Countersteering advice...

[MSTRS:Me]

When the bike is leaned over more, its suspension does not work as well as if it is upright.

Which was my point. To me, weighting the outside peg will slightly decrease the lean angle of the bike, and increase the amount the rider's body leans in.
Simply put, bikes turn by leaning (forget the countersteering stuff...that just initiates the lean), but are most stable when upright. Peg weighting is an attempt to find a balance between the two.

[R-Soul]

Which was my point. To me, weighting the outside peg will slightly decrease the lean angle of the bike, and increase the amount the rider's body leans in.
Simply put, bikes turn by leaning (forget the countersteering stuff...that just initiates the lean), but are most stable when upright. Peg weighting is an attempt to find a balance between the two.

I understand that you are saying that weighting the outside peg leverages the bike upright. Which does make sense. But I think that that effect is negligible when you look at the short distance of the lever, and the weight of the bike that you are trying to leverage. And the same effect can be gained by simply countersteering the bike to a more upright position, while keeping your bodyweight as inside as you can.

I reckon (just my opinion) that better performance gains are to be had by getting your body weight further inside over and lower without straightening your outside leg. This also allows the bike to stand up straighter as your body weight provides more inwards acceleration against the centripetal corners during cornering if it is more inwards.

But like I say, I just felt uncomfortable on the outisde peg and had to lean the bike in more than I would have had to otherwse. Maybe it is just a matter of preference.

[Dan Mapp]

No he is right - if you have countersteering ingrained, you can react in an emergency, not rely on your fright reaction to move your weight or anything else to teh correct side of teh bike.


As far as turning goes, moving your weight around has about 20% of the effectiveness of countersteering. ESPECIALLY in emergencies when you are freezing up.

Having the RIGHT reflexes and techniques ingrained is absolutely critical - and I can attest that bikes dont just "go round corners, regardless if you're focused on counter steering or not".

I was involved in two relatively serious accidents before I learnt countersteering - which could have been avoided had I known about it- because nobody had mentioned it to me as a technique, and because I had not bothered to "think too much".

To quote the Megarider website:

"There are six main survival skills a rider needs to avoid/survive about 95% of all motorcycle crashes. This 95% of crashes encompasses virtually all of the life-threatening accidents.

While some of the skills are relatively sophisticated, they are not beyond the learning ability of novice riders.

The skills and their related crashes are:

CRASH and SKILL

Collision with turning car:

Direction perspective,
manoeuvre anticipation,
crash survival,
countersteering,
risk management,
emergency braking.

Failure to Negotiate Corner:

Direction perspective,
emergency braking,
crash survival.

[theres hould be countersteering here too imo]

Head-On Collision

Risk management,
direction perspective,
emergency braking,
crash survival,
countersteering. "


You go right ahead with your hippie-free-love-ideas-of-bikes-just-going-around-corners-as-part-of-the-universe thinking. And hopefully you'll make it through your first crash to come back and figure it out properly.

I didn,t say he was not right. (as far as counter steering went) It was his holy than now attitude in telling people they have no right to be on the road if they don't have a one or another skills he thinks they should have.

[MSTRS:Me]

I understand that you are saying that weighting the outside peg leverages the bike upright. Which does make sense. But I think that that effect is negligible when you look at the short distance of the lever, and the weight of the bike that you are trying to leverage. And the same effect can be gained by simply countersteering the bike to a more upright position, while keeping your bodyweight as inside as you can.

I reckon (just my opinion) that better performance gains are to be had by getting your body weight further inside over and lower without straightening your outside leg. This also allows the bike to stand up straighter as your body weight provides more inwards acceleration against the centripetal corners during cornering if it is more inwards.

But like I say, I just felt uncomfortable on the outisde peg and had to lean the bike in more than I would have had to otherwse. Maybe it is just a matter of preference.

You are quite correct. Add a bit of peg-weighting, and the whole process becomes just that little bit smoother and stable. Everything I've ever read etc on the weighting subject has been for the outside. If the inside peg works for you, go for it, I guess. As long as you/bike are working together, and you are cornering safely and smoothly, I guess it's the riders choice??

[magicmonkey]

The mass on the bike remains the same and the suspension loading remains the same, albeit at different angles because of the geometries involved ...

You wind up with your legs taking some of the motion and therefore not transferring as much motion to your upper body, which is good as the upper body can act like an upside down pendulum at extremes but at slow speeds or few bumps it means les of the mass of the bike+rider is shaking, therefore better stability...

That's a paraphrasing of some keith code stuff rather than anything I've found out on my own. I've not really had a chance to try it out for myself since reading it but considering the source I'd say it was pretty spot on...

[CookMySock]

Weighting the outside peg settles the bike in two ways. [....] First, because the rider pushes on the outside peg, their body is naturally pushed the other way, therefore increasing the body's mass towards the inside of the bike and assisting with rider lean. Secondly, the bike's suspension works better when it is not under so much compression load...ie the bike will stand up slightly, taking the load off the shocks.
The rider being further off towards the inside counteracts the lesser lean of the bike.
The end result is that the bike turns smoother and feels more planted.

That is an excellent description. I have been struggling to put that into words, but thats pretty much my feelings on it exactly.

When you push on the outsuide peg, you dont push inwardly, you push upwardly. The bike happens to be leaning inwardly,so pushing upwardly means you are effectively moving your body inwardly (although you dont really want it high up, you just want your body's centre of mass inside the bikes centre line).

The idea is that it puts the rider in a better posture, and moves his body weight towards the inside of the turn.

It does so with the weight on the inside or outside peg.

I agree completely. Weight on either peg doesn't really cause an effect on the bike. The effect gained is the moving of the rider mass - towards the inside.

