"Bold steps" by the g'ment - changes announced at 2pm today

[Pascal]

Lets see how anti-left you are when you or one of your family gets a serious illness or injury...

Blessed private health insurance. Because you see, under this socialist system when my daughter was diagnosed by the White Cross Emergency room with meningites and rushed to Starship hospital, it took 6 hours on the socialist health system to be seen. Time in which she could have died, where no matter how I tried to get her attention, they kept on telling me they couldn't see her yet.

Now I'm private. Now if something goes wrong my family gets treatment. Not excuses.

the reason people can't cope with socialism in the rest of the world is because they can't cope with the idea of giving their precious money (therefor expensive cars/property) away for the sake of a better country

You forget the poor people in the middle. Those who fall just outside the welfare brackets and who are caught in the punitive tax rates. For them their disposable income is next to fuck all. I know a fair number of people on lower incomes than myself who have more money to spend, thanks to the "redistribution of wealth". They get to afford Sky. New cars. (Well, less than 10 years old, leastways)

the reason people can't cope with socialism in the rest of the world is because they can't cope with the idea of giving their precious money (therefor expensive cars/property) away for the sake of a better country

Second point on your general quote. New Zealand really is not a country filled with helpless invalids that need other people to provide for them. We, as a country, provide free access to education. We provide a lot of services that empowers people to take themselves off the "poor" line and taking responsibility for their own lives. They don't need to government to take care of them. They need to step up and understand that changes to their position relative to the average income will not happen overnight. They will need to dedicate time and effort to making that change and it might not happen in their lifetime. But their children might have a better future. I know. My family went through that over the last three generations. It is the hard work of my forebears that got me to where I am today. And, with my hard work, my daughters will have a better position in life than I had. Hopefully they'll carry that on for their children. And in a few generations we might be "wealthy" too.

Unfortunately socialism takes that away from people. You keep on giving them something for nothing. Eventually they just stop doing anything for themselves, because the poor deluded fools in their "generosity" with other people's money have killed any incentive for them to do anything.

[mashman]

Second point on your general quote. New Zealand really is not a country filled with helpless invalids that need other people to provide for them. We, as a country, provide free access to education. We provide a lot of services that empowers people to take themselves off the "poor" line and taking responsibility for their own lives. They don't need to government to take care of them. They need to step up and understand that changes to their position relative to the average income will not happen overnight. They will need to dedicate time and effort to making that change and it might not happen in their lifetime. But their children might have a better future. I know. My family went through that over the last three generations. It is the hard work of my forebears that got me to where I am today. And, with my hard work, my daughters will have a better position in life than I had. Hopefully they'll carry that on for their children. And in a few generations we might be "wealthy" too.

You're missing 1 rather important thing there. Maybe the people that are living on the "breadline" are happy with their lives... maybe not their lot... but with their lives... that being the case, even in eutopia, these people would likely do exactly the same, irrespective of the resources available to them... it may well be that's just how they wish to live their lives. Unfortunately society does not allow these people to live their life their way! Therefore the only alternative is let them starve to death, have them commit crimes, essentially do something to get the green it takes to live their lives their way. You're assuming that they all want to work... Why? Because they obviously don't...

[Pascal]

it may well be that's just how they wish to live their lives. Unfortunately society does not allow these people to live their life their way! Therefore the only alternative is let them starve to death, have them commit crimes, essentially do something to get the green it takes to live their lives their way. You're assuming that they all want to work... Why? Because they obviously don't...

Why should they be allowed to live their lives as they want when I cannot because I have to pay for their lifestyle? If they don't want to work there is no reason for me to support them.

[mashman]

Why should they be allowed to live their lives as they want when I cannot because I have to pay for their lifestyle? If they don't want to work there is no reason for me to support them.

heh. You have no choice in the matter! If you believe that you accumulating money and stuff gives YOU a better lifestyle, then you're HUGELY mistaken... somewhere along the way people become happy. If that happens to be with them on the dole... then that's the way it is and you have no choice but to support them.

What gives you, or the government for that matter, the right to tell people that they have to work?

[avgas]

What gives you, or the government for that matter, the right to tell people that they have to work?

Darwin's Theory

[Pascal]

What gives you, or the government for that matter, the right to tell people that they have to work?

Absolutely nothing except hunger.

What gives them the right to expect me to feed them?

