A month ago I watched a riding buddy die on the side of the road

[crazyhorse]

I think correct bike attire is a must, and I would be behind this if it was to be made compulsory.

I wouldn't let my son get on the bike if he wasn't in the right gear. No gear, no key.... He knows the rules now, but had to enforce that when he was learning to ride. Easy option out I guess, esp in the heat of our summer days

[Katman]

That'll never happen. Although, detune every bike out there back to the olden days and you might get somewhere

If we don't make a real effort to get rid of the culture ourselves you can be damned sure TPTB will make up whatever rules necessary to do it for us.

[onearmedbandit]

We need to get rid of the culture that says "Lets see who can get from A to B the fastest".

While I agree that this attitude has a lot to do with the reasons why motorcyclists continue to crash, this way of thinking is almost hard-wired in us all from a young age, maybe even something we are born with. It is this culture that has brought mankind to where we are today, it is responsible for everything from space travel to Sir Ed climbing Mt Everest. I'm not saying I've got the answer, or even if there is an answer.

[2wheeldrifter]

I think correct bike attire is a must, and I would be behind this if it was to be made compulsory.

I wouldn't let my son get on the bike if he wasn't in the right gear. No gear, no key.... He knows the rules now, but had to enforce that when he was learning to ride. Easy option out I guess, esp in the heat of our summer days

Well done pushing the "no key no bike to ride" until he wore the proper riding gear!

[yungatart]

We need to get rid of the culture that says "Lets see who can get from A to B the fastest".

I believe that this is happening, albeit slowly. I know several riders who have slowed down considerably in the last few years. A cruise or a pootle is now the norm for them.

That'll never happen. Although, detune every bike out there back to the olden days and you might get somewhere

See above. It is happening!
I know who I would rather ride with...and it ain't those who fill up on alcohol at every stop and ride at what they think is race pace to the next stop, in a determined efffort to prove they have a bigger cock.

As for detuning, what would that do? Because the culture of "go hard" riders will simply retune them back to full performance. It is the wrist doing the twisting that is the problem, not the power of the bike...in other words, the nut on the steering head.....

[p.dath]

How long have people been driving and riding for? 200yrs?
How many govt run, supported, sponsored, sanctioned driving/riding skill courses are there?

So you saying that because there is a lack of Government run programmes that means the Government is opposed to increased driver/rider training. That's preposterous.

That's like saying because there is no Government run tyre shops the Government doesn't support the use of tyres.

And you think the govt don't share the view held by the Police?
All it needs is you to come down in the last shower and discover the real truth eh.
Jim, knows his shit!

There is no doubt that JD can put forwards a very persuasive argument for his points of view.

JD has put forward the assertion that the "Government(tm)" is opposed to increased driver/rider training - because it creates complacent drivers/riders. I don't agree. In fact, I think it is laughable.
Perhaps you might like to put forward an argument as to why you think the Government is opposed? I can't say I have ever seen anything to make me think that any NZ Government has adopted this viewpoint.

Safety of participants is not an issue with road focussed training courses. We have never sent a participant off in an ambo in 12 years.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. Are you trying to say that because there are no accidents the training is better in every regard?

I could create a training program for riders. I could advise them not to put the ignition key in their motorcycle. Chances are my training program would have very few ambulance call outs. Does that suddenly make it a great all round training program. No.

By all means, only do road based training if that is what you feel is best for you. Personally I think we'll turn out better more well rounded riders by exposing them to a larger number of experiences, and that includes on-track training.
Everyone is free to decide for themselves. Those that agree with me will simply turn up to track based training programs and road based training programs.

[crazyhorse]

I believe that this is happening, albeit slowly. I know several riders who have slowed down considerably in the last few years. A cruise or a pootle is now the norm for them.

See above. It is happening!
I know who I would rather ride with...and it ain't those who fill up on alcohol at every stop and ride at what they think is race pace to the next stop, in a determined efffort to prove they have a bigger cock.

As for detuning, what would that do? Because the culture of "go hard" riders will simply retune them back to full performance. It is the wrist doing the twisting that is the problem, not the power of the bike...in other words, the nut on the steering head.....

Cars are faster today than they used to be............... so they too have this problem with the young trying to put their foot down. Bikes are way faster too, same reason. Correct - having a fast bike does not mean you have to ride it to its limit.

I don't believe there are many who ride and go out and get pissed up on alcohol as you may believe. I for one, generally only have a drink - or two depending on the length of the ride. I am also known to ask for a milkshake, or coffee too, and from what I have heard on KB lately, so too do alot of others.

Group rides do provoke some or most folk to ride outside their limits, and I believe at some point in time we have all given ourselves a scare or two. It is always a tragedy to hear of the plight of others, and as I have said before, it DOES make me think each time I get on the bike and go for a trundle.


Yes, occassionally we ride quick, but choose those times, and they too, are becoming alot less. Not everyone is for 'speed' it takes the enjoyment out of a ride. And you miss the scenery too!

[crazyhorse]

Well done pushing the "no key no bike to ride" until he wore the proper riding gear!

As a parent it was my duty to teach him correctly. Doesn't help that his father would wear shorts and tee-shirt in his earlier days, but I managed to get him to see reason.

