Islamisation

[Oscar]

Ummmmm. I really don't know what to say to that Oscar. You seem to have conveniently forgotten 150+ years of New Zealand history.

Or perhaps I'm forgetting the bit where English people were invited here and then there was lengthy discussion about which would be the primary language and religion, how the land would be used, how we might structure our governance (rangatiratanga) in a way which best suited both cultural perspectives and what form of health, education, justice and social system might best reflect those perspectives too.

I'll type this slowly so you'll understand it - "English culture" (which in itself is actually many cultures) is not the only cultural input into NZ culture. NZ has taken parts of many cultures to make what we have now.

But perhaps you'd like to elucidate on the existing (pre-1840*) Maori form of health, education, justice and social systems and outline how the country would be better for imposing those systems on the population as a whole.

*It has to be pre-1840 to avoid cultural pollution form "the English".

[Banditbandit]

Grouping all Western cultures together, is in equal parts stupid and insulting.

So instead of this superior "we're so different, and you can't understand us because you have no culture" bullshit - why don't you actually tell us where the differences lie?

I didn't make that statement - I would never suggest that a group has "no culture". That's a very stupid sdtatement. And I'm sure that RustyRobot did not either.

But the answer is huge and long ... and based in a radically different worldview - not one derived from, and influenced by, the Midle Eastern-derived monotheistic religions - and by long, I mean that I teach that stuff - over three years or more ... so I'm not prepared to give you a short answer in a forum on that one.

[rustyrobot]

we're so different, and you can't understand us because you have no culture

That's almost the exact opposite of what I have been trying to say.
It's more like 'We are so absorbed in our culture that we don't realise that it IS a culture.'

[Oscar]

What do you mean by "Our Culture"?

The English forced a lot of culture change on my Scottish and Irish ancestors ... and were well practised at it by the time they gotr here to impose it on my Māori ancestors ...

That's because the English had learned from those who oppressed them.
The Normans and the Romans and the Vikings imposed their will on what ever culture they found in England at the time.

What about the Scots imposing their culture on the Irish?
Your history is very one dimensional.
Basically every culture in Europe has a beef with another...

What arrived here post 1840 were "British" immigrants, but most Kiwi's like a good moan, so they identify with the Scots & Irish.

[Oscar]

I didn't make that statement - I would never suggest that a group has "no culture". THat's a very stupid sdtatement.

I withdraw that, I had you mixed up with the other apologist.

[Banditbandit]

I'll type this slowly so you'll understand it - "English culture" (which in itself is actually many cultures) is not the only cultural input into NZ culture. NZ has taken parts of many cultures to make what we have now.

But perhaps you'd like to elucidate on the existing (pre-1840*) Maori form of health, education, justice and social systems and outline how the country would be better for imposing those systems on the population as a whole.

*It has to be pre-1840 to avoid cultural pollution form "the English".

Sheesh .. I'm trying to catch up .. just get to read and respond to page 14, to find my answers are on page 15 ..and now page 16 ...

Who suggested we should do that? That's like suggesting that the British Isle return to the political, social, education, health and justice systems of the Middle Ages. We might be colonized but we are not stupid !

Why would we want to avoid "cultural pollution" ? Only the cultural essentialists want that. What reason have myself and RustyRobot given you to think we are cultural essentialists? There have been many waves of immigrants to this country, all bringing something new and beneficial that the ihabitants have appreciated.

The difference is that they were all assimilated intro the existing populations, with, of course, subsequent culture change. When the Europeans arrived, the tipuna were welcoming and jumped into the new world witrh both feet. They wrote the Declaration of Independence and named this country New Zealand, the first use of that name in an official document which was revognised by the USA, Britain and France, and it was a Māōri doucment. There were more than 60 trading ships registered to Māori owners during the mid-1800s. They were into world trade and capitalism with both feet, shipping wheat and flour in their own ships to the Australian colonies.

But that was not to the liking of the English colonizers, who subsequently took the land and relegated my people to the working classes - they wanted farm larbourers and domestic servants. We wanted to be doctors and lawyers.

