Warning- for when you up the pace.

[beyond]

Well, my fellow rider, not sure of your experience level or the validation or credentials you have to back up such expert information...... choke choke......... however in my view, your position and state of mind is echoed through out the young dumb and full of cum mentality that is prevalent on todays roads on 2 wheels.
I have seen oh so many times, young people on learners riding rice rockets capable of speeds excess of 200km/p/hr.... This is like putting a loaded gun in the hands of a 4 year old, and just as destructive.
I have ben riding nearly 30 years, I started on trail bikes, then motorcross and was well learned in riding long before I hit the roads at 15. The trail bikes I road were monsters 2 stroke and 4 strokes and some had insane power bands to thrill and spill.
My advice to any knuckle duster who wishes to whiten his/ her knuckles, buy a trail bike and hit the dirt. I think at least 4 years dirt tracking and learning to handle bikes in slush, mud and sawdust is a pre requisite to any thrill seeking on the roads. We have enough dead novice riders out there upping the statistics and making our lifestyle more and more expensive.....

yes 99% of us are tempted to speed and open up the can of potential....... however, 9% of those bikers refrain the urge and behave in a mature and sensible manner according to the law. ( I do my best, and for the most part succeed. Being thee for my family in the long term is more important than ending up a statistic on NZ roads)

Yep, you're right. I've only been riding for 35 years and have only done several hundred thousand km's on motorbikes starting with high powered two strokes, so I'm not really qualified at all. Thanks for pointing that out, I'll get my coat on the way out.

[mashman]

well if you are going at 10kmhr, you can easily stop in under 5m, one certainly hopes you have more vision than 5m to see if theres any gravel etc coming up. The point about buffers though, if you are going rounds a corner without pushing it and see gravel, you can easily slow to a speed you can safely ride over it, if you are pushing it, you need to slow down more which take longer till you get to a safe speed to ride over the gravel, same goes for things turning across you path.... Though I agree you can't manage others risk, but you can try and educate em!

There's no substitute for PERSONAL experience. whilst all of the theories in the world may well have been proven, until you have to squeeze the brakes that hard, until you hit that patch, until whatever happens, you'll not know what it feels like. That sort of experience can only, truly, be learned on the road, the place where you spend 99.9% of your time. The buffer ideal is great, but it's ultimately flawed as accidents can still occur whilst you're well within your buffer, shit happens... Also everyones buffer will be different, we all have different bikes, with different setups and with VERY different riders... some take tyre temp into consideration, some feel themselves out to see if today is a good day for a blast, some take hundreds of factors into account before they twist the throttle, to make sure they are up to riding at the pace that's been chosen... but that isn't good enough for some. That's all I'd ask of anyone, but I won't ask them not to twist the throttle.

Even at 10kmh it can all go horribly wrong... I've twisted the throttle thinking I was in second, when actually I was in first and smacked myself in the face with the petrol tank (embarrassing yet very funny)... it was a simple accident, I didn't go down, nothing, BUT it could have turned out very differently (I could have pulled to the right and ended up under a car)... you cannot stop an accident from happening.

[mashman]

Fuck me - sounds like you should stick to driving a car.

Sounds like you should open the front door of the bubble and take a little wiff of reality... And i'll pass on the fucking if that's ok...

It makes me laugh when I read motorcyclists defending irresponsible riding when, if the discussion was about irresponsible driving, they'd be braying for blood.

Ever heard the saying that starts "Better to remain silent and be thought an idiot............."?

I'm not saying there aren't those that don't just twist and go without thought, without the appropriate gear, without taking EVERYTHING you need to into consideration, but irresponsible riding can take place at 10kmh or 100kmh and isn't restricted to just idiots... remember, your idiocy is someone elses normality, learn to live with it or you're going to be a very disappointed little kitty, because that's what us human beings get up to whilst you're not looking...

I don't mind being thought of as an idiot... stay silent and learn nothing, or say something completely wrong and receive an education... actually sorry for the bum advice above, don't open the bubble, stay nice and cost and safe in there...

[MSTRS:Me]

... you cannot stop an accident from happening.

No, you can't. That's why it's an accident. They are also quite rare.
Crashes on the other hand...

[mashman]

No, you can't. That's why it's an accident. They are also quite rare.
Crashes on the other hand...

cheeky bugga... a crash is still an accident unless deemed to be otherwise by the powers that be...

[Katman]

you cannot stop an accident from happening.

So you wouldn't bother to advise your kids that it's not wise to run with those scissors?

Far better to let them learn from experience.

[Milts]

So you wouldn't bother to advise your kids that it's not wise to run with those scissors?

He's using 'accident' in a different sense of the word you muppet.

[T.W.R]

Ditto

[Katman]

He's using 'accident' in a different sense of the word you muppet.

I think you should read up on the definition of the word 'accident'.

[MSTRS:Me]

cheeky bugga... a crash is still an accident unless deemed to be otherwise by the powers that be...

Yea I know.
I have a problem with the terminology though. Accident is the term used, but part of the meaning of that word suggests that it was an unavoidable event. When clearly, in most cases, avoidable was definitely present, at least in the moments directly before the crash.

