Invite - 2nd protest against police pursuits today

[davereid]

If we ask ourselves the question "Why do they flee", the answer is simple. We have given them motive to flee, with high penalties, roadside confiscation etc etc.

We have compounded that problem by not catching enough of those that do flee. Every time one has evaded the police, his mana amongst his peer group grows. His story is repeated while the story of those that did not get away is forgotten.

The penalty for failure to stop is irrelevant.

Take drivers licence away ? Too late. already gone.

Impound car and crush it ? They will find a way to buy or steal a new one long time before they pay the fine and crusher fees on the old one.

Lock them up ? Even jail crazy USA can only manage to lock up driving offenders for 1/20th of their sentence.

The reality is that the fleeing driver if he is rational expects he will get away. If he is irrational it does not matter what he thinks.

So changes to the way we treat drivers who flee is not going to be effective.

We blew it when we gave them a motive to flee, without increasing our ability to catch them.

This particular cat has learned that we find it hard to herd him, and the more we hurt him when we catch him, the more incentive he has to flee.

As our new dogs are no faster than the old ones, he will continue to flee until convinced he can't get away.

This creates for us the quandary, that if we do not chase, he will continue to run. If we do chase, the carnage will continue.

My bet ?

We will continue to chase. We will increase penalties, completely ineffectively, but increasing motive not to stop.

The carnage will continue, as only the fleeing driver gets to choose to end it.

Then we will lose a family, a small school bus, or a church group. And then we will end chases.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Helicopters can't actually stop a pursuit. Their power comes from the fact that the fleeing motorist is convinced before the chase begins, that he cannot get away.

Would increasing the number of motorcycle cops help ? While a motorcycle cop can't stop a fleeing motorist, it will easily follow one.

The cat may learn that the new dog can easily catch him.

[Indiana_Jones]

If you want to blame someone - blame the person who made the decision to run from the cops. It was their decision to endanger both themselves and others at the point of making that decision.

What the fuck?

Taking personal responsibility?

That's just not the generation Y-bother way....

-Indy

[marty]

When I was 16 years old I got chased by the fuzz on my Suzuki GT380, cause I was speeding

At the time of the pursuit I actually thought the unmarked HQ Holden was a civilian vehicle, no lights or siren, I thought it was a drag (really, I was 16 years old).

Anyway, after we had been at this for about 10 minutes including 160km/hr on the motorway, he peeled off after I failed to make a bend, ending up riding on the footpath via a driveway, doing about 80km/hr at the time of going on to the footpath, near Turners Auctions in Penrose. Then back on the road, it was like a friggin action movie

Got home, phone rang, come down to station, locked in a holding room and dressed down big time. One of the most stupid things I have ever done ever, but I didnt know the pursuer was a cop, and I was 16 years old, still a child to my family who would have missed me.

I could have easily died that day.

so that wasn't a chase. it was a race. quite different. mindset is different

[marty]

How do you catch them first or second round, if you can't chase them?

I'm still waiting for the OP's words of wisdom on this too....

[Bass]

Helicopters can't actually stop a pursuit. Their power comes from the fact that the fleeing motorist is convinced before the chase begins, that he cannot get away.

Would increasing the number of motorcycle cops help ? While a motorcycle cop can't stop a fleeing motorist, it will easily follow one.

The cat may learn that the new dog can easily catch him.

Now you're talking!!!
I actually don't have a problem with runners erasing themselves. They put me and mine at seriously increased extra risk and I don't like that. So if they are wiped out, there would seem to be some Karma working there and probably an increase in the national average IQ as well. (Gene-O-Kleen as Ixion used to put it, evolution you can see)
So...... what if we gave the cops a few A 10's or Apaches?
A few kilos of depleted uranium arriving at several thousand feet per second and the problem goes away - just vapourises really.
Now there's an incentive not to run!


Redneck?????? Me????? Never!!!!

[Pixie]

A wise man once said: "the definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different result".

