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Thread: AA March 2010 Policy Meeting

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    AA March 2010 Policy Meeting

    This is a long email that I received today (12/4/2010). I have not had time to fully digest it or respond yet, but thought it is bound to be of interest to others.

    It was from Mark Stockdale, the senior policy analyst for the AA.

    Hi Philip, I am writing to give you an update from the meetings the AA has held with the Minister for ACC Nick Smith and opposition Labour spokesperson David Parker.

    In each case we sought to understand their policies on full funding and risk rating, particularly in relation to the ACC Motor Vehicle Account. We opened our meetings by noting the concern that had been expressed to the AA by our Members, particularly motorcyclists, in relation to the levy increases. We also reported the growing concern and public debate regarding the move away from the original Scheme principles and commented that whilst this had been off the agenda there now appeared to be some public support to debate the ‘Woodhouse Principles’. We noted the AA did not currently have a particular policy on this and that our submissions on the levies had only focussed on the proposed increases and not the policies that led to them as they were not up for review or part of the consultation, but the public response suggested it was timely to establish whether there was an opportunity to debate them.

    I can advise that both the Government and Labour party fully support the principle of fully-funding the ACC scheme. While comparisons with pay-as-you-go (paygo) funding for superannuation, health, education etc. have been made by commentators, neither ministers accept these arguments. They said none of these involve avoidable costs (e.g. related to ageing) whereas motor vehicle accidents are avoidable. They were both very concerned about today’s accident costs being imposed on future generations, and that these liabilities will increase over time. There also didn’t seem to be much disagreement about those projected liabilities, with much of the recent increases due to one-off accounting changes or asset devaluations and some changes in the scope of cover (but not in the motor vehicle account).

    Labour commented that cost blow-outs and levy spikes had occurred in the past under paygo when reserves were run down and asserted a “proper funding model” avoids this. Labour also holds that the Scheme was originally intended to be fully funded and that it would be “wrong in principle” to move to paygo.

    The Governments position is that full funding is needed to send safety messages to levy payers by ensuring those who incur the costs pay for them and that they are not deferred for later generations.

    Similarly, both the Government and Labour support an element of ‘risk rating’ between motor vehicle classes (e.g. cars and bikes) to encourage road users to make safer choices, and believe that averaging the motor vehicle levy across all classes would be unfair to car owners. The Government wants motorists to be more focussed on safety by incentivising the uptake of safety equipment via the levy. However, Labour was cautious about this, and was concerned that risk rating according to vehicle technology (ABS, ESC) or driver/rider history could be complex and costly to implement and could disadvantage low income NZers who cannot afford to upgrade to more expensive, safer vehicles.

    Regarding the new levies, both the Government and Labour support motorcycle owners paying more than car owners on account of their increased accident and injury risk. It was also mentioned that the motorcycle levy, even at the higher proposed levels, didn’t cover the cost of motorcycle-fault accidents unlike the car levy. However, both were supportive of the new $30 motorcycle safety levy and National want to use that to emulate the success in Victoria to increase rider training and reduce motorcycle accidents. The AA is part of a working group comprising motorcycle user and industry representatives who have met with Transport Minister Steven Joyce to discuss developing a motorcycle safety strategy. But we are concerned at the limited dedicated-rider representation on this (only Ulysses) and would welcome your ideas on how this group can be widened to other credible user groups.

    Regarding any future levy increases, based on our meetings with the ACC Minister we do not anticipate that the new differential(s) between car and motorcycle levies (approx. double in the case of >600cc ‘bikes) are likely to be increased further, however it is not certain whether there will be another across-the-board levy increase next year for the motor vehicle account.

    So, in summary, there is no major political party support at all for a move from full-funding to paygo for the motor vehicle account, or reverting to an aggregate rate for all motor vehicles irrespective of class risk.

    We presented this information to the AA National Council at their March meeting for discussion. They reaffirmed the AA’s policy to support differentiation in motor vehicle levies according to class risk, and agreed that, based on the lack of political support, the AA should not seek a review of the full-funding principle. However, they also agreed that the AA would not support any attempts to raise the differential between cars and motorbikes any further.

    Thanks for your input into this analysis, I am happy to keep you informed of any developments regarding the motorcycle working group and safety initiatives if you like.

  2. #2
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    That's a lot of wordage to say 'Get stuffed'

    Well, we (you, anyway) tried to play nice. Thanks for trying, though I can't say I'm surprised at the result.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    This world has lost it's drive, everybody just wants to fit in the be the norm as it were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Vincent
    The manufacturers go to a lot of trouble to find out what the average rider prefers, because the maker who guesses closest to the average preference gets the largest sales. But the average rider is mainly interested in silly (as opposed to useful) “goodies” to try to kid the public that he is riding a racer

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ixion View Post
    That's a lot of wordage to say 'Get stuffed'

    Well, we (you, anyway) tried to play nice. Thanks for trying, though I can't say I'm surprised at the result.
    No regrets. It was worth a try. As they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    Also of interest is the political "will" being indicated. In that both parties support full fiunding, and both parties support risk rating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by p.dath View Post
    Also of interest is the political "will" being indicated. In that both parties support full fiunding, and both parties support risk rating.
    I am disgusted by the way Labour lied to us, and used us for points scoring.
    Where does it leave us? Don't pay regos and fuck 'em?
    Do you realise how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by p.dath View Post
    No regrets. It was worth a try. As they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained.

