We are still awaiting your list of demands.Originally Posted by Banditbandit
Perhaps releasing a few hostages would be a move in the right direction?? We want everything to end peacefully without anyone getting hurt!
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We are still awaiting your list of demands.
Perhaps releasing a few hostages would be a move in the right direction?? We want everything to end peacefully without anyone getting hurt!
TOP QUOTE: “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.”
Come warm yourself by the fire
Good to hear.
So whats your problem with the rest of us being called kiwi's / NZers?
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Anarchic Wild Child
The term "New Zealander" and "Kiwi" is favoured by right-wing men aged 45 years old ... and is used by them to privilege a mostly white version of the culture ... I think we would both disagree with their version of what the terms signify.
Personally, I don't have an issue with the terms ... I think we should recapture them from the old nasties ... but currently they generally signify a white version of New Zealand culture.
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Hardcore Biker
Which is the entire point of me attempting to contribute to this conversation.
Is it possible that there is some small point of agreement we could make.
Say... pre-european the different Māori iwi had cultures of their own. This included religious beliefs, social beliefs, environmental beliefs, quite firm ideas about the organisation of familial and class structures, acceptable and non-acceptable practices - and ways of dealing with breaches of those protocols. They also had certain dances, songs, food stuffs and preparations.
The peoples who came from various parts around Europe, mostly Britons, brought with them their own sets of beliefs around the same. They had various religious, environmental, familial and class beliefs of their own. Some were more dominant as they were those enjoyed by the ruling classes. These people too had songs, dances, food stuffs and preparation rites of their own.
You are right in that I have no idea who you are or where you are from. You haven't offered the information, and really I was talking in a generalised way, so your specific situation wasn't intended to be the focal point. Help me shatter my misconception.
At the root of it though, I fail to see how anyone can miss the fact that the systems in place in New Zealand now were built upon the cultural ideals of the colonising peoples.
WELLINGTON: Tag-o-rama
Come warm yourself by the fire
I really think you should ask more people about this. As you are basing this on what YOU think.
The rest of the world doesn't feel the same as you.
There are very few right-wing white 45 year olds in NZ.
To me the term Kiwi is quite simple - someone from NZ. That little country in the Pacific which stands out on its own. Kiwi culture is what you feel here. From hugging Tane Mahuta to going to the shop to get the milk and lollies.
God no wonder we have a country pride problem.
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Hardcore Biker
Yes, I clearly did say that. How could we have a smug superiority about our culture if we didn't have one? I said it again as: "We are so absorbed in our culture that we don't realise that it IS a culture". The majority of people seem to see culture as something other people have, or do. They see what we do as 'normal' (in the way of birthday celebrations, family organisation, work relationships, funereal observances, eating customs, etc), and therefore not a specific set of cultural practices.
The thrust of my arguement is that these cultural ideas underlie all of the decisions made about how organisations and social structures are organised, so in that way, those organisations and structures represent those beliefs.
We don't have a 'normal' justice system, we have one which reflects the cultural norms of the people who created that justice system, and I bet there were few if any Māori people involved in that. Likewise the education, health, local councils, etc. There were probably also very few poor people, chinese people, disabled people, women and young people involved in the initial formation of those structures.
I thought the use of the term Westerners was quite common? It even has a wikipedia entryI use the term to denote those people who are from the Western-World, the Occident. I will try and find a word which better reflects the political-religious-cultural norms I am trying to suggest.
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Anarchic Wild Child
Good luck. Trying to find one that won't offend someone is nearly impossible.
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Come warm yourself by the fire
I was born in Dunedin, my father is from Turangi and my mother from Taumaranui.
I grew up wherever dad got work (miner/tunneller), but a large proportion was spent in Waihi Beach and Katikati.
Being in a typical lower working class family - my father worked with many Maori, among others. His philosophy was simple - he would work with anyone who would work with him. I carried this philosophy with me - which unfortunately made me bias not on race, but against those who do not want to help themselves.
Upon moving to Auckland - I had my misconceptions shattered again, as multicultural became not just English, South African, Maori and of course Pakeha (yes English does not equal Pakeha) to include more Asian (India to Indonesia and everything inbetween), American, Canadian, Russian (including all old republics).......
But by simply falling back to my morals - I still kept making friends. I will befriend anyone, regardless of race.
I will work with anyone who will work with me.
Many of these individuals I met have adopted so much NZ culture, that it seems stupid to call them anything but Kiwi.