Are you surpised that we are still angry about this? The Irish have been angry for hundreds of years about what the English did to them.

[Oscar]

That's almost the exact opposite of what I have been trying to say.
It's more like 'We are so absorbed in our culture that we don't realise that it IS a culture.'

So you didn't say:

I think that most Westerners are blind to what culture is because we have such a smug superiority about our own.

Mind you, your use of the word "Westerners" is very confusing - are you speaking of white NZers or people from Western Yrup?

[Banditbandit]

That's because the English had learned from those who oppressed them.
The Normans and the Romans and the Vikings imposed their will on what ever culture they found in England at the time.

What about the Scots imposing their culture on the Irish?
Your history is very one dimensional.
Basically every culture in Europe has a beef with another...

What arrived here post 1840 were "British" immigrants, but most Kiwi's like a good moan, so they identify with the Scots & Irish.

Hang about .. "English" is a relatively modern term ... The Picts and the Jutes were probably there first, with immigant populations of Celts, Romans, saxons, Normans, heaps of others .. it was the intermingling of those groups that has created "English" or "Anglo/Saxons" ... so the "English" did not learn from the oppressors - the English as the descendents of the oppressors.

Of course, in a forum, it's pretty brief .. can't really give the broad sweep of our understandings .. and yes, the Scots were/are involved in Iereland .. but we identify with the oppressed not the oppressor ...

[Oscar]

Sheesh .. I'm trying to catch up .. just get to read and respond to page 14, to find my answers are on page 15 ..and now page 16 ...

Who suggested we should do that? That's like suggesting that the British Isle return to the political, social, education, health and justice systems of the Middle Ages. We might be colonized but we are not stupid !

Why would we want to avoid "cultural pollution" ? Only the cultural essentialists want that. What reason have myself and RustyRobot given you to think we are cultural essentialists? There have been many waves of immigrants to this country, all bringing something new and beneficial that the ihabitants have appreciated.

The difference is that they were all assimilated intro the existing populations, with, of course, subsequent culture change. When the Europeans arrived, the tipuna were welcoming and jumped into the new world witrh both feet. They wrote the Declaration of Independence and named this country New Zealand, the first use of that name in an official document which was revognised by the USA, Britain and France, and it was a Māōri doucment. There were more than 60 trading ships registered to Māori owners during the mid-1800s. They were into world trade and capitalism with both feet, shipping wheat and flour in their own ships to the Australian colonies.

But that was not to the liking of the English colonizers, who subsequently took the land and relegated my people to the working classes - they wanted farm larbourers and domestic servants. We wanted to be doctors and lawyers.

Are you surpised that we are still angry about this? The Irish have been angry for hundreds of years about what the English did to them.

Why do you always refer to "English" colonisers?
They were British - Scots, Welsh and English mainly.

Some Scots and Irish have a grievance culture that belies their economic and political dependence on the United Kingdom. Why do you suppose that the Scots have yet to vote for division? The fact that their GNP would fall by a third, maybe?

And the Irish should learn their history - one of their main initial oppressors was a Scots army led by Robert Bruce's brother.

[Oscar]

Hang about .. "English" is a relatively modern term ... The Picts and the Jutes were probably there first, with immigant populations of Celts, Romans, saxons, Normans, heaps of others .. it was the intermingling of those groups that has created "English" or "Anglo/Saxons" ... so the "English" did not learn from the oppressors - the English as the descendents of the oppressors.

Of course, in a forum, it's pretty brief .. can't really give the broad sweep of our understandings .. and yes, the Scots were/are involved in Iereland .. but we identify with the oppressed not the oppressor ...

Wrong.
Firstly, the Anglo-Saxons were another invading culture.
They gave the place it's current name and were subsequently given a kicking by the Danes and the Normans. So the English have a lot of experience with oppression.

Secondly, and as I've pointed out in another post, your beef is with the British, not the English.

[rustyrobot]

Good grief this is hard to keep up with. Great conversation though.

That's because the English had learned from those who oppressed them.
The Normans and the Romans and the Vikings imposed their will on what ever culture they found in England at the time.