I would add to this observation: "repeating the same action with increasing frequency and expecting a reduction in the same result".

I guess our authorities must be insane



Actually,when you think about it the morons who run and crash are often seen wandering around in the aftermath with looks of astonishment that something actually went wrong with their wonderful escape plan - that is if they are still conscious.
And,similarly,as we saw in Christchurch, the chasing cop is so shocked that his plan to chase and stop the terrible criminal has resulted in the death,regardless of who is to blame, of two bystanders that his boss has to get on TV and tell us the cop in question is devastated.....Or the cop in Waikato who killed the following motorcyclist is devastated.......or the cop on the west coast who took out the two following motorcyclists is devastated.......or the cop that removed the leg of the rider on SH2 is devastated.

Oh dear.Such devastation.Who would want to be a traffic cop?

[shrub]

If we ask ourselves the question "Why do they flee", the answer is simple. We have given them motive to flee, with high penalties, roadside confiscation etc etc.

Very well put, the outcome of stopping is a shitload of money and possibly your license, the outcome of running is quite possibly escaping unscathed. I can see why people do it.

[shrub]

A wise man once said: "the definition of insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different result".

I would add to this observation: "repeating the same action with increasing frequency and expecting a reduction in the same result".

I guess our authorities must be insane

I know our authorities are insane

[candor]

I'm still waiting for the OP's words of wisdom on this too....

The answer is given earlier I think. You flag some by just not pursuing it with minor issues, and for those where pursuit is necessary as the imminent peril ON BEST SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE (not Police snap judgement calls) matches the peril that would be created by a chase eg violent offenders then you employ tech where possible like the new star chase system that GW kindly posted links to. Good news there about the Kapiti repeat offender program too.

Is $'s best spent on starchase or anpr or a comprehensive ingnition interlock program or drug testing or on jail for police evaders...

Whoever said I'm trying to rally bikers because I feel they are antiestablishment - it was an invite to people I thought may be road safety supporters. Noone had to agree with my take, an adult discussion a la Dave Reid would be nice.

But my object is not to see cops catch every bugger based on some premise opf social decay if they don't - its to minimise loss of life from attempts at that - I'm a bad egg I know but it seems some see my point (including some pilars of the establishment who're now in touch).
Thats not antiestablishment to want to see Police operate as effectively as they can in fulfilling their vow to protect life. It's pro. Police don't bust all pot smokers but issue bulk warnings and society hasn't fallen - same with minor traffic offenders - ignoring them or later follow up has been found to work best for social order (less crashes) overseas.

I will get to posting some links as promised later today but pressed for time right now.

[candor]

Apparently Welly is an asylum of sorts, they told me. Wow I got more bad rep in one day than in several years onsite!

[BoristheBiter]

Apparently Welly is an asylum of sorts, they told me. Wow I got more bad rep in one day than in several years onsite!

That's because your idea is from so far up your arse it should have never seen the light of day.

[BoristheBiter]

.


Helicopters can't actually stop a pursuit. Their power comes from the fact that the fleeing motorist is convinced before the chase begins, that he cannot get away.

Would increasing the number of motorcycle cops help ? While a motorcycle cop can't stop a fleeing motorist, it will easily follow one.

The cat may learn that the new dog can easily catch him.

I'm glad i finished reading that post.
I think that is the first proper idea to come from this thread.

[scissorhands]

Cops on bikes could be rammed though....

[Kornholio]

Cops on bikes could be rammed though....

