Serious question about police resources and equipment

[98tls]

Its an age old argument eh Mike...damned if they do and damned if they dont.
Personally, I say no to arming cops. Even if they had been armed yesterday, the outcome would probably have been the same, why? because they (the police) did not anticipate a firearm being used against them. If they did, then, and only then, would the outcome yesterday be different. It would have ben the AOS facing off, not two cops and a dog.

Yea pretty much mate but i am for arming them,sure they didnt anticipate a firearm but the outcome might have been different if they had had them readily available.As it was they didnt have a chance in hell.

[Pixie]

Yep, every time the cops shoot someone there's a hue and cry from someone. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.



Cool!! I'd be a starter for paying to throw rotten stuff and shit at them. Maybe for extra you could shove it in their faces, rub it through their hair (if they have any) etc.

**stuff like this brings out the worst in me......**

Sometimes they shoot an innocent bystander.
Sometimes they fail to hit a rottie that is only 10 feet away.
Sometimes they shoot themselves in training.

No cheapskate keystone cop NZ bullshit.Arm them.Train them to use the guns properly.Test their arms skills every month and if it is not up to international standards give them a desk job.

The moment those cops detected dope smoke they should have gone in with guns drawn.

[marty]

A good friend of mine and a very close colleague would probably still be alive if they had have been armed as a matter of course. everyone's entitled to their opinion, but cops (as does everyone who goes to work) deserve the best opportunities to go home to their families in other than a hospital bed or wooden box at the end of their shift

[98tls]

A good friend of mine and a very close colleague would probably still be alive if they had have been armed as a matter of course. everyone's entitled to their opinion, but cops (as does everyone who goes to work) deserve the best opportunities to go home to their families in other than a hospital bed or wooden box at the end of their shift

Well put Marty,what i dont get is the acceptance that scumbuckets have guns but the reluctance to at least put coppers on an equal footing.

[BoristheBiter]

A good friend of mine and a very close colleague would probably still be alive if they had have been armed as a matter of course. everyone's entitled to their opinion, but cops (as does everyone who goes to work) deserve the best opportunities to go home to their families in other than a hospital bed or wooden box at the end of their shift

Too true.
Also the abilaty able to buy your own protection, whether that is body armour, weapons or training.
The days of just rocking up to a house with a warrant and a couple of cops are long gone and it is about time the ones at the top start paying attention, that goes for the assocition aswell.
Just look at how they do it in the UK, van of coppers in full armour crash the doors in, not as it is done here knock on the door and ask to be let in.
Those days are gone and it is time the NZ police caught up.

[Banditbandit]

This is always going to be a difficult issue ... I'm against arming the cops ... because it will just be an arms race with the crims ... and the crims will win ... Sure a few will get shot along the way ... and so will more cops ... but the crims are not limited by the law (that's the nature of crims) while the police generally are ...

And there's an awful lot of very dangerous weapons out here ... have a look at Jan Molenaar's collection ... it included an SLR assault rifle (and there are thousands of them out there that our own army sold on trhe open market when they swapped to the Steyrs) and various other military weapons ... there's AK47s, Armalites and Colts ... I've even seen shoulder-launched and four-barrel missile launchers. It won't take long for the crims to get their hands on such weapons ...

Secondly, unfortunately, in both the Chch incident yesterday and the Jan Molenaar case, armed police would not have had time to respond ... both time the guman fired first ... with no warning that was going to happen. How long does it take to get a pistol out of a holder, compared to swinging a rifle and pulling the trigger ?

Now, I also happen to think that both gunmen should get a bullet through the head (Jan Molenaar did it to himself ... yesterday in Chch the shooter gave himself up ... should be shot) ... so I'm not a wimping liberal ... I favour the death penalty .. some people don't deserve to stay alive ...
and we're safer without them around ..

Thirdly, the cops can't shoot ... If a cop has a gun then the safest place to be is where he's pointing it ... none of them can hit a rottie at three paces ... they shot Halatau Naitoko accidenetally when they missed a gunman at about 10 feet on the Auckland motorway ... in Napier many years ago a police offer shot at a dog across the bonnet of his car, missed the dfog and the bullet bounced of a driveway and slammed into a sitting room wall just above where a baby was sleeping ... any halfway decent hunter in this country is a better shot ... and pistols are very close range weapons - with a pistol bystanders are in even nore danger ... and bodies don't necessarily stop in human bodies ... I've seen two deer killed by one shot - straight through one and into the other ... in a city who knows where the bullet will end up ...

Yes, I agree that we are becoming a violent country - we need to address the issues that make this so. Detterent sentences do not work - We have the second highest imprisonment rates in the world - violent crime is increasing ... Many states in the US have the death penalty - the ultimate deterrent you'd think .. but plenty of murders still happen ... (I don't argue that the death penalty is a deterent - it's not - but it removes the danger completely and forever ...) why are the "solutions" offered by the hard liners not working? When will you realise that your solutions are not working?

We have fundamentally lost respect in this country - for each other, for the police (Yeah, I can be pretty hard on the police, but as human beings doing a dangerous and difficult job they have my respect - and I'd never think of shooting one). Why do we hate each other so much? We hate the boy racers .. we hate the bikers .. we hate the dope smokers ... we hate the poor ... we hate anyone who is not like us ... the level of anger between people in this country is not the country I grew up in ... if you hate someone so much, of course some crazies are going to start shooting ... look at the language in this thread .. I doubt anyone here would pull a gun, but the verbal suggestion can be made .. and them someone slightly crazier is going to do it ... "You wanna shoot me? I'll get in first ..."