    Also of interest is the political "will" being indicated. In that both parties support full fiunding, and both parties support risk rating.
    Exactly, and if not tried you would alway wonder if it would have helped.

    So it basically counts out politics/election year as a deciding point for the campaign. Is it time to start burning things yet?
    "A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSTRS View Post
    I am disgusted by the way Labour lied to us, and used us for points scoring.
    Where does it leave us? Don't pay regos and fuck 'em?
    Also note the comment about the likely increase in ACC fees again next year - for everyone.

    I suspect that even if 10,000 motorcyclists stopped paying their rego's that because of the huge number of cars it wouldn't upset their books. They would simply increase the levy again to counter it.
    However I bet the governement would start targeting rego checks, and might end up making just as much money through fines ...

    All in all, a dissapointing result. If those in Government, and the opposition, both support full funding and risk rating then it would be a considerable battle to change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by p.dath View Post
    Also note the comment about the likely increase in ACC fees again next year - for everyone.

    I suspect that even if 10,000 motorcyclists stopped paying their rego's that because of the huge number of cars it wouldn't upset their books. They would simply increase the levy again to counter it.
    However I bet the governement would start targeting rego checks, and might end up making just as much money through fines ...

    All in all, a dissapointing result. If those in Government, and the opposition, both support full funding and risk rating then it would be a considerable battle to change.
    I wonder if next years increas will be a flat rate, or a percentage though, my bet is the later.

    Similarly, both the Government and Labour support an element of ‘risk rating’ between motor vehicle classes (e.g. cars and bikes) to encourage road users to make safer choices, and believe that averaging the motor vehicle levy across all classes would be unfair to car owners. The Government wants motorists to be more focussed on safety by incentivising the uptake of safety equipment via the levy. However, Labour was cautious about this, and was concerned that risk rating according to vehicle technology (ABS, ESC) or driver/rider history could be complex and costly to implement and could disadvantage low income NZers who cannot afford to upgrade to more expensive, safer vehicles.
    And this, basically it says we plan to tax bikers off the roads, well thats my take on it anyway. Pisses me off more than a little, bikers generally are well aware of the risks they face and decide that riding is worth it, now the governement decides we are safer not to ride at all, Nanny State at its worst. And tbh, how much effect will taxing us off the roads have anyway, I suppose some will no longer be able to afford the rego, but I wonder what else will get removed from budget so they can afford the rego.

    - John (pissed off and ready to take action)
    "A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal

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    A considerable battle , but not an impossible one. National , I can't see it happening. But Labour, although their official policy is full funding, my reading is a lot of the rank and file MPs are unconvinced. And , whereas National has a philosophical reason to fully fund (because it is necessary for a selloff), Labour does not. They have no reason , politically, to want full funding.

    And, as we come up to next years election, Labour will be looking for points of difference - at present Labour is very much in a 'me -too' position. Removing full funding gives them a difference, it could well be popular with the electorate (at any rate, lower levies would be), it affects everyone not just bikers, and it gives a guarantee that they won't sell ACC off - so they can attack national on the basis that the latter will.
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    This world has lost it's drive, everybody just wants to fit in the be the norm as it were.
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Vincent
    The manufacturers go to a lot of trouble to find out what the average rider prefers, because the maker who guesses closest to the average preference gets the largest sales. But the average rider is mainly interested in silly (as opposed to useful) “goodies” to try to kid the public that he is riding a racer

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    God, that pisses me off. No I don't have anything constuctive to add to the thread. I'm just sitting here being angry.

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    If we should pay via class risk - people movers, vans and other 7+ seaters etc need a seperate class with massive increase in acc - seems to be an increase in multiple person injury accidents involving these vehicles...

    Anyway - why is the bloody AA advising on motorcycle safety?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSTRS View Post
    I am disgusted by the way Labour lied to us, and used us for points scoring.
    Where does it leave us? Don't pay regos and fuck 'em?
    Yep.

    One argument they have that is fundamentaly flawed is the class fees. How can an SV650 be more riskier to ride than a 600 multi ?

    The 600 has way more power. I've put my rego for my 1000 on hold over winter. Might even extend that to its max and run the gauntlet - fuck em.
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    The time for talk has been and gone. Now is the time for civil disobedience.
    If it wasn't for a concise set of rules, we might have to resort to common sense!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Max Preload View Post
    The time for talk has been and gone. Now is the time for civil disobedience.
    We will have the Rape crisis peeps with us on May 1st, they love civil disobedience.
    http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...s-protest-ride

  14. #14
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    I've emailed Goff with a pointed question:


    Dear Mr Goff

    The email below is a reply from the AA to one of our members on Kiwi Biker.
    Am I correct in coming to the conclusion that all the speeches and support we received from you and your colleagues in the Labour party were just lies and opportunism?

    Regards

    Pixie




    Hi Philip, I am writing to give you an update from the meetings the AA has held with the Minister for ACC Nick Smith and opposition Labour spokesperson David Parker.

    In each case we sought to understand their policies on full funding and risk rating, particularly in relation to the ACC Motor Vehicle Account........etc

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    In amongst all that, I note that any talk about training is always "rider training"!

    what about "driver training"?

    Train "drivers" to acknowledge and accept that motorcyclists are a legitimate and legal form of transport!

    And that "all" other motorists must "share the road" with them!

    That would be a good start in bringing motorcycle accident rates down for a start!

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