And U-turned in front of... wouldn't that be one for the books

[candor]

Can't find direct links for some stuff, would need to scan print copies

Red mist topic reference (one of many available)
A factorial analysis of police pursuit driving decisions: A research note 1
Author: Geoffrey P. Alperta
http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/con...ent=a718869738
Shows Police underemphasize safety factors in decisions around chases as offence level rises

Pursuits risks (in all common classes of chase) are found to outweigh pursuit benefits safety wise.
Robert E. Crew, Robert A. Hart, (1999) "Assessing the value of police pursuit", Policing: An International Journal of Police Strategies & Management, Vol. 22 Iss: 1, pp.58 - 74
http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journa...2271&show=html

Researchers find that an informed public is less likely to accept pursuits
Public attitudes toward police pursuit driving
John M. MacDonalda and Geoffrey P. Alpertb, Department of Criminal Justice and Criminology University of Maryland 2220 LeFrak Hall College Park,
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...e&searchtype=a

A Qsld report drawing on suchlike as above just recommended policy overhaul, including no pursuits of suspected drunk or drug drivers and no pursuits without evidence versus suspicion of (serious) non traffic crime. At a 0.144 pursuit crash risk suspected impaired drivers are among the most risky to chase, other traffic offenders are among the most likely to crash if chased also (Crew et al, Minne 1995).

Pursuits for suspected impaired driving end in crashes 48% of the time (Auten 1994). One pursuit of a DUI suspect puts 100’s of lives at risk due to added speed and adrenalin experts comment. Their odds of crashing are greatly increased versus on any non pursuit trip as statistically it’s neither likely or probable that each event of driving under influence will end in a crash.

Prof Ross Homel, says police inadvertently provoke young unlicensed drivers to flee. Chris Bult, former head of the NSW police driver training school, says: "Police do get excited. There is a thing we call the red mist where common sense quite often goes out of the window." On the other side – studies of runners have established that they don’t intend stopping until they are safe – defined as being out of reach of apprehension.

One killer runner the misnomed Saviour Falzon, told the court that the pressure of the chase meant he did not know he was approaching an intersection. "I was accelerating the whole time because the police kept going faster and faster, so I kept going to get away from them" (Media report).

OUR KIWI LETHAL PURSUITS ARE OVERWHEALMINGLY UNNECESSARY AS THEY RELATE TO PUBLIC SACRIFICES OVER TRIVIA;

“during the five years to 19 December 2008... 24 people died in Police pursuits, 90 resulted in serious injury. Most of the pursuits were started over traffic offending, though 31 were started over known or suspected criminal offending (mostly car conversion and other property offences). Relatively few pursuits uncovered evidence of serious crimes other than those associated with the offender's driving during the pursuit.” (Justice Goddard, IPCA report 2009)

Literate and suable Police are increasingly against pursuit culture AS EVIDENCE SINKS IN

In St. Louis County only a serious felony can trigger a high-speed chase, If someone is DUI, police give the driver a wide berth. Police there also say "We would rather let a stolen car go than take the risk of someone getting killed." (Cincinatti Post).

Evidence based safer places with no chases over traffic sins are discussed at length in Goddards report which I cite in rest of this post below the linkhttp://www.ipca.govt.nz/Site/media/2...ts-Review.aspx

Police in Victoria, Canada in 2007 adopted a policy restricting pursuits to situations where there were reasonable grounds to believe the driver or passenger of a vehicle “has committed, or is about to commit a serious criminal offence involving the imminent the threat of grievous bodily harm or death to any person”. The policy explicitly prohibited pursuits when the offence was solely a traffic or property crime. Several United States jurisdictions also restrict pursuits to very serious and/or violent offending. One Australian state does not permit pursuits over traffic offences.

When ‘violent offender only’ policies are introduced, there is a dramatic fall in the number of pursuits and pursuit‐related injuries and fatalities, but no corresponding increase in crime or vehicle offending rates (for example, Alpert, 1997; Oakland Police Review Board, 2004; Homel, 1994).
(Source of prior paras - Goddard report)

Educated crash victims or bereaved victims round the world are campaigning for no pursuits over traffic offences or stolen cars - this means we're not freaks (will find links another day if anyone cares).

Finally this is a good issue map but I can't find a link
57 Mercer L. Rev. 511 (2005-2006)
Police Pursuits: A Comprehensive Look at the Broad Spectrum of Police Pursuit Liability and Law; O'Connor, Patrick T.; Norse, William L. Jr.