[MSTRS:Me]

What gives you, or the government for that matter, the right to tell people that they have to work?

Nothing. However, if the funds that allow them to live without working, were removed, then those people would have to find a(nother) way to feed, house and clothe themselves, wouldn't they?
Nobody says you have to work, but you do need to be responsible for you and yours.

[Ixion]

heh. You have no choice in the matter! If you believe that you accumulating money and stuff gives YOU a better lifestyle, then you're HUGELY mistaken... somewhere along the way people become happy. If that happens to be with them on the dole... then that's the way it is and you have no choice but to support them.

What gives you, or the government for that matter, the right to tell people that they have to work?

Oh, but we do have a choice. or, would if we had a sensible governmental system. Ever hear of work camps? Don't want to work? Fine. Mess hut is that way. They'll give you three square meals a day - provided you turn in the work chit your labour supervisor gives you when you complete each day's work assignment to has satisfaction. No chit, no meal.

What gives the State the right? Same right as membership of almost anything - you want to be a member, you follow the rules : which may be established by decree (KB) or by popular voice (a democracy, if anyone could ever find one); or anything in between. Don't want to follow the club rules? that's fine, but you won't be a member any more. Don't want to follow the rules of this society? That's fine, but you won't be a member of that society any more. Go find another country where the people are willing to support those who don't want to make any contribution to the society (note that I'm including things like writing poetry, bring up children as a contrbution) .

Vote Communist - for a society that benefits the worker, not the shirker. It's the only way that makes sense.

[MSTRS:Me]

Vote Communist - for a society that benefits the worker, not the shirker. It's the only way that makes sense.

No way. It's just another way to keep the masses in line (all right if 'you' are the Chairman)

The only system that is fair is one that allows everyone to do what they will, but not at the expense of anyone else. Anarchy rulz, OK?

[mashman]

Absolutely nothing except hunger.

What gives them the right to expect me to feed them?

There are plenty of ways to get food without having to use $$$...

Would you let them die if they couldn't feed themselves?

[SPman]

No way. It's just another way to keep the masses in line (all right if 'you' are the Chairman)

The only system that is fair is one that allows everyone to do what they will, but not at the expense of anyone else. Anarchy rulz, OK?

Anarchism in it's purest form, would be the ideal..everyone doing what they want but still doing their bit to help the community - unfortunately, like all other theoretical systems, communism, capitolism, every other -ism, it gets fucked up by those with giant ego's who want everything to work for them, and fuck everyone else!

[MSTRS:Me]

Anarchism in it's purest form, would be the ideal..everyone doing what they want but still doing their bit to help the community - unfortunately, like all other theoretical systems, communism, capitolism, every other -ism, it gets fucked up by those with giant ego's who want everything to work for them, and fuck everyone else!

Aint that the truth.
"I want..."

[mashman]

Nothing. However, if the funds that allow them to live without working, were removed, then those people would have to find a(nother) way to feed, house and clothe themselves, wouldn't they?
Nobody says you have to work, but you do need to be responsible for you and yours.

Pah! you think that they'd just say, "fair enough, i better start pulling my weight"??? What if the jobs aren't there to feed those you have removed funds from? how do you qualify for support? who gets priority, familiaes with kids? who decides the priority? but they would indeed find another way... and likely it wouldn't suit society!

And we wonder why people don't grasp the Woodhouse principles when it comes to ACC, when all we want to do is look after our own!

[MSTRS:Me]

I never said that is what should happen. However, there are plenty of people on the dole/whatever that would get a severe lesson in the need for self-responsibility, if it did.
I'm also not naive enough to think that many wouldn't just take what they want in other ways.
People like that are always gonna be a problem...for everyone else.

[SPman]

Good post but I disagree with the above. At the moment 10% of taxpayers pay 73% of the total tax take. 10%!!! In an egalitarian society that is blatantly unfair. Somehow we need to rebalance this equation so the responsibility for tax is spread more fairly. Increased GST and a flat tax are by far the most simple answers, plus a reduction in the Working For Families threshold.

10% of people have more income than the bottom 50 % of us combined. The net wealth of 10% of people is 20 times the wealth of 50% of us combined. In fact, the wealthiest 10% have more wealth than everyone else put together. 70% of kiwis earn less than $40,000 a year.
So of course they will pay more tax!!!!