And what makes you think that only Maori are against this?
Surely a wise move would be to gain support from all cultures against these ideas.
I mean shit man, my surname basically translates into slave in english. What makes you think I would want to protect them?
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Come warm yourself by the fire
Lets see, if you mean that we follow the "Westerner" political-religious-cultural norms, then westerner is the right word.
Of course if you talking about NZ based political-religious-cultural norms, try using the term kiwi for size
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Anarchic Wild Child
That came from work done around the last census and whether or not people should be able to record trheir ethnicity as "New Zealander" and subsequent research around that issue. It might take me a while to find it ...
We have no pride in our country because .. well just listen to the Ozzie National Anthem .. Advance Australia Fair .... and ours ? God Help Us ... (God Defend New Zealand)
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Come warm yourself by the fire
Ah yes - but that makes something like 1/8th of NZ of Jedi faith
So perhaps if anyone here knows of any:
- 45
- Right wing
- "NZ'r"
- Of Jedi faith
Perhaps they could now contribute to the conversation and tell me why I should believe that the only use of the terms "Kiwi" or "NZ'r" are for just the white collar man.
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Hardcore Biker
And so it should be.
Did I say you would? I think I was generalising again. Apologies.
I know it's not just Māori, the majority of my friends are also against this claiming of westerner culture as 'kiwi' culture. I guess it is that forced associating of kiwi with New Zealand flavoured (i.e. pavlova, marmite and kiwifruit) westerner culture that prevents it from sitting easily with me.
Perhaps the leap I have made in error is assuming that all these people who might say 'we are all one' or 'we are all new zealanders', are also the type who add - so you have to assimilate to be like me.
I think that a lot of the people who most desperately feel the need for a strong NZ/kiwi culture to identify with are those who feel alienated from their own historical cultural traditions.
I mean, by your definition avgas, an indonesian muslim who wants a hard-line islamic government in New Zealand can be considered a kiwi if they are living here. Or a cuban communist who wants an end to the global capitalist hegemony but happens to have been born in Ekatahuna. Or my nan (who was actually born in London) and can't pronounce a word of Māori correctly. I just wonder how that's going to sit with the flag waving 45 year old Jedis?
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Anarchic Wild Child
You fail to understand that they would not understand the question ... they think that everyone is a New Zealander (right) and that everyone should be like them (wrong) .. see RustyRobot's response above .. says it all
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Along for the ride...
Seriously, I dont believe that there is any culture in the world that did not suffer hardships under their colonisers - be they Spanish, English or French.
The thinking at the time was VERY racist, regarding all non-citizens of colonial powers as pretty much sub-human. The hangover of that colonial arrogance resulted in the racist tendencies that led to apartheid, and the treatment of black people as close to slaves well into the 20th century. That same attitude was seen in India, the attitude towards blacks in America, and in the way that Aborigines were treated in Australia.
The thinking at the time (and it should be taken in the context of a world at the time where "might is right") was that if the other cultures did not have the technology (read gunpowder and ships) to win, they deserved to be slaves. As I say I dont know NZ history very well, but from the sounds of it, the Maori's got away relatively unscathed compared to some...
But times have moved on, and people have become more sophisticated, and SHOULD be able to see that other cultures can offer more than just technology (such as different world views). It is the information age, and new ways of thinking are as important as new technologies.
Might is no longer right, people of a multitude of descendants have now found themselves as citizens of the ex-colonies, who now call it "home" and just as Pakeha kiwis should recognise that all cultures (not just westernised culture) have a place, so should Maori's recognise that New Zealand culture is no longer either English or Maori, but a melting pot of all.
The only rule should be one of tolerance.
The one thing man learns from history is that man does not learn from history
Calvin and Hobbes: The surest sign of intelligent life out there is that it has not tried to contact us.
Its easier to apologise than ask for permission.
Wise words:
Come warm yourself by the fire
Hopefully it will get right up their nose.I mean, by your definition avgas, an indonesian muslim who wants a hard-line islamic government in New Zealand can be considered a kiwi if they are living here. Or a cuban communist who wants an end to the global capitalist hegemony but happens to have been born in Ekatahuna. Or my nan (who was actually born in London) and can't pronounce a word of Māori correctly. I just wonder how that's going to sit with the flag waving 45 year old Jedis?
Note the name is voluntary - just like coming here.
Its not a "select-whom-you-feel-fits" society like others.
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