made pollution has killed and continues to kill many people. Most people in the urban areas are getting sick or at least have a lower quality of life due to pollution. I'm surprised nobody talks about this. If we as a society continue to burn fossil fuels as much as we currently do, pollution will kill or sicken us all long before the petrol runs out or the weather gets so warm that we end up drowning. This is a much more immediate danger and I'm surprised it has been so ignored in the last few years in the favour of global warming.

[Mikkel]

Huh? That is a new one. The West Antartic ice sheet is breaking up, but that is above the antarctic circle, and has done this many times before. The remainder of Antartica is comprised mainly of glaciers over bedrock, and these glaciers are so massive that they are hard to comprehend. But like all glaciers they are flowing, so they calve. Nothing new there. But Antartica disappearing? Where is that data?

Hmmm, I actually had the impression that there is hardly any precipitation on antarctica in this era (IIRC I've heard people call it "the driest place on earth"). As such the glaciers shouldn't flow at all since no new material is being added. Any calving observed in this circumstance would be due to actual destabilisation through melting at the terminus.

Indeed. The greenies are using scare-mongering to get people to run on emotions rather than logic. Science (in the form of actual records) suggests that
if the world warms up, the weather patterns will be more settled, with fewer extreme weather events.

Where is the data to suggest this? A reference would be nice. Especially since it goes against what you would expect from a thermodynamical perspective:

Higher temperature = higher energy = more movement = more turbulence.

A higher temperature would also mean more evaporation from the seas and as a result more moisture in the air and consequently more precipitation. It would stand to reason that this would affect an increase in hurricanes since they rely on the increased humidity over warm water to get going in the first place.

Weather effects like El Nino is being driven by minute temperature differentials (0.5°C) and can have a huge impact. The weather system is a chaotic system - i.e. minute difference in initial conditions may effect huge differences in the results.

But hey, I'm neither a meteorologist nor a climate scientist, so if you got a reasoned reference to suggest that warmer weather equates a mores stable climate I'd love to see it.

Well said Ian. That's exactly the point Gareth Morgan made. some people are becoming very rich on it! As for asking who believes or doesn't, you might as well ask whether you believe in God or not. Almost a matter of faith with the amount of conflicting evidence around.

It would just be refreshing if laymen were willing to admit they don't actually have the first clue about what they are talking about. Instead we have people engaging in the debate with a delusion that they have the answer and that there really isn't anything to discuss. It would serve them better to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up.

[Jantar]

A......

3. The fact that global warming is real doesn't ......

All through your post you keep saying that Global warming is real as though it were a fact.

Have a look at the actual data, and you will see that the climate is changing. It always has and always will. At present we appear to be in a period of global cooling. We have been cooling for around 10 years, and that is likely to continue for a further 15 - 20 years.

Global warming isn't a fact, its a dogma.

Your last point about pollution though is something we should all be concerned about. But that is a seperate topic from global warming.

[Dave Lobster]

It would just be refreshing if laymen were willing to admit they don't actually have the first clue about what they are talking about. Instead we have people engaging in the debate with a delusion that they have the answer and that there really isn't anything to discuss. It would serve them better to sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up, and blindly hand over their cash like good little sheep.

Edited for you..

[Mikkel]

Edited for you..

The day I need someone to put words in my mouth I'll be in touch.

Whether people know what they talk about and whether they choose to enter the debate with an open mind or prejudice they will still be paying their taxes. I'm all for debunking myths - and all for not ignoring a potential problem.

[Mr Merde]

.....

4. FORGET GLOBAL WARMING. THERE'S ANOTHER MORE URGENT ISSUE. Global man made pollution has killed and continues to kill many people. Most people in the urban areas are getting sick or at least have a lower quality of life due to pollution. I'm surprised nobody talks about this. If we as a society continue to burn fossil fuels as much as we currently do, pollution will kill or sicken us all long before the petrol runs out or the weather gets so warm that we end up drowning. This is a much more immediate danger and I'm surprised it has been so ignored in the last few years in the favour of global warming.

This I believe is a the real problem.

[centaurus]

Have a look at the actual data, and you will see that the climate is changing. It always has and always will. At present we appear to be in a period of global cooling. We have been cooling for around 10 years, and that is likely to continue for a further 15 - 20 years.

Global warming isn't a fact, its a dogma.

Your last point about pollution though is something we should all be concerned about. But that is a seperate topic from global warming.

As far as "data" is concerned, I've seen a lot of data and quite a lot of ways of representing. Depending how you collate the data, and the period you choose for your representation, you can easily change the context. I have personally seen the same figures interpreted in two totally different ways by changing the other parameters (usually they play with the sampling period and the result looks totally different). That is why I am not going to argue with you on the "data" subject -we would be here till next year and still not agree on an answer.

However, the point is moot due to the fact that the same factors that create global warming are creating pollution too so even if we were to say global warming is a hoax, we still need to deal with the gasses that will kill us long before global warming will kill the planet.

The issue is that the lobby groups againsts the "global warming" issue are trying to convince us that is in our disadvantage to believe or agree with the global warming (because if we do we will have to agree with higher taxes, we will have to dich the cars, etc... - which is a load of shit). Unfortunately there are a lot of people around (expecially among us petrol heads) that refuse to believe in the "man made-global warming" not because they've seen concrete data and have been truly convinced by the evidence, but just because deep down they think admitting there is global warming will be in their disadvantage.

[Jantar]

Hmmm, I actually had the impression that there is hardly any precipitation on antarctica in this era (IIRC I've heard people call it "the driest place on earth"). As such the glaciers shouldn't flow at all since no new material is being added. Any calving observed in this circumstance would be due to actual destabilisation through melting at the terminus.

It is one of the driest places on earth with average precipitation over the continent at less than 50 mm per annum. That isn't No precipitation, just very little. A surface area of 13829430 km^2 and 50 mm of precipitation means that that the glaciers have to calve an average of 6.9 * 10^11 cubic meters of ice each year just to stay in balance.

Where is the data to suggest this? A reference would be nice. Especially since it goes against what you would expect from a thermodynamical perspective:

Higher temperature = higher energy = more movement = more turbulence.

My meteororolgy reference books are at work, and I'm at home right now. But this goes right back to Met 101, and the formation of the Hadley Cells. It isn't the temperature of the atmosphere itself that sets off movement and turbulance, but the temperature gradient between adjacent air masses. The Hadley cells are the means that the atmosphere uses to redistribute energy through the atmosphere. Warm air rises in the equatorial regions, and falls at around 30 degrees latitude. It rises again at 60 degrees latitude and falls in the polar regions. The result is easterly winds at the equator, duldrims in the tropics, westerly winds in the roaring 40s and easterly again as latitudes become polar. The greater the temerature differential the stronger these winds will be. Note that all the global warming models predict warming will take place fastest in the polar regions and at high altitudes.

For hurricanes to form we need a small area of high temperauture over the sea which will cause warm moist air to rise. As it rises it will start to rotate (anticycl;onic in the northern hemisphere, cyclonic in the southern hemisphere). But two more conditions are required for a hurricane or a cyclone: There must be a cooler air mass close by which is generally caused by a decending high pressure air mass (here's where the hadley cells come in), and there must be strong high altitude winds to move that rising air awai and feed the forming low pressuere area below. These strong winds also require a temperature differential betyween equatorial and polr regions.

[Okey Dokey]

Well, I think OVERPOPULATION is the "real" problem. Never mind an ETS, how about a carbon tax on children?