Sure, moving your body's centreline to the inside is always going to make you turn more, but I cannot reconcile this effect with putting your bodyweight on the outside peg.

Try it. Setting up before a left-hand corner - lift weight off seat and put weight on right footpeg - note where your body moves. Bike tilts right, body goes left, bike goes straight ahead like > , now MAINTAIN this posture and countersteer into the corner. Take care not to sit upright as you roll in.

This is because you would have to partially straighten your outside leg while moving to the opposite side, and thereby cause the bike to lean over more - which you dont want to do. And I get the same stabilising effect with weight on inside peg and its much easier to accomplish, so why do it?

Before you roll in, you must tilt the bike the opposite way. If you don't, the bike will begin to corner early.

Basically, approaching any corner, IF you are going to weightshift, then the bike will temporarily be leaning the wrong way. You can just lift your arse up and plant it elsewere, or slide and weight the outside peg, or whatever spanks your monkey, but there will be some opposite lean and some opposite bar pressure, all changing to temporary positive bar pressure and positive lean once you are established in the turn.. more lean for you, and less for the bike.

Steve

[chasio]

I do a long sweeping curve onto the mortorway (Onewa Rd, North Shore) at speed every day, and have been experiementing on this bend with weighting, and it just makes so much more sense having weight on the inside peg.

I will check it up in that book "Total Control" as well.

Any comments from other riders out there?

I ride that bend frequently as well. It's beautiful in the dry, but the two sets of metal strips over the joins give me the shits in wet weather, particularly the second one.

Have you found weighting the inside or outside peg makes much different to how slippery they feel in the wet?

[R-Soul]

I didn,t say he was not right. (as far as counter steering went) It was his holy than now attitude in telling people they have no right to be on the road if they don't have a one or another skills he thinks they should have.

I see what you are saying, but you can only assume that his attitude is what it is because he cares about guys not being injured.

In that respect, if the entire biking community were serious about safety and had the attitusde that "proper bikers" are prepared to do what it takes (inlcuding thinking hard) to be safe, we might have a few less accidents on our roads.

Yes it is a bit arrogant and knobbish, but I would rather be the arrogant knob that than have to watch them pull another body out of the ditch...or read about a widow telling everyone what a great guy her hubby used to be, and how much his kids are going to miss him...

[R-Soul]

I ride that bend frequently as well. It's beautiful in the dry, but the two sets of metal strips over the joins give me the shits in wet weather, particularly the second one.

Have you found weighting the inside or outside peg makes much different to how slippery they feel in the wet?

hehe I get you on that one - they give the same shits...

I always back off throttle before I get to them, or maintain very constant low throttle settings. The last thing I want to do is accelerate or have an open throttle setting that produces lots of torque that can cause the tyre to break away on the reduced grip that the metal offers...

I find that the weighting of the pegs (either works) just settles the suspension and stability, and seems to (not sure if this is scientififcally correct) reduce weight movement between front and back wheels.

In that way I reckon it helps, since suddens changes in the suspension geometry (whether increased weight on it ior changes in lean angle) or means sudden changes in traction (the ability to soak up bumps and keep the wheel sticking to the road).

[R-Soul]

You are quite correct. Add a bit of peg-weighting, and the whole process becomes just that little bit smoother and stable. Everything I've ever read etc on the weighting subject has been for the outside. If the inside peg works for you, go for it, I guess. As long as you/bike are working together, and you are cornering safely and smoothly, I guess it's the riders choice??

I just checked on the Total Control book, and the author reckons that either is good and depends on rider comfort (although he says many instructors insist on outside peg). He cites one picture of Randy Mamola going around a corner with his outside foot off the peg completely.

In answering a question below, I might have stumbled on the reason why it settles the suspension - it could be because it effectively places your body weight off the handlebars and settles it midway beteen the front and back suspension- so that the bike can ride like it was designed to do.


I suppose it also makes a more rigid couplig with the bike at a lower height from the ground, thereby increasing stability. Whatever- it DEFINITELY works.

[p.dath]

This is an interesting artcile frm Keith Code from the Superbike School on steering:

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

[R-Soul]

Try it. Setting up before a left-hand corner - lift weight off seat and put weight on right footpeg - note where your body moves. Bike tilts right, body goes left, bike goes straight ahead like > , now MAINTAIN this posture and countersteer into the corner. Take care not to sit upright as you roll in.

Before you roll in, you must tilt the bike the opposite way. If you don't, the bike will begin to corner early.

Yes, I countersteer in teh opposite direction while I have pre-shifted my body weight to teh inside.

But what I am saying is that you can load either peg and move your body weight inside simultaneously - it does not have to be your outside one.


In fact in your example, if I put my weight onto right peg, I have to move my bodyweight to above the right peg, not so? Or else I will be pushing on it from a cantilevered or unsupported position, tiring my leg out and forcing me to support myself on my arms- which is not what you want, as you want loose arms.

And if I move my bodyweight above the right peg, how do I simultaneously get my bodyweight inside the line of the bike on the left? This is what I mean when I say these two actions dont reconcile- especially when you get the same effect from loading the inside peg peg anyway...

[avgas]

Found the meaning to life yet?

[R-Soul]

This is an interesting artcile frm Keith Code from the Superbike School on steering:

http://www.superbikeschool.com/machi...bs-machine.php

That is probably the most convincing proof ever of countersteering. It isolates what riders think they are doing to steer, from what they are actually doing.

To me this is probably one of the most important riding articles and experiments ever done. Wish I had read it when I was a teenager...

[R-Soul]

Found the meaning to life yet?

Yup, but I charge for the answer...