I let him take my bike for a ride the other day, and told him if he wore his dragon jeans instead of the proper pants, forget it - so he turned up in his full suit, and had a great ride on it.

[James Deuce]

There is no doubt that JD can put forwards a very persuasive argument for his points of view.

JD has put forward the assertion that the "Government(tm)" is opposed to increased driver/rider training - because it creates complacent drivers/riders. I don't agree. In fact, I think it is laughable.
Perhaps you might like to put forward an argument as to why you think the Government is opposed? I can't say I have ever seen anything to make me think that any NZ Government has adopted this viewpoint.



I

It's not an assertion. It is fact.

As I said I've posted the quote from the source before and I'm simply not going there again. Email NZTA, MoT, and the Police and ask them if they support Advanced Driver training as a way of reducing accidents and deaths in NZ. You will not get the answer you expect.

The previous Traffic Superintendent is on record as opposing Advanced driver training, not because it makes drivers complacent, but because it makes them over-confident and causes accidents to happen at higher speeds with greater consequences. If you're going to quote me try not to change the message in the process.

[Ixion]

The binary gentleman is correct in his statements regarding the attitude of police and TQPKALTSA (The quango previously known as LTSA). Thy are opposed to ALL driver training or education other then that by licensed instructors ffollowing a syllabus deesigned around the requirements of the GDLS . And thus, inherently, opposed to all training once a driver/rider has a full licnce

The poistion is illogical and downright stupid. But, that is their position.

This imbecility colours all road safety in this country. Since it is a Bad Thing for people to be taught (or to learn) how to drive or ride safely, it is necessary to assume that they will crash. Therefore the focus of raod safety is on making the crashes (which are considered inevitable) more survivable. hence, lower speed limits, seat belts , air bags etc. Doesn't work for bikes (doesn't really work for cars, either, but massively unworks for bikes)

[p.dath]

The binary gentleman is correct in his statements regarding the attitude of police and TQPKALTSA (The quango previously known as LTSA). Thy are opposed to ALL driver training or education other then that by licensed instructors ffollowing a syllabus deesigned around the requirements of the GDLS . And thus, inherently, opposed to all training once a driver/rider has a full licnce

I don't know, but any chance this is an interpretation of the situation? I can understand why the "Government(tm)" supports "approved" courses by approved instructors. This would seem reasonable as it ensures all the training is done to a certain standard. Obviously they want certain things pushed, and by tightly controlling the training they can ensure this happens.

But does that necessarily mean they are opposed to other forms of advanced training? Once again, I don't know (never been involved in such a communication with "them"). Perhaps has this been implied because of a lack of vocal support from the Government, as opposed to the situation proposed - being that the Government is opposed to advanced driver/rider training?

[James Deuce]

Ask the Givernment and its agencies. As far as I'm concerned they've made their position very clear.

[Qkchk:Me]

rider training will only happen if its compulsory. Very few riders will pay for training (just the way it is).

Unfortunately this is too true. Most entry level riders (where I conduct the majority of my teachings) only want to do the bare minimum just so they can 'fast-track' their licence so they can get a larger capacity machine. I would like to see the NZTA revamp the system to a 'logged hours' (just like in attaining a PPL - pilots licence) situation with an instructor but also include this for cars as well.

[MSTRS:Me]

P.Dath - hear what Jim etc are saying...
The Govt does not support 'advanced' training because they believe that the resultant 'skilled' motorists will use that skill to drive/ride faster. The Govt's stated aim is to slow everyone down, so they are hardly likely to support initiatives that counter that.
As for track based training...I've never seen a road that is like a race track, so what good does finding my/bike's limits on a track going to do me on a road? When those limits are so much less on a road. Roads do not have the same room or surface or grip or runoffs or...or...or as a track does. You are fooling yourself if you think that track learned skills are the shizz on the road.

[CookMySock]

1. Rider training should be either compulsory or actively supported and encouraged because riding safely is a skill and skills can be learned.

Ditch the kiwi system and replace it with the french system.

2. The general public should be made aware of the consequences of causing a bike crash in the same way that they have been made aware of the consequences of causing a crash through speed or alcohol.

The general public doesn't give a fuck unless it affects them. Which it doesn't. Unless you aim for their drivers' door (or their female companions' door) then they get the message pronto, but strangely it will be the bikers' fault.

3. Motorcyclists should be encouraged and even coerced to wear all the gear all the time - should our lid be subject to a WOF in the same way (I think) diving gear is? I am loathe to introduce compulsion, but should we consider making jackets and gloves compulsory? It would certainly save a lot of scooter/commuter riders.

It doesn't need to be compulsory, but they should pay for a large proportion of the cost of the injury that was caused.

Ie,

no helmet and brain injury? Don't pass go.. $0

No kevlar pants, jacket or gloves? Skin lost is your problem.

No boots? Toes missing? Oops!

The only thing is, it's easy to add blame to the situation - hell if someone pulls out in front of you, prepared to be fined for not driving to the conditions, and hello ACC penalty! It's not your fucken fault, but you pay.


IMO, YMMV, etc, ad nauseum.
Steve