So that's enough of a rave .. don't arm the police ... it will just make things worse ...

[Banditbandit]

Too true.
Also the abilaty able to buy your own protection, whether that is body armour, weapons or training.
The days of just rocking up to a house with a warrant and a couple of cops are long gone and it is about time the ones at the top start paying attention, that goes for the assocition aswell.
Just look at how they do it in the UK, van of coppers in full armour crash the doors in, not as it is done here knock on the door and ask to be let in.
Those days are gone and it is time the NZ police caught up.

Yeah that programme makes me laugh .. the cops go in boots and all ..and what do they get? The offenders get a slap on the hand with a wet bus ticket ... Only once a programme, if that, does someone go to jail ...

[Headbanger]

The cops have ready access to guns, and specialist armed units.

There is no need for them to be strapped on every hip, certainly not without massive resources pumped into training and weeding out the many not worthy or capable of that responsibility.

The cops that were shot at had the opportunity to make a judgment call and bring in some fire power before proceeding.

If you arm every wanker with a badge then you will have fuckwits having gun battles over traffic tickets and we will soon have the shithole situation like they do in the good ol USA, Fuckwits with guns on both sides,prepared to use them to protect their safety.

Any officer is free to work in another industry if they are not happy about not being issued with a personal weapon.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Well put Marty,what i dont get is the acceptance that scumbuckets have guns but the reluctance to at least put coppers on an equal footing.

That sums up my view perfectly.

[HenryDorsetCase]

Well put Marty,what i dont get is the acceptance that scumbuckets have guns but the reluctance to at least put coppers on an equal footing.

That sums up my view perfectly.

[Scuba_Steve]

In light of the fact that two po po were out doing their jobs today and got shot for their troubles, why THE HELL shouldn't they be strapped as a matter of course? Glock on the hip, shotguns in the car, and a decent anti ballistic vest?

Even two fucking muppets with a few pot plants and psychiatric trouble have a .22 and a .308 these days. These guys had their Taser (oh yeah, in the CAR!)

As a taxpayer, I am happy to fund this, providing the proper training at inception (and ongoing) is provided. My money would be better spent on this than that fucker who is on legal aid in prison getting $20k.

I dont often post what I really think, but this is one time I have.

Oh, and this prick that shot the police dog? Bullet in the head.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crim...n-Christchurch

If the cops were strapped I would seriously say they'd be dead right now. if your gonna shoot a strapped person you shoot to kill! There is still NO reason to strap police criminals will ALWAYS out gun them. Would you have felt better if the guy pulled the much more lethal .308 rather than the survivable .22???

[Headbanger]

That sums up my view perfectly.

ad infinitum?

I hope you watched that Jamaica Police doco the other week.

Be careful what you wish for, arming the police won't even the stakes, only raise them.

[PrincessBandit]

Be careful what you wish for, arming the police won't even the stakes, only raise them.

Sadly I have to agree. It will always be an uneven fight as crims have much more to lose by not staying ahead in the weapon race.
Wish there was an easy answer to this, but the nasty side of human nature (in both offenders and less-than-straight-cops) will always preclude any viable solution.

[BoristheBiter]

Yeah that programme makes me laugh .. the cops go in boots and all ..and what do they get? The offenders get a slap on the hand with a wet bus ticket ... Only once a programme, if that, does someone go to jail ...

But the cops aren't injured (except the one i saw biten by the dog) and thats the point.
From your post at the top
"Thirdly, the cops can't shoot ... If a cop has a gun then the safest place to be is where he's pointing it ... none of them can hit a rottie at three paces ... they shot Halatau Naitoko accidenetally when they missed a gunman at about 10 feet on the Auckland motorway ... in Napier many years ago a police offer shot at a dog across the bonnet of his car, missed the dfog and the bullet bounced of a driveway and slammed into a sitting room wall just above where a baby was sleeping ... any halfway decent hunter in this country is a better shot ... and pistols are very close range weapons - with a pistol bystanders are in even nore danger ... and bodies don't necessarily stop in human bodies ... I've seen two deer killed by one shot - straight through one and into the other ... in a city who knows where the bullet will end up ... "

So thats what maybe five cops you are talking about.
I have seen some very impressive shooting with the glocks and bushmasters and have seen some pretty shit shooting from hunters.

[Swoop]

Started a Facebook campaign for arming the police, thats what i believe needs to happen.

Unfortunately Quasi, the average policeman does not have, or will get, the same amount of training required to handle or use a firearm correctly (+ safely). Compared to Army training the fuzz are in a different league altogether.

Theres no doubt that sooner or later there going to get them anyway so why do they persist in fucking about.

Simple. Training issues.
The skills needed to use a pistol (that's what they are wanting all police armed with) take a long time to aquire and many thousands of rounds fired. This = TIME + MONEY. The police would have to spend a lot of coin on this alone, without considering the cost of the firearms involved.

... it included an SLR assault rifle (and there are thousands of them out there that our own army sold on trhe open market

At least most of them went to one source...

Thirdly, the cops can't shoot ... If a cop has a gun then the safest place to be is where he's pointing it ...

Very well said! The initial training is very breif and continuation training is a joke.

don't arm the police ... it will just make things worse ...

Once again. Perfectly stated.
Leave the average bobby with a tazer and keep AOS doing what they do.