It may be a subtle thing, but it is one of those PC words that allows participants to say/think things like 'It was an accident. I didn't mean for it to happen. There was nothing I could have done to avoid it. Therefore it wasn't my fault'

[R-Soul]

More BULLSHIT. As soon as you twist the throttle and obtain a speed of 10kmh the back can step out and you end up under a truck. I would have thought you would have had some new material by now ... If there's diesel/much/gravel on the road you're shit out of luck, even at 10kmh...

Its not only about speed. Its about HOW you are riding. Whether you are pushing the limits. If you have teh throttle wide open, teh chances are higher of your tyre breaking away. The buffer is smaller.

If you are accelerating hard as the road splits to two lanes, and a car pulls in front of you, the buffer is lower. If you are accelarating gently, the buffer is bigger.

No bullshit. Fact.

Yes there will be incidents that will clear any buffer zones you have (like diesel on a corner or whatever).

If you mis-judge something, which is all any given fuckup is, the outcome may have nothing to do with skillset whatsoever, you could be travelling at 100 or 50 and still have the same injuries... statistically you're supposed to come off worse the faster you are going, but that's not always the case (and you can't recreate the incident at a quicker or slower speed to prove otherwise). You can't manage everyone else's risk.

Now who is spouting bullshit. Why do you think you would be more likely to misjudge things? Because you are going too fast or because you are under high G's from acceleration or hard braking? Nobody ever lost control on a corner (outside of external influences like diesel on the road) because they were riding well within their personal comfort zone. Yet according to ACC there seems to be 50% 9rather significant "statistical" number dont you think?) of bike accidents out there that are single vehicle accidents where the rider has lost control all by themself. I suggest that they were ALL pushing their boundaries. Bad idea on the road.

Yes, some low speed accidents do end up being really bad anyways. But lets face it

You can't manage everyone else's risk.

No- only your own. but you do that by being honest about what is affecting your risk in the first place.

[Milts]

I think you should read up on the definition of the word 'accident'.

Given the context of the statement, he was using the word 'accident' to mean 'something unforseable/unnavoidable by the persons involved', in contrast with a 'crash' which could be taken to mean a crash which was aviodable if somebody had taken appropriate precautions. If you can't spot the difference in usage of words there then you're going to have a hard time coming up with a comprehensive argument.

Running with sissors would clearly fall into the second category above because it (should be) a forseeable and avoidable 'crash' as opposed to an unnavoidable 'accident'.

Edit: beaten to it.

[mashman]

So you wouldn't bother to advise your kids that it's not wise to run with those scissors?

Far better to let them learn from experience.

To a certain degree that's exactly what I do... I explain to them why it's best not to run with scissors, but I don't expect them to take my word for anything, because they'll either listen or they won't... Put it this way, i'm prepared for a trip to the hospital should that accident happen.

[mashman]

Yea I know.
I have a problem with the terminology though. Accident is the term used, but part of the meaning of that word suggests that it was an unavoidable event. When clearly, in most cases, avoidable was definitely present, at least in the moments directly before the crash.

It may be a subtle thing, but it is one of those PC words that allows participants to say/think things like 'It was an accident. I didn't mean for it to happen. There was nothing I could have done to avoid it. Therefore it wasn't my fault'

Lol, another bloody word nazi ... So you didn't mean it to happen, it's an accident? I doubt people go out on their bikes with that aim in mind lol... therefore every crash is an accident unless you're actively going out to crash?

[bogan]

There's no substitute for PERSONAL experience. whilst all of the theories in the world may well have been proven, until you have to squeeze the brakes that hard, until you hit that patch, until whatever happens, you'll not know what it feels like. That sort of experience can only, truly, be learned on the road, the place where you spend 99.9% of your time. The buffer ideal is great, but it's ultimately flawed as accidents can still occur whilst you're well within your buffer, shit happens... Also everyones buffer will be different, we all have different bikes, with different setups and with VERY different riders... some take tyre temp into consideration, some feel themselves out to see if today is a good day for a blast, some take hundreds of factors into account before they twist the throttle, to make sure they are up to riding at the pace that's been chosen... but that isn't good enough for some. That's all I'd ask of anyone, but I won't ask them not to twist the throttle.

Even at 10kmh it can all go horribly wrong... I've twisted the throttle thinking I was in second, when actually I was in first and smacked myself in the face with the petrol tank (embarrassing yet very funny)... it was a simple accident, I didn't go down, nothing, BUT it could have turned out very differently (I could have pulled to the right and ended up under a car)... you cannot stop an accident from happening.

I may be wrong, but most of us don't want to know what it feels like to 'hit that patch' at too great a speed. Of course things can go wrong when you have a buffer, the point of it is they are a lot less likely to. So while you are probably going to want to push it every now and then, which can be beneficial for learning the bikes limits etc, it's a bloody good idea to do it where you are not going to need as big a buffer, well known roads which you know the surface is good and have good vision etc.

And as MSTRS says, a true accident is quite rare, I've had 1, and had another avoidable one, and hundreds of offs on the dirt cos I was pushing it.