What about the Scots imposing their culture on the Irish?
Your history is very one dimensional.

So, leaving aside that just because something has happened before that doesn't make it okay ("well officer, someone stole a motorbike last week, so I thought it would be okay to steal one this week"), how do the Scottish, Welsh and Irish feel about someone saying "we're all English now"?! Oh wait, you keep reminding us that it's not right. So, just perhaps we aren't all 'one New Zealand' now.

It's less one-dimensional than necessarily brief. I don't see why you get so angry, this is a great dialogue and many more like it should be had. Have you ever been on a marae Oscar? Noticed that things run a little bit differently than when you last visited a community centre or town hall?

I'll type this slowly so you'll understand it - "English culture" (which in itself is actually many cultures) is not the only cultural input into NZ culture. NZ has taken parts of many cultures to make what we have now.

But perhaps you'd like to elucidate on the existing (pre-1840*) Maori form of health, education, justice and social systems and outline how the country would be better for imposing those systems on the population as a whole.

Okay, so who was it that defined the political structures in New Zealand? It wasn't the agents of the crown? Oh wait - it was.

So what, Māori culture has to be somehow frozen in time? I don't understand your concerted effort to not try and understand the idea of Māori having a fundamentally different underlying culture which doesn't match the one which birthed the system of governance, education, justice, etc. in this country.

[Banditbandit]

But perhaps you'd like to elucidate on the existing (pre-1840*) Maori form of health, education, justice and social systems and outline how the country would be better for imposing those systems on the population as a whole.

You're assuming that there would be no change from the position negotiated 200 years ago - if it had been negotiated 200 years ago.

Of course there would have been change. Did the English invent radio/ No, but they use it.
Did they invent cars? No, but they use them.

We are not cultural essentialists. If you think we are, then we have a serious problem of misunderstanding ... Oh yeah ... that's right .. that's exactly the problem ...


What we are challenging is the power relationships that operate. They operate in a Western-dereived cultural format and are very different from Māori cultural formats.

[Edbear]

Sorry Edbear, I just don't understand the "unless you Know the scriptures" Part of your reply.... How does Knowledge of the scriptures Change the Point that was bring made.... I.e.- Don't Pick and Chose what Part of the bible you take literally, and which Parts you consider "up for Interpretation"

Exactly my point. Consistency. Don't you dare hold up their holy book and say "well this is what it says so this is exactly what they're going to do" then hold 'ours' up and say "well that's what it says but of course we don't take it literally". Of course that offering I found was selective ... as are the selective anti-Koran postings of others.

Oh, by the way. I'm an athiest but have tolerance and respect for those who do have their beliefs.

It doesn't - Edbear picks and chooses as much as the next religious man.

I don't want to risk tipping this thread into RR, but to briefly explain. Yes, the post was funny, I did see the joke. It's just that the Law was specifically given only to the Nation of Israel at the time and was not binding on any other nation, and after Christ it was replaced by Christianity as established by Jesus Christ in the 1st Cent.

The Mosaic Law was for the specific purpose of leading the nation to Christ who would redeem them from the Law and replace it with a new covenant which he established at "The Lord's Evening Meal."

So only the parts of the Law that Jesus reiterated would remain and these are found in the NT. We're no longer under the Sabbath or the clothing and food requirements, for example.

Sorry, but I'm not picking and choosing my own preferences as some would like to accuse me of, just clearing up the misinformation.

As you were...

[Bald Eagle]

They operate in a Western-dereived cultural format and are very different from Māori cultural formats.

That's because the country has been colonized. If Maori had won the land wars it would be a Maori derived cultural format wouldn't it.

[Oscar]

Good grief this is hard to keep up with. Great conversation though.



how do the Scottish, Welsh and Irish feel about someone saying "we're all English now"?!

Who said that?
I have Scots and Irish blood and I would never say that.
The reason I get wound up is when people say, the English did this or that, when they mean the British, or more correctly - people from the United Kingdom.

There are as likely as many pure blood Anglo Saxons left as there are pure blood Maoris.