Countersteering vs body leaning?

[onearmedbandit]

I was thinking maybe it had something to do with the Twilight Zone, but all joking aside, I'd honestly like to know how he did this. I've seen the no bs bike in action and read all about it, but I witnessed this first hand.

[schrodingers cat]

There are correct techniques and ones that are ineffective or plain wrong. Why not practice using correct techniques until they become the only way you do the action and then are the way you behave or respond in an emergency?

There is a lot about riding a motorcycle which is not natural and that is why inexperienced and untrained riders will for example:1)too hot into a corner, brake, stand the bike up and run wide off the road;2) close the throttle in a bend when the rear spins up resulting in a high side; 3)looks at that object on the road and runs into it; 4) in emergency braking when the rear slides 'naturally steers' the bike into a low side. To respond correctly in these situations requires practicing correct techniques until those become so ingrained they become the only way you respond.

Absolutely agree. Hence tha asking in the first place. If instructed properly I have ability to 'retrain' my head fairly quicky and apply new technique. Many thanks to those who have posted a sensible reasoned, on-topic response

[bogan]

I was thinking maybe it had something to do with the Twilight Zone, but all joking aside, I'd honestly like to know how he did this. I've seen the no bs bike in action and read all about it, but I witnessed this first hand.

think its the trail of the forks, onces the bike is leaned over (by weighting a peg or weight transfer) there is a small force acting outwards (form corner center) from the bottom of the tyre. Same as if you put a shopping trolley on two wheels, the front will turn in.

[rustic101]

This is a good description, including the maths:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle...cycle_dynamics

Loved it and it answered my question about how I steer when riding with no hands:

No hands

While countersteering is usually initiated by applying torque directly to the handlebars, on lighter vehicles such as bicycles, it can also be accomplished by shifting the rider’s weight. If the rider leans to the right relative to the bike, the bike will lean to the left to conserve angular momentum, and the combined center of mass will remain in the same vertical plane. This leftward lean of the bike, called counter lean by some authors,[22] will cause it to steer to the left and initiate a right-hand turn as if the rider had countersteered to the left by applying a torque directly to the handlebars.[25] Note that this technique may be complicated by additional factors such as headset friction and stiff control cables.

Mind you this has raised more question than answer - I need to dive into google again....

[onearmedbandit]

think its the trail of the forks, onces the bike is leaned over (by weighting a peg or weight transfer) there is a small force acting outwards (form corner center) from the bottom of the tyre. Same as if you put a shopping trolley on two wheels, the front will turn in.

So weighting a peg or weight transfer will make a bike lean...?

[bogan]

yeh, weighting the peg will push the rider to the other side, and reaction opposite dictates the bike goes the other way.

[CookMySock]

I watched an international racer and certified trainer move the bars on his bike by simply moving the weight from peg to peg at a recent training course. He was standing up on the pegs, and not touching the bars. The bike was sharply turning left and right, and you could see the bars moving. How did he do this?

As was mentioned earlier, tipping the bike to the left will rotate the bars to the right.. in effect initiating a left turn. Debate on about whether the actual bar turn initiated the corner or the weight shift!

In the end it does not matter! Again, as was mentioned earlier - weight shifting (regardless of the order of effects and actions) is not nearly a direct enough input to swerve the bike, and as such must be of secondary use to the rider.

So weight-shifting cannot be used as a primary input when a large rate of change is required. Weight-shifting is only of any use when having to conserve the angle of lean for performance or safety reasons, or for entertainment.

Weight-shifting is also useful in closed-in spaces at low speed, where there is no room around the bike to use the bars.

Steve

[sinfull]

So weighting a peg or weight transfer will make a bike lean...?

How DO you do that ?

Never been able to suss how to underline something in a quote !

As was mentioned earlier, tipping the bike to the left will rotate the bars to the right.. in effect initiating a left turn. Debate on about whether the actual bar turn initiated the corner or the weight shift!

In the end it does not matter! Again, as was mentioned earlier - weight shifting (regardless of the order of effects and actions) is not nearly a direct enough input to swerve the bike, and as such must be of secondary use to the rider.

So weight-shifting cannot be used as a primary input when a large rate of change is required. Weight-shifting is only of any use when having to conserve the angle of lean for performance or safety reasons, or for entertainment.

Weight-shifting is also useful in closed-in spaces at low speed, where there is no room around the bike to use the bars.

Steve

"read what Steve says. He's right."

[onearmedbandit]

As was mentioned earlier, tipping the bike to the left will rotate the bars to the right.. in effect initiating a left turn. Debate on about whether the actual bar turn initiated the corner or the weight shift!




Steve

I would've thought you would have picked up on that I knew that, after all I did quote a post of yours where that's pretty much what I said. Unfortunately I don't think you've read the other posts where people have sworn that this is not possible.

[onearmedbandit]

How DO you do that ?

Never been able to suss how to underline something in a quote !

Replace the ( with [ in this example. (u)text you want to underline(/u).

[sinfull]

Replace the ( with [ in this example. text you want to underline

Ahaaaaa......

[davebullet]

So weighting a peg or weight transfer will make a bike lean...?

Yes - but not, by itself, turn.

[Pro Rider]

If you get a chance to come out for a days training at the racetrack at one of the Pro Rider days ( dates for Ruapuna in the spring will be up soon) then you will have a chance to work on all of those skills, we cover countersteering, weighting pegs, body positioning as part of the Steering Skills and all in the safety of the track with the same 14 corners. http://www.prorider.co.nz

[schrodingers cat]

If you get a chance to come out for a days training at the racetrack at one of the Pro Rider days ( dates for Ruapuna in the spring will be up soon) then you will have a chance to work on all of those skills, we cover countersteering, weighting pegs, body positioning as part of the Steering Skills and all in the safety of the track with the same 14 corners. http://www.prorider.co.nz

Goodo - sent you an e-mail earlier this week enquiring about dates...

[cowpoos]

Read a couple of really interesting articles recently.


http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0110_art/index.html

http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0302_art/index.html

THe discuss the mechanics of counter steering vs Body leaning.

My question is: They talk about weighting the footpegs to influence the chassis. I can sort of see what they are getting at but wind myself into knots experimenting on the (empty) road.

Can someone please explain in detail the hows/whats/Whyfors of this?
Esp the appropriate timing and sequence of the rider inputs

To ride a motorcycle around a corner on a road/track at any speed above the point of falling over, you have to counter steer.

Sorry to those that suggest otherwise....they are wrong.